The analysts RL Polk prove just how hot All Wheel Drive is right now, demonstrating that over a third of all vehicles sold in October and November of last year were equipped with AWD. Even more interesting: last Summer didn’t see the typical seasonal drop in AWD-equipped model sales. Polk’s Tom Libby breaks it down
At the make level, every ongoing make except four enjoyed an increase in AWD/4WD penetration in the September – November 2010 time period when compared to the same time period in the prior year. And the five largest makes based on retail registrations (Toyota, Ford, Honda, Chevrolet and Nissan) all experienced increased AWD/4WD take rates, led by Nissan (up 25%) and Toyota (17%). Lastly, in the 11 months of 2010 for which registration data are available, the two makes with the highest AWD mix among all those that offer both cars and light trucks, Subaru and Audi, have substantially out-performed the industry, with retail registrations up 21% and 20%, respectively, versus the industry gain of 7%.
Everyone doesn’t need AWD, but plenty of people want it… and it’s no coincidence that the two brands most closely associated with AWD (Audi and Subaru) are on sales tears right now. But will AWD continue to climb? Gas prices could put a crimp on the AWD party, but assuming for a moment that gas prices stay flat, where would the AWD fleet mix top out? Will the AWD mix ever hit 50 percent? More?
I would say an honest 80-85% of people that own awd vehicles would be just fine in front drivers with seasonally appropriate rubber… such an overrated feature.
One photo says it all:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/two2tone/pb-110225-suv-jwphotoblog900.jpg
Says, “Women shouldn’t be allowed to drive” to me.
Maybe her husband is still sitting behind the wheel while she calls AAA? Or since she got out of the car, perhaps to speak without being overheard, she’s calling a divorce attorney?
I just had a long conversation with a non enthusiast. They are trading in an MDX lease and downsizing. She was aghast that her husband was considering a Camry or such as she “has to have 4wd”. We too have an MDX and I explained it was equal to my 2wd rwd with snows. I basically backed up her husband’s logic that a set of snows were all they needed. I even explained that SAAB and Volvo till recently were mostly 2wd, and it snows a lot in Scandinavia.
No Effect..The belief that I NEED awd overcomes sanity or logic. What mama wants….
AWD is an overhyped feature that has simply been in lockstep with our gadget-obsessed culture.
It offers inherently higher initial costs, higher operating, and higher repair costs. It does nothing to improve the driving skills of those who buy it; in fact, it probably dulls the skills of many because it masks conditions that a good driver would normally compensate for with ease.
Additional safety and flexibility? Sure, but I don’t need it where I live and for what I do. A set of four knobbies on the xB gets me wherever I need to go in western PA during winter.
I agree. For most it’s just another gadget on today’s fashionable ‘must have’ list.
I considered buying an AWD when we lived in out east (a fair share of snow and plenty of hills–almost bought a Forester). If we had stayed there I probably would have purchased one by now, but in our current home we have absolutely no need of it (though you’d never say it from the ridiculous number of AWD’s around here).
Totally overrated and a waste of money unless you tow a boat and don’t want to get stuck on a slippery ramp. Other than that AWD/4WD does not help you stop any better on the relatively few snow days we have. As a New Englander I know of what I speak.
I live south of the Mason Dixon. Never driven anything here that wanted more than 2WD with snow tires. Most years you wouldn’t even want more than 2WD with all seasons.
However being in a place with a foot of snow a year the chances of me (or anyone else) going through the hassle of swapping tires twice a year are zero.
As such the real world choice is between 2WD with all seasons and AWD with all seasons. AWD won’t keep you out of the ditch but it’ll slowly get you up unplowed residential streets. Or out of parking spaces without a shovel.
That convenience offends the people who think cars should begin and end with small diesel hatchbacks with three pedals. But it’s usually worth the asking price to me.
I’ve lived most of my 40+ driving years in snow country (CT, MA, Moscow and now CO). I’ll take RWD and four real winter tires over AWD and all (read three) season tires any day. It snows in Germany, Switzerland and Austria and they don’t have close to the AWD penetration as the US. Americans just need to learn how to drive in winter. Back in the 1960’s we went skiing every weekend in our parents RWD Ford cars and never got stuck.
+1000
You all make valid points, but I still like the concept of AWD cars. I’ve never had problem getting where I needed to go with FWD, but I still would love to own a Subaru STi or an A4 Quattro. They’re fun.
I don’t think anyone (at least I’m not) is arguing that it isn’t a useful and convenient feature, just that it’s wildly over hyped considering the modest, situational advantages. The only practical application in most cases is getting already inept drivers going faster faster in low traction situations, something that doesn’t strike me as a good thing. 99.9% of the owners of awd vehicles will never exploit the advantage of awd at the edge.
I doubt it’ll top 40%, much less 50%. AWD costs more, with more rotating mass, more complexity, more weight. In normal use, it’s a net cost, and the coming CAFE push will penalize that extra weight.
How about the penetration of AWD in sunny states like Florida?
I’m far enough south in Florida that even the rare late night dip towards the freezing point in the middle of winter is cause for residents to panic and start throwing blankets over all of their tropical plants.
We don’t stock AWD vehicles in general (aside from the performance oriented ones such as the Ecoboost MKS/MKT/Flex or the Taurus SHO), because there isn’t a lot of demand. We occasionally get a snowbird who wants to buy down here but will take the vehicle back up north during the winter, and for them we can always factory order a car or trade one in from a dealer in northern FL or GA.
