My friend Goto, a former Japanese judo national champion who somehow got caught up in the Summer of Love as an exchange student in Berkeley, and who never looked or went back, once told me: “My father say, some people have death wish, and you have to glant it to them.“
There are some people who are just dying to lose posting privileges on TTAC. It’s fast and easy. Simply do what some commenters did. Hidden behind Gmail and Hotmail accounts, but posting from IPs located in Moscow, they sent threatening messages, and some involving the oral contact with male genitalia. The messages did not even make it on-line, they were caught by TTAC’s generally unpredictable “bad word” filter. The unpredictability of said filter makes it necessary to patrol the detritus and to rescue innocent messages from banishment (if your message does not show up, don’t post it twice. Someone will look at it and release it – or not, as they say around here.)
The story that triggered the threats and invitations to perform fellatio on some commenters was the SAAB story. Whenever we write one, we get those love letters from Russia. However, we have this nifty function here. It’s called “Blacklist” and puts the commenter into a virtual Gulag. We can do that faster than a comment is written. It’s kind of one-sided, so don’t even try. Or remember what my friend Goto likes to say.
Glant?
I’ll take some flied lice.
It was 6 am and I wasn’t awake yet.
“That’s fried rice you plick“ (Lethal Weapon 4)
No offense intended to the OP.
Was there a point to this article aside from implying that Saab supporters are abusive?
+1
Don´t you get threats when you´re abusing other marques?
Do
Saab supporters tend to have an extreme holier-than-thou attitude when they are defending their mark. They take pride in their faith in the survival of Saab like religious people do in the existence of God. Their optimism alone make them morally superior to those heretics and blasphemers who dare to be skeptical, and just like with religious people, rational arguments are frowned upon.
After the experience I had with my 2000 9-5 Aero, they needn’t tell me to go to hell. I’d already been there.
Contrarian: Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
Saab = Spyker = Suspected Russian mob backing money = Stories about Saab on TTAC = Threatening and insulting emails/posts from Russia whenever a TTAC Saab story appears.
I think the bigger picture is the set-up and back-story to the TTAC banishment story.
Or maybe I’m just doing what I always do, reading too critically, or cynically (sorry Schreiber, can’t help it).
I think that you filled in some of the lines that Bertel was hoping we’d read between. No disagreement from me.
It doesn’t surprise me that interested parties might comment here. When Ed ran my post about the Chrysler lawsuit over “Imported From Detroit”, someone registered as a user here specifically to post a comment attacking the IP lawyer that I’d contacted for expert opinion, saying that the guy was on the take from Chrysler and that Chrysler had no case. I think it’s logical to assume that person was somehow connected to the defendants in the Chrysler case.
Likewise, you have made similar logical assumptions about who is attacking TTAC over Saab critiques.
ai’m not sure why you’d bother obfuscating implications about the russian mob… anything that a reader gets, the ‘whoever you don’t want to get it’ will get. beyond that, i can’t imagine the russian mob sending guys out to attempt obscene posts. kind of a waste of resources, no?
that said, if you really -do- think that the mob is pissed at you for your saab coverage, and if the mob really does think your posts have a material effect on their return-on-investment… all i can say is that you”d better have your affairs in order. i wouldn’t touch that possibility with a ten-foot pole, and while fighting for freedom and truth might (miiiiight…) be worth the risk, i definitely wouldn’t put my neck on the line so i could make snarky posts about saab!
This might be why readership is plummeting and the comments are starting to dip into the low double-digits (often under 10) per feed.
I haven’t commented on TTAC in probably 1 or 2 years, because anything I say that counters the sensibility of the higher-ups is instantly deleted with a very derogatory response attached.
The irony here is that I’m sure this very post will be deleted as well. LOL!
How could you know anything about how many people read the site?
Posting about The Power of WordPress is uh ok well whatever I’d just rather not see it. I don’t think anyone cares.
Naaahh……I got to disagree DeanMTL. In Farago’s time maybe? Since the new folks have stepped in TTAC has grown a bit more liberal.
I read TTAC everyday, and can tell you for a fact, a little flaming, and some trolling, is tolerarated, but its kept civilized.
