Our friend, frequent RoundAbout Show guest Mirko Reinhardt, has found an Infiniti dealership that’s kind of like Surf City. In Surf City, as our older readers will remember, there are two girls for every boy, but in Germany, there’s an dealer with two Infinitis in stock for every one sold across the entire country last month. What’s a Japanese wanna-be luxury brand to do?
We’ll let Mirko tell the tale:
On a recent walk through Hamburg, I noticed the nation’s first Infiniti dealer had a lot full of mostly foil-wrapped new M30d, FX30d and EX30d. There were cars in front of the shiny building, next to it and behind it. I didn’t count, but it must have been about 100.
After an autumn 2009 launch, Infiniti still hasn’t made it very far in Germany. Despite offering a Renault-designed 3-liter turbodiesel in the M, EX and FX, Infiniti has found only 48 German buyers in February, 39 in January. They’re trying every trick in the book: Cheap leases, free maintenance, they’ll pick up cars on trailer for maintenance if you live less than 150km away from one of their very few dealers.
It’s no use. Germans just don’t buy them. Lexus isn’t much better: After 21 years of selling – or trying to sell – cars in Germany, the best they can do is 118 cars in February, 85 in January. For a little perspective: Mercedes has moved 17,906 cars in February, Audi 17,121 and BMW 16,700.
I’ve included Mirko’s gallery of cell-phone shots below. The one that struck me was the 65,000-Euro price tag for the M30d. The BMW 530d costs 49,500 Euro. Here in the Land Of The BK Broiler, we expect our Japanese aspirational sedans to be cheaper than the German competition. A lot cheaper. So, if I ran Infiniti of Germany, I’d drop the price into the cellar and lose money on every one for a decade if that’s what it takes to get the brand story out and build volume. If you don’t think Lexus did that when they priced the 1990 LS400 at $35,350, then as Axl Rose would say, you’re f*&#in’ crazy.
That’s my idea, but you guys aren’t the Best and Brightest for nothing. How would you fix the Infiniti sales problem? I’ll give the best answers to Mirko, who will use them to become the global director of Nissan, at which point he will promptly forget his promise to get me a Nissan Cube press car for weekend gigs.
Yeah that plan is likely just about the only thing that would work. Ya gotta get your foot in the door.
I don’t believe Infinity is fixable. To my mind its’ brand equity is virtually worthless. It never has caught on to any great degree and offers very little cachet (sp?) to buyers. I’d leave it die.
Well it is the only car brand that has the distinction of having it’s logo likened to an unfinished drawing of the female anatomy by my fiance.
Her: What car is that?
Me: It’s an Infinity.
Her: The logo looks like somebody stopped half way though drawing a vag…
Simon,
They offer no FWD vehicles and that would seem to make more sense than any Acura.
The brand Infinity is fine (audio speakers), otoh, the brand Infiniti (autos) has its problems when, despite over 2 decades in existence, people still can’t spell it correctly.
No it’s OK my spelling is a meme on here. Don’t judge the brand by me.
bd2 – I think you mean when people can’t misspell it correctly.
OK, so that’s one of my concerns in getting one. How many times would I look at an intentionally misspelled word?
As for fixing their sales problem, maybe they should just be honest and say something like “The G37: Not quite a 3-Series, but it’s as close as you can get to one without being placed on a mechanic’s Christmas Card list.”
@tbp0701
Touche!
The Lexus IS was always more like the 3 Series (in size and shape).
The Infiniti G was more like “as close to the 3 Series in handling as you can get, but w/ more interior/rear passenger leg room and at a cheaper price to boot” – similar to the Cadillac CTS (that is until Cadillac decided to bump the CTS from being a 3 Series competitor to a 5 Series competitor).
Sheesh, Jack, you do’nt need the B&B for this one. Fourth graders could have given you the answer. They’d tell you that your own solution is the right one. Cars are too expensive–especially in this class–for crazily creative marketing to turn Infiniti around.
Considering that I hear there are places on the interstates, or whatever they call them over there (google translate says “zwischenstaatlich” but I don’t think that’s it), that have no speed limit, I would think they could start by putting decent brakes on their cars.
Um, Autobahn, you mean? Wish we had sections of American “Autobahn” especially here out west where I live.
Ja, das ist es.
Car and Driver also experienced a brake fade incident with the Infiniti FX:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/08q3/the_power_to_stop-tech_stuff
Funny all those problems since the brakes on my G37S are outstanding
Europeans just do not seem to appreciate Japanese cars and I am not sure they ever will.
Infinity has a long road to haul here. The will most likely need special “Europe only” vehicles to sell there. The “Japanese” influence will have to be taken out of these cars.
The investment required is probably not worth it.
I hope Infinity sticks around in the US. I have owned 2 and I have really liked them both.
To Management: It may just be my platform, Mac PPC OSX, Safari, but when a post is logically the last one at the end of page 1/beginning of page 2, it has occasionally dropped from the main site view. This has happened more than 1x over the life of the site.
Ex: The Atomic Explosion one by Jack would have been #11 in the main index article-flow, yet it did not show up as post #1 on https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/page/2/ for a short while there.
