Janet writes:
Please be patient. I know nothing about the internal workings of cars. Is there a difference between a head gasket and valve cover gasket or valve gasket cover? My mechanic tells me my head gasket is leaking slightly and needs to be watched: I was down 1/2 gallon of coolant since August. Back in 2008 a different mechanic replaced the valve cover gasket (or valve gasket cover?) because the car was hesitating and running rough: I had tried Dry Gas thinking it was a bad tank of gas but that did not alleviate the problem.
Are we talking about 2 different parts? Would you please explain the function(s)? Is it/are they visible when I open the hood of my car? Thank you.
Sajeev Answers:
Yes, they are two different gaskets: the head gasket is between the engine block and the cylinder head. That is a VERY important gasket because oil, coolant and engine compression (one of the cycles in a four stroke motor) are dependent on this gasket making a perfect seal.
The Valve cover gasket is just a gasket for the valve cover, which “covers” the top of the cylinder head. This rarely (never?) fixes problems pertaining to hesitations or rough running, it only keeps oil in the motor. So the mechanic is probably right, sounds like you have a bad head gasket. Now please tell me the make/model of the car, that determines it’s long-term value. If this is a Ford Taurus with the head gasket munching 3.8L V6, kiss it goodbye. A similar vintage Toyota Camry? Fix and love for years to come. Odds are you either need a new motor, new head gasket (a lot of labor, depending on vehicle) or its time to sell and buy something else.
Janet Replies:
Thank you so much for responding to me personally. I never expected such service. My car is a 2000 Subaru Outback Wagon with about 150,000 miles on it. I just put $1200 into it replacing power steering rack, tie rods, CV boot. What will happen if the car develops a blown head gasket? I drive 2 hours to Pennsylvania once a month. Am I in danger? It doesn’t sound like the car is safe.
Sajeev Answers:
When it comes to good service, remember you get what you pay for: I cannot fix a toasted head gasket from my laptop! Now that Piston Slap is occupying more of my spare time, I’ve seen a disturbing (non-scientific) number of engine failures in Subarus. Some are because of owner stupidity, others are a bad design.
Who knows (or cares) how your problem came to fruition. Because the fix is labor intensive, painful on your wallet considering a mechanic’s hourly shop rate. My advice is to dump it soon; most Subarus from the past 10 years are challenging, complicated money pits relative to a Honda/Toyota counterpart. Fine if you know how to fix it, rather expensive if you do not. Though this Subaru already blew the gasket (because it burns coolant) it isn’t bad enough to leave you stranded…yet. Read this older Piston Slap because the question posed is relevant to your situation.
Janet Replies:
I appreciate your honest, albeit painfully, blunt opinion. My car must be the exception. It hasn’t caused me problems over these past 10 years – except for routine maintenance. I will go talk to the mechanic about the car’s future. Buying another car right now doesn’t fit too well financially. Thank you for your help.
Sajeev Replies:
Head gasket repairs on boxer motors are tough on your wallet. And while I expect you’ll be happy with a fresh set of gaskets, a 10-year-old car is a money pit, no matter who makes it. I am more than okay with this, but only for mainstream cars, or for people who don’t shy away from turning a wrench. I am not sure this is a wise choice for you, Janet.
But I get it: you are vested in this machine. Plus, Subarus are fun and quirky. If the finances aren’t there right now, I’d fix it, enjoy, and sell when things look better. And maybe buy a car that’s more cost effective to service next time, even if it is a boring Camry.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
Wow, I can’t believe Metha actually recommended someone buy a Camry. (I kid I kid.) Does there seem to be an age or mileage where gasket failures seem to be common for most manufacturers?
From all these Piston Slaps involving Subarus it seems to be ~10 years/100K for them. Looking at Acura Legends a lot of them started developing it around 100K. Ford 3.8s as soon as it drives off the lot, and 4.2s seem to do it around 150-200K (AKA right when the work trucks get retired). Any iron block/head GM motor will eat its gasket buffet at some point it seems (Deathcool never helped that though). Northstars seem to be reliable enough in fleet use, and they’re not as unreliable in regular use as they’re made out to be.
I just mentally substituted “Camry” for “Panther” when reading the text and everything felt normal again, Dan.
I have a couple of friends who are happy in older Camrys, or any CamCords in general. And I’ve dealt with a couple of dying 3.8L Ford products. And some funky cracking intake problem on 3.8L GM products. So I’m not THAT much of a one trick pony, thankyaverymuch.
(But Panther Love and LS1-FTW)
I just put $1200 into it replacing power steering rack, tie rods, CV boot…. It hasn’t caused me problems over these past 10 years – except for routine maintenance.
Forgive me if I have trouble understanding what people mean by “routine maintenance”. I wasn’t aware that replacing a steering rack was considered routine…
A steering rack is a wear item. It will eventually need replacement.
The 2.5L (EJ25) motor in the Outbacks and Legacys are notorious for munching head gaskets if the coolant has not been changed every 30k miles. Subaru sells a specific “Coolant Conditioner” that is now required if you have this fluid change service performed at a dealership.
The primary reason that this repair is so costly is because all of the labor functions happen twice (because there are two heads). If the car has not been driven with failed head gaskets or overheated at any point, you can usually get away with just replacing the gaskets and calling it good. However, if the car got too hot, the heads usually need to be machined, which adds a substantial amount of cost.
Has the timing belt been changed in this car yet? If not (and the car has not been overheated), I would strongly suggest having this done at the same time as the head gaskets to save big money on labor costs.
A blown head gasket will only get worse, and will eventually destroy the motor when it overheats. Keep a gallon of pre-mixed coolant in the car at all times until you have it fixed, and closely monitor the coolant level in the overflow tank.
The 1996-2002 2.5 liter Subarus were the ones with the head gasket issues. 2003+ 4 cylinder Subarus don’t usually have this issue.
