TTAC Commentator PG writes:
Sajeev, my 2008 Subaru WRX is like a hot girl with a coke problem – lots of fun, but I can’t keep up. Now a few months back, Piston Slap gave me some great advice on my parents’ BMW X5. They haven’t unloaded it yet, but I think they will soon. Thanks again! Now, I was wondering if you and the Best and Brightest could help me out.
So save me from my WRX! Last year, I bought a rally-blue WRX sedan from a car lot. The lot was definitely a little shadier than your standard Carmax dealership, but the dealer gave me a good deal on the car, though a Subaru tech told me it had once been wrecked and repaired. Subaru was kind enough to replace the clutch for me when it failed not long after I got the car.
The car is fast, handles well and is a lot of fun to drive – when it works. Since buying it with 30,000 miles on the clock, I’ve had lots of expensive maintenance, including the replaced clutch, a busted brake light sensor (which is about to go bad again), a transmission that pops out of fifth gear on the highway, something that causes it to stall at low RPMs on cold days (Subaru never figured that one out), and now, a busted rod inside the clutch pedal assembly that’s gonna put me out a few hundred dollars. There’s more, I just can’t think of it at the top of my head.
I feel like I’m paying a lot in constant repairs for a relatively new car – it only has 65,000 miles on it now (I have to drive a lot for work.) I’m starting to regret my purchase and I dread what will go wrong next.
So, I’m thinking of getting rid of the ‘Rex and getting into something else. The car as it is now is worth more than I owe on the loan, so I should be able to get out of that easily enough. I’d like to replace it with something that’s fun to drive, though not necessarily as fast, but is much more reliable. I’m shooting for $16,000 or less if at all possible.
I’m thinking of trying to track down a Toyota MR-Spyder, hopefully an 04 or 05 with low mileage. I love the looks and that it’s mid-engined. I owned a Corolla for nine years and it was bulletproof reliable. Any word on whether it would be similarly dependable? Failing that, I’m maybe considering an S2000, though a decent used one may be out of my price range. I might consider a 350Z, but I’ve driven a few and I’ve never been too impressed.
Sajeev answers:
Keep in mind that I’m saying this with Love, pure and simple. But let me get this straight: your parents bought a used X5 (from Carmax) and you got a WRX that was an unknown quantity until after the purchase? Do you see your habit of buying the absolute worst representations of these respective brands, from the wrong places? The X5 was (is?) cursed with numerous problems (just ask a BMW Tech) and a ragged-out WRX is wrong on so many levels: a trip to NASIOC (LINK: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/) was all you needed to avoid that mistake.
So now you want a used MR-Spyder? It’s time for wake up call that redefines fun: a car gives you the giggles without burning through money, getting you stranded/fired, etc. The odds of finding a clean little MR-droptop that hasn’t been abused isn’t super likely. More to the point, I recall the MR was plagued with exhaust catalyst bits entering the combustion chamber, subsequent engine failure shortly after. (FWIW, it happened to a former co-worker of mine, I have witnesses.)
Yes, you need a better car. No, you are not looking in the right direction. Get a new-ish Civic Si from a reputable source and do a lot of research on the tuner forums. Ditto a Mustang GT, Cobalt SS, MazdaSpeed 3 or 6, or any other (somewhat) durable, commonplace vehicle with a performance slant that’s not necessarily owned (cough, WRX) by the thrashing type.
My advice? Twofold: a Miata if you don’t mind the lack of power, or a C5 Corvette if you want to go the fastest for Honda levels of capital expenditures. Quite honestly, the C5 gets better with age, which is certainly a departure from your family’s current selection of cars.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
I second Sajeev’s advice, except that I think the S2000 should be among the choices, unless Sajeev has a really good reason I’m not aware of for leaving it out. My gut says an S2000 owner would not be one to abuse it, so the used one (which is all that’s available now that they’ve quit making it) is fine.
My gut says an S2000 owner would not be one to abuse it.
Oh I dont know about that! I test drove one a few years back, (salesman is a friend of mine) and I beat the pi$$ out of it. I can honestly say that it was the most fun I have had in a car in a long time. It simply begs to be flogged. It has almost nothing down low, which is great for stealth cruising around town, but when the vtech kicks in and you get to around 6500 rpm, it’s a rocket. I almost bought it instead of my BMW, but the cockpit was simply too tight, and I like the back seat in my vert. A great car, but I couldn’t see driving it every day
I apologize for being so particular about this in advance. It’s annoying but I’ve been called out so many times for it that I decided to make sure I do it correctly from now on.
VTech makes phones and children’s electronic learning games.
VTEC is the name for Honda’s variable valve timing and lift wizardry.
I know, I’m an a-hole for saying it but I couldn’t help it. Honestly.
The S2000 is very expensive to insure. The total cost of ownership is far lower with a Miata.
In sedans, I’d look for a Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart.
And the lesson here is no car with a salvage title (the OP’s question seems to imply this was salvage title) is worth the “bargain” price.
Fun and Toyota don’t go in the same sentence since 1998 to 2000; the last gen MR2 was a shadow of its former self.
The recommendations of Miata or C5 Corvette are very solid. I would add a Pontiac G8 GT (not a salvaged title, repeat not a salvaged title) and if you look for a G8 GT find one without any modifications (repeat, no CAI, no headers, no cat back, no programming, no Pedders Stage II suspension, no HSRK relocators, BONE FREAKIN’ STOCK) with low miles. A 9L1 car (early production 2009) can be had if you look long and hard for the low $20’s and you’ll be driving a near collectors item. On the other hand if you plan to dog out the G8, I say get the C5 or Miata; they are both a dime a dozen.
I’ll also add the Mazda RX8 to the mix with a manual only. You can find 2010 Mustang GTs for the cheap too given how much better the 2011 is; but that isn’t to say that the Mustang GT is bad.
But I’ll toss this out also; it sounds like the OP is a youngin’ and instead of wasting your money on debt and car care (or mom and dad’s money) may I suggest instead enlisting some help in finding a reliable yet fun to drive car in the $5K to $7K range and call it good. Miata screams out as the choice to go with.