On the other hand, 4×4 trucks are big business, partly due to a lot of people around here having boats and needing to be able to pull them up slippery boat ramps, and partly because the redneck population loves that 4×4 emblem combined with a lift kit and big mud tires. F-150 sales, especially for Crew Cab trucks in the higher trim levels, trend towards 50% or more 4×4. Super Duty truck sales are probably 80-90% 4×4.
We’ve also had more interest in 4wd versions of the 2011 Explorer than in the AWD versions of the Edge or the other crossovers. Granted, the Explorer’s 4wd system is a bit more advanced and robust than most CUV AWD setups, but it still isn’t what most people would call a true 4×4 (no transfer case, etc). It seems just calling it 4wd instead of AWD makes people here more interested, which I suppose is interesting from a marketing point of view.
I find it somehow hard to believe that this stat is correct. Or perhaps we’re viewing it out of context?
I generally agree with the comments here. Though I did just buy my first AWD vehicle since a 1988 Celica years ago. Guess what? The fuel economy in my Taurus X sucks. And that’s based on the trip computer, which appears to read about one MPG too high. Thought I was getting 16.5 around town. But seems it’s actually about 15.5.
15.5 MPG?!? – Sheesh, my ’06 Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited with 33″ tires gets a hand calculated 15 MPG in stop and go driving. So much for Ford’s eco-hype.
Yikes! My ’06 Dakota Quad Cab with the H.O. 4.7 V8 averaged 16 MPG.
Some of this market penetration may be an aberration of lease rates. Here, in Los Angeles, I have neighbors who lease new SUVs (Volvo XC90 and FX35 currently) every two years. He swears that the lease cost is identical for 2WD or AWD because the higher residual value of the AWD offsets the higher initial, negotiated CAP cost of the vehicle. The additional fuel costs don’t matter to him and as a two year lessor, there are no additional costs of maintenance. Since a lot of these vehicle go out on lease, perhaps this has something to do with the take rate of the AWD in the marketplace.
If you’re hillclimbing 4WD can be useful, but how many people buy 4WDs to actually drive off-road?
All you need for snow is decent driving, good tires, and proper weight balancing around the car, when winter hits I always hear about 4WDs hitting the ditches or crashing, mostly SUVs.
I know I’m in the minority, but I have 2 Jeeps that I use for offroading. They don’t even come out of the garage in the winter – I have a FWD beater for that.
Would say that some context on the car/truck mix would help explain some of those percentages….2008, gas prices spike in the spring, mix of car sales goes up, AWD mix goes down. Same thing happens in late summer of 2009 – thanks Cash for Clunkers. Then 2010 was a good year for light truck sales – relatively stable and low gas, more truck sales, more AWD/4WD mix.
Never underestimate how much money people will pay for perceived convenience. The majority of people who think they “need AWD” would be well served by a front wheel drive vehicle with stability control and a good set of snow tires. But, few people in those areas who would benefit from snow tires bother with them. So, they spend thousands more dollars for the option up front, thousands more for fuel over the life of the vehicle and an undetermined amount of extra bucks for maintenance and repairs.
Interestingly enough, a FWD vehicle equipped as I suggest can generally out drive an all season tire equipped AWD version in the snow. It sure as bleep can outstop and out corner the AWD poser.
With our row of blizzards this year, I discovered that any pack of slow moving cars will have at the front a Honda Accord (sorry) with three season tires at the front, flashers going, and all on the traction control as it edges up the hill. This is the sort of person who demands AWD in the next car, and sadly, it is NOT the car’s fault……
Oh, and when your AWD vehicle loses it, there is usually no return….
Everything said about snow tires is absolutely true, but what percentage of car owners even know that? Or know how to change a tire? Or want to deal with two sets of tires?
(Somewhere much less than the number of people who want a stick).
How much of the “want AWD” is, in fact, “want SUV” ? A lot of people desire SUVs/CUVs for their carrying capacity and their perceived battle tank protection against other road users, and most SUVs come with AWD whether you want it or not. I would suspect Subaru’s gain is mostly due to their old car-a-like lineup being replaced by bigger SUV-a-likes. Audi purchasers are just probably ticking all the option boxes.
It’s not really “ticking all the option boxes” with Audi purchasers. There are plenty of Audi models that simply cannot be bought without AWD in the States– the A5, the S4, the higher engines of the A6, the A8, Q5, Q7, etc.
I’ve lived in the upper Midwest all my life I have never met a person who bothers to actually put snow tires on their car. Your average driver is simply not going to keep an extra set of tires and rims around to change them out whenever the weather goes bad. I’d rather pay the paltry extra sum and mpg penalty than ever have to go through that process once, let alone the dozen times a year when the weather here goes from sunny to apocalypse and back again in three days.
Having AWD allows drivers to start the car up and go, any weather, anywhere -365. Of course people are willing to pay more for that; because they’re getting more.
You don’t change your tires every time the weather goes bad, you change once in fall and once in spring. Assuming you get your tires rotated a couple times a year anyway, it’s no hassle at all, aside from storing the extra tires/wheels. I have one car with AWD, at the time I bought it I assumed snows meant studs, and I hate studs. Next time I’ll go FWD and snows, because AWD won’t help you stop. Snows will.