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/88-head-gasket-issues/
And for all those howling about Subaru maintenance, look at an Audi forum sometime. Those things are absolutely tragic. The only part of the car that doesn’t have immense issues is the Quattro AWD system.
The OP’s car is a 2000 Outback. I stand by my comment.
Been there, done that, didn’t get a T-shirt but I got free pen with the repair. My mechanic posted a good article on this issue:
http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gasket-problems-explained/
(I highly recommend All Wheel Drive Auto in Kirkland to anyone needing Scooby service in the Seattle area.)
In short, a poor original design for the head gasket is to blame and the newer parts should be reliable. The coolant conditioner is “mechanic in a can” designed to stop the deterioration of a marginal head gasket. The problem is, it can also clog heater cores, especially after you dump a few cans in.
If your engine has not cooked itself yet, consider the repair even if you do not qualify for extended warranty coverage. But find a good specialist that loves and understands Scoobies. A good shop will go over every step with you and give you a detailed quote. After the job, you won’t be charged for anything that wasn’t on the quote, and they mechanic will go over the box of old parts with you so you see exactly where your money went. They will also pay close attention to your car at the next few oil changes to make sure that things are working properly.
When I learned that my 2000 2.5RS had a tiny head gasket leak, I opted for the repair. As others have pointed out you may has well have some other things done too, since you’re already paying for a lot of labor that exposes other components. So I also got a new clutch, water pump, thermostat, timing belt and idlers, all new hoses… plus some Group N engine mounts and a lightened crank pulley. And a short shifter, stiffer shifter bushings, and stiffer bushings for some suspension components. Hey, why not?
Now my 10 year old EJ25 should be pretty bullet proof, and the car drives better than the day I got it thanks to a few cheap and conservative performance upgrades.
I would have preferred not to have spent the money, but I love the car. Its lifetime maintenance cost has not been bad. Prior to the head gasket issue the only problem the car ever had was a coil pack.
1. Bad valve cover gaskets can and do cause hesitation and rough running because it is part of the crankcase ventilation system. Bad gasket admits air causing problems and ususally a check engine light.
2 Her mechanic says to “watch” the head gasket? Really? If a bad head gasket is left too long, it can wear a path in the metal between cylinders. Then you have real problems, because you have to have it heliarced, and resurfaced. Fix it NOW!
3. To the OP: find a new mechanic, have the car repaired, and either keep it or sell it. It is a paperweight as it now sits.
4. Car is not reliable to drive with this head gasket problem. It can overheat at any time, and will then be REALLY expensive to fix.
1. Well said. I shoulda clarified: a hesitation problem usually comes from other sources, usually tune up or engine control related. EGR, Idle Air Control, MAF sensors, bad vacuum lines, etc.
Something you might want to look into, Subaru made an additive “fix” for people to put into their coolant that helped the head gasket problem that many Subarus were having. It sounds like in your particular case it’s too late, but I would go to the Subaru dealer and at least try it before I dumped the car.
https://www.subaruonlineparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=63&products_id=1215&osCsid=53d867ef0ec970b19ba216163ba868e0
Mentioned in my post above. It’s a coolant conditioner, not a “head gasket fix in a bottle”. Once the gasket is toast, the only corrective action is to replace them.
krazykarguy,
I didn’t see your post above, my point though was it’s at least worth a shot (especially since the mechanic said to “just keep an eye on it”) To me that doesn’t sound like a full blown head gasket.
The coolant conditioner is basically just a another version of a Bar’s Head Gasket Repair in a Subaru bottle.
Aside from HG issue, these 2000+ legacys are pretty much bullet-proof.
If Janet’s car does not have rust and everything works well, I’d say – fix it and keep it. Do the timing belt at the same time as it has to come off anyway. And I guess spark plugs have never been changed too.
And then enjoy it for another 100K if you want.
As for 10 year old cars being a money pit, you’d better make the picture more clear, sir – one thing is a 10-year old plumber’s van and another – some well cared Sunday driver / garage queen.
Define well cared for: because if typical wear items (which still exist on modern cars) were replaced on a regular basis, it’s far less of a pit and more of a gradual drain. Not a bad thing, provided people understand that cars still need your money after the monthly payments go away.
Also, if she does the timing belt, be sure to do the tensioners as well. These are often overlooked and can go bad before the “new” belt does.
Also, note that a car payment very rapidly meets then exceeds the “money pit” in cost. You get to drive a new car, yes, but at the cost of $500/month. You can do an awful lot of maintenance and stay well under $6000/year. Even at a shop using “book” rates.
@Sajeev
Well cared – as a minimum: regular oil/filter changes, wheel alignment from time to time, no signs of neglect or abuse. Interior vacuumed at least once or twice a year, no signs of “pigs to the market” delivery service. No terrible and obvious clunking from suspension, dry, leaks-free engine, clear PS and brake fluids.
It is difficult to judge without seeing a car, though.
And sorry for being somewhat ignorant about monthly payments, as I never bought a new car (and never will) and I always bought for cash – anywhere from 800 to 20,000 (another psychological barrier for me).
I’m fascinated by the idea that a 10 year old car is a money pit. This may have been true years ago, but for newer cars I think it’s nonsense. Yes there are more repairs than on a new car, but once you compare those repairs against car payments, higher car tax, higher insurance rates, etc. a 10 year old car comes out much cheaper.
Look at this situation, she just spent $1200 for the prior repairs, figure another $1500 for head gaskets(pessimistic) and she is into the car for $2700 this year. That would be the same as a $225/month car payment for the year. If you average it across multiple years (depending on how long she’s had it and how long since it’s been paid off) it gets even cheaper.