The problem with buying a used sports car is you have no idea how it was treated. Buying a previously wrecked sports car tells you everything you need to know about prior treatment. Stay far, far, away.
Fun and Toyota don’t go in the same sentence since 1998 to 2000; the last gen MR2 was a shadow of its former self.
As a Spyder owner, I beg to differ; it is a great little car, a featherweight mid-engine Corolla. Different than the previous generations, true, but I’m sure Mk.1 owners complained that the Mk.II was a fat pig. Spyders are also new enough that clean examples can be found for a reasonable price.
A couple hours to remove the pre-catalytic converters and the only major bugaboo is taken care of, provided the damage hasn’t already been done. Adding a big front swaybar helps keep the rear-end in place.
Having also owned a Miata, I recommend the Mazda over the Toyota for used pricing, parts availability (both OEM and aftermarket), day-to-day livability, and (arguably?) insurance reasons.
I can’t see where you would get the idea that this is a salvage-title car, if nothing else, the fact that the OP has a loan on it means that is almost certainly isn’t. It takes a LOT of damage to total-loss a nearly-new car, and he bought it when it was only a year or so old.
That said, there is nothing intrisically wrong with a salvage titled vehicle, I have bought three over the years and had excellent results. They are no different than any other used car, you must buy carefully. If you don’t have the knowledge and skills to inspect a vehicle before purchase, pay someone who does. This is true whether there is repaired damage or not.
1st gen TSX with a manual box, I/H/E, Hondata reflash, coilovers, swaybar and pads. Done and done.
He drives a lot of miles, so I wouldn’t recommend the RX-8 in he wants MPG over 20.
How about something new? Buying a used car can (sometimes) be buying someone else’s problem. I owned an 03 WRX new that was dead reliable.
Sajeev likes living dangerously; the WRX fans are going to be very unhappy when they read this.
I own a 2006 WRX Limited wagon bought new with 25 miles. I find Sajeev’s advice sound. A used (salvaged?) WRX from an unknown dealership is a time bomb, especially a 2008 WRX. This was the worst model year in the last decade for Impreza’s.
My 2006, on the other hand, has been trouble-free for 91,000 miles and has only required regular maintenance. I flashed the ECU at 25,000 miles as well.
I would stay away from any forced induction used cars that are popular with the “tuner” crowd.
Now, now…give them credit! Subaru fans are crazy loyal to ttheir he brand, but even the Kool-Aid drinkers know to avoid the basic WRX Pitfalls.
Crazy loyal? Maybe in 2000 and 2004 when I bought an RS and then a WRX. I still love my car – no doubt – but I wouldn’t replace it with a new one.
I think Sajeev is spot on. I love my 09 WRX, but I bought it new.
If I had that 08 WRX I would get out of it too. I’ve found once you have a problem with your Subaru it is so hard to get a dealer to fix it right, warranty or not, and SOA isn’t much help. I am sure the gear popping issue means they will want to put in a new trans and good luck getting SOA to cover it.
I’d also second Sajeev’s comments. A early/mid 2000’s mustang with a V6 will be a lot of fun to drive and fairly reliable unless you’re hard on your cars. Also in the Mustang’s favor is that the parts will be relatively less expensive and you’ll find more shops who can work on them. Defintely glue the WRX together well enough to trade it in on something else, your first loss will be your best loss. And here’s another option, get yourself a hot car to have fun with (maybe an Evo) and a beater to drive to work in.
I like the Mustang idea, but would avoid the V6. I will defer to those with personal experience, but I have understood that these V6s are head gasket munchers. The 4.6 from that era will be much less problematic and much more fun to drive.
Here’s the thing – a wrx rides on rails and above 3600 rpm is a rocket. It can be sublime – a mustang – sadly – will never be sublime. (maybe a 300gt)
TTAC listed the WRX as having the best resale value among its segment. I will scratch it off my used performance car list simply because it makes better financial sense to buy it new. Another budget fun-to-drive car is the discontinued Toyota Corolla XRS. I recall the 1st generation XRS had the same high-strung 180 HP engine as the Celica GTS (detuned to 170HP).
fun-to-drive and Corolla don’t belong in the same paragraph since the RWD AE-86
I drove the Matrix XRS for a while… it was “fun-to-drive”… compared to a Corolla. It red-lined around 8000RPM (if I recall) and was certainly reliable (expect to buy a new clutch every 40k, though). But it would fall short of the WRX. Just didn’t have the tourque or handling.
How about a 2006-07 Acura TSX? Fun, good handling, comfortable, reliable and good mileage. He says he drives a lot for work, so the Corvette or Mustang would just drain cash via the gas tank. A Civic Si as suggested would also do the trick. No matter how young you are, I think having a two seater (MR2, S2000, Miata, Corvette) as your only wheels is a mistake. Life will throw you a curve-ball and you will find yourself looking at yet another car sale and purchase. Get something adaptable.
And no King Authur shield either!
From personal experience, Corvette ownership will cost him enough chances with women that needing more than two seats is very unlikely.
The C5 will actually deliver fantastic MPG if you spend some time on the highway, my c4 (terrible car, no doubt) would deliver 30 mpg on the highway with no problem.
I’m shooting for $16,000 or less if at all possible.
What about a nice modest new car instead of buying someone else’s expensive problems?
Your best bet might be a nice new Mazda 3 for with rebates and 0% financing.
I think you, me, Ronnie, Sajeev, Baruth, and Karesh all know what he needs: used Boxster ;-)
Think about it-mid-engine, six-cylinder, convertible, lots of storage, surprisingly roomy interior. It’s perfect.
Seriously though, the 3 is a good suggestion. There are still a ton of new ’10 Mazdaspeed 3s around where I live that should get him pretty close.
@Detroit-Iron LOL! That’s funny. Yes, the eminately reliable Porsche Boxster, most likely to go to 200K miles according to Consumer Reports and Forbes; so it must be true!
Even though the S2000 is a Honda, it is not without it’s weak areas. Valve train (retainers) and transmission problems (syncros) can lie dormant in wait for a new, unsuspecting owner.