I generally agree with the near consensus above, but Joe Thousandaire makes an important practical point. Also, I think what may be true for a lower torque FWD does not apply in high torque/high power applications. IMHO, in those applications, AWD (especially a rear-biased system) is dynamically superior to, and just more fun, than FWD on any surface. (Although I would say that lower torque FWDs can feel awfully good dynamically — see 1st gen TSX, Mini, etc). While RWD may be dynamically superior to AWD in the dry (again IMHO), too much torque going through the rear wheels — even with excellent winter tires — can greatly hamper its abilities compared to AWD on snow/ice. Moreover, all the electronic traction doodads they employ these days to alleviate the inherent traction issues with putting the power down can actually make things much worse in the winter. I was just talking to a colleague about the relative worthlessness of his dad’s new CTS-V in just this scenario — winter tires helped, but not nearly enough — and his dad is the sort of guy who really knows how to drive (prefers 82 SC to 89 Carrerra because the G-50 transmission makes things too easy, apparently). This is an extreme example, to be sure, and anecdotal to some extent, but I have heard similar things from e.g., 335i owners. Again, relatively low torque RWD applications — 328i, for example — tend to fare much better.
Yep, people are convenience obsessed. The funny thing is, we have all of these conveniences and yet are more harried and exhausted than we were thirty years ago, according to most broad measurements of such things.
BTW, AWD doesn’t help you stop or corner. The right tires do.
My parents live in Michigan and just purchased their second Volvo station wagon. The first one came with snow tires from the previous owner and my parents religiously switch when it’s wintertime. And with the 07 V50 T5 they just purchased my mom said after some of the recent snow that she cannot wait for snow tires next winter. So people in the upper midwest do put snow tires on. And her V50 is FWD, not AWD.
“Your average driver is simply not going to keep an extra set of tires and rims around to change them out whenever the weather goes bad.”
We have two full rooms of customers’ summer tires at the dealership. We store them for free, and they will be in at least twice a year anyway so they are not inconvenienced. This is also suburban Detroit, not Buffalo. So people are willing to swap once they find out how much better winter tires are in the snow. The real issue is that most people are misinformed about so-called all-season tires. They don’t realize how good, quite, comfortable today’s studless winter tires are. Over the past couple of years I have converted many people to winter tires by just letting them drive my cars in the snow. The tire companies should be me for the advertising.
Well I live in the upper midwest (Minneapolis to be exact) and I’ve had snow tires for the past 11 years. I realized their utility when I had a 97 Miata as my only car; snow tires transformed that thing into a fun little machine in the winter.
After that I got a new 2006 Mazdaspeed 6, obviously with AWD. But the kicker is that I still use snow tires in the winter. Snows + AWD is the ultimate combination in the winter.
Do I NEED AWD?? No, but I don’t need 280 hp, I don’t need a 6 speed manual, I don’t need leather seats. I guess if we’re talking NEED, I need a Honda Fit. Just like an M5 driver spends near 6 figures on 500 hp that he doesn’t need on city streets so he can get a giggle tearing away from stoplights in the dry, so do I spend money on AWD that gives me a giggle when I can tear away from the icy/snowy stoplights, leaving that Fit to spin its tires trying to get traction.
And here on TTAC we never make fun of the M5 driver for not “NEEDING” 500 hp do we?
Depends on where you live and the type of driving you do. I live and work in the mountains of British Columbia. I bought a Subaru Forrester for my wife and equipped it with 4 snow tires on aftermarket steel rims. My job often takes me a long way from home and I like knowing that she has a vehicle that is easy to drive in winter conditions and won’t get stuck in an ice filled pothole like her old Accord sometimes did. To her driving is a chore and a car is just another appliance. Anything I can do to make the chore easier is money well spent, and provides her with freedom (and me with peace of mind) she might not otherwise have.
Yeah, I know a RWD car with good snow tires, sand bags and a set of tire chains would do as well but this isn’t 1971. The technology exists, so why not use it if you can afford it?
I don’t think anyone questions the value of AWD in the mountains of British Columbia – especially if your travels take you off the main roads.
I live in Quebec where we certainly see winter conditions of all types, but it’s not exactly mountainous. Winter tires are essential and almost universally used, but AWD certainly isn’t needed. I find it hard to understand why so many people in the south want AWD.
If I lived in the mountains of British Columbia I would choose a similar vehicle. You have already demonstrated that you know how to keep the shiny side up by choosing both and appropriate vehicle and appropriate tires for your conditions.
I bought Quattro on my A4 because its a cheap option, it doesn’t break, its not so heavy and the weight is low to ground. I get a steady 30mpg with mixed highway and city driving. I bought it for its benefit on dry and wet and snow, not for pushing a plow or pulling a boat.
I have snows on extra rims, because I want them. They are fun. Its more fun to drive in winter with snows. Who here is with me on this. I drive a nice car because its fun. C’mon people. Extra tires in garage is like extra bottles of whiskey in the cabinet.
I know, I know, I am far out there on the fringe.
Also, in the USA the A4 with stick-shift is only available in AWD. Last I checked, the A4 with stick+AWD is just about the same price as A4 with CVT+FWD, so there isn’t even a cost or weight penalty.