As an example. My girlfriend’s ’99 Saturn is due for struts all around, new front rotors, belt & tuneup. Plus she wants a new stereo with MP3 capable CD player. We’re looking at $1000+ being sunk into it, but that still puts us $1000-2000 up on a new car down payment, not to mention the monthly payments, and add to that she’d need full coverage insurance vs basic liability. We end up far enough ahead we could replace the Saturn 1-2 times over with the money we save just this year.
That would be the same as a $225/month car payment for the year.
I guess the issue is if you could spend an extra $100 a month and be able to drive a new reliable car that might make sense.
Rubber wears out over time. Shocks leak, or gum up. Springs get fatigued. Some vehicles and owners have no problem with the gradual degredation of these parts, but the fact remains – 10 year old cars become a money pit.
But its a worthwhile money pit if you plan on keeping it another 10 years and want a safe and LIKE NEW vehicle.
Except as I said it isn’t just $100/mth. It is also a down payment, higher car insurance & higher car taxes. Also the repairs could realistically be averaged across multiple years if the car has been as reliable as she says and would be even less “per month”.
I’m definitely in the camp of it being a smart investment to keep an older car running than buying a new one, but then again, I can do a lot of the work myself. I’d also only say this for reliable makes (mainly Japanese) However, if I was someone who knew nothing about car repair, I’d say your better off just buying a new(er) car and saving yourself the headache.
But just to compare prices, to get the head gasket replaced is probably around $1,500 at a shop. A new Subaru like this one is probably at least $25,000 to buy new. The sales tax alone in my state would be $2,500 for that purchase, and that’s not even adding in the much higher car payments, depreciation, interest for the loan, higher insurance, dealer fees, etc.
I know it gets frustrating to put money into an older car, but if you really examine the numbers, it’s almost always far cheaper than buying new.
Except as I said it isn’t just $100/mth. It is also a down payment, higher car insurance & higher car taxes.
True. But, even if it was $500 a month extra , that can certainly be a worthwhile trade off compared with having to deal with a car that tends to leave you stranded. And, it’s not only the stranding, it’s the towing, the rental cars, the bumming rides of friends and co-workers, the calling you boss or clients and telling them your late again, etc. etc.
Sajeev: How is a 10 year old car a “money pit” if it is cheaper to own and run than a new car? That is the part I’m having trouble understanding about your statement.
@Pixel: I don’t like the phrase Money Pit, but we as a society use it so regularly that I wound up using it. It *is* the definitive phrase to explain when a car has outlived its usefulness. Or when people believe this to be the case.
But a MP is a new car, considering deprecation. Old cars (in general) are Time Pits, taking one away from work/home/etc. And if you don’t have mechanical skills and/or a honest mechanic, the money aspect is indeed relevant. But that said, the element of time (and its effect on earning money) is precisely why we call older cars money pits.
How much money do you lose when your car keeps you away from work? Even if its not that much, the mere fact it happens is terrifying to many people.
Sajeev,
I definitely agree with your assessment of older cars turning into a “time pit”. Even though I’ve saved a lot of money, I’m getting to the point where I would just rather take the hit with a new car and have the spare weekends to spend with my family instead of wrenching. If you have the means, it makes life much simpler, I’m just a huge tightwad.
“True. But, even if it was $500 a month extra , that can certainly be a worthwhile trade off compared with having to deal with a car that tends to leave you stranded.”
Tell that to all the VW owners who have had their DSG control units crap out when the cars are only a couple years old. Sure, warranty covers them but you’re still stuck with being stranded and having to get a service loaner from the VW dealer.
http://www.my-gti.com/832/volkswagen-dsg-mechatronic-control-unit
Sam,
Obviously, if they wanted a reliable car they wouldn’t have gone with a VW.
As cars age the mean time between failure increases – that’s just the way it is.
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/consumer-reports-car-reliability-charts.html
Even a 10 year old Honda or Toyota will have 10x the failure rate as a new vehicle.
How much money do you lose when your car keeps you away from work? Even if its not that much, the mere fact it happens is terrifying to many people.
– This is why I have two money pits in my driveway and a garage full of bikes
@JMO
“Even a 10 year old Honda or Toyota will have 10x fix rate”.
Stop shopping for salvages or beating crap out of your motors, sir. And you’ll see how much brighter your prospects are.
Even with 300K+ (km) SAABs I never had 10 times as many problems as with new ones.
A couple of years back I had a Mercedes 400E, c.1992 – in 50kmiles had 0 problems. Same goes for a long line of other cars that are notoriously unreliable. Or should have been so.
Only one car (SAAB 900 T16 Aero) was labour-intensive, but I bought it for 150 bucks, so I knew what I was getting into.
A couple of years back I had a Mercedes 400E, c.1992 – in 50kmiles had 0 problems.
Your anecdotes are almost meaningless. You need to link to some data.
I had a friend who went 12 years and 180k miles with a late 90’s Land Rover Discovery and had 0 problems. Despite that one anecdotal example, the fact remains that a late 90’s Discovery is a very unreliable vehicle.
First of all. Check with Subaru of North America about extended warranty coverage for head gaskets. A 2000 model was covered, although it may have been for 8 years. We had to change the gaskets on our 2005 Outback despite careful routine maintenance. Subaru requested copies of 30k, 60k, and 90k service records, then denied us the warranty because the 2005’s are not covered. Just ’98 -’03 I think. The bill was around $1500, including a new timing belt. The car had about 98k at the time.
As others have said, do the timing belt while you are in there. When it needs changing (every 105k), you’ll be doing half of this job over again.
I would repair it, as that is cheaper than a new one, although I would plan on a new one in 2 – 3 years, or when the rust comes.
Depending on which phase of EJ25 engine it is, it’ll be an internal leak, or an external leak. Seeing how Janet has a MY 2000 Subaru, it probably has a Phase 2 SOHC engine. These are much easier to replace than the DOHC engine.