It also has some funky fluid and routine maintenance parts that are not your daddy’s Honda variety (read, another chance for hidden issues due to incorrectly assumed service parts and events).
Now that they are getting cheaper, they are a mod magnet, so finding an unmolested version is going to be tough.
Any performance car can be a money pit without a factory warranty. I believe the OP has already experienced that with his ‘Rex.
BD
Get a new-ish Civic Si from a reputable source and do a lot of research on the tuner forums.
Again, were are you finding “new-ish” Civics that are discounted enough vs. new?
I spent all of 20 seconds finding 2006-2008 Civic Si’s in his price range on Autotrader. CPO models, private sellers (especially a nice 2008 model), you name it.
I didn’t mention it before, but what’s your specific beef with buying a 2-4 year old car to take advantage of depreciation? People work with budgets, this one was explicit in the letter. And nothing holds their value very well after 3 years of use…except maybe Bugattis…
I didn’t mention it before, but what’s your specific beef with buying a 2-4 year old car to take advantage of depreciation?
They aren’t discounted enough to make it worth while financially. A 2008 Civic SI is 17k a new 2010 is $19,500 after rebates and not including the value of the 0.9% financing. It just doesn’t seem like a deal to me. Especially when you’re talking about a car like a Civic.
Even if it lasts 20 years the 2 years that have already been used amount to 10% of its useful life or almost $2k. Where is the deal?
And nothing holds their value very well after 3 years of use
Civics do…
I’ve seen some current-gen Civics (not the Si model) on eBay that sold pretty cheaply. There’s a somewhat common engine-grenading problem with the current DX/LX/EX model, though, which may account for the lower price.
They aren’t discounted enough to make it worth while financially. A 2008 Civic SI is 17k a new 2010 is $19,500 after rebates and not including the value of the 0.9% financing.
I see no rebates on the Civic Si. None on their website, none on Edmunds…but Edmunds changed their format so maybe I’m looking in the wrong place.
I do see the 0.9%, but getting a Civic for $3000-ish under MSRP with 0.9% without haggling sounds like a stretch. This isn’t a GM dealer.
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2010/car-incentives.html
Scroll down to the Si section, $1000 factory to dealer incentives.
Sweet. Okay, so riddle me this: how can you get a $22,000 Si (MSRP, base price) for $19.5k? Invoice is about 21k and I can’t imagine there’s more than $500 holdback on a car at this price point.
Yes, you can do that, but getting a dealer to sell a Civic for essentially zero profit seems like a stretch in my imagination. That’s all I’m saying.
Invoice is about 21k
The invoice is $20,304 minus $1000 in rebates gets us to 19,304. At 19,500 the dealer is making $200 plus the holdback. That seems like a fair deal.
Sorry, I have to agree with JMO on this one… There IS that much markup/discount in Honda products, at least here in FL Apparently it is to absorb the insane tradein values people want for thier cars. I was easily able to score a brand new Civic Si for $19,500.
And I find it comical that you think there is a chance of finding a newish Civic Si that HASNT been abused. It is the poster car for the ricers!
The invoice is $20,304 minus $1000 in rebates gets us to 19,304. At 19,500 the dealer is making $200 plus the holdback. That seems like a fair deal.
You are neglecting the $750 destination fee and all the misc add-ons that many dealers tack on. None of which exists on a private party sale. Not to mention the fact that we are comparing the bottom dollar new car price to the asking price of a used car, assuming it is a fixed data point with no room for negotiation.
Which is hardly the case. Scanning the Manheim Auctions, and this bodystyle Si sells for anywhere from 14k-17k in good condition. Is it that unbelieveable to purchase a private-seller Si from someone for 16k when they’ll only get $15.5k at Carmax? Trust me, that kind of haggling has happened before.
And I find it comical that you think there is a chance of finding a newish Civic Si that HASNT been abused. It is the poster car for the ricers!
Its not that used Civic Si’s aren’t gonna be abused (to some extent), the fact they are based on a very commonplace model makes them far easier on your wallet than a low volume Subie. Ditto the Mustang, Cobalt SS, etc…
Neither of us is saying you cant buy a used Civic Si for “cheaper” than a new one. Our point is, the “discount” for buying used isnt enough to make it worthwhile. IF he has $16k cash, then your idea may be more worthwhile. But since he has a car loan now, I assume he will need another one for the new ride. And financing a 3yo $16k car could require the same (or possibly higher) payment than a brand new $20k car.
Also, if a car has been even lightly modded with fart cans and lowering springs, its a good bet it has led a hard life. The Civic Si engine begs to be abused. It requires some breakin, which may not have been done by the original owner. Its just not worth the risk to save a few bucks a month in payment.
And whoever keeps pointing out the bargain Civic “non-Si” models they see, its a completely different car, and completely gutless. For the price of a used Civic LX, you can get a brand new Mazda3 and be much happier.
it that unbelieveable to purchase a private-seller Si from someone for 16k when they’ll only get $15.5k at Carmax?
Who said anything about private-seller? We’re talking about CPO. If we’re not talking about CPO then we need to adjust for the value of the lost warranty.
Again, even at 16k vs. 19,500, adjusting for interest rates, the value of the warranty and the fact that, at 2 years old 10% of the car’s useful has been consumed*, and it’s just not a deal.
You seem to be under the impression that every used car is a better deal than every new car and that’s just not accurate. It depends on the car and the deal you’re able to get.
* Note 2 years = 10% is based on the car going 20 years and 240k miles, a very generous estimate. A more reasonable expected lifespan would require a much larger discount to make buying used a good value.
Who said anything about private-seller? We’re talking about CPO. If we’re not talking about CPO then we need to adjust for the value of the lost warranty.
I did, for a damn good reason. I would not (in general) buy a CPO Honda if the incentives are good on a new one. Plus, the value of a warranty on any Honda is questionable. This isn’t a BMW. Even the V6 models that eat transaxles usually do so after the factory warranty expires.
You seem to be under the impression that every used car is a better deal than every new car and that’s just not accurate. It depends on the car and the deal you’re able to get.
