Randy writes:
Dear Sajeev, I’m a middle-aged man in love with a cranky mistress. My 1999 Concorde LXi has developed a thumping sound from the right front going over bumps with the wheel slightly turned to the right. It currently has around 94k miles on the ticker. I enjoy this car for no other reason than it is a large fwd American sedan that can cruise the interstate all day long and returns decent mileage with the 3.2 liter engine.
I bought it three years ago from an elderly couple in Topeka. They claimed it didn’t run well and I being slightly mechanically inclined determined the belts were bad and a failed a/c compressor was the main culprit. At that time it had 36k miles on the odometer. It looks good, no rust, original paint and wheels. I have had all the services done including the timing belts, tensioners and water pump replaced for preventative care. The transmission fluid has been changed twice now under my care.
I’ve been reading TTAC for years now and have seen nary a mention about these cars. It seems they have been largely forgotten, relegated to the scrappers. It’s a shame that with the right engine, fwd, leather interior and few electronic bits to break. So far I’ve had reliable service from it but I’ve turned up the Infiniti radio and I can still hear the thumping but not from the aged speakers.
My friends and another mechanic can’t seem to find the source of this noise and it’s driving me crazy. Is it a sign of bad things to come? Are major repairs staring me down? I like the car for it’s simple virtues and under the radar looks. I can buy a newer car but quite frankly what can replace a large fwd car such as this?
Sajeev answers:
I agree, a lack of LH-Love in a forum dominated by Panther Appreciation is disappointing. Then again, the LH’s awesomeness was marred by powertrain disappointment (be it engine or transmission) not found in many a mainstream-priced, non-Taurus sedan. But as my father signed the papers on one of the first “retro for no good reason” Chrysler 300C in town, I secretly pined for the black-on-black 2004 Concorde at the side of the showroom instead. Yes, really. The Chrysler LH car were…ARE a far superior vehicle from a styling, packaging and interior quality standpoint. If Chrysler’s quality control kept pace with their styling, the LH would be King by now.
I look past the LH’s flaws, for that is the Chrysler that should have saved the company, killed the Camry and put the American sedan at the forefront of automotive design. It was, on packing and aerodynamics alone, the logical extension of Ford’s (seemingly) endless goodwill from the original Taurus.
Wait, you had an actual Piston Slap question. Right.
Your description sounds like bad CV-joints, a problem that will get worse and easier to spot. Which is probably a good thing, as only you know understand your car at such an advanced level. That said, old cars get cranky, and little things add up like Chinese water torture. Its tough to love a vehicle to your extent (your letter is not written by the average car nut, that’s for sure) so get ready for more headaches.
My advice is to prep yourself for more troubles in the future: shocks, springs and certain high wear suspension bushings will get bad enough to scar the driving experience. So learn more (via shop manuals, forums) have a game plan for impending component failures in the future. Good luck!
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
Install a real nice stereo to drown out your mechanical sorrows. Take it from a guy battling Fox Chassis Ford deterioration on a (seemingly) weekly basis from four active project cars, that stereo is gonna come in very handy for years to come.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
I always loved the styling on these too.. Have there been any projects to drop, say, a reliable VTEC powertrain into this body?
Now that you mention it:
LS-4 swap into a first gen LHS…the best of GM and the best of Chrysler for ultimate Detroit supremacy!
Tricky part about that is that the LH cars were longitudinal FWD, a holdover from their AMC-Renault lineage. The drivetrain from a ’90s Legend/RL could work, but you might as well just buy the Legend/RL and drive that instead of a self-kitting Chrysler.
Why bother with transplants, when original 3.5L mill is mighty awesome – as long as you timely change the timing belt on it?
And yes, a 2.7 is another – sad – story.