I agree with mikey – the comments seem to have become more liberal since RF left the scene. This is can be good – allowing for a more open exchange of ideas , including those that don’t conform to the management’s views – (see e.g., the somewhat childish all around kerfuffle over Jack’s Neon racing post where comment were all over the board). And it can be bad – for example, it can be irritating to get jumped on as an “idiot” because you comment that, for intangible, Romantic (those with dirty minds, note the capital R) reasons you prefer an MGB to a Miata, even though you make clear that you also like and admire the Miata. I think the good outweighs the bad, though, especially since it encourages the development of thicker skins.
I have noticed, however, that the number of comments generally does seem to be dropping. I suspect, though I have no proof, that this may be a function of the death of the ability to comment via iPhone/Droid, etc. I used to do most of my commenting from my iPhone because I travel a lot and that was the best way to surf the site while in an airport or on a train. Without the ability to comment with the iPhone, I comment much less, though there are still tons of times when I’m just dying to throw in my ha’penny’s worth.
The TTAC readership levels look to have been stable now for the past year, after a strong rise in 2009. You can see the independent stats here (not 100% accurate but a good indication nevertheless):
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thetruthaboutcars.com#
That said, I personally find TTAC less enjoyable than before, and Paul’s departure is one of the big factors. I now mostly come back just for Bertel’s industry insight and Michael Karesh’s road tests.
According to Alexa, TTAC’s “reach”, the percent of global Internet users who visit thetruthaboutcars.com, has remained pretty steady after rising fast during carmaggedon in 2008-2009. Though traffic dipped a bit at the end of 2010, it’s pretty much recovered from that decline and right now TTAC’s reach is close to historic highs.
@ th009: You do know where to find me now, yes? If not, click on my name.
Hey Paul, You were one of those who asked me to write about Gol. Your oinion is very important to me. Whatcha think?
Marcelo; I just left you a comment. I’ve been too busy to to do much reading lately!
Thanks for taking the time to do such detailed history. Part 1 was more accessible to me, as I am particularly interested in the Brazilia and early Gol. I will be doing a VW “Fox” CC soon, and I’ll let you know. Your articles will be linked there, and will help me fill in the early details. Thanks again, Paul
@Paul, yes, I do know your new address, and I do enjoy reading it. The separate site is good for you, OK for me, not so good for TTAC (in my humble opinion).
Thank you Paul!
@talkstoanimals… “more liberal… allowing for a more open exchange of ideas.” Are you serious? In a friendly open exchange, how does a liberal justify being a car guy or are you just here to tell the rest of us that we’re destroying the Earth? Hey, give up the keys and ride a bike man!
Well, this liberal used to just drive the muscle car (64 1/2 Mustang) a few times a month, and had a modern vehicle that got good mileage for every day. These days, I have a GTI which gets good mileage and still satisfies my enthusiast urges, and I have a sportbike that gets 40 mpg (but does pollute at a pretty high rate, I have to admit, far more than any car built in the last ten years).
So yeah, you can be a liberal and a car guy. Most of the old smog-belching cars are owned by people who use them as weekend cars only, see how that works?
There’s more to this life and this language than simple-minded political definitions. Do some reading. Start with a dictionary.
I suspect, though I have no proof, that this may be a function of the death of the ability to comment via iPhone/Droid, etc.
It’s still possible, but you have to jump through some awful hoops to do it: compose your post “offline” in Norepad and try for a few minutes to paste it in just the right spot. Then hope the gulag filter doesn’t eat it (as has happened to a few of mine, recently). I gave up posting on mobile devices, personally.
I think this is a good policy. One look at unmonitired sites should make that clear enough. Even though I was in purgatory there for a bit once, i still think its a good policy.
As for Saab, their cars are getting seriously nice looking. I hope they make it. As for the Russians, I can’t imagine why I should care.
Did you happen to own a red CJ7 some 18 years ago?
Completely agree – some websites that have lax monitoring are just riddled with unpleasant comments – basically I’ve stopped reading them.
Open debate still means you have to abide by certain rules, that is true in any civilized society. Parliament is run that way, as did the ancient Greeks. Strict monitoring and abiding by House Rules in crucial.
Comments have to be related to the story – not to the writer or another poster. Even here, there are some who question others views – that’s not a debate, that’s a one-sided, closed minded opinion.
Keep up the censors, and ban me if I step over the iine.
Moragn – I sadly didnt own a red CJ. HAHA – I would love to tho!
Ah too bad. I went to H.S in NJ. A guy in my class had a red CJ with Jersey Devil stenciled on the hood.
Thought perhaps you were him.
Also, here: I was going to email this but hate my mail client.