I see your point, the biggest flaw in my argument is the OP’s interest rate should he get a used car loan from a bank/credit union/parents. The 0.9% APR on Hondas is a big deal. And no, I will not usually research new car deals when giving someone a list of interesting alternatives in this column. It’s a List, we dig into it here in the comments because the Best and Brightest exist for a reason.
In this case? There’s a chance you can search the forums, craigslist, etc with the same amount of effort of haggling to get that $19.5k AND find a Civic Si thats ready to get sold at CarMax auction prices. And more to the point:
1. You won’t have to worry about getting stuck with $150 doc fees
2. Sales tax is usually more than license tax at the DMV (at least it has been in my limited experience)
Ok enough rambling, I admit your points, but if a deal on a private party car can be found at the same time, it must be considered.
Cobalt SS, HHR SS, or (wild card) Impala SS. The Generals interiors do suck but powertrains are one thing the General has gotten right over the years, especially when it comes to their top of the line models. And they’ll be cheap to buy.
Might as well add the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP verus the Impala SS. LS4 all aluminum 303 HP V8 mated to the ancient but reliable 4-speed auto, 18″ wheels, larger rubber up front in a somewhat sad attempt to control torque steer (some said it works, other says it doesn’t YMMV), Brembo brakes, paddle shifters, a liveable interior with excellent ergonomics (OK, the buttons designed by Playskool), heck you even get a HUD. You can find them all day long for under $13K. 0 – 60 in 5.4 seconds with decent road holding. They aren’t a “bad” car; just not a great car.
I think it would be very hard to find a Cobalt SS or HHR SS that hasn’t been thrashed out, sadly.
Forget about the GP and Impala.
If you want a LS4 powered vehicle, the Buick Lacrosse Super is the only way to go.
So LS4 for cheap thrills?
And here I thought I’d get slammed for mentioning LS4-FTW in this set of circumstances.
Hey it’s a durable powertrain right? That seems to be what he’s struggling with.
Double the C5 ‘Vette, but there are some ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY fixes you need to apply to make it livable. The engine bay chassis grounds are all USELESS and lead to all sorts of electronic foibles – particularly involving traction control and ABS deciding they don’t need to exist (which might be a good thing, really), but also affecting things like the damned pop-up headlights.
At a minimum, disconnect them and clean the contacts. At best, replace them with a heavier gauge.
I despise the Civic Si. It’s slow (you have to rev it like you hate the car to get any power out of it) and it’s popular with the thrasher kid set.
If you want to go with more reliable and less likey to be thrashed, I like the Cobalt SS, but I like the HHR SS better.
If you want to with maybe a little less reliable (very aguable, I’ve had good luck with these cars) and almost positively babied, then chase down an Audi A3. It’ a hot rod little car that’s easy to find in stick shift, usually driven gently by the first owner, and the older ones had free service for the first 3 years, so you know the dealer was caring for it.
Agreed, but I understand why people would spend the money for Civic bones over Cobalt bones…even if the performance is inferior in many respects.
Depends on where you’re from, I guess. Around here, the older civic’s are the ones that get thrashed. Most of the newer ones (05 Si’s and newer) seem to be well taken care of. Sure, they get their share of fart cans and crappy aftermarket bits n pieces, but I see more cobalt SS’s, wrx’s of all ages & older civics and accords trashed within an inch of the owner’s life.
And yes, the Si won’t even win a stoplight race against mom’s minivan, but it’s certainly a worthwhile step up for a performance minded sort, over the base model. I enjoy my 07, it’s not a rocketship, but it’s quick enough to get into trouble with if you’re not paying attention.
I’m shooting for $16,000 or less if at all possible.
Dump the ‘Rex, buy a reliable, low price, beater (used Cobalt or something similar w/ a stick). Drive it for a year (maybe two depending on your pain threshold) and increase your budget to $20+.
That extra $5K will give you a lot more options.
I’m no fan of many dealers. However, unless you want to twist your own wrench, a good dealer is necessary if you want reliability and performance in a used vehicle.
I’m no fan of many dealers. However, unless you want to twist your own wrench, a good brand specific independent repair shop is necessary if you want reliability and performance in a used vehicle.
Fixed that for you.
@jrlombard
I’m rapidly coming to agreement with you on our Subaru, though the two options I’ve found in my area are really inconvenient.
Get a certified Civic Si 4 door, one owner with a thorough service history. Most kids can’t afford one new. Peace of mind with the power train warranty, competitive finance rates through American Honda Finance if your credit is good and don’t have the cash on hand, and it has a useable back seat.
That’s about what I found in my 07 si sedan back in august. Dealer was asking about 17,000. 1 “owner” (it was technically a lease vehicle according to the documentation the dealer had), 17,300 miles. I got it for 16,500. I’d have preferred that the stock wheels were still on it, but it did have brand new tires. A few minor dings in the paint, but other than that it was just like new. However, it didn’t have any warranty left on it. It’s been trouble free so far.
I would second the 1st Gen Corolla XRS as a possibility if you want something reliable and sporty. You can grab a CPO one from Toyota with low miles for about 10-13K. It also has a strong owners forum full of enthusiasts and knowledgeable people over at 9thgencorolla.com
I have owned one for the past 3 years so I can tell you what to expect in terms of costs of ownership. If you drive the car hard then expect to replace the clutch around 60-90K miles. Toyota just cheeped out on this part. When the time comes I would take the opportunity to replace the OEM clutch with a good $200-300 aftermarket clutch kit. Also figure $400 for the installation. (That’s what I paid when my clutch failed at 65K and I took that opportunity to replace it with an ACT clutch). Other than the clutch I have had zero problems with the car. Regular oil and tire rotations every 5K miles. Toyota’s 50,000 mile service cost me about $150. Next major service is at 100,000. No expensive maintenance intervals. It requires 91 octane but I average about 36 mpg on my largely highway commute. The XRS also reacts extremely well to simple boltons and has decent aftermarket support because it shares the same engine with the celica GTS, matrix and elise/exige.
If you can find a used Civic Si or Acura RSX Type S that has been unmolested for the same price as an XRS than I would probably pick one of those cars over the XRS. When I was looking, the XRS was always 2-3 grand cheaper than those 2 cars.
Good luck!