@bumpy ii, the LH was originally designed to be a rwd or a awd too. When Chrysler started designing it they had intended to offer fwd and awd for common citizens and rwd for police and performance versions which is the reason for the longitudinal engine placement. Of course they ran out of money and only the fwd versions made it to market.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Intrepid#Second_generation_.281998.E2.80.932004.29
According to wikipedia, the decontenting kicked in in 2002, so presumably a 2001 Intrepid in black would be the ideal base to start from.. I’d assumed with Cab Forward that the motor was transverse-mounted, guess I’m wrong..
http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showpost.php?s=667ed5c5eb1afabe6c0447d971bd2d87&p=1628610&postcount=12
2001 is indeed the high-water mark for these cars. The 300M got a new “luxury group” option that year which added real wood trim on the dash and doors, driver’s side exterior electrochromatic dimming mirror (in addition to the interior dimming mirror) the EVIC driver information system (in place of the more basic CMTC system) and a wood-section steering wheel.
2001 also had the full soft touch door trim panels with carpeting along the bottom and a real backlit red hazard lamp to warn oncoming drivers that your door is open (as opposed to just a reflector), full soft-touch overwrap on the lower dash bolster and glovebox door. It was also the last year for the front headrests that not only went up and down, but could be tilted forward too.
Needless to say, I had a 2001 300M on lease for 3 blissful years and 45,000 miles. It provided completely trouble free motoring in that time and was totally squeak and rattle free when I turned it in. I wanted to get a 2004 300M to replace it when my lease was up, but I was so disappointed in all the content that was removed from my 2001 that I just couldn’t do it. I knew I would sit in it every day and make myself angry at all the content that was gone in the name of cost-cutting.
re:contenting
By that time the fabulous Diamler management had kicked in to work their magic. The Chrysler part of DiamlerChrysler was not in control.
It’s true, the LH was right-sized, but couldn’t hold a candle to the Panther’s durability and reliability-quotient, as Sajeev notes.
Your thudding noise may also be hood struts. It’s true that an old car gets lots of shakes and rattles as it ages, and oftentimes the mechanic will tell you to live with it.
Unless it’s those pesky CV joints (what are those again?) Those cannot be ignored.
My college president had a LH based New Yorker (remember those?) when I was an undergrad at Defiance College. Had it on a 3 year lease and I was the one assigned (as I was working for the college maint dept) to clean it up for lease turn in. Man that thing was beaten within an inch of its life by that man and his young family. I started cleaning at about 8am, took a half hour for lunch, and finished around 3:30pm. How did I get chosen for such an “coveted” job? I was the student worker with the nicest looking best kept ride in the department. I washed, I waxed, I vacumed, I washed windows, I treated the leather seats, hell I think I vacumed the headliner and the trunk.
I liked it for what it was and yeah if Chrysler’s quality control and mechanical bits were up to the level of the styling and interior materials the LH cars would have been world conquering. (Heck the leather didn’t even have a crack, just one small claw mark from their damn dalmation. I can cuss that dog too cause I often got assigned to mow the president’s yard, I swear his kids were feeding that damn dog chili.)
I remember reading a few years ago that Jeremy Clarkson himself praised the LH New Yorker when it came out in 1994. The fact that JC considered an American car worthy of his good opinion says something in and of itself.
I always preferred the LHS model without the column shifter. Now and then a nice one turns up on the used market; it wouldn’t be a bad cheap car by any means.
In the depths of its little car “brain” assuredly floats the “thought” (I coulda’ been a Valiant or Dart. Sniff).
Ob, the LH sedans more properly line up with the intermediates, not the compact Mopar cars. Also, this is a Chrysler, I don’t think that they used the Chrysler brand on anything smaller than a full size car. In 1966, for example, Chrysler offered the Chrysler 300, New Yorker and Newport, all variants of the same fullsize car, plus the Imperial. So if the Concorde’s ECU is dreaming, it’s dreaming that it coulda been a Newport or New Yorker.
From how many of them are still around 15 years later, the LH sedans seem to be pretty durable. Stuff breaks but they keep running.
I know my part of the country is a little import heavy, but still, I haven’t seen an early LH car on the road in years. Still see plenty of GEN II Tauri and Camcords from that era, tho.
Funny thing, i just drove my first LH last week, a 2002 intrepid. It was low to the ground, very comfy, not too boat like…i said to myself, that i could get a thing like that for 2000$ and run it to the ground (i always had a thing for large american car). And that trunk is mafia approved, hell you could put a whole familly in there!
