TTAC’s twitter friend, Ethan, writes:
Hi Sajeev,
You probably remember my original query but this indecision is compounded by my second problem: I love the aforementioned Volvo, but with 185K ticking past on the odometer, the steering rack and other things are letting go.
The two cars I am looking at to replace it are both 2002 Ford Crown Victorias (yeah I’m giving up a little Panther love) priced at $3500, one is loaded with all the options with 120k miles and upon visual and driving inspection is clean. The other Panther is a Police Interceptor that was owned by a local mechanic, is very clean (and it doesn’t have the searchlight on the drivers side door), but needs a little paint. Which of the two would you prefer? And what would you suggest would be good options to make it a better driving and handling ride? I know you give love to the Panthers so I’m sure you know more than me on what to do.
And a follow up: some people tend to be extremely bold with their slightly stinging words about my letter to you and Steve. I regret not including this in the letter, but I have worked very hard most of my young life just to have the cars I own now. No handouts. With me trying not to tell you how much money was left to me, I did pay my parents’ mortgage off, made a nice donation to each of my favorite charities, stayed in school, and made life better for others as I saw fit.
Only one person–other than you and your readers at TTAC–knows I have this money and I plan on keeping it that way.
Sajeev answers:
This isn’t Jalopnik or Autoblog: TTAC solicits questions from our readers, and we get letters from real people back. Far from a perfect system, but we’ve expected respectable discourse from day one. While TTAC’s writers are guilty of baiting the conversation (insert sensationalistic media remark here) nobody’s really taken it to this extreme, until Ethan came along. Come on people, grow up.
Back to Panthers: while I love CVPI’s (i.e. cop cars), their interiors are too boring for most. The solution is doing significant interior/electronic swappage from a crusher-bound Panther. Awesome and worthwhile, but I suspect most are better with a civilian model, tricking it out with aftermarket performance bits: Bilstein shocks, Marauder sway bars, any number of aftermarket 17” wheels, a decent stereo and an SCT tune. So what’s the verdict?
Neither. Ethan should wait for a 2003-up model, or find one from the days of Dearborn’s honorable bean counting. The 2003+’s are so much better under the skin (hydroformed this, aluminum that, big brakes, etc) they might as well be a different platform, almost. And the pre-1998s are, quite frankly, a true Ford flagship in the Detroit tradition. If Eminem did a cheerleading bit for Super Bowl XXVI, the wind tunnel tuned, be-windowed and de-grilled silhouette of the 1992 Ford Crown Victoria would set the boob-tube on fire. Even today, it makes way more sense than that star crossed, aesthetically challenged Chrysler 200.
Because, when you import something from Detroit, you indirectly endorse Panther Love.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
Because, when you import something from Detroit, you indirectly endorse Panther Love.
I’ll refrain from Panther-baiting—this time—so I’ll restrict myself to pointing out that, like Chrysler’s rear-drive crown jewels, these are imported, but not from Detroit.
I bait mostly for your sake, FYI. That said, our Global economy is so, uh, geographically diverse that nitpicking on where a car is made has little relevance on where your car payment check gets cashed every month.
The Imported from Detroit ads shoulda had the 300. It came from people in Detroit, even if it is screwed together elsewhere.
I actually agree with you. Both are American products, but it’s the two-edged sword of selling based on nationalism. Sometimes a Canadian is just going to go and make a better product for you.
Case in point, the LS-4 V8.
Last time I checked, GM Powertrain was headquartered in Michigan…in the RenCen, IIRC.
Get the cop one. I don’t normally endorse cop cars but one that was owned by a mechanic after it left the police force… how can you pass that up?
I normally steer away from mechanic’s specials. They often have lots and lots of unfixed problems – “because the car still runs fine” – or fixes that are strange or temporary at best. And these cars are generally abused and neglected.
