Ed writes:
Sajeev and Steve – I have 3 kids ages 8, 5 and 2 and have two cars – a 2009 RAV4 4WD 4cyl with 20k on it as the daily driver and a 1995 525 as the fun-to-drive car (well, more fun than the RAV4, at least) which is just about to turn 200k and I just sense that something very expensive is about to happen so I want to trade up and get something used, but recent, in the $15k – $20k range.
What do you recommend in a sedan that is a good drive, is reasonably economical and won’t cost a fortune to maintain? The catch is that it needs to hold 3 kids in the back!
Sajeev Answers:
Judging by the ages of your little ones, I assume booster seats rule your life. But you want a good performance sedan, a good long-term value and an easy time with three child seats? Fantastic: its like I’m constantly tormented by the Best and Brightest to either quit completely or run full tilt…on Panther Love.
Then again, the older Mazda 6 is fun, economical and the kids might not hate the back of it. The newer, bigger 6 and Honda Accord fit the bill, but will be at the high end of your price range. As a single guy belting in my nieces/nephews into CUVs loaded with car seats, your idea doesn’t jive with me. I wouldn’t want a “loser sedan” with that many children and their, um, accessories in tow.
Screw the loser sedan. You need a “super sedan.” Three kids in mind, why not trade up from a 525i to a somewhat low-mileage Mercury Marauder? The suspension is tight enough, the steering doesn’t suck, acceleration is brisk, ride is amazing, unquestionable durability and there’s room for everything! Plus, much like your non-bangled Bimmer, Mercury Marauders look better with every passing year. Be a hero to your kids, drive a super sedan and feel the Panther Love.
Steve Answers:
I think Sajeev is an old man in drag. There is something almost Borat-like in his insatiable love for a 20+ year old platform. “You like old car. Yes?! It’s good old car. Yes? It fit one cow in back and trunk hide whole family of mother-in-law. Yes? You buy old car now!”
Yes, Marauders are nice. But they are insanely overpriced for what they are. I have a 96′ Grand Marquis with flowmasters, a tuned-up suspension, and plenty of interior upgrades for a retail price of $3995. If I were wanting to blow $12k on an old coot’s car I would just change out suspension bits, put in some nice quality tires, throw in a flowmaster and call it a day with at least half still in the bank. The 4.6L can be modified to some healthy lengths if you chose to do so.
But then again, why should you? One car that happens to be an excellent performer at the price range you’re looking at is the 2008 Nissan Maxima. I would try to procure one from a good private owner and have fun with it. You may want to take the boosters and child seats with you to make sure the kiddies can fit.
But what would New or Used without at least on darkhorse in the stable. My endorsement par excellence would go towards a 2006 Infiniti Q45. You want a nice interior? It has it. A mind-bending 340 horsepower engine? Yep. Enough seating for two child seats and a booster? Absolutely. Plus they have the double compliment of classic conservative styling along with a strong quality level for it’s final year. On the road it is a far better ride than the Maxima.
The dirty little secret of the 15k to 20k range is that for daily driving, it’s usually a flagship car with warp speed depreciation that offers the best bang for the buck. For the guy looking for more than just another BMW, Lexus, Acura, Mazda, Camry, etc., the Q45 offers all the distinction without a bangle butt or a high cost powertrain. If you’;re looking for fun, space and comfort the last Q offered it in real world ways that won’t bankrupt you. Give it a spin.
Need help with a car buying conundrum? Email your particulars to mehta@ttac.com, and let TTAC’s collective wisdom make the decision easier… or possibly much, much harder. In a rush? Don’t be shy about asking to cut in line.
The eight-year-old won’t need a booster for much longer, if he/she does today. So these three kids will fit in the back of just about anything. Among Infinitis, a G or an M would likely be more fun-to-drive than the Q. And you can get a stick in the former. A Cadillac CTS, Nissan Maxima, or any Acura sedan could also serve well.
The criteria include “recent,” but how recent? Obviously newer means more expensive. Probably won’t find a luxury sedan that’s just 2-3 years old under $20,000.
You can check reliability stats on various possibilities here:
http://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability.php
Sucks to be a kid nowadays. The 8-year-old will be stuck between two car seats in all probability. “Mom ‘n’ dad, I’d rather go next door and play with Ricky!”
I’m with Steve on this one. There are some depreciation queens that are great used value and the Q as well as M and Acura RL are good contenders.
I would wager good money that the Nissan or Infiniti isn’t as wide as the Merc, although would be a tighter fit for the parent leaning in.
I won’t speak for Sajeev but I like his frequent suggestions for a Panther as too many go in with preconceptions and write off vehicles before they give them a spin.
Yeah, like my wife.
TEXN3,
She’s a tight fit but not as wide as a Merc?
Definitely not as wide as the Merc.
I meant regarding the Panther being a write-off. Since we both make large-purchase decisions and often trade vehicles…a Panther is out of question. I have no clue why. A Town Car would complement the Outback perfectly. Heck, their names even imply their purpose.
Re: Q45
I personally think the M45 (Y34, 2004-2005) is the better looking car with the same power-train. I have looked at many and they are definitely a bargain for the performance.
Perhaps it is sacrilege to say, but I think it is better looking than the 2005-2010 model, it just has a look that has always drawn my eye…. slap some Borla’s on and call it a day….