-Don’t know if it’s WP rebuilding pages or something like that. Just a note.
I would assume that once you match the equipment level of the Infinity, a BMW 530d would probably be considerably more expensive. And it won’t matter one bit. What does the Infinity have to recommend it really? They don’t drive as well as a BMW, they look VERY Japanese, especially on the inside, and BMW is the “home team”. They might as well give it up and go home. This is the EXACT same problem that Toyota is having selling full-size trucks in the US, but more so.
Yup. I don’t understand infiniti, why would you buy one…
@krhodes1
You hit the nail on the head. A 530d for 50k has a manual transmission (not that I’d mind), cloth seats, 17″ wheels, manual A/C, no nav, cloth seats, no Bluetooth, cheapo speakers no xenons.
Load it up like this Infiniti dealer-lot special with aftermarket chrome dubs and you’re looking at 75-80k.
If it was possible to buy a 528i equipped like that in the US, I’d find a way to buy one.
Easy why you’d buy one, poor mans BMW. You get a well equipped pseudo 335 for 328 money with more rear room to boot
1) Stand out from the crowd. Make cars functional, simple and lightweight (but with high end materials). Use the 1970 Datsun 510 and 1972 Skyline GT-R for exterior styling inspiration, and the classic Japanese tea house for interior inspiration. Unclutter the dashboard and center console. Eliminate the CD changer. Eliminate the large central LCD screen. Use in-car WiFi to allow smartphone or tablet based control of electronics (Nokia “terminal mode”). Restore simple knobs for HVAC and radio (put the HVAC and radio display directly in front of the driver, between the main gauges).
2) Offer an FWD (or rear-engine, RWD) sedan with completely flat floor and front bench seat.
3) Be the only “luxury” brand without a single model that requires premium gasoline
1) fun idea
2) interesting
3) “regular” gasoline has been phased out in Germany years ago due to lack of demand, there’s only E10 95RON mid-grade and 98RON premium. Gasoline is a tiny fraction of the “luxury” market anyway, too tiny to compete with if you’re the new kid on the block. If you want to compete with the 5-series, E-Class and A6, you need a competent diesel lineup.
Forgot this was about Germany :-) Was thinking more of the US, where 87-octane gasoline is still the norm.
The US and Europe figure octane ratings differently. I can’t remember the actual formulas and am too lazy to Google it, but the US rating is always lower for the same effective knock resistance. So it is best to think of it as “low, medium, and high” when thinking of it, with the difference that in Europe “really high” (i.e US 94 or higher) is a lot more available.
I fail to see why people get excited about a need for a slightly more expensive fuel. This simply means the engine is tuned for higher performance than would otherwise be the case. If you are in the market for a $40-50K premium car, what possible difference does an extra $3-4 on a $50+ tank of gas make??
If you want simple, well in Europe you can get really simple. It’s called a base model BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. An interior so stark you would have to see it to believe it. Of course the nice thing is you can order your car your way – want a no-sunroof, manual HVAC, manual tranny, clotch seat manual seat 550i? No problem sign right here Sir. Want a loaded to the gills luxo-everything 518d? No problem there either, and everything in-between.
But seriously, a front bench seat?? In luxury car??? In Europe???? Have you ever BEEN there????? We are not talking people-carrier minivans here. These cars are bought by business men to get from place to place in a HURRY. At least in Germany, at speeds that would require a Pilot’s License to achieve legally in the US. And I am not sure that a German driver’s license is that much easier to get than a US Sport Pilot License.
1) Low octane fuel: It’s not the expense. It’s the fault tolerance. Being able to ingest all varieties of fuel is an advantage.
2) Simple vs. Cheap. Base models are cheap, with filler plates where “options” were removed. That’s different from a fundamentally simple and elegant design.
3) Bench seat: Infiniti isn’t going anywhere with me-too products. Why not be different? Bench seat enhances spaciousness and makes it easier to slide from one side of the car to the other (good for crowded parking places)
One more thing: Front fender mounted side view mirrors to minimize obstruction at the base of A-pillar.
@krhodes1
The US and Europe figure octane ratings differently. I can’t remember the actual formulas and am too lazy to Google it, but the US rating is always lower for the same effective knock resistance.
In Germany there are two fuel grades: 95 RON “Super” (equivalent to US 91 AKi octane fuel) and 98 octane “Super Plus” (equivalent to US 94 AKi octane fuel). Some brands have their own super-high-grade with 99 RON or more.
If you want simple, well in Europe you can get really simple. It’s called a base model BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. An interior so stark you would have to see it to believe it. Of course the nice thing is you can order your car your way – want a no-sunroof, manual HVAC, manual tranny, clotch seat manual seat 550i? No problem sign right here Sir.
The 550i is automatic-only in Europe, and they force electric seat adjustments on 550i and 535d buyers.
Want a loaded to the gills luxo-everything 518d? No problem there either, and everything in-between.
The entry 5-series is a 520d. If you want less power, buy a Mercedes E200 CDI.
For starters, they should have never, ever allowed anyone to know the engine was made by Renault. If this is a supposedly “luxury” item, the frenchy engine sends the opposite message. Not that I care much, but maybe buyers will.