If maintenance intervals were followed by Subaru guidelines, you may have gotten a lot more miles out of the engine by adding Subaru’s coolant additive. Most people have no idea that Subaru recommends using the additive, but it does help them last much longer.
http://www.scoobymods.com/wwp-99-phase-ii-2-t2993.html?t=2993
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488157
Still, 150k for the original gaskets, that’s not too bad really. I’d reckon a competent local mechanic could do this with the engine still in the car for less than a grand easily.
Janet – First I suggest heading over to http://www.subaruoutback.org/ and read up there, and or post your questions there. You will get opinions from people who are much more familiar with your supergoo. I’ve found that site very helpful as a past Outback owner.
The 2000 Outback 2.5L I believe is still the phase I boxer. Yes it’s common for head gaskets to fail. A bit expensive to fix (as are all Subaru repairs), but other than that it’s a very good car. (I had a 96 with the rock solid 2.2L) If you like the car, fix it and keep going. Get AAA for towing if your worried about the long drives.
FYI, smewhere around 01 or 02 they went to the phase II boxer which was slightly better. HGs would fail with an external leak instead of an internal leak. After 05 they seem to have changed something again, and the engines are better still.
Don’t drive with a blown head gasket. Get it fixed.
As far as Subaru reliablity, from what I’ve read (between many car blogs and magazines) they seem to fall somewhere behind Honda and Toyota. But #3 ain’t bad. It’s just that repair costs do tend to be high.
As a side note, I sold my old 96 Outback for a “reliable” Toyota Matrix, and have grown to REALLY regret that decision. I’m now eying used Subarus. (If you want some fun google “Toyota Matrix manual transmission bearing failure” … yeah, Toyota reliability.)
As for the much maligned Ford 3.8, I’ve had 2. Both bought used VERY cheaply, both ate head gasets at somewhere around 70K mi, not “right off the dealer lot”. In both cases my local Ford dealer fixed them for free (can’t complain about that!). They were decent cars. They needed the occasional repair, but repair costs were low. All in all, cost of ownership was not bad at all if bought at the right price. The AXOD-E was a weak tranny, but if serviced routinely and not abused it would hold up.
All cars have their own common issues. Just research before you buy, and be prepared to deal with thier flaws.
Ms. Janet, some additional information about gaskets: Some years ago, the auto manufacturers realized that mechanical failure was their friend! Even if it happens during the warranty period, there are opportunities to sell other goods and services (e.g., timing belts, water pumps, etc.).
Also, the auto manufacturers noticed that inkjet printer makers make big profits by selling ink even though they were practically giving away printers. And by introducing new printer models monthly, retailers had to keep huge inventories of ink. So now, no two cars coming off an assembly line are allowed to have the same parts. You might go to the auto parts store for a gasket, only to be asked “Was your car built in Oshawa between 11:00 and 11:03 AM?
When that gasket arrives, you will see it looks rather flimsy. That’s because it is. Ford has chosen, based on its excellent experience with the 3.8 V6, to use gaskets made of two-ply cheesecloth. GM tried one-ply cheesecloth but settled on antifreeze-soluble styrofoam. Either type provides the intended brief service life so that the pungent aroma of overheated engines becomes part of the aromatic delight of “new car smell.”
Happy Motoring!
Is that why cars are so much more reliable and durable than they used to be? Your post doesn’t seem to make any sense.
I think that reliability problems due to “planned obsolescence” is a myth. I would argue that most manufacturers want to meet customer expectations that engines will last at least as long as the car’s paint provided the customer gets regular fluid changes. In engineering there is always pressure to make products cost less for the manufacturer, but any loss of service life is incidental. Just replaced a window regulator that could have lasted twice as long if part that made contact with the gears was made of thicker or harder steel, but I don’t think someone at Honda specifically designed it to wear out after 11 years. Their engineers just selected the part that met cost and weight constraints.
At some point a car will wear to the point where paint oxidation, dents, and interior cosmetic damage repel normal women. Depending on one’s marital status, this can be useful or disastrous. However, most cars eventually become beaters no matter how carefully they are maintained. Major mechanical repairs will not reverse beater status once the paint starts peeling and the dash cracks.
Who knows (or cares) how your problem came to fruition. Because the fix is labor intensive, painful on your wallet considering a mechanic’s hourly shop rate. My advice is to dump it soon; most Subarus from the past 10 years are challenging, complicated money pits relative to a Honda/Toyota counterpart.
Oh Sanjeev. You are about to bring down upon yourself the wrath of an army of Birkenstock wearing lesbians who listen to the Indigo Girls and have a Mac sticker on the back window of their Outback, backed up a phalanx of light infrantry; a group of 20 something gearhead wannabe’s with fartcan mufflers on their WRX that make them sound like an angry lawnmower, convinced that they could smoke a ZR-1 Corvette in the 1/4 and top end, and will want to tell the story about how they were crusin’ with a can of Four Loco and outran a GT-R.
All humor aside I see the same “unscientific” trend and Subbies having a lot of head gasket problems. My friend’s Subbie just died last week with a fatal headgasket leak. I would really like Mike at True Delta to wade into this — are Subbie owners just more “vocal” due to their Apple grade brand loyalty, so statistically you hear more, or have they become troublesome money pits???
No, it’s pretty common knowledge that Subaru engine can and do have problems with headgaskets, especially if proper maintenance guidelines are not followed. If your Subaru is drinking the prescribed Koolaid, er coolant additive, the life expectancy for the head gaskets has proven to be much longer. How many people do you know that even flush their coolant when they are supposed to? I can’t tell you how many cars I’ve seen with well into 150k++ miles that still have the original coolant from the factory. All these things make a difference for any make of car.
Now where did I put my Birkenstocks, I’ve got Z06s to smoke on the quarter mile!