I think he said “reasonably economical” which pretty much rules out every Infiniti ever made and the Marauder. The Maxima may do it, and he might be able to grab a new body style Volvo S80 at that price. Just the right size for three across and safe for your precious cargo. The new body Mazda 6 is cavernous…also a possibility if you can get one for the money. Neither should feature the overly sculpted back seats that make booster seats such a nuisance.
May I suggest the Maxima-in-drag I30/I35? The VQ30 and VQ35 are known for stellar reliability and very decent fuel economy, it’s just as big as the Maxima, is a bit more distinctive (and a little more rare), and often is the same price or cheaper than a comparable loaded Maxima GLE. They even had the trick pop-up nav screen in the dash before it became popular with everybody else. Of course, twist-beam rear suspension… But I never had any complaints with my ’98 Maxima.
The I35 isn’t “recent” at this point.
Missed the “reasonably economical” myself. Also not sure how to interpret it. A Mazda6 V6 probably won’t qualify.
For an economical, affordable, reliable, fun-to-drive sedan the Acura TSX might be the way to go.
Or wait for a 2011 Suzuki Kizashi Sport to pop up used.
For real-world fuel economy:
http://www.truedelta.com/fuel_economy.php
Infiniti G or a TSX are going to be quite small, no?
I’ve always been a huge geek for the last-gen Q45. I think they were wildly underappreciated when new, and have gotten even more so with age. They routinely see 200,000+ miles with routine maintenance. Not even in the same league, but my ’95 G20 has 208k on it and it runs nearly as well as a new car. Harkens back to the days when Japanese reliability was truly several cuts above the rest. The Q seems to have always been built with the utmost care, though it’s nearly impossible to find a first- or second-generation example that’s been cared for well, mostly due to the order-of-magnitude depreciation and three or four buy-here-pay-here owners looking for a cheap ride with a V8 and leather seats. Last-gen Qs can still be found in the first set of hands and with attentive maintenance performed since new.
That anecdotal evidence and $2.15 will get you a cup of coffee.
Infiniti G35/37
Hyundai Genesis
MB E350
2004+ Acura TL.
And a new transmission. Unless it’s the (gasp) 6-speed, I’d recommend against.
TL transmission troubles ended in 03 with the new model introduction.
Manual shift with modern emissions-focused throttle-by-wire tuning is 2 times less fun and 10 times less convenience of what it was before.
it’s too popular and therefor not discounted enough from new to make financial sense.
Acubra: my friend with the 05 TL on its 3rd transmission will be happy to know that the problem ended with the 03s.
@jpcavanaugh:
Without knowing your friend’s driving style, the manner the vehicle is maintained or the decency of the shop that performed the repairs, I will not argue.
I just picked up a 2008 for $20k, and love it – and it’s thrifty as hell – but I wouldn’t recommend trying to fit two booster seats and a tween in back unless you want teenage rebellion to start a few years early.
That would be fine if there was any truth to it. And no, anecdotal evidence doesn’t count. Out of the 182 04-08 TL’ reporting to TrueDelta only one had transmission issues.
well that just goes without saying….
6 speed with an ATLP j-shift pipe… perhaps a nice comptech ICE box…..
Acubra: Car was a CPO unit purchased at 2 yrs old in 2007. This car was the subject of a piston slap some time back. Owner is late 60s guy who maintains his stuff and doesn’t abuse it. Car developed a shudder going into 3rd gear (iirc) and dealer replaced the transmission under the extended warranty that my friend bought (and which, at the time, I thought to be the biggest waste of money ever – wrong). The replaced unit developed a leak and was replaced a second time. So far, so good. Car has about 70K on it now.
That and $2.15 will get you a cup of coffee. It’s unfortunate your friend has had problems with his car but it’s generally accepted (and the numbers support the idea) that the situation was resolved going into the 04 cars with the exception of some early run vehicles. If I remember correctly the issue was with insufficient lubrication to the 2nd gear components so any leaks or issues with other gears wouldn’t suggest to me that he had the same issue.
Current gen Mazda6 is an excellent match. I drove the 4cyl AT, handling was great and acceleration acceptable. The back seat looked like it could fit 3 child seats. Only problem is that most of the used ones are former Hertz cars. If you’re willing to sacrifice styling, check out the Ford 500 or Merc Montego. I installed one of those huge backward-facing seats in the center position. There is plenty of room left over in the outboard positions. Handling and fuel economy are strong points. Could use more power, though you could address this. Won’t be as fun as your 525 but it won’t break the bank to fix it, either.
Cadillac STS 3.6 V6 2005 or newer.
2004+ Altima 3.5 SE & Possibly the R? They can be had in manual as well…
+1 for the Maximas…although the 2002-2003 were the nicest ones made IMO (light weight, manual and decent power), the later ones were quite good on the spec sheet too!
03+ Maximas were rather problematic. Introduction of CVT just added more unpredictability.
The ’04 Maxima was the redesigned model. It had a standard automatic then and didn’t get a CVT for another year or two.
My boss had an ’04 Maxima. I can’t say I liked the car: it wasn’t all that roomy, nor sporty, nor well-trimmed. I drove one with a stick and it wasn’t really that thrilling; a contemporary TL Type-S was much, much better. So was the Altima.
The current Maxima is a much sportier car, despite the lack of a manual.
I’m sure the CVT’s on recent Maximas will turn out to be solid – if you go visit a Nissan dealership you’ll see that they’ve decided to bet the whole company on that transmission type, and they surely know what they’re doing. Though I personally don’t think I could ever find driving a CVT car to be a fun experience.