“I regret not including this in the letter, but I have worked very hard most of my young life just to have the cars I own now.” Should have told us! Too many posters here are somewhat dismissive of inquiries like this because no one on here has any money, me included, and thus do not take it seriously, so they (I) have a little fun! If this individual has come into significant means, great! Just don’t waste it on something as foolish as an overly-expensive vehicle. It appears Ethan has taken care of his parents, which is the right thing to do – I wish I could get what’s left of my mortgage paid off – and plan for the future, for the money will not always be there. The worst he could do is buy something all blinged-out, drive himself to his choice of evening entertainment, get loaded, wreck his car, get into a fight and get arrested and wind up on the evening news because he didn’t have a driver/wingman to watch his back. Now, if Ethan DOES have his head screwed on tight, then have a little fun and buy something middle-of-the-road, money-wise. EDIT: Don’t but an ex-cop car. Buy a recent-vintage CV or GM from an older owner as has been recommended by those in-the-know on this site.
On second thought, Chevy Impala SS.
No Maserati? Good! Don’t buy either and get a Marauder instead.
Panther is not replacing the Maser, it is complementing it.
If I had the coin to buy a Maser I wouldn’t bother looking at high mile CVs. Not when there are creampuff low mile ’05-’06 Grand Mas out there for $9k or less.
Good point, very good point. Listen up, Ethan!
Think the idea is to buy a beater…spending 9K on one would kind of defeat that purpose even if you have the coin for a Maser.
Personally I’d buy a 1980s Q-Porte next to the new one…Eventhough that too defeats the purpose of a reliable beater.
@JJ I see where you are coming from but 9K is still less than one years depreciation on a new Maser. Average new price for a 2011 Maserati Quattroporte S: $140k. Price for a still new 2010 Maserati Quattroporte GTS: $120k The real shocker- price of a one owner 2008 Quattroporte with 6k miles: $70k. $70k in depreciation in 3 years. Ouch.
Edit: According to Carfax, although the ’08 has existed for 3 years it was only owned for 1 year, 7months. Yowza.
I have a little different opinion than Dan. Get the civilian version. You don’t mention what trim level it is but it’s guaranteed to have many amenities the vomit comet will not. Unless the P71 has the SAP option.
I’ll bet the non-LEO Vic has a nicer interior. Cruise control. Auto lamp. No holes in the body. No weird wires hanging from under the dash. It won’t have dual exhaust but if that’s important to you, it can be had for $400.00 at any reputable exhaust shop.
Don’t get caught up in the cop car hype. There’s nothing in that car you can’t do without. There are a number of things in the civ Vic that you’ll miss if you don’t have them.
Johnnie Fritz’s rules for buying used Panthers #1 – Don’t ever buy a former LEO Panther no matter how good it looks. There is a civilian version out there somewhere for the same or less amount of money you’re gonna drop on the cop that’s way nicer and has led a way gentler life.
And don’t buy a Marauder, by the way. Too much money for a daily driver which is what I assume you’re looking for. Once you get into Marauder money then there are other cars you should consider.
Buy the civilian Vic. Be happy.
Huh???! First he wanted a Maserati, now he wants a 9 year old Panther? Credibility is being severely stretched.
On the off chance this is for real–and I really doubt it–I’d say, with the money you have, if you love the Volvo that much, you could certainly afford a general major overhaul. It might well be worth it, since old Volvos are likely to become collector cars.
Rich people own multiple cars, when they live in a college that’s far away from home. The Maserati wasn’t replacing anything.
Well, Sajeev, I don’t know what to think. I would say, though, that a former cop or taxi panther would probably have much less engine wear per mile than the civvy version, because in both of those occupations the engine is on all the time, so you don’t get the wear that comes from starting from cold all the time. Consumer Reports once did a test of different oils, which they ran in NYC taxis. They basically couldn’t find any wear in any of the taxis after 60,000 miles, no matter what oil they’d used. (Synthetic vs dino didn’t even make a difference, if I remember correctly.)
The engine, as far as wear is concerned, is probably fine.
The suspension is probably not.
Beat me to it. While they rarely fail, fleet Panthers have shocks, springs, ball joints and steering parts that are truly abused.
I would look for a civilian model 2003+ CV LX, which has MOST of the CVPI goodies without the whole “thrashed by a ^@#(*$& cop” issue going on.