Baruth’s idea is a nice one, “proven” also, but it is my understanding that the original LS400 was a HECK of a car at that time (so much that along the SC300/400 and some others is on my short list of desirable Toyotas), supposedly much superior that its competition. I don’t know if that’s the case with Infinity’s current lineup.
Well, Renault engines were beating Mercedes engines a few times in F1…
I’ll give the best answers to Mirko, who will use them to become the global director of Nissan, at which point he will promptly forget his promise to get me a Nissan Cube press car for weekend gigs.
Cube? Pah, humbug! I’d even get you a Pixo!
Or, for weekend gigs with lots of guitars… a NV200?
I would first focus my efforts on the SUV and gauge the results.
The SUV has the best chance to compete in the marketplace.
First, develop a de-contented version so you can establish a low “starting at” price for advertising. Add some secondary badge levels of the same model using the German language. (The old American trick) This is to distinguish the base model from the other trim levels.
Advertise heavily stressing the vehicle meets the German lifestyle and leaves the owner some money to actually participate in that lifestyle. So dual advertising, the vehicles capabilities plus the cost savings. Add humor, it helps…
Example:
Show the Infinity SUV and a German SUV competitor arrive at a ski shop sales establishment. The family with the Infinity SUV departs with piles of ski equipment. The family with the German SUV departs with only a book and one ski pole.
Next show that both vehicles can handle the snow and roads to get there. Focus unconsciously on Infinity being as “good enough or equal” rather than being superior to break down the inner protectionist barrier. Don’t discredit the competing German vehicle’s engineered capabilities.
After arrival at the ski resort, show the family of the Infinity SUV going skiing and the family of the German SUV all sitting around reading one book that says “how to ski” while they try to simulate the action with one ski pole.
Repeat the same lifestyle advertising concept for different activities and to match the season. Keep the humor high.
Tagline: Afford the lifestyle you deserve.
Ha! That would sure work better than their current humorless snob campaign.
+1 on the SUV having the best shot to compete (The FX that is, not the EX).
A couple of problems though; it’s not the most roomy car around, in fact it’s quite cramped inside for its size so that might be a problem with all the skiing gear. It also doesn’t get the same mileage an X5 gets so that’s a bit of a problem…and it also doesn’t deliver the same power as the BMW’s I6 twinturbo diesel. In other words…it’s not the rational choice.
It is the bionic cheetah though…And because they sell so little of them over here (well I’m not in Germany but in the Netherlands it’s much the same story) it does stand out on the road. So yeah, they’d better focus on the emotional appeal of the car. Something like imported from Detroit but different.
The lack of variety in engine choices are a problem for Infiniti (and Lexus, Cadillac, Jaguar, Saab, etc). Looking at the price sheets for any european car brand (not just BMW), and you have a great variety of engines to choose from. Buyers have a choice between performance, great eco credentials, or varying degrees of both.
I think its also an incredible mistake to not offer a diesel in the G. WTF?
This is a bit of a chicken and egg problem for Infiniti. It does not make financial sense to offer a great amount of variety without large sales volume, but its harder to reach that sales volume without the variety.
The deal that Nissan signed with Daimler should help, as should the hybrid option for the M. The Renault-sourced diesel has thankfully turned out to be just a stop-gap measure.
As for fixing their sales problem, maybe they should just be honest and say something like “The G37: Not quite a 3-Series, but it’s as close as you can get to one without being placed on a mechanic’s Christmas Card list.”
Best answer yet. Unlike US car buyers, it appears (by the info from this article at least) that German car buyers, percentage-wise, are more patriotic than American ones. Or maybe their domestics are better than ours, leaving less incentive to go over to the dark side and buy Japanese?
This leaves me wondering how many Cadillacs, Chrysler 300s and Lincolns get sold over there….
The Chrysler brand is leaving the German market altogether in May. This February, 385 sales (for the brand). You could get 300s with 40% off sticker easily years ago.
Lincolns… no idea. There is a Town Car in my area. AFAIK Lincoln never officially imported anything here.
Cadillac isn’t in the statistics, but there’s a “GM” entry (51 cars in February) that isn’t Opel (17,917) or Chevy (2,337).
Since the 300 is supposed to be coming back with a Lancia badge, that should help, right? Oh, well… Lancia sold 87 cars in Feb.
Oh, and the G is only available as a G37 in Germany. Only with an automatic. So it’s not competing with the 3-series, it’s competing with the automatic transmission 335i. (but not the wagon…)
So the G37 is competing with… I’m not sure, maybe 0.1% of the 3-series are 335i automatics? Remember 94% of German 3-series sales are 4-cylinders. 57% of 3-series are diesels. The wagon is selling far better than the sedan, the MT far better than the AT. Infiniti is targeting an infiniti-semally small niche with AT G37s.
I’m not familiar with the German market, but maybe the problem is that in the US market Audi/BMW/Mercedes are sold as luxury cars, whereas in their domestic market they’re just sold as cars.
Personally, other than IKEA furniture and Michelin tires, I don’t have a Europhile bone in my body, so I have a natural immunity to “European cachet” and the marketing efforts of companies like Richemont/LVMH/PPR/etc.