Please take me off the “this comment is awaiting moderation” list. I know it’s not entirely bullshit because I know I do post a lot of crap but honest to god it is the stupidest part of the whole darn blog system. It’s a big middle finger at the spirit of the internet to be on the needs-moderation list by default, to sometimes not let the comment through even if it isn’t bad, and to have such a list at all. If you can’t handle the possibility of someone posting something bad then you should turn comments off entirely.
Other than that, love you Ed, Bertel, MK, JB! I just don’t much like your CMS.
There is no list I can take you off from. The decision is made by a machine that creates extra work for us. Here are some pointers:
– People who sign on from Twitter or Facebook seem to be put in the moderation queue automatically. This means you.
– There is a “bad word” list with unknown bad words. I have no idea what’s on it. I’m sure your email address features on it prominently in bold letters. So do at least two words in this post.
– If you don’t want to be tasered by the machine, sign up from a regular email account, keep your effing language PG, and everything should be effing fine.
When you use your own time and resources to run your own blog, then you can decide what “the spirit of the internet” is (for your own site). If you don’t like TTAC’s moderation policies, you don’t have to post here; in fact, you don’t even have to read this blog. Moderation is a lot of work for those who run the site and have to look at all the posts awaiting moderation. If they didn’t feel it was necessary, they would probably love not having to do this extra work.
Cole: I think the problem is that your registered email contains a naughty words, meaning your posts are automatically sent to the gulag. We try and stay on top of the innocent banishments, but unless you re-register with a new email address, you’ll just have to wait while we liberate your nuggets of wisdom.
Interacted with Russian immigrants in Concord, CA at the bestest dismantling yard in the free world.
Cultural diversity involved.
Agreed upon consensus by ALL who had anything to do with those folks (a horde of them, attracted to “fixing” vehicles and selling the semi-running wrecks to suckers who equated shiny paint and newly-painted engine bays with quality)agreeing it was time for the USA to seal the borders.
Horrid tales of interactions before owner banned the entire extensive mob…. who commenced visiting after hours…. and were angered severely and threats and vandalism commenced when local statutes enforced.
But… diversity is our strength!!!!!!!
Yeah I understand why things are monitored but also completely understand Bertel’s comments about the unpredictability of the filter. I’ve been posting here since 2008 and haven’t been able to figure out a ryhme or reason behind it.
One of the main reasons why I signed up for commenting privileges on TTAC is because TTAC has displayed a sense of class and appears to try to maintain such. Of course, sometimes, but not too often things are written and commented using terms offensive to me, but that’s because my standards go back to a time when certain words and phrases were not used in any mainstream media such as newspapers, TV and radio, as was the norm up to the early 1970’s, but mainly due to my personal beliefs about using such content. I don’t know the level of traffic on TTAC, as I don’t think you can garner numbers from commenters, but I’m not in a position to know. A certain other car site recently referred to turns me off due to the immature and inappropriate content their writers and commenters display, so I have only been over there about six times. Here? I try to comment at least once a day and not on every article, but generally read all the columns and I thoroughly enjoy many of the articles and comments. I hope TTAC continues its increasing respect in the auto industry and grows to be the number one auto website it should be.
@ Zackman……well said
“…TTAC has displayed a sense of class…”
TTAC definitely projects a unique sensibility, but I wouldn’t call it classy, despite Bertel’s tuxedo. (Even with the best of intentions, a tuxedo makes you look like a waiter.)
If you want to be a classy automotive journalist, you have to wear an ascot. Just ask David E. Davis or someone who knew Jerry Flint and they’ll tell you all about it.
For you, Bertel in a kimono.
That’s awesome!
Okay, okay, how about “Upper crust”, “Top-drawer”, or just plain old “Number One”? After all, I do wear a fedora!
WELL spoken, Zackman. TTAC seems a few cuts above many other sites and I enjoy reading its regular contributors, both the articles and comments.
Excellent policy. Nasty comments, flame wars, etc. cheapen the site and dumb it down. It really was a mess on here before Farrago cracked down. I say that despite the fact that once or twice my messages got moderated. Small price to pay.
Forgot to mention: the NPR ombudsman’s blog has regular trolls. It chases interesting commenters away.
I can tell you firsthand that trolls can get pretty nasty in real life. Had a fellow back in the Farago days who used to call my house whenever I was away. Even managed to make prank calls during the week of my father’s funeral. Finally, after it was investigated by a local detective, he threatened to blow the heads off of the county’s police officers and dialed 911 50+ times stating he would do so.
