Jeremy writes:
Dear Sajeev, I am currently in possession of a 1985 Toyota Celica GT, with a clutch that is perpetually engaged. I originally bought the car when I moved across Canada, as a means of securing a cheap ride until I could save up some money for a down payment on a new car. I paid about $1100 for the car about 6 months ago, which had 165 000 verified kms and now has about 180 000. The car is actually in decent shape with very little rust, a clean interior, new front brakes and wheel bearings, new exhaust, spark plugs, bushings, and drove quite nicely up until now. It was not a problem when it moved because my girlfriend would use it for the day, then park it in our condos ‘visitors’ spots which are to be used for no more than 12 hours, a time limit that is strictly enforced.
I purchased a new car well before all of this, a 2011 Ford Focus (don’t laugh, it was a good price with all the options I wanted compared to the other cars I shopped for), so needless to say driving the Celica was a fun place to go on the weekend after a week of econoboxing. I would love to fix the clutch and keep this car, but I have nowhere to work on it, and don’t really want to pay what a garage would charge me to take it apart and fix it.
What do I do with it?
Sajeev answers:
Jeremy, that’s a lovely car! Not that you need my encouragement, but you must keep it no matter what. My advice is simple: get on the 3rd Gen Celica forums and pray you find a like minded soul nearby. That Celica nut could easily fix your car for the cost of parts, a few meals, and a lifetime of friendship. Friends within my car brands are some of my closest friends.
And that’s what you need: a Celica Support Infrastructure.
Here’s the thing about long term car ownership: it takes a life all unto itself. Your non-car friends do not understand why you devote significant amounts of time and money to your ride. Your family probably does not understand, because owning an old car brings about new experiences, challenges and relationships (cars or otherwise) that you simply cannot experience elsewhere.
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
Celica Support Infrastructures prove a bigger point: don’t we all need people to nurture and support our fascinations? I’d like to think so.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
First thing popping into brain.
Non-existent or non-functioning spring
Actually, this problem is not at all very specific to this gen Celica, but just a generic clutch issue, a problem that could happen on any stick car. I assume it has a hydraulic clutch master-slave cylinder set up. Have you checked to make sure there’s still fluid in the master cylinder? Did this happen all at once? I would try googling “stuck clutch” or something like that, and see where that takes you.
This gen Celica is still very common still on the streets here: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/features/cc-instant-replay-the-snow-holiday-walk-and-talk/
The nice thing about older and more obscure cars? Their support/community forums are infinitely easier to deal with. Trying to get information about issues with an ’08 Civic is pretty much asking to be depressed. I miss the guys who took care of old Pathfinders.
(also everything else that’s nicer about older and more obscure cars)
+1. No wait, plus a million.
Hell yes!! Anytime I try to find info on forums about newer cars, I end up reading a few dozen posts that basically tell me how I need to go to dealership because it requires special tools, or special fluids, or a whole new engine or whatever. Clueless…
An exception to that is the 240sx forums. Even though they are old and obscure cars, the forums tend to be filled with younger guys who dont really know a lot about the cars aside from what kind of engines can be swapped into them. Nice guys, but trying to find any info on how to keep the car stock and running well is nearly impossible! :)
If not for the internet, my W126 Benz would likely be blown out into parts for other Benzes by now, instead of just ticking over 427k miles.. Another cool thing about old cars: you can sometimes find complete sets of shop manuals on CDROM online for peanuts (or if you’re really lucky, on bittorrent for free!)
This is definitely an old car/new car thing. When my E30 BMW was just a couple of years old, I sought the advice of fellow BMW CCA members on areas to improve performance. The answers fell into two groups: Either I needed to swap my super eta for an engine and rear end out of a 325is, or I needed to trade in my car. People worked on 2002s, but they check booked current BMWs. I held onto the E30 until it was almost 20 years old, and about the time it had been out of production for a decade it became a ‘keeper’ in the eyes of BMW experts. My last 6 years of E30 ownership were full of quick and cheap driveway repairs and encouragement from BMW professionals.
+1 million more
Local to me we’ve formed a “rotary support cooperative” amongst a group of a half dozen RX7/RX8 enthusiasts. Over the last few years, our shared knowledge has taught all of us a lot, and built some really close friendships.
I had that same year and color Celica back in the mid 90’s.
Ended up wrapped around a tree and totaled.
Genarally, the clutch problem should not be a show-stopper. Of course if it wazs RWD it would be even simlper to fix. I’d wait until you find a lower cost repair option rather than selling it.
The 1985 Celicas were RWD, werent they? The one in the pic is at least…
Yup, it was a RWD.
In that case keeping it is a no brainer. You can fix it on your driveway even if you have to pull the bell-housing
I owned one of these for about 10 years (It was an ’83 but it’s the same car). It was one of the best, if not the best, car that I ever owned. Pretty amazing to be in Canada and not have a rust problem; that vintage Celica was notorious for corrosion but that’s the only real negative I can think of.