How many of those Corolla gen 1 GT-S motor XRS’s did they sell? I have seen like one out on the street, ever. Anything rare is just asking for problems if you don’t have time to do your own research and just want a mechanic to be able to sort it out.
I have had some relatively rare cool cars and you always need to take matters in to your own hands because there is no mechanic who will know about them.
I agree a Civic Si or RSX would be great.
Toyota made approximately 6300 1st Gen Corolla XRS in North America.
5000 XRS in 2005 and approximately
1300 XRS in 2006
Now that you mention it, I remember spending about 6 months looking for a used Corolla XRS back in 2007 and I had to travel to a different state each time to test drive one because they would pop up for sale so sporatically. I actually test drove one at a Toyota Dealership and the salesman had no idea the XRS had a different engine than the regular Corolla. He pointed to the front tower strut bar running across the engine bay which said “XRS” and told me that was why this car was called an XRS, because it had a special suspension package. The fact that it was so rare and no one really had heard of it helped me get the XRS at a really great price. Let’s face it, unless you read comments like this in TTAC, how would you ever know that in 2005 Toyota took a couple thousand Corollas and dropped a 170 HP, high revving engine attached to a close ratio 6 speed in a boring old Corolla? It’s not like the Civic Si where I would get pressured by salesmen saying that they already had someone interested in the car when I would arrive to test drive it.
As for scarcity of parts or problems, you can check out the owners groups like I did before I bought the car. That’s how I found out about the clutch going bad. Otherwise I haven’t heard of any other consistant problems or repairs costing alot of money due to scaricity of parts. Afterall the 2ZZ engine is still in production in other parts of the world.
Let’s go to school, courtesy of the OP!
Lesson 1: Salvage title cars are too cheap to be true for a reason — they’re a black box of unknown — and unknowable — (until it’s too late) problems. A number of states require an insurance company to “total” a car that will cost more than a surprisingly low percentage of its value to repair. Why is that? Are the staties in league with car dealers and car manufacturers? Nope. It’s just a way of getting potentially dangerous cars off the road.
Lesson 2: Cheap hot cars are to be avoided, especially cheap hot cars that used to be expensive hot cars. Why? Because when you buy any used car, you are buying the previous owner(s)’ maintenance or lack thereof. Owners of cheap hot cars (unless they owned them for a long time, when they were expensive, hot cars) are more likely than not to (a) avoid some maintenance and/or (b) resort to some cheap “performance enhancements” that may or may not enhance performance but may have other detriments. And, hot cars generally are less tolerant of indifferent maintenance than grocery-getters powered by OHV, iron block engines (speaking metaphorically). Expensive hot cars are more likely to have been correctly maintained by their owners. I would make an exception to the “cheap hot car” rule for a Miata or a Civic Si, provided it wasn’t too cheap.
Now, some suggestions for the OP. If you do your homework very carefully, you may be able to beat the dealer. Example: the car I own — an ’01 Z3 3.0. I bought it as a CPO car 7 years ago. BMWs include free maintenance for the life of the initial warranty. So there was no doubt that the car was maintained. The prior owner had both a bra and a car cover; he was, no doubt, obsessive about it. In my hands, the car has been flawless. The water pump was replaced under warranty — just because it was making noise — and the window lifts are a little slow when the car’s been sitting all night in 20 degree (F) weather. Turns out my experience is not atypical. With apologies to Michael Karesh, Consumer Reports “frequency of repair” records says my car is “much better than average” — the highest rating you can get from CU. No other Z3 gets such a good rating. Around my neighborhood, you should be able to buy my car for around $12K or less.
Now, that said, for the first time since I have owned the Z3, my household is a 2-car household, with the Z3 being the second car. Prior to that, we were a 3 or even 4 car household, depending upon how you counted the car that one of my daughters took to college 100 miles away. What I find is that, even though my household is now just me and my wife, the Z3’s limitations as a second car (mostly that it has only one other seat) are showing up, and, much as I enjoy it, especially with the top down, I’m thinking about giving it up. I can’t even go for a ride in the country with my wife and my dog. The honest truth is, for people of any age or station, 2-seat cars are just “toys.” Unless you really don’t need a car at all, or unless you have another 4-seat car, you shouldn’t have one.
You just listed all the reasons why I wound up selling my 2001 Z3 3.0. I dumped the payment too, netted several thousand dollars, and am putting the money into renovations on my house.
I also snagged a 1991 318is with a third of the profit and that’s actually a better driver. Should be much cheaper and easier to maintain too.
Another lesson: hot cars that used to be expensive but are now cheap still have expensive maintanence. I.e., you buy a 10 year old BMW, it’s still a BMW with the attendant repair costs. The cars depreciate, repair costs do not.
Exception, older 1990s Lexus vehicles can generally be worked on by Toyota mechanics at Toyota prices. because they have enough Toyota in their DNA. I assume the same is true for Infinity/Nissan and Acura/Honda, but don’t have personal experience to back that up.
Since you’re willing to drive a manual, look at some sedans where the stick version will tend to sit on the lot waiting for a buyer. For example, an Acura TL with a manual deletes the unreliable automatic and upgrades the brakes, but most customers will reject it. A nice Ford Fusion or related Mazda6 could also provide some balance between fun potential and reliable, not thrashed to death, used status.
I’m getting a new clutch for my 13yr old Ranger with 151K miles. Had the hydraulic slave cylinder not dumped brake fluid on the lining, I’d no doubt gotten a few K more.
I have never, ever, had luck with used stickshift vehiles. I have always ended up buying clutches within 3 years.
But that much trouble with a 3 y.o. clutch is ridiculous!
I have an ’03 Focus, purchased new, with 120k on the original clutch. My mom had to replace the clutch on her Ranger @ 45 and I drove it from about 50 to 130 and it is still fine. A friend of mine had a modified Evo w/ 315 WHP that made it to 85k despite autocross and bracket drags.
I think I had a point here other than bragging about my wife’s and my stick shift skillz but I don’t know what it was.