Relating my experience as a current Maxima owner (MY 2003, 3.5L V6, 6-speed manual) – The engine is sweet, though it’s most at home doing freeway cruiser duty. Strange to say that for a car with stick. It does enjoy the on-ramps though.
It makes sense for me as the only car I own, but I definitely wouldn’t get a Maxima to serve as the more exciting complement to an existing fleet. Unless I was going to up-tune it…
Pontiac G8 GT. Big back seat that will seat three children with ease. Huge trunk and a lusty 6.0L V8 up front. Hang with a BMW 550 at a fraction the cost.
Agreed. A G8 GT would be a great choice. Oh how I wish they offered a manual!!!
I think the Panthers maintained good structure during crash tests, but didn’t receive top side impact ratings because of a lack of side curtain airbags (occupants head would hit the pillar or the crashing car’s hood). Sajeev, correct me if I’m wrong on the Marauders or Lincolns.
The last generation 6 and speed6 were both fun, but I thought their backseats felt a little claustrophobic. That depends on big your kids are. I’m a tall guy, so it might just be me.
In the same vein, I wonder if a Fusion or an MKZ might fit the bill? A G35 sedan or a Subaru Legacy GT may be a possibility too. One option I particularly savor would be a v70r turbo brick :)
Yup, no side curtain airbags…for any and all Panthers, I think.
No side curtain bags in the Panthers but there are the seat mounted bags for the front passengers on the 03 and up.
Chevy Impala SS, or LTZ. Jewel red tint-coat.
:)))
FWD: TL
RWD: CTS
AWD: Legacy GT
If you’re willing to put up with some short-cuts on the interior, a first-gen CTS-V would be the ideal candidate.
You would not want to put 3 kids in the back of a Legacy or a CTS.
We do every so often in the Outback, same backseat as the Legacy. We only have two kids (1 carseat, 1 booster) but often have my neice in the car (she is 9) and is comfortable in one of the outboard seats. Compared to the 525 the guy owns, these vehicles are as wide as that (and maybe a little wider). Our Outback has a bigger backseat than my folk’s 2002 E430 4matic.
It sounds like this vehicle won’t be the primary family hauler anyways, that is the RAV’s use. And that backseat is no wider or more comfortable than our Outback’s backseat.
No not in a CTS, that is why a STS is a good choice.
The STS is a good car, widened and lengethened version of the original CTS. Plus, V8 power. But, it’s not quite as sporting. The rental CTS’s I’ve had seem reasonably roomy inside and have quite a large trunk.
I guess I was thinking “sporting” may also include the desire to have a manual transmission. Hence, my picks.
These newer uber-sedans (RL, Q45, not to mention Euro stuff) scare me, frankly. The 15-20K means they would be fresh out of warranty. That scares me even more.
Three kids require certain financial stability and predictability. Responsibility.
And when something, anything breaks down on any of these fancy toys – it is always a trip to a dealer (as everything has to be done with the car wired to the proprietory diagnostic tool). And it is invariably expensive trip.
I would lower the plank a bit and would consider a previous generation Acura TL (wide enough for 3 booster seats).
Another spacious contender would be a 2004-05 SAAB 9-5, either a sedan or a wagon.
If car age is not a scare for you, consider hunting for a low-mileage LS400 c.2000-01. They are bullet-proof and utterly reliable.
Yes a Saab 9-5 would be a good choice. They are reliable enough, at least here in Sweden. But it seems everything European breaks down over there and everything American is a POS over here. Strange!
You’ve got to be off your rocker saying that an older Japanese car would scare you…yet, a Saab is okay! I agree with the TL. Heck, my 98 is still running strong at 140k miles, and has only ever required preventitive maintenance. Of course, anything could happen but nothing so far.
You seem to forget that any larger city will have a great mechanic or shop that specializes in individual makes. Even in small-town Boise, there is one specialty Honda-Acura shop, a few Euro shops (staffed with certified mechanics of BMW, MB, Volvo, Porsche, etc…). Their prices undercut the dealerships and offer better customer service.
Not any indie will be able to deal with latest gen of CAN-bus/software tinkering, unfortunately.
Top models are especially bad in this regard.
And yu can count me crazy, but I stand by these two model years for SAAB 9-5 (not 9-3!) as having nearly Japanese level of reliability. Besides, they were still relatively simple and easy to work on.
Maybe not any indie, but those certified (and probably regulated) to work on their brands. And I’m sure any major/medium sized city will have one.
My father in law is a Saab guy, he is constantly under them (98 9-3, 03 9-5 wagon) or towing them (with his 89 F350 460cid 4-speed…love that truck) to the Saab mechanic. I guess they are pretty bulletproof though, since they are GM products. :P
I guess we could go back and forth, but you’re obviously more intelligent than I am so I will leave it at this.
We talked about this in last week’s NoU column (where I misread 9-5 for 9-3) and I still gotta say that I’m way more gunshy to any 9-5 over its non-Lexus Japanese counterpart. I’m still dumbfounded at how quickly my friend’s turbo V6 9-5 fell apart before 100,000 miles, even the interior looked tired…and not the kind of tired that a good cleaning could remedy.
The tranny eating Acuras look better and better.
Everyone’s tolerance for pain is different. I’ll leave it at that.