There ARE geneuine nuts out there. You won’t see me complaining about moderating posts. If the comments weren’t so thoughtful most of the time, I probably would have stopped posting here way back in 2007.
I don’t know what to say… but let me try: sorry you had to go through that.
And here I thought my last conversation with SAAB people was absurd. Guess I was lucky, as it was free of threats or offers of sexual favors. At any rate, I once had a blog which I simply used to get back to regular writing. It didn’t have any subject, nor did I even tell anyone about it, but I still had to go through the comments and hit the delete/block button every time I logged on. I don’t envy seeing what must be lurking in TTAC’s maintenance page.
My most dearest comrades! I denounce myself for any strident posts in defense of the Fiat marque!!
Of course, I suspect should I be forced to donate funds to secure a place after re-education camp, the vile monies will be properly redistributed through the convenient channel, this is the Inner Circle Party of Redistributed Funds for the Inner Party Committee™.
And who said the “R” word and associated it with Fiat? This automechanical device was specially designed for the driving pleasure of the masses. What other manufacturer can produce so many smiles per mile, for just a handful of kopeks? It’s just for The Common Good™ !
I don’t think that you can predict anything about the popularity of the site by the commentaries. A lot of comments means it’s a popular or controversial subject. That’s all. Some very popular posts have almost no comments because, other than thanks, there’s not much to say in response. C’est la vie!
Actually, there is no relationship whatsoever between how many times a certain story gets clicked on and how many comments it gets.
“Actually, there is no relationship whatsoever between how many times a certain story gets clicked on and how many comments it gets.”
No relationship whatsoever? It might well be a weak relationship, but let’s not get carried away.
Strippo, generally, not all that weak even. Maybe BS is feeling a bit defensive :)
A post that gets zero comments typically gets less traffic than a post with 10+ comments. Beyond that, the number of comments offers zero insight into traffic, at least here at TTAC. I’m sure other sites have different experiences, but I’m not in a position to comment on that.
Since my previous comment might have been misinterpreted, let me say that the fact that TTAC tends to have posts like this one that stimulate frank discussion is one if its great strengths. It’s what keeps me coming back! When folks see an article with lots of comments, it can and sometimes feeds on itself (at least it does for me, to see how the conversation is unfolding). I’ll bet this post gets the most views today, and for good reason. Nothing like starting a nice free-ranging discussion on a rainy Sunday.
The correlation undoubtedly varies considerably, depending on the article and other factors. And frankly, I certainly haven’t seen a drop in the number of comments here. I wish my site had as many. Something to aspire to!
I side with Paul on this, as I totally agree with him. Cars and how they relate to our everyday lives is often more than just driving from point “A” to “B”. I thoroughly enjoy when a connversation digresses from a topic at hand and takes a different direction, and even into a sub-topic among commenters not related to the subject at hand. It is for this reason I signed up! Yes, Paul, I do enjoy “CC”, too! I regard it as a sister site, whether true or not.
I don’t comment nearly as often as some of the regulars here but I do try to follow the articles posted every day. Been doing that since the early days of Robert Farago. Found most articles to be interesting and concisely in line or diametrically opposed to my line of thinking about one of the great passions in my life: cars. I requested posting privileges because I sometimes feel compelled to comment on the articles or observations and comments. The people being banned for their comments probably are the same ones who made comments on the MSN auto boards and other non-players in the past and caused the demise of those venues. I, for one, enjoy most of the articles on ttac and look forward every day to what I can learn from them. One observation: the articles on ttac have taken on a much gentler and far less edgy tone since the days of Robert Farago and I have noticed that in several articles written by ttac authors who shall remain nameless, much of the ‘truth’ seems to have evaporated before publishing, as in articles on certain Detroit manufacturers. While no one likes to harp on the bad past performance of the American car makers, or the wisdom of bail outs, hand outs, nationalization and exceptional tax and accounting privileges for Detroit, it would be far from the truth to persuade unwitting readers to accept the notion that Detroit has emerged from carmageddon as a world-class automotive competitor in just two short years! The downward trend of more than thirty years of spiraling into ruin reversed in just two short years. Imagine what we could do with America’s economy and job market if that concept were true.