I, too, loved these cars. We bought a slightly-used-6-month-old 1996 Dodge Intrepid when our 1993 Spirit started having tranny issues. It was a beautiful car, white w/white wheels, 3.5L. That car was a real comfortable cruiser that my wife loved – it was her car. Then it had a fuel rail recall and when I took it in to have fixed, the dealer told me I needed a water pump – no visible leaks, 42K miles. Well, Chrysler agreed to pick up most of the tab, so I had the pump replaced as well as the timing belt. I decided to get rid of it after owning it a little over 2½ years out of fear of tranny problems and other paranoia. I believe the dealer was crooked, though, as they went out of business a few years ago before carmageddon. Good. Probably shoulda kept it for awhile. We sure enjoyed traveling in it on our back-and-forth trips between Cincinnati and St. Louis!
Edit feature not working.
Let me state this for the record in response to the “fabled” Panther Fords: I AM NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN A FAN OF THOSE THINGS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM! There.
Here come the pitchforks and torches Zackman!
*also a closet not-fan of them
I would say struts. I had struts that looked great but made noise and the car could not be aligned. Could be something as dumb as a stabilizer bushing also. Love the LHs.. keep em goin’!!
The LHs were, from a performance perspective, very good cars. I’m a fan of the 300M myself.
But yeah, they were neither durable, nor reliable, and yes, the front suspension is going to wear out sooner than the ox-cart arrangement on a Panther (poke, poke). CV joins are a likely culprit, but it might be a good idea to give the front suspension a makeover. You’ll have to do this anyway in the near and it’s a good idea to get it all done at once.
On the plus side, they ride better, drive better and are much more comfortable for people than either the Panthers or GM’s W-Body cars.
I know at one point there was a “do it yourself” step by step description of how to rebuild the LH steering and hubs on allpar.com, it’s a common problem.
Ah here it is, http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid.html
I was (and am) a big fan of the 300m too. I still like it’s styling better than the 1st or 2nd gen 300C. If I found a cherry one for a good price I might be tempted…
Sounds like the noise my 99 T&C makes. It was making the noise when I bought it last spring. My mechanic gave the front end a clean bill of health and I have been ignoring it up to now. However, mine has 201K instead of 94K. My uneducated stab in the dark would be struts.
The stereo trick has been working for me so far. Actually, unless you are really choosy, the factory Infinity unit sounds pretty good. It is the best car stereo in the family, although the competition is a 07 Honda Fit and a 93 Crown Vic.
My sister in law had a previous generation Intrepid with the 3.5, and got it nearly to 300K on the original engine and a second transmission that had been done by the prior owner. These cars seem to follow the classic Mopar pattern – the basic stuff is pretty stout but the ancillary stuff (compressors, motors, relays, etc) nickels and dimes you until most folks get tired of the car.
Sajeev is right, it’s probably a CV joint giving warning. I’m surprised a mechanic couldn’t find it, because its’ a fairly common issue with front wheel drives. If it isn’t a CV joint the other possibility is a strut going bad, or perhaps a motor mount giving up. Struts and joints are the big expenses for front wheel drive cars, but if the rest of the car is good, a rebuild in this area will mean you have many many more miles together. I always liked the LX as well, the gas mileage is impressive for a car that size and the interior is really very nice in comparison to the 300 or the Charger.
Count me as an LH lover. Picked up my 94 New Yorker in mid-95 with 50K on the clock, ran it until just a couple years ago when it tossed a rod at 170K. Outstanding highway cruiser with reasonable handling (I’m talking to you, Panther fans) in twisties and over rough stuff. Yes, there were issues…the tranny was rebuilt at 51K, tie rods went in at 80K, and the AC evaporator rusted out like everyone else’s…but coming from a GM, it was more amazing what didn’t fail. The switchgear, locks and windows, the instruments, the climate control, the sound system, the suspension, the engine accessories – God knows I’d have had to replace all that stuff twice over on any beancounter-stripped unit from the General. Instead it all lasted ’til the bitter end and looked good doing it. I still wish I’d put a crate engine in it when she blew, but I guess new car fever got me.