Well anecdotal is anecdotal….Our 9-5 wagon is still nowhere near “falling apart’ at 140k miles, and the interior is doing just fine, thanks. It is a 2004, as recommended by Acubra (and the base turbo 4 banger). Though I suspect just about any car that needs three kiddies in the back seat is going to have “territorial” issues with the siblings.
Just can’t understand all these panther love, frankly. The rental Mercury Grand Marquis I once drove was, well, pretty much what you’d expect from a traditional American luxobarge. Sofa-like seats, ponderous handling, leisure acceleration, zero fun. Novocaine on wheels. Perfect for octogenarians, maybe, but definitely not for anyone looking for any kind of fun behind the wheel. The guy mentions “good to drive” so that rules out any panther, I think. Maybe the Marauder version is different, still considering its baseline donor, I’d find it hard to believe.
Obviously the Marauder is different. And if the Cop Cars handled like the rentals, crime would run amok in our fair cities.
Go drive a Panther (in like-new condition, not a beat up retired Taxi) with a handling package.
Even as an owner of 2 Panthers, I second Steve Lang’s view to avoid the Marauder. Limited production and a tendency to beat on these cars translates to you’de better be sure who you are buying the car from.
Short-sighted to compare the Grand Marquis to a Vic with HPP package or a CV Sport, there is a dramatic difference in handling and driveability. I’ve also rented a variety of vehicles, some of them doted on here on TTAC, and had an equally low opinion.
In my case, I drive a Vic Sport with aftermarket tune/bolt-ons/suspension that I find just right as a daily driver, and with more than enough beans and handling to avoid the octogenarian tags. Hit to the wallet including purchase/mods less than $7K.
Like everyone else, my opinion.
“Just can’t understand all these panther love, frankly” Ha ha ha! MrWhopee: be careful, Sajeev severely beat me about the head and ears with his keyboard several weeks ago and Educator Dan helped to rescue me after I made a similar statement without clarifying my respect for the long-lasting platform! “Having fun” behind the wheel can also mean motoring along being secure in that what you are driving is safely conveying your family around without having to worry about what’s going to break next! Perspective!
Fun Marauder story: When I was still in the car business a gentleman came in with one that he’d performed significant upgrades to. He was curious as to what it might bring in trade and, after giving him a ballpark figure, we got to bsing about the car and what he’d done with it. The list was long but included a full aftermarket suspension package and (the fun part), all the bolt-ons and a blower. After saying, in the way that car guys do, how it must go like hell and how I would love to take it for a ride, he hands me the keys. Wait, what? Okay, let’s go! Nope, he’s going to stay at the store and poke around our used trucks a bit, have fun but bring it back in one piece. I waited until I was out of earshot and buried it. Nothing has caught me quite so unaware as going sideways in a pather at 50mph. I’ve driven faster cars but this one was probably the most absurd and, because of the absurdity, probably the most fun. Total monster sleeper. Car handled surprisingly well too, as long as you were careful with your throttle inputs.
@itsagovtakyo, now imagine doing that to a Town Car. It’s what I’ve always dreamed of. That my friend would be a sleeper.
That would be absolutely obscene hilarity, I would love to see it.
There is a huge difference between the HPP cars and the rental car issue vehicles. Different spring, shock, and sway bars and a quicker ratio steering box which transforms the handling. In addition there are steeper gears in the rear and dual exhaust for better acceleration. The Marauder suspension and steering tuning is all to itself being another step up from the HPP/Lx Sport/LSE tuning which in itself is better than the P71 suspension. Throw a set of ultra high performance 255’s on a HPP based rig and it will out handle most of the cars on the road.
@Mud So you’ve got ~7K into your LX Sport that is now worth about 1/2 that since mods reduce the resale value of a CV or GM, while I’ve got a little more than ~7K into my Marauder and IF I do mod it while I won’t get my money back $ for $ the right mods to a Marauder DO increase it’s value or at the least don’t reduce it’s resale value. And a stock Marauder will run away from all but a seriously modified 2v. I’ve been down that road with a couple CVs and a GM over the years and finally bit the bullet and bought a Marauder a few months ago and don’t regret it one bit. As far as the limited production factor CV LX Sports and GM LSE have lower production numbers than the Marauder making them actually harder to find.
@ itsgotvtakyo Yeah a blower and 4.10s in a Marauder can get you sideways real quick when it hits second gear if your are not careful.
You know why I love this website? I was just contemplating this question as a potential one for Steve and Sajeev. OK so my question was; “Name a big family sedan for approximately $15,000 dollars that I could fit 3 child seats in the back and would be great for high speed interstate runs and be fairly luxurious.” Now I don’t need the answer to this until I get married in 2012 but hey, here’s the answer! Now I just need to bookmark this page. Thanks guys, and the B&B!
Dan,
3 child seats in the back seat has been a long-time favorite poke at saabnet.com. as easy fit of them was proved by several members into the back seat of both 9-5 and 9000. While I would never recommend the latter, the former is my favorite, provided you look at 2004-05 vintage. Wagons rival much bigger SUVs on space, while they still drive no worse than a sedan.
Comfort is nowhere near premium level (BMW. Acura or Mercedes), but it is such a good ole; fashioned torque-steer fun…
Oh, and as for safety – the 9-5 has been a top star in Folksam (Swedish meaga-insurer) real-life cases-based ratings for many years.
Another bet would be a Volvo T5R wagon, but these are more expensive to run and for what I heard/researched – less reliable.