There are also a bunch of vehicles where the more powerful engine is AWD and the less powerful engine is FWD. On a powerful vehicle, AWD is better than FWD with respect to low speed acceleration. Audi, Subaru, and Acura fit this category.
I’m right there with you. I certainly could get by just fine with all-season tires on my 9-3 here on the coast of Maine. We get plenty of snow, but we also have more than plenty of snow plows. But snow tires mean I can drive a whole lot faster in the snow. I have no use at all for AWD though.
I’d rather walk than drive some boring appliance-mobile. Or a Panther-saurus. :-)
That’s exactly how my parents feel about their Volvo wagons and snow tires.
I thought my Subaru was more fun with all-seasons in the snow because it allowed for more hoonery. When I put the snows on, the car had way more grip, and always wanted to straighten out.
I second the all-seasons on an AWD. It is just plain more fun. My Subaru has all seasons and it’s a riot to drive in the winter. The trailer hitch adds a little more weight to the rear which make drifting it around just that much easier. Sure snows would allow it to stop better, but it definitely turn the party switch off.
I drove a 4WD with all-seasons for a couple of years during high school, so I can understand the appeal of being able to easily induce controllable wheel slippage with minimal acceleration at the touch of the throttle. But you can’t actually drive anywhere near the limits in winter on those tires because you can never be sure how much traction you’ll have. Go into a corner too hard and hit wet ice, and you’re done. Studless winter tires aren’t even very good on wet ice. To be able to drive at the limit in winter, you need good studded winter tires with good stud protrusion. You can have far more fun with studded winter tires than with all-seasons because you can do it at a higher speed with consistent and reliable traction. AWD/4WD with studded snows is the ideal winter driving setup.
I agree with everyone about snow tires. There are a couple of other advantages. I switch to a smaller wheel and higher sidewall for the winter. It gives me a better ride over pot holes and frost heaves than the larger wheel and lower profile tires. Easier on the suspension as well and the nice rims are spared the abuse. I also get a break from having to clean the brake dust off of the alloy rims in freezing weather.
Ding, another well informed car owner doing the smart thing!
That’s also true. I did the same thing on the Subaru and went down a size in wheel diameter to get more sidewall on the tires.
For the life of me, I cant understand how ANY AWDs are sold in the the south. AWDs that are driven on dry roads constantly tend to have major Ring + Pinion problems. AWD instills a sense of security when accelerating on bad/snowy surfaces, but then, youre going 10mph faster than you should be and it doesnt help you STOP at all. By and large, another huge HOAX.
In the Chicago 20″ blizzard a few weeks ago, I was one of a few people driving. FWD, diesel, half-worn M+Ss. The cops in their CrownVics and RWD Blazers were NOT moving.
I have a Subaru Outback with a 4-cyl. and 5-speed which gets about 26mpg on the highway. Pretty poor considering the overall performance of the car. I’m certain that olde tyme Subarus would allow drivers to disengage the rear drivetrain, which would improve fuel economy. For whatever reason, they now only offer full time systems. I honestly only ‘need’ all wheel drive very infrequently for ski trips or long winter road trips which probably account for less than 5% of my driving.
I think the obsession with awd is really just a subset of the suv/crossover trend that refuses to die. The perception of ‘ability’, ‘safety’ and ‘ruggedness’ is pure snake oil. Proper tires, controlling speed, and having the good judgment not to drive when things are really bad would keep 99.9% of drivers safe in bad weather, I think.
First of all, lets make it clear
– there is full-time 4×4 (most Subarus and Audis, certain Jeep models, Land-Cruisers from 80Series onwards, etc.)
– there are simple center diff-less part-time systems as found on most trucks, only suitable to go straight on low-traction surfaces,
– “automatic” part-time (regardless of what marketing types call them) systems of all sorts and shapes, from simple viscous couplings (NV247 on a Jeep GC) to fearsomly complicated ones (Acura RL or TL), where torque is applied when there is a difference in rotational speed (too little too late).
#1 is a great if costly (mechanically) addition,
#2 is crude but effective
# 3 can be easily replaced by proper tires.
Another great myth is fuel saving with all those #3 part-time systems. If you look past the commonly accepted hype and consider that unless you disconnect at hubs AND the transfer case, there will always be a great heap of shafts, bearings, cogs and oil (especially noticeable in very low temps) doing their best to slow you down – and get there share of mpg too.
I have oscillated all my driving life between FWD SAABs, RWD Mercedes and BMWs. and Full-Time 4WD (ancient Corolla, Ram and MkI Outback) – always in snowy climates. And finally ended up keeping my current 3.0R Outback. It is just so right of size, convenient, stable and totally immune to 90% of weather kinks here in the Rockies/Praries (10% for hails). And I do use it a lot on snow, gravel, mud – where its predictable and clear 50/50 torque distribution matters. I only wish it were a manual.
Acubra, that’s why you need to go for an Outback 2.5XT. After nearly 5 great years with a 1998 Outback, I swore up and down I’d get one with a stick shift and 250 turbocharged horsepower. I didn’t end up buying one but they’re amazing cars.
There are two reasons for all wheel drive.
One is severe winters where even modern snow tires aren’t enough with two wheel drive.
The other is a high powered vehicle. You can put power to the ground much better if all four wheels are working. Rear wheel drive isn’t as good and front wheel drive is terrible.