BTW – dealer opinion was that the oil pumps on these started to fade at about this age, taking out engines with remarkable consistency. This theory gained additional credence when I took the car to the boneyard and all the dead LH’s on Mopar Row had between 150 and 170K on the clock. I post this (a) looking for confirmation, and (b) to warn anyone lucky enough to still be driving one of these to consider an oil pump rehab. The infernal idiot light never gave a flicker.
Hey, on a related note, what’s the deal with that “creeeeeeeeeeeeeak” noise that all big, front-drive Chryslers of this era make when the come to a stop?
Car groaning under the weight of inflated expectations?
There is a what I would call a “rapid ticking” noise that is part of the normal operation of the transmission – solenoids opening and closing during downshifting.
Trademark of the early Ultradrive transmission. It is pulse-width-modulated solenoids acting directly on the different clutch sets to attain the different ratios in the transmission.
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/four-speed-automatics.html
Wouldn’t “early” Ultradrives be found on the predecessors to this car? Interesting to note that the method of control of shifts that was pioneered on the A604 is still in use in many a brands’ transmissions today…
I bought my 2003 300M Special last spring and I am still absolutely smitten with it. It runs and drives great and looks wonderful inside and out.
I will admit though that I have had it in the shop a couple of times The first time was a cam sensor and again for a thermostat, but I understand that it isn’t brand new and that some things are going to happen with it. Personally, I think I will make the repairs it takes to keep it on the road for a while yet.
The newer 300C has nothing on these cars and, like a lot of people, I really wonder what might have been if Chrysler had kept developing this design for a few years more. A supercharged or twin turbo 3.5 would have been awesome.
A turbo Pentastar V6 is in the works.
“I bought my 2003 300M Special last spring and I am still absolutely smitten with it.”
If you don’t mind me asking, how much did you pay for it? I am seriously thinking of getting one when my current ride becomes too expensive to fix.
I ended up giving about $8,000 for it. That’s a little higher than most but it was a one owner, perfect car-fax with less than 70k miles on it. My purchase experience was slightly unusual – if you like long stories, you can read my blog – http://www.motorcycle-database.com/forums/articles/3624-lifetime-experience-here-there-there-then-back-here-again.html
Just to inject a little spice in to the comments,
The LH was during the Bob Lutz era (he was president of Chrysler and actually running the company).
I had a Chrysler 300M in 2000 and it was a very good car. Never had any real problems over 80k miles. I thought the interior was a bit more classy than other contemporary American automobiles.
Now you’ve done it… Panther Love/Hate, and Bob Lutz make for unhappy servers at TTAC Central.
I’ve never really understood the Bob Lutz hate. He was a great product designer, and even at GM the design and quality of cars improved during his tenure, even to the point of getting some good reviews here at TTAC. His responsibility was design, not finance. Seem to me he did just fine.
I rented a LH body Chrysler once. I thought it was the nicest rental I’d ever seen – performance was good, handling sharp, interior pleasant and the styling was gorgeous, competitive with anything on the road. Loved just looking at it. But it had 5,500 miles on it when the left front power window developed an embarrassing sound. Made me think they just would not be reliable, and I guess I was right.
I thought at the time at the time that Bob Lutz was great at getting cars designed, not so great at getting them built …
D
The 2.7 liter engine had problems (oil sludging) but the 3.2 and 3.5 engines were pretty reliable. Going back to the first series LH, the 3.3 and 3.8 engines were bulletproof. By the time the second series came out, the transmission issues were pretty much resolved, as long as you use the correct fluid.
Surely a CV joint on only 95K will only go bad if the boot has split and dumped out all the grease. This is my experience with non-American cars.
I actually bought an LH new – a 1996 Eagle Vision Tsi.
I loved that car. Only had one problem – recall on leaky fuel rail. Great handling, braking, 30 mpg on the interstate… sold it to a close friend and it’s still going strong at something like 150k.
It did need some front suspension work at 100k but it wasn’t a big deal.
Sometimes I think about buying a 300M special or an Intrepid R/T instead of a new Charger R/T, but that red leather calls to me…
The Pokemon face on that white Chrysler pictured scares me.