@Holden: LOL! +1
This Subaru coolant additive sounds a lot like the coolant goo tablets GM used to prescribe for the infamous Cadillac HT series of engines.
Anytime a company says to add a special gasket sealing magic goop to the coolant you can be pretty sure an engineering mistake is at the root of the thing.
Subaru’s Gen I and (to lesser extent) II 2.5 engines are both prone to HG issue. Whereas 2.0 Turbo, as well as older 1.8/2.0/2.2 are not.
Post 2005 2.5s seem to be trouble-free.
3.0 6-cylinder engines of all 3 Gens are trouble-free.
If I’m not mistaken, the OP has already gotten the correct answer from Sajeev. I agree with his assessment, which is to say for the amount of money she will spend, she may be better off finding something newer and more conventional. However, only she can determine what works best for her.
I’m not saying to do this, but this “miracle-in-a-can” stuff lasted for about 25 months on my Grand Ams when they had bad head gaskets.
http://www.seal-a-head.com/page18.html
I’m with several of the posters here that I belive the car is fixable and would do the same. Subaru’s do enjoy good resale value so you may be able to trade it in for a good price without doing repairs if that was in the cards. I personnaly have never bought a new car and the average age of my fleet has run about 12-14 years old, with little problems. Even with working out the orginal cost of the cars I buy (1300 -5200) I figured my average savings over buying a new car has run around %40 -70 without factoring savings on insurance etc. I only had one car that has needed to be towed more then once (93 VW golf) other then that I usually escape with minor repairs year to year, I only had one major failure on one of these cars (failed head on a 22R yota.) Other then that I usually sell them when I get sick of fixing little things.
My god, so much misinformation here. I hope poor Janet does not read these comments.
How can there be any misinformation? It’s against the law to post anything on the Internet that isn’t true. But if Janet is unsure about any of the suggestions she reads here, sound advice on choosing a replacement vehicle can be obtained from a professional used car salesman down at Smilin’ Jack’s Reborn Vegas and Pintos.
HUNDREDS of Subaru problems here, like this….
Skip’s Head Gasket Failure Guestbook
http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/guestlog.html
Subarus have a long way to go to deserve their “dependable” or “quality” reputation. I’d estimate for every one that someone raves about, there are two or three that are total money pits. Also, figure the $1500 in excessive general maintenance costs in the first 100k miles, for starters.
Except that Consumer Reports ranked Subaru as being tied for first for the most reliable car maker:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/who-makes-the-best-cars/overview/
And we all know that no car from Detroit has ever had a problem with their head gaskets before they hit 100k miles.
Is this the same Consumers Reports that a TTAC article skewered a few months ago for faulty criteria and falsely estimating “results?”
The same Consumers Reports that rates a Chevy different than the identical car, sans the Pontiac badge?
The same Consumers Reports that send me those vague questions with only vague answers to select from about my car experience?
The same Consumers Reports that had the Pontiac 6000 to select from on their new car survey after it hadn’t been made for eight years? (How’s that for survey accuracy and believability?)
@Detroit-X
Yup, that Consumer Reports. The, “but Consumer Reports says its reliable,” is the tool of the weak in automotive debate. Their dataset is dirty, their survey base biased, and their questions vague.
The one point I will say where you might be off is different results for the “same” cars via badge engineering (or darn close to it). For example it would be easy to say hey, the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe should get the same results, they’re both Corollas at their heart. So why on earth, how could it be possible the Vibe had a slight quality edge?
The Vibe was built in Freemont, the Matrix built in Ontario. Ontario could handle right hand drive assembly for export, Freemont could not, hence the two different factories. Where something is built can have a direct impact on its quality.
Another example is the W-Body Impala was built in Canada, while the W-Body Grand Prix was built in Kansas City until 2003. The Osawa factory in Canada has always been a quality leader for production, and vehicles built there generally have higher quality (shame GM couldn’t extend that to other locations). I completely agree that if two vehicles roll down the same assembly line, and get mostly the same parts sans the badges and some trim, the quality results should be the same.
Why on earth, according to CR is the old W-Body Buick Regal unkillable while the identical W-Body Grand Prix of the same era was crap? Things that make you go, hmmmmmmmmmmm…
Where something is built can have a direct impact on its quality.
Absolutely. Many Panther fans will swear till their dying days that the Wixiom, MI built Town Cars are more carefully assembled than the St. Thomas, Ontario built models.
@ HoldenSSVSE
Point noted on the assembly plant, and while I agree that’s a valid distinction, I’ve seen identical plant, identical cars, different-nameplate vehicles get different CR scores. You would at least think that CR would at least have the meticulousness to address this.
Others on this topic here have mentioned J.D. Power. I just ignored it, as I feel most people should.
Here’s a Subaru tidbit for the debate:
If anyone has e a more reliable method of gathering real statistics regarding quality, I’d be more than happy to see it. I’d also like to see TrueDelta’s results regarding Subaru’s quality. I take Consumer Reports opinion on quality a lot more seriously than “my best friend’s cousins” stories about what cars are well-made.
No statistical survey is perfect (that’s why there’s a margin of error) but you can usually see trends that you can make assumptions from.
I do tire of the “I wuz robbed” excuse why people’s favorite brands do poorly with Consumer Reports.
It depends on the year Subaru and the engine. Four years ago, my mother gave my oldest son a ’92 Legacy Wagon that keeps on going with about 170,000 miles. Just keep the fluids changed and filled and he’s good to go.
My wife had a ’98 Outback which suffered from the very head gasket fetish that seems to plague the 2.5 engine from about ’96-’03. We had an extended warranty, fortunately, but when shopping for the Outback she owns now – an ’05 – we did some checking around to make sure we weren’t buying another one prone to gasket failure. That’s how we learned that past ’03-’04 you’re pretty good to go as far as head gaskets are concerned.