Another vote for a Legacy GT. A spec.B would push all the right buttons for the OP. I’ve heard that the later year interiors have been cheapened a bit compared to my wonderful, stealthy ’05 GT wagon, but, what a car.
I was “this” close to getting one a CPO Legacy GT wagon in 2008. Red with black interior, full sunroof, six-speed manual, new tires, always serviced at the dealer. 35k miles for $17k. Between me going home to talk to the wife and going back to the dealer that night, it was sold to a guy in Germany (!), he was flying to Boise to drive it to Houston and then have it shipped to Germany. Not sure if he was a serviceman, but man I was not happy.
Oh well, the Outback has served us better, it’s slower and not as loaded but the extra ground clearance sure comes in handy.
Pontiac G8 with the V6? I imagine those aren’t holding up as well as the V8s price-wise, and should have plenty of power compared to the 525 and still get decent mileage.
+1… nice pick!
We interrupt this programming for a special bulletin. These kids are not going to stay 8, 5 and 2. They continue getting bigger and the back seat of any sedan (and the whole car, in fact) will continue to become a more miserable place to spend time until they get to the point when they don’t want to go with you just on principal.
I have done 5 in a sedan. I have done it in sedans ranging from a 68 Chrysler Newport to a Honda Fit when 2 of my 3 teens were over 6 ft tall. If you contemplate this being your main car, don’t do it. Suck it up and get the minivan, or at least the SUV. In 2 years, you and your family will be miserable and you will be dumping either this car or the Rav 4 (and taking a bath either way) in exchange for some parental sanity. If your plan is to get the fun car now and then make your wife dump the RAV4 for a 7 seater, well OK then. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Psssssssss some of us have wives, or soon to be wives, who will gladly drive the “mommy-mobile” as long as we’re not afraid to switch vehicles when it’s more appropriate for dad to drop-off or pick up the kids or drive the car pool or whatever.
But I still understand your point.
I was going to come on here to make this point exactly — but jpcavanaugh beat me to it.
Ed, get over your preconceived notions and go straight to the minivan, or at least a 3-seat SUV. You’re gonna need it.
Can’t tell you how many of my new daddy friends started out saying, “No way, I’m not going to get a minivan. I’m not turning in my man-card.”
Then they play mom for a day, trying to cart the kiddies and all their stuff around on errands in a too-small car. Next stop, car dealer to try the minivan. Not a single one of them regrets it.
Look, cool is not a hot sport sedan at the expense of family comfort or your wife’s sanity. Cool is embracing your Dad-hood and getting the best ride for everyone in the long haul…speaking of long hauls, those drop-down rear seat monitors rock. You will appreciate them greatly.
Actually my lady told me to get a Mustang GT with a stick (she taught me to drive manual) as long as she can borrow it at least once a month. But I’m not crazy enough to think that a choice like that would make any long term sense. I like to keep vehicles for several years.
+1
The old adage has a very special and personal meaning when it comes to family transportation (and in other matters): If your wife isn’t happy, YOU won’t be happy! Back in the day when our kids were small and my mom lived with us, we needed a minivan because my mom’s AMC Concord and our Reliant were pretty small for all five of us. We couldn’t afford a minivan back then, so we made do, but if the cash is there, get the minivan and call it a day.
This is why Chrysler marketing a “man van” version of the Caravan makes a lot of sense. Actually, I’d prefer a minivan as a sleeper to a Panther based car. Put a 300HP V6 in an AWD Chrysler minivan, lower it a couple of inches, put Recaros or some other quality drivers seats in up front, and paddle shifters and I think it’d sell.
The notion of a performance version of the car your wife sees as practical seems like a win-win to me. Back in the heyday of the big American station wagon, all the mfgs offered their land yachts with a big block engine option.
Dads don’t mind driving mommymobiles as long as they move when you step of the go-fast pedal.
Swapping out cars sounds like a wonderful idea on the outside, but in practice, it doesnt work. One of us needs to cart kids in the morning, the other needs to do it after work. But we cant swap cars in the middle of the day. Or weekends… one of us is out, the other needs to go pick up kids. But the big car is gone.
All you guys are so funny with your sedans and talk of 3 kids in them. Yea, its technically feasible. Sure, the seats LOOK big, especially when theres no one in them. Yea, your cousins kid rides back there 3 across and it works fine. Once a month for a pizza run, sure. Hell, I rode in the back of my uncles 911 with my brother and LOVED it. But would it work for my parents?? No way.
Bottom line… sedans work for 2 kids just fine. When you made the choice to have 3, you bumped up into minivan land. I only have 3 kids part time, and I bit the bullet. We tried to make it work with a sedan, it wasnt worth the hassle. We got the minivan, then the 3-row SUV. Sure I hated driving it, but it made our lives so much easier and less stressful. Its simply not worth the hasslesm the whining, the BS of squeezing everyone in the car. Now my kids are grown and we both got fun cars… thats the Circle of Life, auto-style… :)
But if your in a minivan how are you supposed to develop “vacation elbow” that allows you as a father to reach back and “reprimand” any child in any seating positon? That would be hard with 3 rows of seating. :P
How about a 2008-2009 Ford Taurus (used to be Ford 500) or the rarer Mercury Sable? These cars were overlooked and sold poorly new, so they’ve suffered huge depreciation and can be easily had in great shape for $15K today. The 265-hp 3.5 V6 provides good power, they drive quite decently, the interiors are fairly nice, the trunks are enormous, and there’s more room inside than even a Panther. Plus, they get reasonable mileage, they can be had with AWD, and can be fixed anywhere. Be sure to avoid the CVT, though.
