Back in 2003, nearly a third of the vehicles I bought were either Volvos or Subarus. An auctioneer friend of mine described these cars as ‘wanna-be’s’. Since most of the buyers of these vehicles at his uncle’s car lot seemed to all fit the bill of an aspiring Yuppie. A lot of education. A lot of debt. Very little knowledge about cars beyond the Consumer Reports and monthly car mags. These buyers were a near nuisance in the Atlanta outskirts due to their pickiness and excessive question asking. For me though it was a different story.
I loved these people. Why? Because you could easily upsell them on the records. An Outback that would usually go for around $4000 could easily hit $5500 if it came with dealer records. For a long time I focused exclusively on Volvos and Subarus that had dealer records. Volvo owners were known to be risk-averse folks and conservative drivers to boot. If the S70 or 850 had a problem? Heck, they already spent $30k+ on the vehicle. Going to the dealership was a no-brainer. Subarus were much the same way. Pricey to buy. Dealer visits for maintenance and repairs were nearly a given for the clientele. This 1998 Subaru Forester with a 5-speed and 132k had 30+ dealer visits and $6000+ in repair work over the years. Should I…
Sell: I have a little less than $2200 in it. An asking price of $3995 would likely settle into the $3500 range after negotiations. The car is in really top shape. No paint fade. The head gasket was already done five years ago and 30k miles ago. Plus it’s incredibly difficult to find a Forester with a 5-speed in metro-Atlanta. This area may well be the most slushbox oriented place in America. No one knows how to drive a stick out here unless they’re from North Georgia or a non-native. The sell would give me a quick healthy profit. So that’s definitely in the cars.
Lease: I have only financed a couple of Subarus during the past two years. The first was he exact same Forester. But an automatic with about 45,000 more miles. That one went for $3995 and all the payments were made in good order. The other was a 1998 Outback that became a chronic pain in my axe. The car was a leaky, weepy mess of oils and the older owner who had a bad mechanic and fixed income couldn’t handle it. I took the vehicle back, gave her a Mercury Sable, and sold the Subaru for a cheap cash price. This particular Subaru I am less concerned about financing. If I did it would be $700 down $60 a week for 24 months.
Rent: That earlier mention about the unpopularity of stickshifts? Renting a car with a handshaker is a very tricky business. I have only rented two of them over the past a year. A 1993 Corolla that may yield 4k in rental and finance profit when it’s all said and done. Plus a 1994 Prism that hasn’t quite yet found a long-term keeper. The Corolla only had two rental customers. Both were folks well over 40 and more interested in commuting costs than sportiness. The Forester would appeal more to younger folks. As an automatic, perhaps it would work. As a stickshift, it could easily become a pricey money pit.
Keep: Once every 10 years or so Atlanta has a serious snowstorm. So I don’t really need all wheel drive. Even at those times I just simply drive a front wheel drive vehicle with good tires. My wife doesn’t enjoy driving sticks since she’s in the ‘chauffeur’ phase of mommyhood. The Forester is a nice vehicle. But compared to a 1st gen Insight, for a frugal enthusiast like me, it just doesn’t add up. I’m already sworn to the altar of saving money and flipping the bird to the Russian mafia and Arab dictatorships. The Roo’ will find a good home. But it just won’t be mine.
So should I sell for a quick and easy buck? Finance since it already has an army’s worth of dealer records? Rent in the hopes that it finds a potential long-term keeper in the process? Or keep it since the AWD will help me in the .1% of the time I may need it?
Seems like selling would be the best bet for this car. I think renting a stick-shift vehicle is a dicey proposition. Not only there are few takers, even worse, there are takers who really can’t drive stick, just attracted by the lower rental price, and would ruin the car in relatively short order. Then you’d have to do some extensive repair to continue renting or sell it in the future. Plus if you are patient, there will be buyers who are specifically looking for a manual transmission, and would be willing to pay a bit more, simply because there’s no other alternative available!
I was somewhere north of Elijay on some unmaintained trail that veered off of a fireroad when I spotted a Forester similar to this one. The occupants appeared to be camping, but I wasn’t really sure so I kept on going since I was told at the local bike shop that there were lots of rolling meth shacks out there.
I guess what I’m suggesting is that you should try using your AWD a bit more often. You’ll get to meet some colorful locals if you venture out far enough.