That explains quite a bit, Mirko; the G37 is one if Ynfiniti’s better cars; I’m surprised they’re screwing it up over there that badly.
@Mirko: Why no manual G37? And why no G25?
Infiniti has forced itself into a small corner of the market for a number of reasons.
the biggest problem: no diesel in the G, which should be the volume seller. no real entry level petrol models either, just one engine option. sure, its a great value, but its targeting a very narrow section of the market.
lack of variety in engines – in the German brands, you can get varying degrees of performance mixed with fuel efficiency. in Infiniti, you cannot. Its a bit of a chicken-egg problem, as offering a large amount of variety does not make sense without good sales volume, but a lack of variety makes that sales volume harder to achieve.
thankfully the Renault-sourced diesel has turned out to be a temporary measure, hopefully the variety problem will be solved with the Daimler partnership. the hybrid M should help as well.
there isn’t any sort of entry level model to compete with the A3, 1-Series, A-Class, etc. that prevents a whole segment of buyers from even considering the brand in the first place. the company also doesn’t offer a real luxury flagship sedan, which can make it hard for buyers to take it seriously as a luxury brand.
the biggest problem: no diesel in the G
Exactly! The G needs a 4-cylinder diesel ASAP, with a good 6-speed. Renault has a very competent, refined 2.0. Drop that in ASAP. Then offer cheap leases.
More than 2/3 of all 3-series have a 4-pot diesel under the hood. Compete with that or go home.
A hybrid won’t help Euro sales. Hybrids don’t work well at autobahn speeds, which is what you buy an executive sedan for in Germany.
there isn’t any sort of entry level model to compete with the A3, 1-Series, A-Class, etc
They could build a RWD hatchback on a shortened version of their, apparently very flexible, FM platform. Is there a market for RWD hatchbacks? Look at BMW 1-series sales in Germany: 3,885 in February.
I thought they struck a deal with Daimler to get some Mercedes diesels in the near future? Or was that just for the supercharged petrol-4?
To get a general idea what sells in Germany, download the 4th PDF on that page:
http://bit.ly/dMEo3I
Good Lord…three Germans bought Ssangyongs.
Just let it be. Don’t compete – it’s useless. Nobody buys foreign luxury cars in Germany. You can sell cheap or even good cars there, but not premium cars.
Why? Because we’ve got Mercedes. And we’ve got BMW. And we’ve got Audi. And we like our own premium cars,not only because they’re as good as or better than the competition. One of the few things the average German can be proud of.
Doggone it, my eye(s) were too tired to spend time on the computer last night, but I can count on Educator Dan saying just about everything (mostly) that came across my mind. I can only add this: In recent history, Germany has always been the key to Europe – their society was the most advanced, the most civilized, productive and the most disciplined. Perhaps that’s stereotyping a bit, but mostly true. They (and I) believe German cars are inherently better than anything else coming from Italy or France, whether it’s still true or not, but the perception must still hold some ground over there, as how else can you explain it? Me? The only parallel I can draw is that in my perfect world, Chevy, and by extension GM, is still the best, but even I am more realistic than that, but that’s what I want to believe! Admittedly, I am not among the best or the brightest, but I do love cars and am passionate about what I drive.
GM (Mostly Opel, some Chevy) ranked second in German sales last month, behind only the massive VW Group, but just ahead of Daimler and BMW. I find this surprising; I’d have guessed it would come in 4th behind the German Big Three.
In fact, below VW’s 36% share, five brands (GM, Daimler, Renault, BMW, and Ford) are in a five way knife-fight for second; all of them hover around 8-9%. Renault-Nissan’s rank of fourth obviously wasn’t due to help from Infiniti.
Considering the average prices it’s actually quite impressive BMW and Merc can mix it up with Opel and Renault in the first place, even if most bimmers/mercs sold are 4 cilinder einsers, dreiers and A/B/C -Klasses
@JJ
Many cars sold in Germany are “company cars” and the likes of BMW, Mercedes and Audi take up a big share of that market.
Infiniti are trying to shift cars here in the UK too. Among their problems are:
– styling which might work in the far east but looks dreadful in Europe
– high price tags
– high CO2 emissions which means high taxes thanks to the government tax structure
– no reason to buy their car instead of a locally produced model
I would take exception that Germany has been the most advanced nation in Europe. The United Kingdom started the industrial revolution and continued for a very long time to be the most advanced industrial nation. You do not get to have the world’s largest navy and empire without a very strong industrial base.
Now onto cars – Infiniti is doomed and not just in Germany but across Europe. Look at the figures, Lexus after many years shifted 100 cars a month vs >15000 for each German make (0.6%). The same is true in the UK where Lexus has retreated to being a hybrid only manufacturer. But it isn`t just the Japanese luxury brands that are doing badly. Toyota and Honda sell very little and are easily outsold by BMW, VW, Ford, Opel (GM), Peugeot, Fiat and others.