Those didn’t have a CVT in any model, dropped with the 500. Also had a much softer suspension than the 500.
Not a very sporting choice, but there is a lot of positive chatter online about the 500/montego/freestyle combo (renamed to Taurus/Sable/Taurus X in 2008). Several of them have been reviewed on TTAC:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2006/07/ford-freestyle-limited/
and one was a recent Piston Slap:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/02/piston-slap-sensible-shoes-in-need-of-blue-suede/
I’ve been following these, and Michael has a Taurus X:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/12/truedelta-crosses-over/
Hope these links are helpful. Their titles kind of hide the cars they’re reviewing.
I saw my first “Ford Five Hundred Enthusiast®” today. Tan 500 with limo black tint and +1 size chrome wheels. “They see me rolling, they hatin’…”
I suggest your next sedan be an Odyssey by Honda. After the initial slight reduction in your testosterone level, you will be blissfully happy with your decision for years to come.
So true, so true.
If you need to fit 3 car seats/boosters, you are screwed. But, if you want something fun & roomy at a decent price, to fit a car seat & 1 booster, how about:
Magnum wagon with the hemi
or
Chrysler 300c?
Wikkid fast, roomy, easy to fix, nice ride, great stereo, not floaty & pretty new.
I have a 2007 Nissan Quest and a 9, 6 & 3 year old. It has been a great van but its still a van. I’ll be picking one of these up once the kids are 11, 8 & 5, with only 1 booster seat among them.
Yours are just at the age when you can get out of a van. Happy hunting!
+1!
Also, if you don’t want to completely lose your manhood, maybe try test driving a Caravan R/T when they hit dealerships. Go back and read Jack’s review of the new Town & Country to see how well it handled. The suspension on the R/T is over 20% stiffer, which equals more awesome. It’s the man-van for people who would never consider buying a van. Like the anti-van, at least that’s what Ralph Gilles said.
“I think Sajeev is an old man in drag. There is something almost Borat-like in his insatiable love for a 20+ year old platform.”
It’s not a twenty plus year old platform. It’s an eight year old platform. The Panther platform was redesigned (one of many) in 2003. Apologies if this has already been pointed out, didn’t have time to review fifty previous posts.
Panther Love is more fun when you perpetuate stereotypes, so shame on you for pointing out the harsh realities of the situation.
Hey love is love, and car loves rarely make logical sense. I’m 6’4″, but my dream garage is still going to have a ’88 CRX. I asked one of the B&B questions related to Panthers and I was totally sold until I realized there’s no way the gf would be able to drive that big/long a car.
John, it was a redesign in 2003. The last generation that could even qualify as a genuinely ‘new’ model has been out since 1992.
We’re talkin’ different things here, gentleman.
The “bones” of the Panther were given updates in 2003 with hydroformed frame rails, one year before the F-150 got it, and cosmetic fascia changes. They might’ve outboarded the shocks this year too, but I’m not certain.
The “redesign” in 1992 put an all-new body and engine on top of the existing chassis. No differences between the chassis of the Box 1991 and the Aero 1992, although I’d love to be corrected on that count.
86er, And I’d love to correct you on that. The 92 while retaining the hard points of the 79-91 chassis was significantly changed. New spindles, upper control arms, brakes, up front, boxed frame rails in the middle, and disc brakes out back along with different spring and shock rates all around are the significant differences between the last box and the first aero.
98 brought a new rear suspension and back frame section to accommodate it.
03 got the completely new front suspension with coil overs and the rest of the frame.
So if you look at a 92-97 and a 03-11 on a lift other than the body mounting locations the trans pan and diff cover you won’t find much that is the same.
Looks like I need to spend more time on Crownvic.net or Grandmarq.net.
Thanks Scoutdude. I should’ve figured the Box and Aero Panthers had significantly different “bones” as I own a 92 and have driven a few older models and the driving experience was surprisingly different.
Why do you need a sedan that seats three children, two in car seats, in the back to replace your “1995 525 as the fun-to-drive car.” Seems to me the fun to drive car shouldn’t have to meet the practical requirements of the family; evidently, that is what the RAV4 is for. If you want some practicallity from a sedan that holds two in the back seat for much less than $15k, I recommend the first gen Mazda6 with the V6 and manual transmission. I’ve got an ’04 that I still love to drive to this day. No major repairs, only a new clutch and new brakes, both wear items. And, I’m sure if you are a kinder gentler driver, you could make the clutch last much longer than I did. Take this car for your commute, and you will be much happier every night when you get home from work, which should make your wife and kids happier as well. Not to mention the money you will save over a land barge to haul the whole family around in. See now everybody is happy.
Because sometimes you’d rather take the more fun vehicle for a family trip. It’s just not feasible to have one vehicle solely for family use.
As much as I’d like it to be…it just isn’t. I had thought about getting an S197 Mustang GT in the next few years, even with just 2 young boys and the Outback, it’s really not practical.
A 4 door is, so I’ll wait until G8 or CTS prices come down a little more. Even a WRX wagon would be fine with me. A little tighter squeeze in the back though.
The Mazda6-6-6 isn’t a bad choice either if a front-driver is preferred.