It’s getting to the point I don’t need to read the comments any more- easy to predict what the “experts” will say. I’ve had front wheel drive and rear wheel drive with snows and they are fine but I like the convenience of AWD and it does just fine with all season tires. They are quieter and handle better on dry days also. Mine is rear biased so it’s a blast when the weather is good and when it isn’t I just go with no problems.
+1
+1
I knew 90%+ would be, “people are idiots if they buy AWD, FWD with snow tires work fine and RWD is for real men.”
+1
@The Walking Eye:
This article and the other comments aren’t directed at people like you or Acubra who understand the technical differences between various AWD / 4WD systems.
The issue is that the majority of AWD buyers don’t even know what you’re talking about, and don’t care, but believe they need something called “AWD” or “4WD” to be “more safe”. And nobody here used the word “idiots” to describe such buyers.
For those who know what they need, it’s great that such a wide variety of offerings exist. But I’ll argue that much of Subaru’s recent success is derived from the perceived fear of not having an AWD car for bad conditions. But the old Subaru tagline “inexpensive, and built to stay that way” is long forgotten, and it certainly isn’t true today – in part thanks to their sophisticated AWD system.
This is the automotive version of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”…
I love my heavy AWD (Quattro) Volkswagen Passat. We’ve been through a lot together for a while mostly because I couldn’t afford the equivalent Audi. Currently, I drive my modified beast in south of the U.S.A without a problem. Most we get is a lot of rain and I do drive on gravel quite a lot. I grew up watching Audi Quattro rally cars fly around corners in the 80’s and fell in love. Let me tell you, I drive my car really hard with the shifter stuck in manual mode all day. Put some good Bilstein sport dampers on there and a quality set of Michelin tires, this baby will hang with just about anything in any weather. I’ve left BMW Z4 drivers stunned to see a big wagon fly around on wet curves.
Recently, we had an ice storm, with 2-inch thick ice sheets on the roads. It’s no fun to navigate hilly roads with glistening ice. Quattro wagon had no problems with quality all-season tires. It also had no problems stopping with the brakes and lots of additional engine braking. I even helped push my buddy’s Jaguar XJ8 up his icy driveway and into his garage with only 2 wheels having any real traction on one side. Followed that by helping the guy in front of me get up a hill after his Toyota started sliding down in front of me. Give me a heavy car with all four wheels being driven by a reliable mechanical system that can get the power down the right way. If it does nothing else, at least it’ll help me feel like a rally driver from the 80’s. The experts be damned.
Living in Minnesota, which has had 60 inches of snow so far this season, and having owned a variety of differently-driven cars, I think I can say that AWD and need can legitimately be mated. While the general gist here seems to be that AWD is not really necessary for the majority of average drivers, I think we concede that there are places where it is a necessity, and I’d hate to see this attitude applied everywhere generally.
The reason a lot of cities around the country were stymied by the greater-than-average snowfall this season is because they weren’t prepared; they didn’t have the equipment to plow roads and keep things moving. Up in Minn., there are probably more snowplows per capita than anywhere in the US, and still there are those times when a blizzard hits during rush hour and there’s just nothing to be done. The freeways are covered with six inches of the fluffy stuff and it’s time to go home. There are the mornings when you’ve been plowed into your street parking spot and only two tires are on top of not-ice…and it’s random chance whether they’re the wheels that get spin or no.
I will keep at least one 4WD/AWD vehicle in the garage. What the flatlanders here do not know is that plenty of mountain passes require non AWD equipped vehicles to chain up when going over them, even in relatively moderate weather. I’ll keep AWD and save the hassle of chaining up on the side of the road in snow/freezing rain.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/winter/faq.htm#four_wheel
“Can you explain “Chains Required”?
When WSDOT posts “Chains Required” on its highway information signs, it is unlawful for any vehicle to enter the controlled area without having chains on its drive tires. There is an exemption for four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles, provided tire chains are available for at least one set of drive tires. When WSDOT removes the Chains Required post, you are able to remove your tire chains. If you do need to put on or take off tire chains, first leave highway travel lanes.
I have a four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicle. Do I have to install chains when signs indicate that chains are required?
As long as your vehicle is equipped with traction tires, chain installation is generally not required on four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles. Under extreme weather conditions, the Washington State Patrol can mandate that all vehicles chain up, including four-wheel/all-wheel drive vehicles. WSDOT posts signs to keep motorists informed of chain requirements.”
It’s absurd that they allow an AWD vehicle with 1/8″ tread all-seasons to drive on a snowy road without chains but not a 2WD with brand new Nokian Hakka 7s!
I was selling Ford cars back when the AWD Tempo was available. Although the FWD Tempos sold well, we couldn’t give the AWD models away. Pontiac had similar issues with their 6000 STE AWD – hardly ever saw them. Funny how times change.
You’ll never get me out of my Quattro TT (and yeah, I understand all about the Haldex system, so don’t even go there) – I have been driving the Colorado high country for 35+ years, and the combination of good Winter radials and having the AWD kick in when slippage occurs has made the TT the most capable and enjoyable snow machine I have owned. The Audi runs circles around my TJ Wrangler in almost every situation save when it gets really, really deep – and even then if its fluffy powder and not heavy, high moisture-content flakes the TT will tank through no problem at all.