That said, there’ve been some minor issues – the heated mirrors no longer work, for example – that are disappointing. Like Toyota, it seems that Subaru has gotten on the decontenting bandwagon and it makes me wonder how my wife’s ’05 will be holding up at 170,000 miles.
I hear so much about Subaru problems related to drivetrain and engine gasket failures. I’m the last to defend Detroit, but if there was a blue oval on the hood the brand would be blasted in the blogs. I guess Subaru can do no wrong, even though it’s obvious their engines are not reliable and at times become money pits after 100k. I love Japanese cars, but I do think the media is biased.
At what point does a manufacturer stop having to take responsibility for servicing their products? We’re talking about a problem for a car that has over 150,000 miles.
When you buy a car, that doesn’t mean you get free maintenance and service for life.
Sam P , the amount of DSGs in the VW/ Audi fleet is pretty small, actually the abandoned Audi CVT is a much bigger piece of junk. (those owners I feel sorry for)
Running any old cars you need backup transportation. Even if you can turn a wrench yourself it gets real old and inconvenient when one inevitably breaks.
Fix the Subie, get a bus pass,scooter, sign up with flexcar whatever.
We have 3 cars between my wife and I , even then we were caught out recently for the first time in 10 years. Head gasket blew on my Ranger and clutch slave on my Hungarian sports coupe started to stick within 3 days of each other.
To all those who would say just get a new car: Who can guarantee that a new car will not have problems as well? Sure the repairs are covered by warranty, BUT you are paying a very nice premum for that, and you still have to take time off from work to go fight with the service advisor. You also don’t know if some high school kid had his greasy mitts all over it, and what else he broke trying to fix the problem you brought it in for. In the last couple of years, cars have been steadily compromised regarding their engineering safety margin. The bean counters, after all, still have the final say. The best single thing you can do for your car is to garage it. I would say it conservatively doubles the life of rubber and plastic parts.
Who can guarantee that a new car will not have problems as well?
The statistics pretty much speak for themselves:
http://www.mymoneyblog.com/consumer-reports-car-reliability-charts.html
In the last couple of years, cars have been steadily compromised regarding their engineering safety margin.
Evidence please.
@jmo:
Ahhh, the old Consumer Reports argument. TTAC ran a series of articles on why Consumer Reports results are crap; namely they do not have a valid statistical sample on many of the vehicles they report on. In some cases recommendation/condemnation is literally based on a SINGLE REVIEW in a three year period (Porsche as an example). Additionally where Consumer Reports polls only their own reader base there is a natural bias in the sampling group they get their data from.
Finally these surveys are subjective. If I own a Toyota Camry and had to deal with two recalls for gas pedal replacement and floor mat replacement I may not elect to “report” this as a problem in my survey; hey it was a recall. On the other hand I may just as likely report a failed dome light light bulb because hey, that isn’t supposed to happen!
In automotive circles when someone trots out CR, JDP, etc. etc. as their “proof” of quality, it indicates to me they don’t have much of a position if they are going to show invalid analysis of a flawed, and frequently too small dataset. If there is a wide enough dataset (like for Camry as an example where CR gets thousands of reports) than the dataset is more valid — but trotting out CR as the defacto, hey look for yourself at “quality,” is super, super weak.
Holden,
Please feel free to link to your data. You do have data don’t you?
@HoldenSSVSE
Exactly! How many people return those CR surveys and say ” I love my slopmobile and have had no problems at all” Fact of life dictates that people love to bitch, and are only motivated to complain when they have a problem. I pay attention when I see a problem constantly mentioned on the internet, but I also keep in mind the there are many multiples of the number responding that have had no problem in that particular area. CR is only a small part of the decision equation.
Consumer reports dont know their arse from their elbow Subaru blow headgaskets end of. Just ask someone who worked in a Sub parts dept they eat parts. Out here on gods green island we have the highest Subie per ownership on the planet wreckers yards are loaded with dead subs with blown HGs and the roads are loaded with sorry arsed people nursing subs along knowing they cant sell them bcoz huge gas use/ suspect headgaskets.. Boy racers think subs are fast idiots I used to blow them away in a Peugeot diesel especially on twisty roads. Janet get the car fixed then trade it on something reliable if u cant repair cars yourself stay away from the dodgy brands.
>a 10-year-old car is a money pit, no matter who makes it
Oh yeah? … consider:
Most car notes today are over $500 a month. Add collision insurance and you’re up to -at least- $600 a month. And we all know that $700 is a more credible number. Before deprecation.
Each. And. Every. Month.
And you’d suggest she not do ~$1000 in repairs?
Granted a 5 year old Camry would be cheaper and require less maintenance but it would cost about $8000 to acquire.
If you accept the fact we don’t own anything we only rent it, it becomes an issue of dollars per month for transportation. Her Subaru has no more deprecation to fight. Now it’s pure rental. If she kept the Camry another 5 years, she’d lose about $4000 in value as well. (plus she’d want collision for at least part of that)
She’d be throwing away $1000 a year (~$800 a month) on deprecation and insurance. Not including the note. And maintenance.
If you consider total cost of ownership, a new car is a money pit.
Every time I hear people say they are buying a new car because the old was was too expensive to maintain, I figure they lie to themselves about other things too. ;-)
Sorry, I’m a numbers geek.
If you consider total cost of ownership, a new car is a money pit
Does this “total cost of ownership” include rental cars and moving up the layoff list because you’ve been late three times this quarter with car trouble?
I faced the ‘buy new or repair’ dilemma several times from 1994 through 2005, when I owned a LeSabre. I purchased it used, repainted, and obviously not maintained at 67k miles, and it was given away running fine and reliable at 238k miles. I spent 4.4 cents per mile in maintenance and repairs, or $47/month, not including oil changes. This cost did include some preventative part-replacements because I’d rather do that than be surprised and stranded, so the ‘failure-only’ cost is much less. It was a joy to find new or used parts all over, anywhere, cheap, unlike the foreign brands.