My guess is he is making that choice because the RAV4 is proving to be too small for family duty with 3 kids. They are small, but its too new to justify trading it in just yet.
And there is a WORLD of difference in having 2 kids and 3 kids. Friends/cousins dont count, its not the same. When little Jimmy’s best friend comes along, thats an adventure. When 3 siblings have to sit next to each other, thats a war!
Chrysler 300 or Dodge Charger. I know for a fact they have three LATCH anchors in the back seat. Big massive V8 power, reliable with cheap service. The hard plastic interior might actually be a plus with three kids – easy to wipe down and won’t scratch.
My GTI has 3 anchors in back, really, that doesnt mean anything. Those are there because the safest spot for a car seat, esp a rear facing one, is in the middle. But if you have 2 kids, you need anchors on 2 sides. So they put three. Doesnt mean 3 seats will fit across at the same time.
Dont get me wrong, I love the Charger and 300, the Magnum too. But the back seats arent really all that big, and definitely not kid friendly. They sit so low, they cant see out, thats just begging for puke stains all over the seats, esp when dad is having fun with the Hemi. Not very efficient either.
Now if he can talk mom into the Grand Caravan?? Then hell yes, a SRT8 would make the perfect dad car to go with it.
3 kids + like to drive = Odyssey. No other choice.
Whoops, you made a mistake, I’ll fix it for you:
3 kids + like to drive = FAIL
There’s nothing that will make you look cool with 3 ball n’ chains in the backseat.
HEY LOOK! An ignoramus.
No one said anything about trying to look cool. Like to drive doesn’t equal trying to look cool.
Kids are definitely not a ball n’ chain, but I’d venture to guess you don’t have any or are no where near mature enough to be in a serious relationship where kids are a consideration.
If so, please keep your comments to yourself…Jalopnik, Autoblog, and LeftLaneNews are found elsewhere on the internet.
CreepyMayne,
Cool is an attitude. I have a friend who’s an elementary school rabbi. He and his wife have 10 or 11 kids and he’s one of the coolest people that I know, absolutely comfortable in his own skin.
As for family cars, my ex and I have three kids and until we got our minivan in ’91, we took the whole family camping in a 2nd gen Honda Accord and a two door K car. Actually, it was the last camping trip in the K car that convinced us to buy a minivan. Once can only tolerate so much bickering in the back seat.
You’re not really a grown up until you’ve driven on an Interstate at 70mph, holding the wheel with one hand while the other hand flails wildly behind you as you scream “shut up! shut up! shut up!”. I remember once pulling over to the side of the highway somewhere in Pennsylvania after they got me so pissed off that when I told them that they were either going to start behaving or they’d have a long walk home to Detroit, they were convinced that I’d really leave ’em by the side of the road as we drove off.
Still, they’re about the only truly worthwhile thing I’ve done in my life and I’d never call them a ball ‘n chain.
@Ronnie… +1 million dude!!
Great way to look at it. My kids can be royal pains in the rump. Actually, they often are. I remember trips like that like it was last week. Well, it was last week, they never really quit that bickering thing.
But they are also awesome and cool and fun and amazing, definitely not ball and chains…
If the Q45 looks promising, check out the 1998-2000 Lexus LS400 as well. The fit and finish is superior, and it’s cheaper too. And it’s equally distinctive as the Q, albeit far better looking.
I just got a super clean 1999 LS400 (and I’m 22!), and it looks amazing. In photos, they’re easily confused with the Lexus ES pre-2002, but in person they have a terrific presence, understated and masculine. It has classic, firm lines, before Lexus got all swoopy and Hyundai like (eg, ES circa 2002). For better or worse, when it’s in motion, it’s so smooth you can barely tell. It’s hard to find ones with low miles if that’s what you want, but they are out there. Mine has 54k.
I’m going to throw in for the oft overlooked (and unloved in some quarters) 2003-2004 Infiniti M45. It looks good, in a conservative, square, Marauderesque kind of way. But it has decent interior, decent power, and is generally pretty affordable when one can be found. As a long distance admirer of these cars, I know nothing about their reliability, however.
I love these questions… yet another dreamer who left “fun to drive” in the hospital room when his wife had the 3rd kid!! Dude, get over it… buy yourself a minivan or big SUV and enjoy your stint as The Family Guy. Your small SUV isnt really big enough, that should have been the fun to drive vehicle. Actually, from what I hear, the RAV4 IS fun to drive, even with the 4cyl, so enjoy it (though the V6 would be much more fun!). In a few years, your kids wont need constant shuttling and you can get yourself a nice sports sedan. Maybe you can talk your wife into driving the family car, and letting you drive something fun. Good luck… mine didnt go for it either.
However, if you MUST have a car choice answer, get yourself a used minivan for around $10k, there are tons of nice ones for that available. Then spend the rest on a fun car that fits your budget, to drive when your alone. A Miata, a Mustang, an old E30 BMW, Alfa Spyder, MR2 Spyder, Nissan SE-R, Z28, etc etc… whatever floats your boat. There are tons of choices in the $5-10k range when you dont need to count on it starting every single day. And your family will be much happier in something roomy and modern.
I agree with mnm4ever. How bout a gently used Mazda 5 (manual of course) and put the cash you save towards your fun car.
If you don’t want to do that I’d recommend the mighty Pontiac G8 GT. Fun to drive and will walk all up and down that 525I of yours.