Barring that, you might be able to sell it to somebody for good coin a bit further “up north”
If you were
A) in California, and
2: it was an automatic,
# I’d buy it.
Sell it. Stick it on Craigslist in the snow belt states (CO, UT, VT, etc.). My 1997 Outback was one of the most unreliable vehicles I’ve owned (out of 25+ cars). The check engine light came on every other week, it sucked a valve and don’t even ask how to change the spark plugs. No more Subarus for me even though Colorado is the number one market.
Change the spark plugs when you rebuild the engine. That’s what I did.
Changing the spark plugs isn’t really that hard at all. I’ve even done it with the engine still rather hot, which isn’t so bad wearing gloves. Once you find the correct combination of plug socket and wobble extensions for a 1/4″ ratchet with a cheater pipe handle it’s a piece of cake!
twotone, craigslist ads from out-of-market sellers are not only frowned upon, but are usually flagged off within minutes of being placed, especially in the cars and trucks category.
“Frowned upon” implies simply disliked. Out of area ads are expressly prohibited. “Local only” is one of craigslist’s core principles.
I just waved goodbye to Stephanie as she hit the road for a 550 mile trip to CA in our 2000 Forester. $6k in repairs?? Ours has 135k miles, and total repairs have been no more than $1k since new (two rear wheel bearings, one front axle shaft, timing belt replaced, two sets of front brake pads; that’s it). It’s been utterly reliable, and incredibly cheap to run. It does clatter with piston slap on cold mornings, like a diesel, but that stops after a few blocks. It’s a keeper.
That caught my eye too: “132k had 30+ dealer visits and $6000+ in repair work ”
Holy cow. It sounds like my old, 1999 Outback pile of sheesh-crap. Subaru “reliability” is just too spotty in the last decade or two. My 2002 full-size GM truck has $ZERO repairs needed out or warranty, ZERO dealer visits, at 100k miles. I’d rather pay for gas than repairs any day.
My ’98 Outback (now sold) was very reliable from 147k – 214k miles (when I sold it). I did the cooling hoses for around $400 at 158k miles and did the timing belt & tensioners and water pump and a couple other things at 208k miles for $1500. Other than that, it was tires, brakes, and other normal consumables. The previous owner had done the head gasket at 140k miles for $1500 and put a new clutch in at 90k miles.
My wife’s Outback has been great too. 2000 model, did the timing belt at 110k for $1000, and everything else has been routine maintenance and consumables (which haven’t added up to much).
Subarus aren’t Panthers in terms of the abuse they’ll tolerate with minimal maintenance, but from the vitriol directed at them on this site, one would think that they were worse than German moneypits like the BMW X3/X5 and any Audi.
@Sam.
Show me a stock Panther that can do this:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/travel/1103_subaru_outback_through_the_outback/index.html
i think the key here is dealer service. frankly, i avoid dealer service except when i hit a major mile mark. i’m not saying they’re crooks but they do have a way of finding stuff that an honest indy mechanic would just tell you to keep an eye on….
the other thing that cracks me up about subarus is the way they hold up in resale value. as a new car, i think the forester is good value. used, it is way over-priced.
You’re not taking dealer rates into consideration. Rear wheel bearings? $400. Half shaft? $400. Engine out timing belt? $1,000. Two sets of front brakes? $500. Throw in 135K worth of oil changes, inspections, spark plugs, dealer supplied tires, bulbs, coolant flushes, a couple head or foglight lenses, and you’re talking about serious money. A good mechanic with an engineering degree from UVA basically told me that Subarus aren’t much better long term than Audis because of their engine pulling requirements.
@CJ. The first time I pulled an EJ Subaru engine it took me a few hours to pull it and even less to put it back in, and that was without following any kind of directions. Doing it again would probably take less than an hour. They’re actually remarkably easy and fun engines to work on. Way easier than any of the inline 4 cylinder or V6 Toyota engines I’ve ever worked on or rebuilt.
@CJinSD Subies aren’t that expensive to maintain and repair. I don’t know what your friend was talking about when he said engine pulling requirements. Subies have about the easiest engine to R&R since the original Beetle. But the only reason to pull it would be to do the clutch. Yeah they claim you can’t do the head gaskets with the engine in the vehicle but that is bull designed to be able to charge you more as I’ve done a few in the car.