Here’s the fun part: on the “oil changes,” I used synthetic oil, and I would drain and change the oil just 13 of those 37 times; I changed the filter-only for 24 times! (Every 4700 miles, on average.) The GM 3.8L V6 used 1-2 quarts between filter changes, so I deemed that ‘good enough’… and I was right. Engine, trans, and exhaust were all original and never serviced. I loved that car, and I wish I could do it all over again.
@ jmo,
I don’t like pointing you to areas of the internet that MIGHT prove my point, so I will use one of my personal vehicles as an example. I’m sure many others can be found if I searched. I used to own a 2002 Acura MDX. Upon hearing that the transmissions were failing at an alarming rate, I traded it in for a 2006 MDX, after being assure by Honda that the transmission had been redesigned, and that the problem had been rectified. Result? Needed new torque converter at 20,000 miles. Other owners of the same year have had the entire transmission fail. Many owners of Honda vehicles have had the same or other problems with their automatic transmissions. Earlier vehicles I had owned had gome 200,000 miles with no transmission problems. As for your first post, you are stating overall reliability has increased. I agree with this. I had stated: Who can guarantee that a new car will not have problems as well? Not exactly the same thing. When a problem occurs on a new vehicle, it is annoying to the owner, regardless if it is a common problem or not. BTW, if you frequent the BMW or Audi forums you might see that the new cars seem to be having more problems than the old ones AT THE SAME AGE. Not a good sign. Parts are also being made lighter to reduce vehicle weight and improve fuel mileage. This usually, but not always, results in problems down the road. Example: Brake rotors. I also recommend you do not rely on Consumer reports so much, because as I learned in my first statistics class: Statistics can be manipulated to get the results you desire. Good luck!
Parts are also being made lighter to reduce vehicle weight and improve fuel mileage.
Same thing has been happening forever with airplanes, but then those things cost like, well, airplanes. It was no coincidence that Burt Rutan had a lot of input on GM’s EV1 and that I certainly couldn’t afford to pay the price to buy one even if GM were willing to sell it at cost – probably even if they took the development cost as sunk.
I’ve done a lot of fatigue life projections on components and the weight/geometry versus life trade-off is very nonlinear and tricky. Suppose you had a steel rod and you bent it 1000 times and that there was no permanent set of the rod. It is a pretty good bet that, knowing nothing else about that rod, you could specify a rod that was about the cube root of 2 greater diameter and predict that it would never fail under that same bending load. Very, very generally, a small change in beefiness of a part can result in a large change in useful life. (Actually, for our rod, you’d need a sample set greater than 1 and you’d consider a lot of other factors too). For the rod redesign, 70% more material gets you an infinite life, but it sure is tempting to nibble away at that 70% if you have to burn fuel to move it. You don’t need this rod to live forever, do you? You could bore the rod, but then it costs more to make. For example, no sane person would put a set of hollow spoke forged wheels on a rice rocket. Yet Porsche will sell you a set for your cost-less-of-an-object 911TT. You could make the part out of unobtanium, but that costs more too. A bargain set of 20 titanium wheel studs for a Porsche will set you back $500 to save a little weight and rotary inertia. Any takers?
You can generalize this for just about all materials, loads and types of parts in a car and then add in the fun of projecting life under very infrequent larger loads, corrosion and other deterioration, etc, etc, etc.
BMW,
Your anecdotes are of little value. I need data.
At the risk of having my gonads non-surgically removed by Subaru fans, will somebody explain to me how the hell Subaru developed a positive reputation notwithstanding blown head gaskets, bad turbos, fragile CV joints, troublesome wheel bearings and warranty denials. Its pancake engine configuration means even the reliable models incur high labor charges!
My uncles Loyale Wagon was an unstoppable tank that went over 300,000 miles. The only issue was rust, but it was built in 1985 and gone by the turn of this century. One of my colleagues has a late 90s AWD Legacy wagon, only option was the automatic trans. Still driving it and hasn’t had any major repairs, I believe she’s owned it since it was new, it must have more than 200,000 miles on the odometer.
Subaru could be running on reputation.
Possum Bourne the Kiwi rally ace was what gave them the great rep he won many events in underpowered Subies, more power and turbo charging followed on more rally wins etc, The road cars were never that good.
I believe Dan has it. My ’93 finally got to be not worth fixing at 285k miles, and I loved that car. On the strength of it I bought my ’05 LGT, which has been trouble-free, but given the number of problems others report with turbochargers and HGs it might be my last Subie.
@ Educator(of teachers)Dan
I would certainly agree to this. All my Subarus before my 1999 were loved, decent, and a good value. When their sales stagnated years back, and they went 100% AWD on all models, I wonder if that was the first wave of their poor reputation starting.
The ’99 I had was absolutely horrid and a total money pit. Terrible depreciation too; nothing close to what ‘blue book’ says. I wish a fanatic Subaru-lover had been in the right place at the right time to buy that money-pit from me at my initial selling price.
Many of these Subaru problems reported in the last two decades aren’t rocket science to correct, engineering-wise, and by the online message boards, it seems Subaru has a lot of contempt for it’s customers with problems. No wonder they are bottom-feeders in the U.S. market.
The problem is that FHI is a relatively small company with tiny budgets for R&D.
Most head gasket problems came from stretching to 2.5L the design that already had been stretched to the safe limit – 2.2. All that and some rampant cost-cutting on components – and there you go.
However, to be fair, they’ve put some effort where required and their 2005+ 2.5s are largely trouble-free.
As I posted above, it depends on the year, like most other makes and models. Toyota, Honda, Nissan…it seems the worst enemy of most pre-2000 Japanese vehicles is rust.