As for the clutch, it’s probably a malfunctioning slave cylinder which is pretty easy (and inexpensive) to replace. It may be out of fluid or need to be bled, two issues that occur when it starts to leak and loses all or most of its fluid.
Yes, ’85 was the last RWD Celica.
Nice car! They’re tough to find in good shape without a lot of miles on them. Assuming that this car has a hydraulic clutch (a pretty safe bet for an 80’s Toyota), I concur that the problem is very, very likely either the clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder or both. I’ve replaced them in all three of the Toyota products I’ve owned over the years, it’s not a terribly complicated job, takes a couple of hours.
If you’re so inclined, get under the hood, find your clutch master cylinder and check out its fluid level. If the level is below the “full” line or if the reservoir is empty, you may have found your problem. One or both cylinders are probably leaking and need to be replaced. Parts are quite affordable, you should be able to get both cylinders for under $100 and maybe even for as little as $50. I would think a good independent shop could do the whole job for a couple of Franklins.
While it is possible that the clutch itself is cooked, it is far less likely; if I were a betting man, I’d wager that it’s in fine shape. So above all, don’t let some fast-talking mechanic bulldoze you into an all-new clutch without checking the entire clutch hydraulic system first!
I bought an 87 convertible celica st a few years ago for $700. It had a leaking radiator, and torn CV boots. After replacing the radiator, and fluids, cylinder 2 started misfiring, and then it stopped running completely. I think it was just too much of a project car for me to chew and I ended up donating it a few months later. I still miss it though! The styling was great and I love those flippy headlights.
Celica Support Infrastructures prove a bigger point: don’t we all need people to nurture and support our fascinations? I’d like to think so.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I called up my Dad on Friday to just see how the family was doing. My fiance and I were parked in the parking lot of the “quick lube” that’s attached to the dealership where she bought her Vibe (we were waiting on said Vibe to finish it’s tire rotation/oil change.) I ended up having a 10 min conversation with him about the “For Sale” 1981 Pontiac Parisienne coupe that was parked next to me. Not only was it in very mint original condition, it had an aftermarket CD stereo and a baby seat in the back but otherwise was un-“donk”-ed. He is the only member of my family that I could have that sort of conversation with and I value everyone that we have.
I ended up having a 10 min conversation with him about the “For Sale” 1981 Pontiac Parisienne coupe that was parked next to me.
’81? Doesn’t that mean it could actually have a Pontiac V8 in it?
The very rare 301 likely. Although I’d rather steal the 403 Oldsmobile big block out of a 1979 Ninety Eight if given my choice of low hp/high rourque engines of the era.
Wasn’t the 403 a small-block?
Anyway, the Pontiac 400 went 180hp@3600 and 325lb-ft@1600. The Olds 403 was 185hp@3600 and 320lb-ft@2000. The Olds might as well be an Acura! (j/k).
Damn you’re right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine#403
Could do a more “period correct” swap for a turbo 301 (not an impressive engine, I’ve just always loved “odd-balls.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_301_Turbo
Could be something as simple as a bad linkage. The car doesn’t move so you’ll have to have it towed unless you can find a trustworthy buddy to help you competently and for very little money. Fat chance. First, I wouldn’t trust the technical abilities of anyone on an Internet site who’s willing to help you for a six pack. And why waste time (and the hassle) keeping the thing around just to save a few pennies which might end up costing you later because of bad or incomplete work from a “volunteer?” So, take it to a dealer or Toyota specialist and get it fixed right. Then put an ad in Autotrader or Craigslist. You’ll get your money back on the repair if the car is in as good a shape as you say it is.
The dealership probably has very little expertise with this car, and probably isn’t interested in acquiring any.
At $150-200 / hour ( for a 25 year old car), that is some spectacularly bad advice.
Any decent independent shop should be able to figure it out in 15 minutes. Checking to see if the slave cylinder actuator rod is moving when the clutch is depressed is the first thing.
If it doesn’t it’s the master or slave. Otherwise it’s the clutch pressure plate or thrust release bearing and the transmission will need to come out.
This is a pretty basic RWD setup.
Get real. So a good Toyota dealer who has all the resources of Toyota of Canada plus a likely tech or two who was around in 1985 has a lesser chance of figuring out the problem than some “independent” that works on all makes all day long? And for a problem on a component whose basic design hasn’t changed in 50 years? No way.
Having driven nothing but manuals for 34 years I’d say the car probably can be driven, it’s just a pain. It helps if you have a good battery, and have driven the car enough to be able to match revs without thinking too hard.
First, idle it long enough to get everything warmed up.
Second, shut off engine and place in 1 or R
Third, (the hard part , and perhaps impossible if you need to go uphill) Start the car while giving it enough gas to get it rolling.