Back when people were using Beetles for transportation, I saw more of them with their engines pulled than all other cars combined, before, during, or since. My next door neighbor was a true believer whose family had 3 Beetles and two buses. Easy isn’t the same thing as fast or cheap by today’s standards. When it comes to the Subarus, no shortcuts matter when you get the work done by the dealer. Most dealers do work by book rate. It doesn’t matter that they have a mechanic who does the same thing 8 time a day with each one being billed for 4 hours.
CJinSD: That $1k was for indie shop for those repairs: $500 for timing belt and water pump, even though the pump wasn’t actually bad; the rear wheel bearing replacements cost $170 each; the front axle about $200. The brake pads I did myself (20 minute job). I avoid dealers like the plague.
CJ, I take the Subaru in my household to an independent Subaru-only shop (advantage of living in the Seattle area, there are so many Subarus around here that marque specialists can stay in business). Their labor rates for given jobs work out to be 20-30% lower than the dealer, and they do quality work. I’ve only been to the Subaru dealer for oil changes (my local dealer has an insane deal for Castrol synthetic oil changes, and they work on Saturdays).
And compared to an Audi? Well, Subarus don’t simultaneously grenade their high pressure fuel pumps and camshafts like the VW/Audi products with the 2.0T engines do. “Truth in Engineering”, indeed. http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2792882
Paul Niedermeyer,
You were shocked by $6,000 in receipts and offered your repair bills. I was merely pointing out that it is possible that this owner had no more trouble than you did, merely that paying dealer rates and including 27 oil changes and other routine maintenance and service item replacements brings the total into sight.
Sam P,
The turbo VWs are a bad joke. I was thinking more of the V6s and V8s with their buried alternators and compressors. I also wasn’t suggesting that the dealer is where to maintain your car after the warranty ends, merely pointing out that this article was about a dealer maintained high mileage car and the receipts total reflected it.
Paul; I have no comment on the Subaru in question, other than Steve should sell it. I’m just glad to see you post on TTAC – I hope you won’t be a stranger here, either, even with your new website.
$6k in repairs doesn’t surprise me for a 98-era car. Our 99 Legacy SUS (currently dead-in-driveway with half-pulled down heads, attempting to change head gaskets in the car – possible, but frightfully difficult) was owned by my in-laws. It needed a differential (can’t remember which) sometime before 90k due to my bro-in-law replacing only 2 popped tires from a northern VT pothole incident, which IIRC the dealer in Richmond, VA covered under warranty. It needed a new auto trans at 99,990 covered under the 100k extended warranty. After ~120k I did a knock sensor and a radiator fan relay. If I ever finish the head gaskets it’ll need a front suspension rebuild due to bad inner tie rod boots and a questionable compliance causing outer tie rod/brake shield contact under hard cornering that the last dealer I had it to couldn’t diagnose.
@CJinSD: A good mechanic with an engineering degree from UVA
As a Virginia Tech alum, I’m always glad to see it when our rivals from up the road are able to make good use of their UVA engineering degrees.
Considering my experience with Subarus I’d say it wasn’t really good advice, though. Dealers are dealers and will do whatever it takes to make the most money. My parents’ Forester had a pinhole leak in the clutch line and the dealer (under warranty, thank God) billed Subaru for a new clutch master and slave cylinder and labor the first time they ‘fixed’ it. For some odd reason they didn’t throw in a new $25 clutch line until the car came back with the same problem. Otherwise they’ve had three with no big problems. I’ve had two Imprezas that both were at or over 100,000 miles and other than the timing belts were pretty easy to maintain.
xyzzy,
I graduated from the school of mass murderers and dog fighters myself, back in 1993 when graduating wasn’t automatic. A beheading on campus would have been news back then. My friend now has an engineering lab job, but he still builds BMWs out of junk in his spare time. He worked his way through school wrenching on imported cars, essentially self-taught as a result of highschool Peugeot ownership.
+1 xyzzy, another Hokie here myself
CJinSD: my freshman year, 97/98, there was one notable death on campus where a girl fell a substantial number of floors from Slusher Tower. It was notable because my parents called me two days later to ask what I knew about it because there weren’t many details in their DC/Balt area news, and I hadn’t heard about it. To this day I can’t recall if she fell or jumped, but only that it happened and the rest of the world knew before people across campus did.