For me AWD is all about an increased “margin of error” (99% of the time for when the yahoo’s in SUVs get it wrong), and just plain “no worry” slick condition driving. If you have ever gotten caught in a bumper-to-bumper/start-stop cluster on the up-grade of I-70 Westbound out of Denver, you find out real fast just how nice it is to have AWD at your disposal…
I’m with TTCat. AWD increases the total traction available, though sure, it would be even better with good snows. I’ve never gotten stuck in my TT, though I’ve never actually gotten stuck in any car since my RWD ’64 Riviera back, which had snows. Part of that is in knowing when not to go out, which when I had a RWD Supra Turbo was quite often in winter.
But what no one seems to be bringing up is wet weather traction. My Supra had a tendancy to want to spin in wet weather. In only went around twice in the ten years I had it, but it sure wanted to more often. The TT has never ever gotten loose in wet weather. Of course, the downside is that the Supra was much more fun to drive. The AWD TT is just so much better that one does not have to be as competent of a driver to drive it.
We have two Subaru 2.5-liter 5-speed cars, an ’03 Legacy wagon and an ’06 Forester; we don’t tow or travel up snowy mountain passes (although we did go up Mount Washington, NH in the summer once). Two comments with respect to the issues raised above:
1. In addition to the enjoyment of taking corners quickly without squealing tires on dry roads, we feel much more secure on any kind of wet roads (especially in highway driving), not just snowy roads. I have had enough tire-spinning experiences on wet roads with both FWD and RWD cars to know the difference.
2. This winter we’ve had one enormous, destructive snowfall here in the DC area (so far); last winter there were two. We routinely drive further northeast, where they’ve had the same experience or worse. The best available science gives me good reason to think the weather is going to be crazy for many years to come, and accordingly I want to be prepared. If others think so too, I suppose this may be part of the reason that AWD vehicle sales have been growing in the U.S. if the RL Polk analysis is correct.
AWD/FWD is for people who don’t know how to drive. RWD is for people who have a brain and do not rely on fancy electronic systems to get them through a spring shower…or a flurry.
Silvy,
Your Z71 pickup (if you even own one) is 4WD. GM didn’t offer the Z71 offroad package in 2WD pickups. Not sure what you’re bragging about.
Simple Explanation for you guys. CUV hp is steadily climbing, to the point that Rav4s have 250+hp.
If you ever have the chance to drive an identical CUV FWD and AWD back to back you will understand why this stat is climbing. It has nothing to do with snow performance, and everything to do with torque steer. Many CUVs offer torque vectoring, which is activated to route power to the rear axle when accelerating and going around corners, specifically for the purpose of reducing torque steer.
I’ll certainly be the first to agree that people have no idea why the AWD feels better, but when given the chance to upgrade to a better drive for a marginal cost (usually only a couple thousand dollars) most people will pay the difference.
Why did I buy an AWD? Multiple reasons…
I like the Impreza.
I live in an area that gets snow yearly. But up until the Impreza I’d always had FWD and all-season’s and got along just fine. The AWD makes it more fun to drive in the snow and gets me through heavier stuff better.
It provides added traction year round. It’s not just a snow thing.
Until 4 months ago, I had no where to keep a set of winter tires. And had I not found a house to rent w/ a garage, that’d still be the case. Don’t have enough junk to have a storage shed. Would a FWD w/ snow tires do me as well or better? Probably, but no where to put them. Even if I did have the space, I probably wouldn’t do it.
I don’t care about how much more expensive it is compared to a Civic or Corolla. I don’t care for either of those vehicles.
To sum up: I bought what I wanted, get the benefit of added traction year round w/o needing to store tires and I have more fun in the snow than you do in your FWD.
Penetration will go over 50% for the same reason more than half of all cars have A/C (or AT) It’s just more convenient.
The cost is relatively small. On a new Equinox for example, AWD will cost $1,750, and that’s MSRP. Remember most people are either leasing or financing – the extra monthly payment is manageable. This is only a bit more expensive than buying a set of steelies and snows.
A problem with keeping extra rims/snows is that they may not fit your next vehicle. Then you have to sell them, at a loss.
For those who think Snow tires are superior to AWD, I respectfully suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. If you want better traction, by far the best way to get it is to apply drive force to the other set of wheels.
My Ranger, 2wd, is no match for my wife’s CR-V, no matter the tires on the Ranger. This was true even with the crappy OEM tires that came on the CR-V. (Crappy OEMs have been replaced with Michelin all seasons)
Of course it’s possible to compare literally thousands of combinations of 2wd/snow vs AWD/all season, and some combos of 2wd/Blizzaks will be better than some AWD/ElCheapo all seasons, but as a general principle, the best way to get traction is by powering the wheels at the other end.
A lot of people use AWD for getting around on unplowed city streets, rather than offroading in the Yukon Territories in the winter. I can see why it seems like overkill, but it isn’t. On my street people park on the street, and at least one person on every block has to park on the wrong side. AWD lets one creep along carefully between the cars.
In a time of declining municipal/county budgets I think we can expect less frequent road plowing in the future, which should translate into a higher demand for AWD systems.
As to gas prices, I don’t think they’ll have much effect on AWD demand. The penalty is rather small. If you want to know what Americans will drive when gas is “X” per gal., just look to the UK – you really think all those Brits need a Range Rover to get the kids to school?