Nobody said that the D3 emerged as a world-class competitor in two years. The rebound from the nadir of auto world has been well under way for quite some time, though not in a smooth, progressive way. More like fits and starts, but anybody who is willing to put personal bias aside – something that is not easy to do – can see the dramatic improvement over the last 10 years. World-class? No, but the domestics generally have at least a few class competitive products for most categories. Some areas, like pickups, they lead, despite the best effort from Japan. But since cars have such a long gestation period, much of what you see now was under way before carmageddon. Will the beancounters be kept at bay? Don’t know but that is essential for a crack at the world’s best. The “worlds best” have stumbled a bit, witness the decline in Toyota’s interiors or the poor reliability of many MB models. So now is a great time for Detroit to splurge the extra $400 on interior materials and reliability. For once, circumstances may get some Japan-only buyers to at least look at other makes. I’m not a Buy American type, but you might say I’m a “Try American” guy. Those who have not driven a new American car might be quite surprised with the latest offerings. If not, at least nobody can say you mindlessly bought your third Honda out of habit. Generally speaking, it pays to have an open mind. Some posters here (two come to mind) would have you think that it is still 1981 when it comes to Detroit.
RE TTAC comment policy: I like it! So many internet forums are nothing more than a steaming pile of excrement because of the childish name-calling and curse like a sailor mentality. Some push the envelope a bit by making useless political rants when they are not really relevant to the topic at hand (and, no I am not referring to psar; his are pretty much related to the discussion). Farago was too extreme…I recall having a number of posts “edited” though I don’t think I was ever fully deleted. The modern era TTAC has the balance right. I guess all I would add is that should a poster be put “on notice”, an email to the poster would be a good idea.
Interesting comment, husky, especially since I WAS a Buy-American fan for decades, which included both domestic cars and domestic trucks. I would like nothing better than for the D3 to succeed and, most of all, pay back all the tax payer bail out money, loans, and more to the US Treasury. In all reality, I don’t believe that to be in the cards, precisely for the reasons you outlined. It takes a long time for the new, improved quality of the D3 products to become self-evident and I don’t see any young people even willing to try American. The ttac comment policy is what it is, and I accept that. But as far as the ttac commentary is concerned I have a preference for Farago’s biting and concisely-worded comments that cut the wheat from the chaff and didn’t beat around the bush, or worried about what the sponsors or owners would say. Maybe I read between the lines but several authors seem to mince their words when it comes to publishing their findings, and I find very little criticisms expressed. If this is meant to elicit fiery comments from some readers, like in the Saab article, then the comment policy kicks in. Kinda sorta like circular diplomacy, or one good hand job deserves another…
It was interesting reading the recent Farago review of the Fiat 500 (US spec) and the review in the April edition of Motor Trend. The two experiences couldn’t have been more divergent.
My cousins residing in the UK tell me that the perception of Fiat’s 500 there is the pits. It is rated pretty much at the bottom with Chrysler products. But in spite of that I believe that there is a huge market even for the Fiat 500, imported from Italy, in the large metropolitan areas of America. Given that, the Hyundai Accent, its KIA siblings, the Toyota Yaris and the Honda Fit just seem to be so far ahead of the Fiat 500 that it is all alone and appears to be leading the pack. But the sales numbers will tell the story. With BYD setting up shop in SoCal we’ll know very soon how well the Chinese will be doing competing with their disposable cars.
I have friends who are taking delivery of their cars here in the U.S. as I write this. The only experiences we have to go on are the experiences of our X1/9 club British friends who have owned the 500 for a couple of years now. All positive, but they are people who may be more attuned to the “driving experience” than comparisons to the car-as-appliance experience of a Yaris or Fit.
Farago review? Do you mean Karesh?
Yes… Karesh. That explains it!
It was interesting reading the recent Farago review of the Fiat 500 (US spec) and the review in the April edition of Motor Trend.
Wait a second, did you just imply that there was something interesting about reading Motor Trend?
If your friends are “attuned to the ‘driving experience\'”, wouldn’t they want to try that driving experience before deciding to buy? Have they never driven cars that they expected to like, but didn’t? Typically, people who buy cars they’ve never driven either don’t care about them beyond their function as an appliance or are buying them for fashion, even if it’s the fashion of the appearance of an interest in the driving experience.
Pick up the latest issue of Car and Driver at your local library. P.J. O’Rourke has a review of the Fiat 500 and if his assessment is correct Fiat might be in trouble just because the young folks won’t buy it. The class of 20 something college kids he was teaching seemed unimpressed, with one girl likening the car’s face to “Hello Kitty.”