Subaru indeed had a bulletproof reputation that was well-earned based on many of their models going 300,000 miles and more. That was then. Other than changing the timing belt and tune-ups, you were good to go.
Even during the years when the 2.5 head gaskets were a problem the rest of the vehicle was solid. I think going forward you’ll see fewer stories of owners driving their Subies 300,000 miles or more. FHI may have gotten their act together in the engine compartment but are decontenting the rest. Just my observation from the three Subies that have been in our family.
Well, my issues with head gaskets are limited to Chrysler 2.5L 4 cyls. 1990 – 1992 vintage. As I sit here on high, about to turn 60 years of age, I no longer attempt this sort of repair, because I can afford to replace a vehicle, if not with a new one, a decent used one. Also, limited to my experience with Chryslers, as engines age, especially ones made of aluminum, stress cracks develop over time and even if you replace the head gasket, that forms a newly tight seal, which now stresses the remainder of the engine.
I’d dump the car if there is any opportunity to replace it – that is, if it is affordable for you to do so. This, I feel, is just the beginning and will drain your resources that could be better used on a newer, more reliable vehicle. I realize that if this is not an option, then use your resources (friends that know someone to repair the car, cheaply) and buy yourself some time until you can afford to replace it.
That’s the best advice I can offer.
The boxer engine design is a poor choice for mass market cars. There are good reasons every mass market make other than Subaru moved away from that design.
It sure is not the most economical one, but it is one interesting and elegant engineering concept and I am grateful to FHI for sticking with it. And enabling me to enjoy it in its H-6 form.
Economy per se is not the best guide here, otherwise you would live in the world full of Tatas (Nano).
An engine architecture which is more expensive to manufacture than are competing alternatives whilst yielding lower fuel economy for a given size/output is an interesting novelty, but not a smart choice for a volume manufacturer.
Porsche gets away with the boxer because novelty and mystique are essential brand elements which customers are willing to pay dearly for. Porsche customers also seem to be surprisingly forgiving of durability and reliability issues in much the same way Ferrari buyers are.
I suspect that the recent upswing in Subaru sales as some people moved out of large SUVs will have a real downside in years ahead; much as the blip in US VW sales 15 years ago was swamped by a product which didn’t meet mass market expectations.
But John, it’s smooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooth. (Just playing devils advocate, the only reason that would pop to mind is I spent many years driving a tractor like “Iron Duke.”)
“whilst yielding lower fuel economy for a given size/output is an interesting novelty, but not a smart choice for a volume manufacturer.”
The 2011 Subaru Outback gets 22/29 city/highway per fueleconomy.gov with the 2.5 liter CVT tranny and AWD.
Even the 3.6 liter flat 6 Outback with the 5-speed automatic and AWD gets 18/25. That compares well with the V6 AWD Highlander, which gets 17/22 city/highway. The smaller RAV4 V6 AWD gets 19/26 city/highway.
For someone who always sees an opportunity for a LS-x swap, I am surprised that the author did not recommend an EJ25T swap! N/A Suby’s with HG failure are perfect swap candidates for a turbo 2.5l from an 05+ Legacy, 04+ STI or 06+ WRX.
I have a 06 LGT and I love it.
Janet seems too nice and real to give such a silly and irrelevant answer. I will scream up and down for LS1-FTW or anything else, provided its one of the regular TTAC-goofballs writing to me. But Janet needed real answers and is in a serious predicament, all things considered.
For the record, the guy who wanted a bigger gas tank to improve his BMW M3’s cruising range really does need an LS1-T56 swap to accomplish that task…aside from the obvious benefits of the swap. But no EJ25T swap this time ’round.
I’ve owned three Subarus and had extremely good luck with them, especially as compared to my prior two decades with Audis.
The only relevant technical information in either the article or the comments is by “horseflesh” citing: http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gasket-problems-explained/
That’s the real scoop. My Subie mechanic for ten years, before he ran off to tend to a herd of Panthers for the local city police force at a damn good salary, was also my Audi mechanic. Same store. He pointed out time and again how much better Subies were designed compared to VW/Audi in myriads of little ways. He also won the Canadian Subaru mechanic of the year competition three separate times and was sent to Japan for the finals where he came third or fourth.
The head gasket problem is just as detailed in the link above. Since most people wander about lost and in a reverie, even original owners contacted by Subaru about the head gasket problems, particularly of the Phase 2 SOHC engine (the subject here) forgot about it and went on as if nothing had happened. Then got all excited when their engines failed.
I was shown literally piles of engines where people overheated them, took no notice and hoped it would all go away. Stuck rings in pistons where not even a chisel would free them up. Scuffed cylinder walls from said pistons, etc. Now, obviously Subaru designed a bad head gasket, twice (DOHC first, then SOHC). 1999 to 2003 were the real problem. For some reason the 2.2 Phase 2 engine didn’t ever seem to exhibit the problem, but it is identical in layout to the 2.5. Had one of those, only thing that went wrong with the car was a knock sensor and the fuel filler pipe in ten years. The exhaust recirc comes in on the driver’s side bank where the leak usually starts, probably because it made the area hotter.
Getting the head gaskets fixed, if the engine hasn’t been overtaxed, is a good repair to do, if you trust the mechanic. If, like me, you no longer see any half decent mechanics at your Subaru store, prayer for a long and trouble-free life is all you have. The current mechanics cannot even adjust the parking brake properly, and lubing the door hinges must be an arcane art, as mine haven’t been lubed in three years despite me mentioning it to the sevice writer, whereupon he pointed out the door stay as the hinge. He refused to lubricate the actual hinges, because “we don’t have any problems with them.” Where do they find these people? (Steele Subaru Halifax NS)
So, my recommendation for such an old vehicle is to repair or sell strictly on whether you have a decent mechanic locally, and I would say the same for any make.