You might or might not notice that your first paragraph is largely in the past tense. The UK was surpassed by Germany in the post-war era, as it was a cold war ideological battleground where the west could literally show the commies how it was done. The UK, meanwhile, largely stagnated in the innovation realm during that period. I think it would be ludicrous to try to say that the UK car industry has been more advanced than the German car industry. You also might recall that the Germans had a pretty formidable empire and navy for a couple of short periods there…
But yes, on to cars… protectionist policies and foreign exchange rates have definitely made it hard for any non-EU built car to compete in the common market. As much as the EU grouses about US protectionism, look to what is sold in the EU vs. what is Sold in the US and you will see who is being protected…
We also have to realize that at least MB also sells very small FWD cars that compete with the Versa whereas Infiniti only sells luxury cars. So those #s are a little skewed by comparing it to MB’s total lineup.
Well to start, the Germans have always had what you might call a nationalist streak… Why would they buy a Japanese car when there is a similar German car that will put them in higher esteem with the volk? A German might buy a cheaper foreign car, but they will not buy one that is more expensive and has less panache.
I think that Infiniti needs to diverge from the competition. As said above, show it is more convenient to own a Japanese car. Show it is good to stand out from the crowd. And definitely throw in some bargain package cars that are basically complete losses. More than anything, I think they just need to be seen. I think if there were some Q-ships and M’s that were strategically placed in fleet-lease operations, it could go a long long way to giving Infiniti the exposure they need.
And yeah, Enthusiasts like to use their brakes as much as their gas pedal. Infiniti needs to figure out how to let them.
I’ll grant that most Europeans are way more protective of their domestic industries than the US. My cousins in Germany, who I would say are average people by any comparison, buy a fair amount of non-German cars, as evidenced by the number of Renaults, Volvos, and Fiats they own. I think the real issue with the Infiniti is the lineup itself.
Until such time as Europeans start to care about things like reliability, Infiniti (and Lexus) won’t get traction. There’s no compelling reason for the advantages that Japanese luxury brings to the table.
When you consider that a) many of the vehicles in this class are bought for employees rather bought by customers b) that they’re turned in before they become a problem for their, ah, owners, c) that the Euro-market wings of the German marques don’t seem to be as wantonly cruel to their dealers and customers as they force their North American counterparts to be, and d) that Europeans don’t depend on their cars as much** it’s unsurprising that Nissan and Toyota can’t get anywhere.
Yes, a Lexus or Infiniti will probably cost less when it reaches high mileage and comes out of the warranty period. It won’t be as likely to strand it’s owner or saddle them with bills. To a European who doesn’t drive as much, doesn’t have to wait weeks for parts, has a bunch of decent service places and, most importantly, probably has returned their company car (which is now on the slow boat to a developing-market nation) by that time, it’s irrelevant.
** I would also add that Europeans don’t seem to care as much about reliability. I’ve seen this in a few product areas (phones and similar): levels of glitch and repair frequency that North Americans wouldn’t accept and that the Japanese would ban seem to be perfectly acceptable to your average European customer. On the other hand, there’s a value on initial refinement that North Americans don’t seem to have.
free Jetta with purchase?
Have you been to Germany? The Jetta is something you see 1-2 a month of if you travel in Germany. It’s available, theoretically, but it’s really something sold in much smaller numbers than, say, a Phaeton.
Small sedans, and most of all the Jetta, have a stigma of being for 80-year-olds with grey hats. Those people stopped buying Jettas when the first Mercedes A-Class came out.
Most Germans would be surprised if you told them Volkswagen still made Jettas.
I think Jack’s right, if Infinit want’s to get a toe hold in Europe they need to price competetively, and if they’ve got cars sitting on the lot then that’s about the only solution, other than shipping them somewhere else to sell, which would be more costly than having fire-sale prices. The home office has to absorb the lowered sticker price though, you can’t just leave this on the back of the dealers.
Or maybe Germans find the stumpfheit pro Euro to be a bit too high when it comes to the Inifinit.
For those who are saying that Infiniti has no place in the market: Ok, then let me pick one of the many other high quality, rear wheel drive, truly sporty entry premium cars out there instead – oh wait, there aren’t any.
I’m a huge Infiniti fan and I’ve been dealing with all the hassle of owning an FX in Europe for many years now, but it’s been worth it. However, I’d never get one new, even if I had the cash – simply because it’s not good value for money, which is the strength about Infiniti in the first place: 9/10 of the performance and luxury of a BMW, but with higher quality and lower price. If the price isn’t right the whole proposition crumbles.
Well, is that figure surprising? Guess which brand sells the most cars in Korea? Exactly.
Trade protectionism is rampant in most of the world. Among top markets, only the US and China are “free” markets.
In the US, people clearly favor Japanese cars over German cars. VW sold as many cars as Subaru last year. MB/BMW/Audi are essentially in draw with Lexus/Infiniti/Acura.
In China, poor people still drive prior model VWs and GM (remember the 1M WuLings included in its sales). Richer people drive Accord and Camry. Even richer people seems to favor German luxury brands a bit more. But it’s hard to say, because everyone’s sales number goes up 50%~100% per year. It largely depends on if the auto make has built a plant in China already.