Can’t give any sales advice, but 7 or 8 years ago we bought a red Forrester. The ex still has it. Why? We were moving to a mountainous region, and needed a wagon (SUV was not on the short-list). We looked around and everyone in town was driving Subaru. And it wasn’t just women with short hair wearing flannel shirts, either, although there were more than a few of them, too. Serviced regularly, it’s been a decent car.
” No one knows how to drive a stick out here unless they’re from North Georgia or a non-native. ”
Driving a stick shift in Metro Atlanta gets really tiresome. Try it on I-75,85 or 285 in rush hour sometime.
I had to laugh at your description of the average Subaru/Volvo buyer because it pretty much fit me to a tee. Too funny.
Don’t keep the vehicle. You don’t need it and you sound too comfortable with yourself to be a ‘wanna-be.’
I’d sell it. There are likely plenty of ‘graduate’ students and similar folk who would fall for a Subaru like this, especially with the records, and likely with little effort on your part. It’d probably be a good vehicle for a person with an ‘academic’ background, image and all.
Yeah, I’ve heard the spark plugs on the flat four are a bear to change, and I think they’re supposed to be done every 30k or 60k. Sounds like a nice car other than that.
Doing the plugs on a Subie are easier than many modern vehicles, yes you need a long extension but it’s better than having to remove the intake like on some V6s.
Sell, that was an easy one. After the snowstorm that hit the South recently, that shouldn’t be hard to do.
I’d sell. Many years ago I worked for a Rent-A Wreck franchise. I suspect your customer demographic is in that range. We quickly learned that standard transmission cars were hard to rent out and easily broken. More than one customer rented one from us for the specific purpose of teaching thier teenager to drive a stick without frying the clutch in thier “good” car.
A well maintained subie should be an easy sale, even in a place where it never snows.
Seems like the answer is always “Sell”.
Stick means it’ll be hard to lease of rent. you do not need it yourself. I’d sell it and profit off the dealer records – that sounds like a magic cash deal.
Heck, I’m only ~100 miles away, I’d buy it if I hadn’t already picked a beater commuter last fall. I always thought the Forester was a pretty good, practical little vehicle, and it’d be borderline fun with a 5 speed. If it’s as clean and well maintained as you describe, it’s a great bargain for somebody.
Our ’98, bought well used with 58K, never let us down, but needed valve cover gaskets-a $400 job!! Also went thru front brakes, rear wheel bearings and various other minor jobs. The 98’s had 1st year bugs as well, such as master cyl. defect, oil seal leaks, and speedo. freeze. At least they escaped the hd. gskt. fail.
If you keep, expect to have to spend some money on axles, etc. These cars drive like little tanks, tho, and seem unstoppable!
The Cars are great.
But, the dealerships in PA have resorted to out right fraud.
I smelled gas.
I was told my car, which has been serviced and maintained for 10 years, needed a new $3000 engine.
The local garage tightened the fuel injectors.
I recommend you dump it and never look at Subaru again.
That Forester in the PR photo is almost identical to my ’98 (except mine has kayak racks) which currently has about 155K on it. Have dealt with many of the issues TAP mentioned. Other than that, it’s still going strong. Glad I went for the 5-speed too. Aesthetics and ‘modern amenities’ aside, I really haven’t felt compelled to take on car payments again (and at this moment, can’t) so I’m hoping it hangs in there for some time to come.
If ever there was a case for selling on eBay Motors, this is it.
A 5-speed Subaru Forester with records will fetch bukubucks in the Rocky Mountains and Northeast snow corridor. Which is, as you read this, full of snow.
There is someone right now willing to drop quick cash money on a manual Subie.
I’m a huge fan of these reliable litte quirkmobiles. Can’t stand the squeaks when I’m in them (and they all squeak), but other than that, always had great luck with them.
Based on all the repair comments this Subie is definitely a SELL.
On a related subject…
Why even consider buying a high mileage used car? The cost spread between a low mileage example and high mileage car is not worth the repair costs, inconvenience, and your time.
If the vehcle cost is too high, it is better to drop back a few years to afford a lower mileage car.
Just buy a vehicle with less than 40,000 original miles, period, the end. Less is even better, I prefer less than 30,000.
Change the fluids regularly and sell it when it reaches the first sign of a costly repair or external rust. That is usually around 120,000-160,000 miles.
Then start the buy-sell cycle over again.
My father buys at 50,000 miles or less, and dumps right around 100,000 to 120,000 miles. He’s been a hard core used car buyer since the early 1970s.