I know there’s a lot of VW hate on this site (I’m to blame for that as well), but have you considered something like a Jetta or Golf TDI? Since the OP says he drives a lot for work it could be a good option. Check out tdiclub.com for more information on them than you could ever absorb. They are tunable as well through injector upgrades, turbo upgrades, and ECU re-programming.
Also http://www.foobert.com/carhunt.html will do a search of Craigslist ads for used TDIs.
I haven’t driven one yet, but I’m really intrigued by the Golf TDI. I do a ton of driving and that gas mileage sounds great. How do they drive?
My friend in PA has one, and he loves it. He has taken it to Florida several times, and says it handles well. Lots of torque, relatively speaking. He has had to replace the glowplugs, and they are known to be wonky, but it’s a cheap and easy fix. The mileage is fantastic.
I owned one of these from brand new (2010 model) and it is a complete and utter piece of garbage car. In the 10 months that I owned it, it tortured me with a christmas tree’s worth of malfunction indicator lights from engine issues to ABS issues to airbag issues, that giant sunroof never seated properly and creaked around like an old wooden ship, the front subframe (you know, that fancy piece of metal that holds the drive drain and suspension to the car) had bolts that kept coming loose from the chassis, and the touch-screen radio is a total hardware and software disaster.
and for reference, that miserable Rube Goldberg engine has more moving parts and widgets on it that cause more grief than I have ever seen on an IC engine, and all to avoid urea injection. I’ll take the pee tank, thankyouverymuch, and VW can keep the dual EGR system, the $2000 particulate filter than VW tells me I might need to replace at 100k miles, and the hyper expensive engine oil. BTW, don’t fill up with ‘bad fuel’ in these cars or the fuel pump detonates and takes the $10k 20,000 psi fuel system with it.
If you can find one, a pre-2003 model (one with ALH rotary pump engine) will save you a lot of the grief of the newer, more complicated versions. I had a 2002 Jetta, and loved the engine/drivetrain. Good quality, diesel specific, 5w40 synthetic is a must. Timing belt changes are critical, as well. Best learn how to remove/clean your intake as well, since it will invariably clog up with vile black goo. Yes, this is saving you the trouble of owning a >2003 model with the further oil restrictions & additional quality issues.
And, of course, since it’s a VW, the windows will fall into the doors, the locks will quit working, and you can count on a recall every couple of years.
And the Immobilizer system is worthless. Mine was stolen out of my driveway last June. Found stripped 2 days later. The alarm never even went off. Thus ended my 8 years of VW ownership.
I drive a Mazda3 now.
Ouch, Sajeev! The MR2 Spyder is absolutely reliable save for the pre-cat issues with the early models. An 03+ car that PG would consider does not have the pre-cat problem. These have Celica/Corolla drivetrains (same engine and transmission) and are supremely reliable. Orders of magnitude more reliable than an S2000 or 350Z. It’s probably the most reliable sportscar you can buy save maybe a Miata. Buying thrashed MR2 Spyder is like buying a thrashed Corolla. What could you really have done to it? The car is so simple and is built from proven components.
Plus, MR2 Spyders do not have a reputation for being mistreated because they never represented a good bang-for-buck ratio, especially in the later model years where prices increased and sales dropped off to almost nothing. I’m of the firm opinion that anyone who can live with the lack of space and low power should not be turned away from at least test driving one. They are such great cars that so few end up enjoying. Plus for the DIY-ers, 2ZZ/6-speed/LSD swaps can be made a bolt-in project with a couple hundred bucks in off-the-shelf parts from MWR. Just make sure you don’t buy one with the electronic clutch… no matter what.
“It’s time for wake up call that redefines fun: a car gives you the giggles without burning through money, getting you stranded/fired, etc.”
This is like an exact description of why people by MR2 Spyders. They’re as reliable as Corollas (practically built out of them), they use small, cheap tires, and will get 30MPG even while driving the piss out of them! Plus they’re an absolute blast to drive. Very disappointed in you Sajeev! Hopefully PG will be smart enough to do his own research where he’ll quickly find that the 04/05 models have virtually no reliability problems.
I agree I think the Spyder would make an excellent car for those looking for something different sporty, reliable and doesn;t need much space, A friend of mine has one and loves it, his is 2004 and I think he has had no issues with it, his is only a summer play toy and most of them I have seen are the same thing unlike the s2000 which I see tons of kids driving (and crashing) all the spyders i’ve seen were Middle age crisis toys or secretary cars, I think this is due to the low power and slightly odd looks.
Ditch the WRX for sure. Subarus in general are not ultra-robust, and anytime to pack a bunch of go-fast modifications into a beast the durability goes down, even if it is a factory hot rod.
If you really must go for the “sporty” thing, I would look at a Mustang. Surely it will be less costly to keep in good condition than are most of the alternatives.
Funny you should mention a Mustang – I have a friend who is a mechanic and he claims that Subarus are much easier and cheaper to maintain than Fords. Don’t know if that’s true it’s just the opinion of one mechanic.
As a Subaru owner who has wrenched on my own rides for years, I don’t find the Subaru any better or worse than any other car.
There is not much to point to except the boxer engine layout, which means harder to change plugs, headgasket, and a bit more complicated timing belt.
What makes a car easier to work on than another? They are so similar these days. Brakes, wheel bearings, suspension, oil changes, etc are all pretty similar.
The 2004-2006 Pontiac GTO is also an intersting used sports car. It comes from the same roots as the G8 GT. It is a rebadged Holden Monaro, which was essentially a coupe form of the Holden Commodore the G8 came from. There are plenty relatively low mileage examples in your price range. The 2004 models had GM’s 5.7L V8, and the final two years upgraded to a 6.0L, but also added vestigal hood scoops (in typical Pontiac Fashion). Given that you now have a WRX muscle may not be your thing so I would also suggest the Saab 9-2X, which is a rebadged last generation WRX. It looks better (IMO), and is more likely to have been driven softly and cared for. I base the last staement on the Saab owners I know. GM didn’t make many of them so a good low-mileage Aero (performance) example will take some work to find, but before mentioning it I checked a few websites and managed to quickly find a black 2005 Aero with 29K miles for about $16K. Sticking with Saab, the uncertainty surrounding the brand has made lightly used 9-3’s a good value. There was refresh done in 2008 and as a result 2007’s with either the very adequate 2.0T or turbo 2.8L V6 Aero versions can be found with low mileage within your price range. More recent Aero models are available with AWD (Saab calls it XWD I believe) and offer more power, as tourque steer is not an issue, but those will run into the $20K range.