Is this surprising? Many of our japanese cars are actually American, yet VWs are largely Mexican and not German. I always laugh when I hear the Top Gear guys talk about bulletproof, well-built Golf’s. Not here they aren’t. German VWs are overpriced in the US, and Mexican VWs are crap. BMW, MB and Audi don’t send us the cheaper cars they sell in Europe, as they couldn’t compete on price. Infiniti has the same problem in Germany. Ford sells European made cars in Europe, and so can compete. Nissan should open a local factory if they want to compete in Europe, and build cars for the market.
Infiniti’s number one job is to get around the ‘brand-deficit’ when being compared to the upscale German makes. No matter how good or superior it might be, in the eyes of a car consuming public, a BMW is a BMW and is instantly recognized as such, a Benz is a Benz and a Porsche is a Porsche, but an Infiniti is a plush Nissan. Or to put it another way, a Benz in the driveway says ‘I’ve made it,” an Infinity in the driveway says “I’ve made it and I don’t want anyone to know it.’ That’s not a judgment upon anyone on my part, but that’s the value of the marque vs. the value of the product. And if you can have the car with the great marque on its hood, for less than the Nipponese competition, why wouldn’t you?
Are you kidding me?
China isn’t anywhere close to being a “free” market; outside of countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, etc., China has some of the HIGHEST auto import TARIFFS in the world (in comparison, Japan has NO auto tariff on auto imports).
Sure foreign auto brands in China are popular in comparison to domestic ones, but that’s b/c domestic brands are still regarded as being vastly inferior.
Not only does China have high auto tariffs, but foreign automakers are required to enter into JOINT-Ventures w/ Chinese partners in order to sell cars in China (w/ the Chinese govt. now reportedly wanting the foreign automakers to launch “domestic” brands in China).
Otoh, foreign automakers in Korea are free to act alone (GM Korea, Renault Samsung, Tata’s ownership of Ssangyong).
As people favoring Japanese cars over German cars in the US, that’s only for the mainstream brands.
American luxury buyers definitely prefer German autos, esp. when it comes to purchasing traditional luxury sedans.
Infiniti’s sales in 2010 (103K) was LESS than HALF of that for MB or BMW and Acura’s sales at around 133K were still a good 90K short of what Mercedes and BMW each sold in 2010; even Audi, which has historically lagged quite behind its German rivals has caught up to Infiniti in yearly sales.
Furthermore, what helps the Japanese brands are sales of CUVS and SUVs; when it comes to sedans, esp. sedans at the higher pricepoints, aside from Lexus w/ the LS460, the Japanese brands fail miserably (and even for Lexus, the bulk of their sales are made up of the lower priced, FWD based ES and RX).
Re bd2
1) China: you are right that China is not a “free” market. But let me rephrase that China is currently an “equal starting line” market for the Japanese and Germany luxury car markers, so the comparison still holds.
2) SUV: What’s wrong with selling luxury SUVs? BMW sells plenty of X5s and Cadillac plenty of Escalades. Porsche sells more SUVs than sports cars and sedans combined.
3) Price: you sure the Germans sell more expensive models? Last time I checked, the cheapest Infiniti is a G25 and it’s a new model. It’s been G35/37 for the past several years. Unlike MB whose sales also include smart and B200. For Lexus, it’s been E350/IS250, more like a proper sedan than Audi A3.
“…they’ll pick up cars on trailer for maintenance if you live less than 150km away from one of their very few dealers.”
The people who live more than 150km away from a dealer are exactly the ones who need this benefit.
We can call Infiniti wannabe luxury, but not Lexus?
I like Nissan a lot more than Toyota.
edit: no seriously, and even with the chrysler 200 and that little buick thing calling themselves “luxury”, how can you discredit infiniti?
Why is Bertel absent from this thread. Isn’t Germany his fatherland?
Because he’s shaking his head.
I report monthly on German sales, last time here: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/03/germany-in-february-2011-new-car-sales-up-15-2-percent/. With a few clicks you get the monthly list.
Infiniti sales are somewhere under Nissan, just like Lexus sales are somewhere under Toyota.
I remember when Lexus was coming to Europe and my guys at VW were scared. Then, we saw the prices, and everybody relaxed. Same with Infiniti. The German buyer is not nationalistic at all. He or she buys a Romanian Dacia for a good price. But in a land where most taxis are Mercedeses, you need to give the buyer a good reason.
The German buyer is not nationalistic at all.
The German buyer who is buying this grade of car very often is having it bought for him/her by his/her employer, isn’t putting up with the American dealers**, and doesn’t put the kind of miles on it that an American would.
The advantages a Japanese car has (dealers that don’t suck, cars that don’t break down and cost a fortune to fix while you wait for parts) are minimal or irrelevant in Europe.
(I said this in another post which TTAC seemed to eat; I’m pretty sure I didn’t call anyone an _ss, either)
** who, to be fair, are screwed six ways from Sunday by the European head office
Bertel doesn’t want to give free advice to Infiniti…
or even Bertel couldn’t sell Infinitis here?
I believe Infiniti just waited too long to appear in Europe, and since they offer little that’s new or different or better than established brands, they’re getting largely ignored.