Yes, I read as many magazines and carblogs as I can find time to… Motor Trend included. It allows me to discern between visceral dislike and a little dyspepsia.
PJ is a funny man, but I wouldn’t value his opinion any more than that of my next door neighbor, who recently retired from CalTrans.
I have zero use for PJ, but reading multiple sources, including Motor Trend is a good idea. There is a lot of subjective aspects to automobiles and multiple opinions is a good thing
I won’t buy a Fiat 500, neither Imported from Italy nor Imported from Detroit. But I do think it will be a great success in the big cities, primarily because it will cost less than say, a Mini-Cooper, now made by BMW. OTOH, if people really are interested in city-cars, there are many currently on the market for a lot less than what the Fiat 500 will be marketed for, and without the baggage or the historical track record that is synonymous with the name Fiat. And as far as the driving experience vs the utilitarian-appliance experience, I see no wisdom in racing from stop light to stop light in a Fiat 500, or taking on the curves and twists of a parking garage, at speed.
As they say on Slashdot, “In Soviet Russia, Saab will Spyker you”. Well, they don’t actually say that, but they could. Russia? Rather drink vodka, or even drive a Saab than own a GAZ Volga, or Moskvitch…I guess. However, I’m not sold on a Russki connection. Everyone knows that since at least about 1917, it’s been left turn all the way for those guys, which is completely opposite of and against the idea of “torque steer.” And what’s with all that perverted stuff? I never thought of SAAB as one of “those kind of cars,” if you get my drift.
I don’t believe there is a correlation between having a thick skin and having interesting, entertaining and useful things to say. In fact, some of the most abusive people are also some of the stupidest.
Lax moderation policies result in many people I would like to hear from, being unwilling to post on far too many discussion sites. So I add my vote of thanks for the moderators’ hard work keeping those with personality problems under control here.
I just don’t get why people (mostly “media” and anti-Euro types) want SAAB to fail so bad. It’s even more confusing because those specific Honda/Toyota fans are obviously not really “car people”, so how did they know this site existed unless they were pointed to it on the job? It just reeks of a conspiracy of some sort to me.
Same concept of pro-Japanese car people CONSTANTLY questioning Euro car’s reliability as if millions of them aren’t sold every year since the dawn of time with no bad consequences yet. I don’t get the point of the excercise. If they are really individuals posting that stuff, they aren’t “car people” anyway (obviously, they don’t drive real cars!), so how would they know about a car site anyway? My parents drive Prius and Accords. They couldn’t even get to C&D website, let alone this one. They don’t LIKE cars. They like to get to the store and to work with as little input as possible. Something fishy going on with the anti-Euro stuff.
So….if some Russian bankers want to put a spanking on those outlets trying to rob them of a chance with SAAB, so be it. At least they didn’t sell-out to China like Volvo did. Seems like some people want to dish it out but can’t handle a response?
What I don’t get is the antipathy toward UAW.
I would like to take this rare opportunity to call upon all of you to join me in declaring our feelings of solidarity with all of America’s unions. It’s the unions that make America great. It’s the unions that make possible free stuff for all of us, from health care and vacations to mortgages and gas and Obama money. And while other countries cowardly cowered behind their so-called “special forces” with all their scary guns and huge carbon footprints to evacuate their citizens from Libya, it was the United Brotherhood of Chartered Ferryboat Operators who bravely and courageously stepped forward and accepted the call to demand nothing less than the very best in safe, comfortable working conditions with the most generous of compensation packages; and that they be paid BEFORE getting their passengers to the other side. Many thanks to our government for billing all evacuees for expenses, so that the UBCFO can continue to do its good works in keeping not only the ferry but the USA afloat!
There must be a plethora of concepts that spyked doesn’t get. spyked, you just sound like a racist. European good. Japanese and Chinese bad. You’re so evolved. (that part is sarcasm in case you didn’t get it)
I think people are more amazed that Saab still lives than they are rooting for them to fail.
The deal with the UAW is they 1) are strongly engaged in the political process in favor of a larger role for government and 2) I believe that the cost of union benefits and work rules is offset by a general cheapening of cars built by the UAW. Union retirees get medical benefits and the consumer gets cheap interior plastics and low bidder parts that just barely outlast the warranty. I believe that GM, Ford, and Chrysler know how to make cars in the US that are competitive with their non-union rivals, but union benefit costs force them to cut corners in ways that screw over the consumer in the long run.