Having said all that, I plan to get a set of rims/snows for the Ranger next year. It’s not because it’s the best way to get traction, but it’s cheaper than replacing a vehicle with that valuable “paid for” feature. But when the day comes to replace than Ranger (another 10 years or so) the replacement vehicle will have power at all four corners.
For those who think Snow tires are superior to AWD, I respectfully suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about. If you want better traction, by far the best way to get it is to apply drive force to the other set of wheels.
Snow tires are superior to AWD with all-season tires. Yes, there are some situations that warrant AWD and snows, but for most of us, it’s not needed.
I do know what I’m talking about. I live on top of a hill and dealt with several feet of snow this season. I’ve driven a lot of miles in snow in fwd, rwd, and 4/awd. You mention drive force, but don’t forget lateral and stopping traction. They’re more important.
My Ranger, 2wd, is no match for my wife’s CR-V, no matter the tires on the Ranger
Well, you forgot about one little thing called weight distribution… Which makes your point irrelevant.
Given the choice between the two, 2 really good Snow tires are unquestionably better than 4 rock-hard summer tires with AWD.
AWD doubles traction, but summer tires have a little more than zero traction, so doubling nearly zero gives nearly double zero, for zero traction under all driving conditions.
Snow tires will retain traction, which is good for steering, braking, in addition to pushing / pulling the car forward.
Of course, the best would be AWD with snow tires…
For those who think Snow tires are superior to AWD, I respectfully suggest you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I agree. Who really cares about stopping and turning anyway?
Most posters here don’t know what they are talking about.
Here in Canada, the snow fall is so heavy that before the city can do any real snow shoveling, the only way to drive is to follow the tracks left behind by heavy trucks. The tracks are typically 5~10 inches deep.
When a car decides to leave the track, it faces a real possibility of getting stuck, especially if the speed is low. A FWD Camry with real snow tires can expect to get stuck at least 3 times per winter if used as a daily driver. The tires will help with breaking for sure, but not pulling out. A Subaru with the same tires? Never stuck.
As I am writing this post, it’s -28C (-18.4F) outside. Next morning it will be -32C (-25.6F).
Agree 100%.
The question as to whether so many people should get AWD on their vehicles I leave to them. However, as anyone with half a brain should know, tires are what connect you to the road, so this apparently US idea that you buy an AWD vehicle and gaily sail off into a blizzard on summer or all-season tires is the problem.
Here in Nova Scotia, we’re going through a hell of a winter, although not so bad as the poor buggers in New Brunswick. My Legacy GT with four winter tires is just great. The VW Golf of my boss (which I like in every other way) even with winter tires all round, is just not in the same league. Wheelspin, buzz-buzz as the traction control goes to work drives me nuts. Same with my pal’s Civic. In this day and age, I regard their behavior as “unsophisticated”.
I had enough with spinning tires in winter decades ago, thanks very much, and I highly doubt the posters here who tell me all I need is FWD or RWD with snow tires have ever been in enough bad weather to make admonishing comments on my choice. That is, they’re short of experience and most probably haven’t driven a proper AWD car with appropriate tires in snow let alone owned such a car. But they seem happy to preach that it’s not required all the same. I’m sure somebody will pop out of the woodwork and say they had AWD and it was crap, blah, blah, blah. Who cares about outliers?
What does drive me nuts is that every time AWD is mentioned on TTAC, the same bunch of happy advisors immediately snap to attention and belittle it. I do not need this advice from you, thanks all the same. All it tells me is that you live in a temperate clime, are too cheap to buy the option if you live in a snowy region, or are just plain full of it and wish others to take full advantage of your “superior” knowledge.
I agree that in most places in Canada, some version of AWD/4WD is a huge benefit. If I was still living out east I would definitely have something in that regard, but where we currently live is as flat as the Prairies and we get relatively little snow compared to out east, so I can get by without it easily enough.
A FWD Camry with real snow tires can expect to get stuck at least 3 times per winter if used as a daily driver. The tires will help with breaking for sure, but not pulling out. A Subaru with the same tires? Never stuck.
My ’09 Fit is on its third Canadian winter now and at over 100,000 kms has yet to become stuck in snow. This of course is more a combination of skill and luck rather than superior design.
True, AWD is better than 2WD in such conditions and can certainly mean the difference between plowing through vs. digging the shovel out of the trunk. But I disagree that AWDs and 4WDs never get stuck— there’s always some yahoo who thinks he can cut across that snow-filled median because he has “furrr weee-all driii-aave!!” only to find that he now has to call for a tow while hoping to be out of that mess before the cops arrive and write him up.
My fleet of AWD Subaru’s shod with winter tires are stunning in the winter. During more temperate climes, I slap on all seasons and enjoy great traction on gravel or when it rains. I’m totally okay with the inherent compromises of reduced fuel economy because it’s worth it to me.
Lol at the enthusiasts saying you don’t need AWD. During the blizzard we just had, I left my Blizzak-shod xB at home and we used my wife’s Green Diamond-shod WRX instead. We would have been absolutely SCREWED during the first hours of that storm. In fact, we were one of the few cars moving. While this is an extreme case, during a normal winter in Chicago (which lasts 5 months out of the year), you will have at least one moment where you curse your 2WD car no matter what rubber is on it. That’s one less time a year that I don’t have to hear my wife complain, incentive enough to stop trying to replace her car with something more sensible. I could also argue that downshifting an AWD will stop better too, but the average joe/wife is not going to know proper technique. Pushing the gas pedal and having the car actually move is a much more useful feature than any of the techno-bs that is infiltrating the sticker price of modern cars.