In America, I feel like Infiniti had the advantage of rising up around the same time as Acura and Lexus, and I think those three brands lent each other both exposure and legitimacy. It wasn’t alone or isolated in its newness; when someone took a look at one of the new luxo-brands, they’d likely hear about the other two.
When Top Gear first announced the launch of Infiniti in the UK, Clarkson and Co. laughed it off as “re-badged Datsuns”; going so far as to compare the G37 Convertible to the Dowdy Lexus SC430 (IMO the Infiniti is much better-looking).
By arriving so late, Nissan now has to relive all of those perception problems from jaded consumers. Infiniti? Isn’t that just an excuse for Datsun to charge more? Well, yes, but…
Interesting, but it’s a bit of a stretch to compare the G37 conv. to the Lexus SC430.
The boys on Top Gear in a comparison actually liked the Hyundai Tiburon for being a proper sports coupe (albeit FWD and underpowered) while they deemed the SC to be the WORST auto on the road.
There was an interview with the European head of Infiniti in Car Mag last year; he came across as being fairly realistic about their immediate chances, whilst putting on the obligatory optimistic outlook. But feeling themselves correctly positioned as a performance brand strikes the wrong note for me. Yes, they have big engines, but they don’t come across as being terribly dynamic.
Infiniti will remain a zombie brand in Europe like so many other aliens (Cadillac also springs to mind) until they start designing for the EU market. Big and bulbous certainly stands out, but there’s still something strangely Korean about them, à la Ssanyong, which is just wrong over here.
That’s gotta be one tough sell. Selling faux-German sports sedans in Germany.
The only Infinitis that have a USP there are the FX/EX.
I don’t understand why the brand sells in the States, for that matter…
Americans are less pretentious. That’s why they beat the Germans.
That’s gotta be one tough sell. Selling faux-German sports sedans in Germany. The only Infinitis that have a USP there are the FX/EX. I don’t understand why the brand sells in the States, for that matter…
Proven superior reliability relative to ANY European brand. Excellent performance and handling. Even better value. In the United States, Infiniti G35/G37 has been routinely regarded as a contender for being the top entry level luxury sedan. Maybe also, in the united states we’re not as stuck up and will buy a luxury car not only because of a badge that says it’s supposed to be a luxury car.
The German buyer is not nationalistic at all.
The German buyer who is buying this grade of car very often is having it bought for him/her by his/her employer, isn’t putting up with the American dealers*, and doesn’t put the kind of miles on it that an American would.
The advantages a Japanese car has (dealers that don’t suck, cars that don’t break down and cost a fortune to fix while you wait for parts) are minimal or irrelevant in Europe.
(I said this in another post which TTAC seemed to eat; I’m pretty sure I didn’t call anyone an _ss, either)
* who, to be fair, are screwed six ways from Sunday by the European head office
Good points but a couple of questions spring to mind.
Firstly, is it really correct that Europeans put less miles on their vehicles? From my own recollection from living in UK average annual mileage allowances for leases were higher there than here in Canada when I arrived 20 years ago and I would assume USA figures would be similar. That said, I’m sure it varies by State/Province as it will do by country in Europe. I suspect Germany has one of the highest annual mileages but I could be wrong.
Secondly, I’m not entirely sure I understand your assertion that the “Japanese advantages” are largely irrelevant in Germany. Why so? Are you saying that “company car” drivers don’t care about this? Or that they don’t have any choice? Again, just using my own experiences in UK as a company car user I usually had a choice of vehicles and the dealership experience was definitely part of the equation.
So, not trying to pick an argument, just interested in clarifying or expanding upon your points.
Firstly, is it really correct that Europeans put less miles on their vehicles?
I drive about 40,000 km/year. I’d say that’s less than the average German company car driver. You have a company car in Germany because you spend a lot of time on the road visiting customers. If you don’t, German tax regulations make having a company car suck for you.
Secondly, I’m not entirely sure I understand your assertion that the “Japanese advantages” are largely irrelevant in Germany. Why so?
The are not. Reliability is important. If you had a car with demonstrably higher reliability in typical German driving conditions (fast) while at the same time delivering good high speed fuel economy (which a G37 doesn’t…), that would be a marketing asset. But if you only offer a G37, you won’t ever sell enough cars to show up in the reliability studies.
If BMW only had a 335i, they’d be gone from the German market very soon.
The latest statistics I have have Germans driving an average of 12k km a year, so give or take 7500 miles. This is lower than what certain car manufacturers, such as VW, MB and BMW use (they have higher fleet sales, where cars are driven more). So yes, it most probably is less than in the US but about comparable to the Western Europe average (Eastern Europe has higher numbers, depending on where).
As Mirko said, a G37 will not show up in statistics either. Not having driven that particular car but having extensive experience with other non-German cars at high speeds in Germany, I am yet to come across a 5 series sized sedan that will be as stable above 140mph as the German ones. They might be as much or more fun and as playful lower down, however they are often not as tied down and rock solid when you reach speeds of 140mph and above – something that many of the fleet customers actually care about (and trust me, if you are driving fast for extensive periods of time, you want as little stress or twitchiness from the car as possible).