Not even close. The GTO is based on the Monaro platform, came with an LS1 or LS2 engine and 4-speed auto or 5-speed manual.
The G8 is based on the Zeta platform, came with an all aluminum L76 or LS3 engine with 6-speed auto in all L76 models and optional 6-speed manual with the LS3. Only 1,829 built with the LS3, about 60% of those had manuals.
There are very few parts that come from the same bin, or interchangeable between the two.
With that said, you can pick up a 2004 LS1 GTO very CHEAP as no one wants the LS1 version, as if a 5.7L V8 isn’t enough umpf. They are darn fun car to drive, parts are pretty readily available along with upgrades.
Oh, I like the GTO option! Carmax shows an ’04 w/ 67k for $15.5 (and no doubt you can get better deals than CarMax). You’re trading handling & AWD for horsepower and RWD goodness. Similar sizes, so you won’t have that “I’m driving a boat” feeling. Definitely a different car, but could be a lot more fun and should be a lot easier to keep running!
I wouldn’t waste your time looking for a G8… great cars, but if you find one in that price range, it’s going to have the same kind of history as your WRX… beat-up and in questionable condition.
What you need is a “regular” car. Something that is maybe a little sportier than normal, but not so much it has too many “special” parts. That way you won’t have any issues with problems that can’t be fixed because the car is rare. You need something mainstream so when you take it in for service, the mechanic does the same fix he did to the other 3 he worked on that day. I would think a WRX would be great, but I know your mind won’t get over that!
A Civic Si sounds good, though still a bit special with the parts. Maybe something like a Mazda 3s, or even a Miata is great as there are plenty of them around. Maybe a Chrysler Hemi powered product, Mustang or Camaro. Straightforward stuff. Get away from odd rarities like mid-engined Toyotas if you aren’t prepared to do your own research and take wrench into hand.
Sounds like another typical Subaru experience. Bravo for the honesty. I blew through $8500 on my ’99 Outback Lemon in 30k miles. Can you top that PG?
A few years back when I was car shopping, the WRX was on my shortlist. Along with that, a used C5, Mazdaspeed3, Civic Si, VW Golf GTi, and MINI Cooper. I ended up getting a 2005 MINI Cooper S, lightly optioned.
The MINI’s been reliable and fun. I must be one of the lucky ones.
Thanks for the advice, Sajeev, and everyone on here. I now have 72,000 miles on the ‘Rex; I know I’m going to have to part with her eventually. It’s going to be tough to do, since they’re such fast, capable, practical cars. About a year after I finished college, I bought this car – it was the first one I bought myself.
With a little more experience under my belt now, I’m wishing I hadn’t bought it, or at least gotten one that I knew to be more mechanically sound. This one had too many red flags I ignored because I was in love with it.
As for me, the realities of life have crept up on me, and I don’t think a two-seater is going to do it. I’ll probably trade in for an MS3, which I recently drove and really liked. I also drove a Genesis 2.0 and a 2011 Mustang V-6 but found them to both to be snoozemobiles.
I also really love the GTI, but that’s a whole other set of mechanical nightmares I wouldn’t touch with a 10-foot pole…
Can’t go wrong with a MS3. If you can find a used RX8 you should take one for a test spank. They can be found on the cheap, relatively speaking, seat four (barely) and a blast to drive. Hard to beat its handling bang for the buck.
1st gen TSX with a manual box, I/H/E, Hondata reflash, coilovers, sway bar and pads. Done and done.
Okay, I’m going to have to step and disagree with Sajeev (it doesn’t happen often). We just sold our 2002 X5 last year and it was as reliable as the sun. Drove it for 80k and spent exactly $230 on repairs, period. Not out of warranty repairs—all repairs. Not sure that I’ve ever owned a vehicle as reliable.
Second, my current daily driver is an ’07 Mazdaspeed6 with 45k miles. Remove references to Subaru and WRX in the OP’s question and it would be close to my experience with the ‘Speed6. The dealers suck (at least in my area) and Mazda NA’s after sale support is pretty bad as well (failed wheel bearing, failed control arm bushings—only barely out of warranty—my request for covering JUST the cost of the parts was denied). I’ve been to the dealer four times since the middle of November because crap keeps breaking. To top that, just read through the forums about the Zoom Zoom Boom phenomenon of the DISI motors. My advise to you if you have a ‘Speed6 on your short list is to cross it out quickly and move along… I’ll be using the fact that we’re having a second kid as an excuse to get out of this car ASAP.
Ever drive an MR2? I found a beauty last summer at a nearby Toyota dealership. Low mileage, stored in winter. The owner had just traded it in and it hadn’t even been detailed by the dealer, but it looked new. My pupils dilated, so the sales guy gave me the keys. My verdict: It would be a great third car for use when you simply wanted to get away from everybody. That mid-mount motor right behind your head is L O U D. And not pleasantly so. I thought it might quiet down on the highway, but it was only a 5-sp, so rpm in 5th gear was kinda busy. Still, I went back a couple days later, and a guy in PA had spotted it and bought it w/out further ado.
I am also an MR2 Spyder owner, and I think you are wrong. We were shopping for a Celica, and couldnt find one that hadnt been trashed by some teenager. When we started looking at the MR2 Spyder, we found tons of them that were extremely well cared for, very low miles, and almost every one was bone stock. The typical buyer seemed to be older and more affluent, and they only had the MR2 as a weekend or 2nd car. I still see many available, all in the same good condition. They still are not very well known or popular, so deals can be easily found. The MK1 and MK2 MR2 was a different car, and much more liked by the tuners/ricers. THOSE are the ones that are hard to find unmolested.