I hate to be the buzzkill but it sounds like what this guy needs is a *shudder* minivan. As other posters pointed out, the kids aren’t going to stay 8, 5 and 2 forever. A friend of mine has three kids that are roughly the same ages and they’re just getting to the point where they’re not comfortable in the back of his W126 MB. Fortunately for them his wife finally gave up and got a van. I think the play here is to ditch both cars and get a van for utility/safety and something much less practical and more fun for your sanity, maybe even a coupe. We all know about the jack of all trades…
It might not be up your alley, but your budget could get you one heck of a ’94-96 B-body or W140 S-class, however I don’t know how that would work out safety-wise.
A Phaeton or XJ8L would be cool, but those would probably fall under “fortune to maintain”.
’96 Grand Marquis??? What sort of car guy would recommend a POS like that to anybody, friend or foe?!?!
I guess you must have missed Panther appreciation week here @ TTAC.
FWIW, the GM is a shadow of its former self. My dad, o’b’m’, had a 1974 Grand Marquis Brougham, black w/ a black vinyl roof and a gray leather interior. Every option possible, with a 460 V8 if I’m not mistaken. Other than the 5mph bumpers and the emissions choked engine it was a perfect living room on wheels. Now that was a real Grand Marquis, just a bit shy of the Continental.
Sure, you can quibble about the understeer, but I always thought that with all that weight on the front end, it was an engineering feat getting it to go around corners at all without the tires screeching. That car might have had the best A/C I’ve ever experienced. You could chilll your drink on the dashboard.
I simply adored the Q45 when I test drove it. It had great headlights, the interior embarrassed an A8 or S-Class, and the ride quality was a good balance between sport and comfort that the Hyundai Genesis should have benchmarked. I never bought it because it had relatively limited rear seat room for its size, and I thought the non-touchscreen nav system was an ergonomic disaster. I also thought the Q45 was too sporty for my tastes, though I’ve read reviews that found it too soft.
I’m running a full size sedan with 2 baby seats in the back, and I’d be honest that I envy minivan drivers with their sliding doors and cargo flexibility. I think the RAV4 ought to be the vehicle doing the hauling duties.
Seriously though, I read a few of the comments about the man-van, and it got me thinking. Thats what makes the SUV so hot. Thats why I bought one, I can name a dozen friends and coworkers who openly admit they bought an SUV because they hate minivans but they needed the room. A 3-row SUV works well enough, even though they arent ideal. At least they look cool. I imagine thats why the new Explorer will be a hot seller, it combines a very minivan like interior with SUV styling.
No, the Dodge man-van isnt gonna cut it, it still looks too much like a van. The proportions that make it so useful and practical is also what make it look “uncool” to the majority of people. I used to think my Grand Caravan Sport was really good looking… no one else agreed…
The current Town & Country looks pretty good in black. Like I said above, give a minivan 300HP, lower it an inch or two, put some nice rims on it and the right stripes and most guys wouldn’t mind driving them.
I recall a quote from one of the racing guys (Gurney perhaps?) who said tricking up (for real, not just cosmetic) a minivan was the secret to the ultimate Q-vehicle–invisible to the constabularies but hoot to drive fast…and the passenger room was still there.
So maybe the question should be: Which minivan has the most robust, easily modified, engine transmission combo? (And would a personalized plate that says “RPDTRNST” be too much of a giveaway?)
@Ed.Dan
You could buy an AWD Sienna, apply the engine programming from the IS350 and disconnect the front wheels from the transfer case. How’s them apples?
@psar:
The Sienna and IS350 don’t exactly share the same engine, and I don’t think you could just reprogram a 2GR-FE and get a 2GR-FSE.
Might be better to take the supercharger from an Evora or Aurion.
I know that my comment will probably be taken down, but really, does Karesh have to keep hawking his site? You know it kinda gives me the creeps because there was this person on epinions who kept going with his dad to dealerships and test driving cars and then giving these really long, detailed, and I will admit unique reviews on these cars that he just drove around the block…and it sorta reminds me of a “Karesh Review” and I am wondering now if he is not that epinions guy….! Sajeev, I want to get a Panther platform, but in Hawaii almost impossible as the cabbies want them…same goes for the Q45, I think there were maybe ten of that generation sold in Hawaii…
100% agreed. Almost every post is spammed by him within the first 3 posts. It is something that has bothered me for a while now. I almost wonder if there’s some script set up that automatically spams everything on TTAC with a Karesh post about True Delta as soon as it is published.
Karesh isn’t my favorite reviewer here but he does provide comprehensive, practical input for a certain demographic. TrueDelta is an AWESOME resource and I don’t understand why anyone would have a problem with him sharing it. I’ve been reporting on my car for about six months now and the real world, useful information collected on the site has made me a more educated and informed enthusiast and it will keep getting better as more people sign up and report.
While I love the Panther and the Marauder in particular you need or at least should really consider a 3 row vehicle you’ll be glad you did in the long run. Rather than a Minivan or a SUV consider a Freestyle/Taurus X. Slots in between a minivan and a midsize SUV for interior room with better gas mileage and handling than anything in the other classes of 3 row vehicles. The trade off is the Freestyle gets better MPG with it’s 3.0 instead of the more powerful 3.5 in the Taurus X.
I’m not sure how much tweaking they did for the latest refresh but chances are you could replace the springs and sway bars with take-off SHO stuff for a cheap handling up grade.
SAAB 9-5 would be an excellent choice. Especially one with manual gearbox.