There are vast land areas of the US where straight roads follow a 1 mile grid pattern and cars are essential to daily life. A day when the car is in the shop is at least as disruptive as a day when the electrical power goes out. I don’t think European manufacturers really get this aspect of America. In contrast, Toyota and Honda embrace the American market and work very hard to meet the need for workhorse vehicles that usually give about a decade of reliable service without disrupting busy lives.
If you look at TrueDelta.com, and/or Consumer Reports, you’ll find that taken by continent, the European cars are at the bottom of the reliability heap. Of course, a few European cars are very reliable, and some Asian cars are awful. But in the reliability dept, as a group, the Americans have overtaken the Euros.
Spyked, your rant doesn’t make much sense really.
Because your parents drive a Pruis and Accord, and don’t (more like, choose) not to go onto C&D’s website, that makes them not car fans. So, you’ve determined from this that anyone who owns a Toyota or Honda (or similiar Japanese brand) is not a car fan and should not discuss their dislike for European cars?
Have you ever considered that those people who own such Japanese cars, like myself, do so because they’ve had negative experiences with European cars or quite honestly, cannot afford the initial purchase and continous maintenance of a European car? I can enjoy driving and vehicle ownership without having spend too much money every month. An Audi Allroad or Volvo Cross Country is really not worth the extra money over a Subaru Outback, in my mind.
People are entitled to spend their money where they want, and often they will change their “loyalty” due to poor experiences with the other side. Why do you think so many Mercedes-Benz and BMW (as well as other luxury marquees) moved over to Lexus?
GeneralMalaise, I’ll have you know that we just got a brand new tripple monitor set up for us at wok, and I have to request a new one for spitting my Dr. Pepper all over my screen with that comment. Bravo sir. Bravo.
“Same concept of pro-Japanese car people CONSTANTLY questioning Euro car’s reliability as if millions of them aren’t sold every year since the dawn of time with no bad consequences yet. I don’t get the point of the excercise. ”
TTAC seems to attract a lot of people who hate driving and badmouth those who appreciate or drive cars that aren’t the latest fuel-efficient direct-injected hatchback with kajillion-star crash ratings. That’s why I hang out on Paul’s site and Hooniverse more and more.
I just don’t get why people (mostly “media” and anti-Euro types) want SAAB to fail so bad
Well, in my case, it’s from loving the car and really finding the brand appealing, only be abused by terrible quality and a lack of direction. And then you hang out with other Saab people who say the same thing.
Eventually, you just want them to be put out of their misery
Big Three “Beat the Reaper”?
Some people here have an agenda.
It can be to discredit a certain car, bashing unions or downright racist views.
The perils of free speech. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have an agenda… and thank God they do. If you don’t have a strong opinion about something, you’re not alive.
The union bashing can get old. I also don’t expect a factually grounded discussion about global warming. I think there is room in the blogosphere for a more well-rounded conversation about the role of the automobile in society.
I have mixed feelings.
I remember during the carmageddon years of 2008-2009 when the typical post count would go past 100 for each article. There were some pretty rude and snarky fanboys here. After the crackdown, the discussions seem more…I dunno…mellow? Sometimes boring!
Kind of reminds me of the 2003-2006 years when Boeing and Airbus fanboys were alive and kicking as those two corporate giants duked it out to see who’d get more orders. Airliners.net forums were always lively and full of discussion. Of course, you’d always get the occasional hard-headed patriotic American poster getting mod-alerted for a rude comment or some borderline racist French poster getting mod warnings. But after that time period, the threads got a bit boring. Not saying I love flame wars, but it’s nice to see a bit of debating goin’ on, ya know?
Somethings are getting VERY old.
“My father had a Fiat 30 years ago and it was crap, so Fiat 500 must be crap.
“Ford Mustang is the seventh wonder”
“Diesels are useless in cars”
You just have to hope that people here are smart enough to know what´s true and what´s someones propaganda.
Buckshot wrote: Some people here have an agenda.
Everyone has an agenda. Some are just more interesting and expressed more intelligently than others. As the erstwhile Mr. Zappa once said, “Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform, and don’t kid yourself.”
I suggest you put this post as a stickies on the home page somewhere.
Similar to that, I suggest someone does something with that completely out of date horizontal link list at the top of the page.