Yes, the pre-cat problem plagues some Spyders, mostly the early years. Its worthwhile to have them checked. Other than that, they have the same engine as a Celica GT or Corolla, for better for for worse. It isnt the MOST reliable engine Toyota ever produced, but its not bad. And someone above mentioned, there really isnt much to go wrong. Dont get the SMT, they were trouble, and the regular stick shift is much more fun to drive. Some parts can be hard to find, but they are usually cheap. Even replacement engines and trannys are cheap and plentiful, if it comes to that. I will probably never sell ours… its so fun, so simple, gets a lot of attention. Its a poor mans Lotus Elise!
All the other cars you mentioned are impossible to find in unmolested shape. The Civic, MS3, Mustang GT, Cobalt SS are all favorites of teens and almost always abused. I agree with you on the Miata and the Vette… good choices… and a Mustang if you can find one is a good choice for fun on the cheap (not the V6, whoever mentioned that above is crazy!).
All that being said, as much as I love our MR2 it isnt the car for our subject. It makes a terrible daily driver. I think he should consider a regular Mazda3. You can find them used, you can find stick shifts, and they are extremely fun to drive and very reliable.
Well, as a former WRX STI owner… a used one can be bad news – you never know what the previous owner did to it or how they drove it. A salvaged title one could be way worse. I loved my STI, but I bought it new. Either buy it new, lease one, or get a Certified Used one.
Mine had almost 70k before I traded it in for something different, but it ran wonderful with no problems. It eats tires and brakes, but solid otherwise. And it is a hell of a blast to drive.
He bought a used WRX with a salvage title and it has problems? Really?
News – any car with a salvage title is going to have issues.
Some issues are not big deal, but a restored salvage title car is the most risk. You have to see the car in its original (salvage) state to get a true picture of what’s happened. I’ve restored some vehicle with salvage titles, and may had minor body-panel damage and/or just interior trim missing. I’ve seen major smash-ups with clean titles. There appears to be no rules of how and when to deem a car ‘salvage.’ The inspection that changes the car from a salvage title, to a repair title (to allow it to be licensed) is more of a check to make sure you paid for the repair parts, and they are not stolen. In the best case, a salvage-title vehicle will save you 30% or more on a car, but clearly, it’s not for the hands-off, general public.
For that budget, buy a better WRX, since you like it.
If you are driving that much, maybe you should move closer to work. I have personally arranged this for myself beginning next week (I actually moved work closer to me though). I will cut my 30-35 min commute to 5 minutes each way. Times 5 days a week. Times 52 weeks a year. 260 hours a year I wasn’t being paid for I get back, plus gas and depreciation, and sanity. That is SIX AND A HALF WEEKS. A MONTH AND A HALF OF WORK. I don’t know about you, but I sure don’t like not being paid for that time.
If that is not possible you should get something that eats mileage and time and costs next to nothing.
GM W-Body with the supercharged 3800 (or regular). Suspension needs replaced at 100kish. Parts are cheap, do it yourself ($800ish). Beware the rusted models. Supercharged and regular models need revised intake gaskets installed to prevent coolant going in the sump and spinning the bearings. Big performance community, a lot of these cars go to high miles and are replaced with another of the same.
98-02 Honda Accord. I would get the V-6 coupe. There was a discussion about that here the other day I believe.
GTO/CTS-V.
Some of the comments are better than others. As a former Mazda3 owner who was soooo pissed about not buying a used WRX and then the MS3 coming out right after I bought mine….AND trading my pristine GS-R Integra for the brand new 3…I cannot recommend the MS3 if you can’t handle the WRX (not knocking the Speed3, just saying it’s a similar animal but with newer and more expensive tech). They have their own set of turbo and engine problems. The Subaru has been around a lot longer, the engine and the tools to work on it and the drivetrain are known quantities/evils. They have issues but most cars do. You got one that needs a little bit of work. Nothing you listed seems particularly excessive or retarded. There are a few things in there that are odd but you bought a previously wrecked car for a good deal…you usually pay one way or the other. Hurts more if you pay a mechanic. If your clutch lasted almost 75k miles…um, that isn’t terrible. IMO clutch life expectancy is 75k-100k. It is a wear item…first owner probably didn’t know how to drive. I greatly shortened the life of the clutch in my ’09 because I drove it with giant boots for 2 days and missed TWO whole shifts. That is just how it goes.
Nobody has mentioned it yet to my surprise: You bought the first model year of a new car design. All new models have teething problems of some sort (build quality, lots of recalls, tire wear, etc.). Everybody knows you don’t buy the first model year, especially used, especially wrecked.
Don’t know if you do your own wrenching or if you have a lift or access to a lift….IMO this makes a HUGE difference in car ownership and your relationship with your car….your cost becomes the parts only. If I screw up a job and have to buy the part again I can usually try 2 or 3 times before I even equal the cost of paying someone else to do it, and I gain experience, and it’s usually done correctly (It’s only taken me 3 tries once, every other time I do fine).
Also good to buy a car people like to race/mod. Then there are hardened and upgraded parts for the common failure points (along with knowledge of said points), and as long as it’s a jap/american car, the parts are usually cheap.
If you owe less than you can sell the car for, but want to spend 16k on another, but can’t keep up with the repairs, I am confused….2006-2008 WRXs with waaaaay less miles on them go for 16-20k in my market…it sounds like you like your car a lot so just get a better one, you can find one in your budget. 2004-2005 STI’s are going for that much or less in my market as well if you want something more hardcore. My sister and one of my employees both picked up clean 04’s for 16k and 18k. One with 48k and the other with 42k. Well clean except for the body kit on one….
To anyone who said RSX, you are out of your mind unless you think he could live with less than a Type-S. Those are hard to find with low miles and hold their value like crazy….That is quite the step down, even buying the type S.
damn this is some of the worst advice I have ever seen.
Buy the newest GTI you can afford. Its the best cheap car you can buy period.
I love my GTI, and I do admire your passion. But even I have to admit a GTI is not the car for a guy who puts a lot of miles on his car and doesnt want to spend a lot on repairs/maintenance. Unless he wrenches his own (and it doesnt appear that he does so), he will be at the VW dealer just as much as he was at the Subaru dealer, and just as unhappy.
A regular non-turbo Mazda3 S is the best cheap car you can buy.