Fourth, Let off the gas to take it out of gear after getting up to speed. It generally comes out easily if you aren’t trying to accelerate. If you know where your revs/road speed matches are it should upshift easily. If you don’t know your shift points hold the shifter poised at the gate and without forcing it the syncros will guide it in when the speeds match.
Don’t try to downshift to stop and try to avoid traffic, No, it’s not a great idea for the long term, but it will get you home—or to the garage.
I learned the technique in V4 SAABs with freewheeling hubs (and dodgy clutches). I have since found it possible with any manual and if you’re half careful you won’t even grind any gears.
The slave cylinder mounted on the bell housing is bad. Same thing happened to my girlfriend’s Corolla back in’85. Fixed it on my back in the driveway with a beer in one hand. If you park the car over a deep enough depression of some sort then you won’t even have to jack it up.
“you park the car over a deep enough depression of some sort then you won’t even have to jack it up.”
My garage needs a new concrete slab. Since the floor needs to go, I was actually thinking about installing a lube pit.
That’s a cool car, you should keep it for sure. Sajeev is absolutely right, find some celica forums and talk to people.
I used to do all my own work on some FIATs (the 70s and 80s kinds, not the imminent 500), and a Peugeot. I never had any “support group,” although I did know one very helpful Peugeot mechanic.
I did it all by purchasing the Factory Shop Manual for every one of my cars. You want the Real Thing, not the Clymer/Seloc/Haynes aftermarket stuff, although those are all occasionally useful. Some brands gouge for Shop Manuals (Peugeot demanded $300 for all six volumes pertaining to my ’86 505), but if you’re going to keep the car, they are definitely worth it.
I’ve never examined a Toyota Shop Manual, but the manual for my Honda Odyssey is excellent.
FWIW, I inherited my brother’s 240SX, and they only way to buy the ’89 Nissan Shop Manual today is to rent time on their website and download a bunch of PDFs. The free 240sx-shop-manual-on-a-CD things floating around the web are mostly worthless.
stuart
Old repair manuals are cheap at used book stores, etc…
Yes, and I’ve bought many used Haynes manuals at used bookstores, but IMHO they’re a poor imitation of the factory manuals. Used bookstores always have a random sampling of factory manuals, but never anything for *my* car. :-)
stuart
Hey, nothing shameful about a 2011 Ford Focus. Based on Ford’s Global C1 platform, which has proven to a pretty solid platform. Same as the Mazda3 and most of Volvo’s compact cars. Of course, the possibility exists that I may be a bit biased.
getacargetacheck:
“Get real. So a good Toyota dealer who has all the resources of Toyota of Canada plus a likely tech or two who was around in 1985 has a lesser chance of figuring out the problem than some “independent” that works on all makes all day long? ”
*There are plenty of good independents and if they want to stay in business in a highly competitive field they need to do a good job at a reasonable cost. They don’t have captive warranty customers like the dealerships.
“And for a problem on a component whose basic design hasn’t changed in 50 years? No way.”
*Your second statement somewhat nullifies the first.
It’s just a clutch problem, you don’t need a dealer for this. Dealer replacement of a clutch on 24 year old car is just not going to be cost effective.
And cost is apparently a concern.
I can write an article about this.
In fact, I think I will write an article about this. The avenues and opportunities for older vehicles are virtually limitless.
Yup the 85 is the last of the RWD Celica’s. My dad had a 72 and my sister a 81 and both eventually needed a clutch slave cylinder. Chances are this one does as well. These are great cars and worth dumping a few dollars into.
86 and up FWD always reminded me of a Lancia Beta done right. The styling and packaging are similar and with 16v 4 cyl on most models it’s a Beta without the horrid reliability.
The commenters who have suggested the slave cylinder are quite possibly incorrect. A faulty slave cylinder is oftenresponsible for not allowing the clutch to engage but it is very unlikely that the piston would jam in the cylinder bore to the extent that the clutch diaphragm spring would not push it back.
The cause of your clutch problem is more likely to be the clutch throwout bearing locating sleeve which slides on the gearbox input shaft. It was a problem specific to early mobel Hyundai Excels, probably because those Krafty Koreans were too tight to put a dollop of grease on the shaft during assembly.
I would find a decent old school mechanic to fix the Celica and then decide whether to sell it or keep it because it will be worth almost nothing in its present circumstance.
Richarbl has this exactly backwards. The clutch slave cylinder is used to disengage the clutch plate. When it fails (at least on a 22R based Celica), pressing on the clutch pedal causes fluid to squirt past the bad seal instead of pressing the slave cylinder’s piston.
Last time I replaced one of them on a ’83 Celica it was a $16 part. Replacing it required 30 minutes and both 12mm and 10 mm open end wrenches.
The master cylinder rebuild kit was a bigger pain but still a cheap part at $22. When the clutch master cylinder fails on one of these it will leak down the clutch pedal onto the driver’s side floor mat (which it will disolve). Run a hand up the backside of the clutch pedal. If it comes away slimy, that needs to be replaced.