“My father say, some people have death wish, and you have to glant it to them.“
———————–
“There are people in this world who go about demanding to be killed. You must have noticed them. They quarrel in gambling games. They jump out of their automobiles in a rage. They humiliate and bully people whose capabilities they do not know. These are people who wander through the world shouting, “kill me”. And there’s always someone ready to oblige to them.”
–Vito Corleone
It’s even more confusing because those specific Honda/Toyota fans are obviously not really “car people”, so how did they know this site existed unless they were pointed to it on the job?
I’m guessing you’ve never driven a Honda VTEC 4 banger full out. Sweet music, especially attached to a well-tuned suspension.
Anyway, as a Euro car lover (I’ve owned Audi, BMW, Volvo, Jaguar, and currently Saab), there’s nothing that drives like a well-crafted car from over there. But because of frequent and expensive repairs, my Euro cars have always been the ‘toy’ car, and my Japanese cars have been the workhorses.
But to be honest, once my financial situation improves, my 9-3 Aero convertible is getting traded in for a Mustang convertible……
because those specific Honda/Toyota fans
Edit: Huh. Nice. In the edit window, I underlined the word “specific” because it appears you overlooked it (and the point). Apparently the text editor doesn’t properly translate it into HTML, or whatever WordPress disgorges in its place.
Back in the Farago days comments on this forum site were meticulously monitored, not even the slightest thing got past. Any time I went off even a little R.F. would personally send me an email warning me to knock it off. He once criticized me for ‘flaming’ after I called the Honda S2000 ‘a car for girls’ (the man just loved to critique). Nit-picking as it seemed, I did enjoy the personal touch and knowing that someone was on the watch, keeping the discourse neat and focused. This is the second such post from Bertel, and I’m happy to know that someone still has a strong hand on the ban-hammer. Thus I will save my flaming and trolling for Yahoo.
I wonder what he has against girls. :)
I was driving a friends’ Saab 9000 turbo when I was in high-school. Awesome car, even with an automatic….and snow tires.
Parked for a little scooty-poo-poo in the dark section of a Perkins parking lot, and subsequently blew the head gasket.
That’s my only experience with Saab.
I’ve been posting here for a while, had no idea there was any sort of auto-moderation in place. Must have misspelled all my profanity. Just keep in mind that not all fellatio offers are bad.
Lend me your ears.
Ears? Now that’s just filthy!
+25, highdesertcat.
LOL! Just stringing you guys along. It’s called ‘double entendre’ or something like that. Don’t want to offend anyone, especially Bertel or Edward Niedermeyer, but there are all sorts of ways to get around filters, if you really, really want to get your point across. I’m not one to push the envelope. I don’t comment very often, and when I do it is only on threads that I have either a vested interest in or something that I have personally experienced. I can’t stand the fools who talk out of their as s even though their mouth knows better. And, by golly, we have an overabundance of them here, concentrated on the automotive sites. Lord have mercy!
I love the comment policy here, it’s the main selling point of the website as far as I’m concerned and features prominently whenever I bring up TTAC at work or with friends. For what it’s worth I’ve gotten in some obnoxious arguments here without ever getting banned, and my comments only get delayed when I throw in curses or mention certain body parts, fair enough in my book. Of those delayed comments I don’t believe any have been outright rejected, and no one has ever emailed me to change my “tone”.
Even when RF ruled the roost it seemed pretty liberal to me. I made something of a sport of contrarily disagreeing with him at times, and I never felt like my stance or approach was unwelcome (possibly annoying yes, but unwelcome no).
FYI, someone who called someone a female hygiene bag was just banned.
The comment had been caught by the bad word filter. Nonetheless, there is zero tolerance to name calling, attacks and threats. I recommend a reading of the Terms Of Use,, especially the part where it says “You may not use the Web Site to post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, pornographic, profane or indecent information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any local, state, provincial, national or international law.”
Further down, there is also a part that disallows soliciting anyone “to visit another competing Web Site,” so please go easy on hawking other sites, unless it’s done in agreement with TTAC.
Not hawking, but this is for Wert. Since I know he’s trolling this thread, seeing as he’s one swing of the banhammer away from getting the Bertel whack…
Your redesign, Ray. It’s not good. Go back to work over there. So is it a fight when one website, like actually works, and the commentary of the one that, like works, actually causes the readership to smile because of the mutual respect and insight?