Infiniti’s number one job is to get around the ‘brand-deficit’ when being compared to the upscale German makes. No matter how good or superior it might be, in the eyes of a car consuming public, a BMW is a BMW and is instantly recognized as such, a Benz is a Benz and a Porsche is a Porsche, but an Infiniti is a plush Nissan. Or to put it another way, a Benz in the driveway says ‘I’ve made it,”
Yup. In the minds of many, prestige is more important than reliability and luxury any day. Even those who can’t really afford a Mercedes or Beemer often acquire one, owing to a severe case of “status” The cliche that sez “you know you’re afflicted with status if you buy things you don’t need with money you don’t have to impress people you don’t like” didn’t get to be that way by being false.
But for those folks who have truly “made it” and want to show off, the worst thing they could do is buy a durable and reliable luxury car from Japan. Buying a Benz won’t get it done either.
The answer? buy SEVEN Benzes, one for every day of the week. That way there will be at least one of ’em available for you to flaunt on any given day while the other six are in the shop waiting on replacement parts.
This strategy really rubs it in to all those lesser peasants. It’s like you’d be saying to them “I’m so bloody rich that not only can I afford to own seven Benz status-mobiles, I can also afford to have them maintained!” Kinda like rolling your own cigars in $100 bills and blowing smoke rings into their faces….
It´s not surprising that Infinity is having a hard time in Germany.
The country with such premium marques as Audi,BMW, Mercedes and Porsche.
It´s like importing ice to Canada
How would you fix the Infiniti sales problem?
Hot Asian women! All pictures of Japanese cars need to include beautiful models from the Far East. I’m sure Bertel could help point Infiniti in the right direction.
The first product priority needs to be to make Infiniti pricing competitive with the German brands. The next is to attempt to adapt the G sedan and coupe to German punitive prices for gasoline. In addition to a diesel G, would it make sense to make a propane powered G37?
Interesting idea… Propane (“LPG”) is cheap in Germany, so it would make the G37 cost per mile diesel-like. But propane conversions are something the average buyer thinks is for Dacias, Ladas and Chevrolets. Company car buyers want diesel, and that’s the market you want to be in.
Being one of the tiny minority, who drives a Lexus in Germany, here’s my perspective. When the car was bought, the level of service was exemplary and in terms of luxury offered for the price, the E Class my dad was driving at the time simply played in a much lower league. Sure, the diesel consumed a bit less fuel than the hybrid but then it was in a shop much of the time, something yet to befall the Lexus. The service experience in Austria, where it was regularly maintained, has been equally exemplary and leagues above anything the German competition offered. Same could be said of my experiences with it in the UK – and the dealer experience is certainly a factor (even if not the most important one) that can influence a car brand’s success.
Since moving to Germany this has all taken a dramatic turn for the worse. Booking a slot for fixing the recall work took 4 phone calls and 3 visits to the dealer – in my eyes a total disaster. When picking up the car, I got the keys and the message, it’s somewhere in the back – nothing about what has been done, why, getting me to the car, etc. It was missing the front licence plate too, which they grudgingly located after an hour.
While the car was there for the recall work, they miraculously also managed to unhinge some of the interior electronics (satnav, bluetooth, etc.), so I went back there for them to have a look at it (car is still under warranty). Sure thing, easy to do, have a seat, won’t be a minute. Then the receptionist of all people disappeared with the car for two hours, noone knew where to, coming back saying it still does not work, here are the keys, thank you, goodbye. After another trip the satnav was easily fixed with a software update (why did noone think of it sooner), for the bluetooth issue I was told to get a different phone.
I then had another sheduled maintainance trip there, with much the same experience. In all the times there noone has offered to show me any of the other cars, gauge my interest in buying another, show any enthusiasm for selling at all. In any case, if I consider this and their current lineup, I do not see myself thinking of another one soon.
Sadly the dealer experience at most German ‘premium’ brands is not that much better – just had a friend, who is an executive in one of the large German companies trying to book a test drive at Mercedes – the salesman first asked, if he was personally known at the dealership, when he said he was not, he said they could book an interview first, where they would assess his suitability (I was in his car, while this conversation was taking place and could not believe it) – the car after all is expensive and they cannot just let people drive it. Luckily he was well known at the Audi dealership and could get a car there, without undergoing an interview procedure.
Long story short, in contrast to the US, Lexus and Infinity dealerships are few and far between here and the maintenance costs are much higher than for a BMW, Audi or MB. If they are also similarly indifferent to their customers as the German brands, there really is not much of a reason to go for them (all arguments above), until the performance levels offered do not so spectacularly outperform the competition that they make them laughable (will hardly happen – even the GT-R, which for better or worse has no serious competition at its price point, sold a total of 83 times in Germany last year).
But assuming they really want to make a splash, cheap leasing, much lower prices, longer service intervals (Lexus and Infinity have them twice as often as the German competition, at least in Europe), better presence (I work in the automotive industry and we are a big supplier to Renault-Nissan, and still I am pretty sure that not more than 1 or 2% of my coworkers ever heard of the brand) and very improtantly, cars designed for Europe, so small diesels, which work (none of the Lexus IS220d debacles)… And even with all that, getting to 10% of the volumes of one of Germany’ big three luxury players will be a stretch.