Signed,
AWD, FF, and FR ice racing veteran.
Living in a place where it snows and gets really cold just sounds unbelievably awful. I don’t know how you guys can stand it.
I don’t understand why some people have no appreciation for seasonal changes and the beauty of winter.
I’m certainly not going to try and argue the Canadians — or the Americans residing in mountainous regions — out of AWD. But, I would humbly suggest to all of them that, if their winter conditions are such that AWD is mandatory, they also should buy a second set of “minus-sized” wheels and mount 4 real snows on them. The reason for this, is that I assume they want to be able to stop and turn.
However, the fuel economy and weight penalities of AWD are real, although severity of them depends upon how the AWD system is implemented. As an example, a poster above talks about his Subaru getting 26 mpg on the highway. For comparison, my ’02 Saab Aero wagon (FWD) gets an easy 30 mpg with a moderate load and the a/c running, at 65-70 mph.
My family’s interest in going to a part of West Virginia that gets over 100 inches of natural snow has meant that we have owned some sort of AWD or 4wd vehicle for a long time. However, for the vehicles we have owned since 1994, we have purchased a second set of wheels with snow tires on them. The previous two vehciles (a Jeep Wagoneer and an AWD Toyota Previa) would get stuck with all-seasons; although a set of cable chains on the rear wheels of the Previa did the trick — albeit requiring speeds to be low.
My youngest daughter took our Saab wagon to Madison, WI, where she attends college. With four new all-seasons, she reported that she was “all over the place” in the snow. So, I bought four new snows for the existing set of spare wheels that I had. Now, she says everything is fine.
Another impediment to snow travel, I find, is traction control systems. On the Saab, the Pilot and even my Z3, traction control systems produce worse performance on snow. (The z3 has a limited slip differential and has all-seasons on it.)
The other observation I have is that vehicle weight matters a lot. Initially, I thought I could get away with all-seasons on my Honda Pilot (because we don’t go up to West Virginia much any more), but my wife felt pretty uncomfortable driving it in the first couple of snows we had (and I’m speaking about stopping and turning ability, not getting stuck). Of course, the thing weighs over two tons. By contrast, the Z3, at 2700 lbs. is surprisingly effective in snow, as long as it’s not too deep.
I live in Canada and own a 2003 Jimmy 4WD. Most of the time its sits in my driveway, and uses uses zero fuel. However when I need it its very nice to have.
BTW I’ve lived in Ontario my whole life and learned my winter driving skills over 40 winters, with rwd and fwd.
Nothing,not snows, chains, studs, nothing works as good as 4 wheel/all wheel drive.
Nothing,not snows, chains, studs, nothing works as good as 4 wheel/all wheel drive.
. . . unless you want to stop or turn.
Tires: While living South of the Mason-Dixon, my RWD RX-8 rarely saw snow and wore the stock performance tires. First time it hit any real snow, I was sliding off I-75 faster than any of my Snow-belt bred driving skills could kick in (safely came to a stop in grassy median, btw). Fast forward to this fall, having moved to Western PA. Clad in Michelin Alpin’s, I can run circles around any all-season tired AWD vehicle, and have a ball doing it. Wouldn’t believe the fun I had driving in Western NY snowbelt on a ski trip.
SUV’s: If a growing family pushes me to get a CUV, SUV, MUV, QUV or other any other *UV, I have to think that I’d get AWD or 4WD. It’s a given that I’ve sacrificed any hope of high MPG anyways, and why would you own one of these without knowing it could go anywhere? Of course if I’m still living in winter country, I’m still going to put winters on it.
Performance AWD: More likely than an SUV for me, if money allows me to go upscale in performance and luxery, I’ll be looking at the AWD option to get power to the ground from all four rubbers. I’d probably put more weight on the handling and power/weight, but it’ll definitely be a part of the decision.
In Summary “Must have AWD!” = WRONG But I’m still going to consider it for any SUV or performance car I may buy in the future. Oh, and for goodness sake, get some winter tires everyone!!!
I’ve got a unique perspective on this. I’ve had six years with both a RX8 with snows and a Legacy GT with all-seasons in Michigan.
The RX8 is a fantastic winter car so long as the snow is no more than 6 inches deep. It stops on a dime in snow and the sensitive chassis lets you know exactly how much traction you have. I’m still amazed at how many people think a rwd sports car makes a terrible winter car even with snow tires.
On the other hand the we keep All-seasons on the Subaru because it can’t be stopped even with them, but it is so much more fun than the RX8 in the snow. Nothing beats the easy, low speed drifts that the all seasons allow. Granted, the drifting appears like it has terrible traction, but I’ve never been stuck in it.
They’ll both get you were you want to go perfectly safe, but the All-seasons make the Legacy a party in the snow.
Agreed on the RX-8 being a great winter car (with snows!). I had it out in Western NY late Jan and had a blast! You can get that back end to swing out and yet pull it back in line with a little extra power and never feel like you’re losing control.