I’m sorry but that was absolutely wrong – its obviously a bunny face.
Actually, there is not enough info to even guess – does thumping occur when driving in a straight line or when turning, on smooth road or on bumps, etc., etc. Without that making guesses is either unproductive or not professional.
CVs are the last item I would look at. It is worth checking the boots condition regardless though. CVs can create ticking in turns (because of binding) or shudder at constant speed or deceleration (when the joints are loose), but thumping?… Hmmm…
I’m not real familiar with the LH cars, but other Chryslers have a mount at the top of the strut that often makes the symptoms you describe. It’ll get worse. You have to disassemble the strut to replace it, so it might be worthwhile to replace the struts as well.FWIW, I don’t care much for Panthers or FWD Chryslers.Bob
I like the cars that the LH’s replaced, the Grand Fury and Diplomat.
I used to drive a Concorde. Loved that car. I didn’t have any of the problems that seem to be regularly associated with them. It always got lots of compliments. What did bug me was the quality of the airbag cover on the passenger side, which warped slightly for no good reason. As for the power train, mine had plenty of grunt, never let me down, and regularly got 27 hwy. Handling wasn’t bad either for a fwd of its girth.
But, what do I know? I’m still a fan of cab-forward.
If it is not the CV’s which is possible on a such a big fwd car with a V6, get the wheel alignment and balancing checked. Also consider wheel bearings. Has the car run into a curb or hit a nasty pot hole? Bad wheel alignment or a bad tyre could be exaggerating issues with a bad CV, wheel bearing, suspension joint / bush or even steering rack.
Your Chrysler’s problem sounds a lot like a wheel bearing. Same symptoms that my ’91 Caravan had when its wheel bearing went bad. Not horribly expensive–less than 2 bills back in 2000 with someone else doing all the work.
I’m more of a parts replacer than a mechanic but it sounds more like a strut issue than a CV joint. A CV joint will make a clicking noise when the car is turning, not a thumping sound. Also, CV wear makes noise at more extreme steering angles, not the wheel slightly turned.
Going over bumps usually doesn’t have the same extreme angles on a CV joint that steering the car will create. Thumping sounds when going over bumps to me seems like it’s the strut.
The upper strut mount is likely bad, or an internal problem with the strut itself. If the strut has lost its ability to dampen oscillations and has been that way for awhile, you may see some scalloping on the tire as a clue. At that mileage/years you will be facing some repairs but I’ll venture to bet that you can get a good amount of life out of your car.
Agree. I broke a strut mounting plate on my first car, ’85 Olds 98 Regency Brougham, after hitting the new speed bumps at my high school at too high a rate of speed (they replaced the asphalt ones with ceramic ones since the football team kept breaking up the asphalt ones with sledgehammers). It was an intermittent clunking noise, fairly loud, really irritating, and I could feel it in the steering wheel.
I would guess CV joints.
I never liked the LH cars styling at all, and being driven by the wrong wheels just made them even more easy for me to ignore. I just had one as a loaner and found nothing to really like about them at all. It wasn’t really comfortable, it was slow (3.5L), and the interior was pretty sad with all the fake wood.
If Chrysler hadn’t gone RWD with the LX cars, I never would have bought one. Or my Challenger. I don’t/won’t buy FWD vehicles.
One thing the loaner did have that blows away a lot of new cars is an actual cable operated throttle. I was impressed with the instant throttle response, if not the power it had.
First Gen LHS owner here! I have a `96 that i bought for cheap as I decided not to get a Panther. I have put about 500 miles on it thus far; it’s a great highway cruiser that gets about 27-28 MPG going 65. Every little bit of electronic gadgetry works as it did when it left the factory. The only real repair I need to make is replacing the subframe bushings.
Owned two LH cars over the years: 1996 Chrysler Concorde, and 1996 Eagle Vision TSi. Great cars to drive. The Concorde lasted four months before a deer killed it on Halloween, 2001. The Vision immediately replaced it, and lasted until 2004, when I ditched it after ASC refused to supply me with replacement seals for a custom moonroof the previous owner had put in, and the entire steering linkage needed replacing at 137k miles.