-Rack and Pinion steering for ’03’s, much nicer than the 02 and back recirc ball
-alum. front control arms
-outboard shocks in rear
-inverted monotube dampers in front (instead of twin-tube)
-knock sensor
I believe the CVPI adds oil and trans coolers, better brakes, a 3.27:1 final drive, etc but this is all stuff you could DIY to improve a civilian CV rather than get a beat on LEO car.
+1.
Wow, we are deep in the Panther nuance, now. Was there not some commenter here that said to avoid the early roundy Panthers (i.e. the 92’s) because they were still getting the details of the switchover worked out between the old Windsor drivetrain and the new modular one? Surely, there is room for disagreement on the issue, but I still wonder what is it that went wrong after 1998 that got corrected in 2003? Just four random off model years in the middle there?
Some of the 1992’s came with what’s known colloquially as “The Bastard Block” these are to be avoided at all costs, but anything after a certain manufacturing cutoff date is just fine.
The suspension was revised in 2003, maybe some small adjustments to the frame design or something else. Made them handle quite a bit better.
I bought a ’99 former fleet Grand Marquis recently with 229,000 miles on it. Am I worried about the drivetrain or suspension? Not a bit. Ball joint and wheel bearing taken care of by my mechanic, 6cd unit in trunk replaced by yours truly with a junkyard part, and there’s a complete drivetrain out of a ’99 CV (on Craigslist) with a mere 160k that I could have *today* for $200 out the door.
The suspension changes in 2003 make a world of difference when it comes to handling. They also changed the airbox in 2004 and squeezed out another 25 horsepower or so as well for a total of 250. The seat of the pants difference between a 2002 or older and a 2004 or newer is dramatic. I’m driving a 2007 MY CVPI now after driving a 2000 MY pool car for four months. They feel like completely different cars.
You know, I appreciate his new letter and explanation, he really sounds like he has his sh!t together. But seriously, he should put that in the original letter. Many people advice is different based on the situation, especially when someone who is “young” writes in. By telling us he was a college student, he immediately brings out the fatherly advice. Its not being mean or rude, its natural to want to save them from making mistakes we made.
Think of how different the letter would have read if he said “I am a college student who got a very nice inheritance, paid off my parents house, made some donations and invested wisely for the future, and have decided to reserve $200k for myself for a toy”.
Every day I have to qualify myself for certain things, thats just part of life. When I was under 30, I had to qualify myself a LOT more often. As a young guy with money, he would be wise to remember to take that into consideration.
+1 on buying a 2003 or later model instead of a 2002 or earlier. I was recently permanently assigned a 2007 and the difference between it and the 2000 MY pool car I had been driving is night and day. It feels like a totally different car. Since both of the ones the OP is looking at are 2002 MY, my advice is that he needs to keep looking.
The retired cop car can be a good deal as long as you can verify it’s history. Look for ones that were used by detectives or administrators as they will (generally speaking) just be used cars, not used and abused ex- cop cars.
Google cop cars for sale and your state. There is a huge secondary market for clean CVPIs.
I really do not understand panther love. I rented one once for the commute to stamford, ct from cherry hill nj, about 3 hours, prob 2001. Sure it was pillowy – gotta love the hospital bed electric front seats. But that was about it. Huge, ponderous, steering response was a mere suggestion – and i had to practically get of the bed – er – front seat to change the channel on the radio in the dashboard, which arrived in stamford some 15 minures before i did. The rental agency called it a “premium car” and charged plenty for it. I still dont understand that.
Incidentally, there is an agency here that brokers used police cars mostly for the taxi trade. I have to admit that they look cool, especially in that gunmetal grey color. I would buy one of those for only one reason – to keep all the assholes off my tail and generally far away from me. I do have to agree tho, the cop cars are strippers. And the back doors don’t open from the inside. I beleive that thy also have improved heating/cooling systems, and better starters. None of which is impostant to an average user.
Every CVPI I’ve ever been assigned had rear door that opened from the inside. They just have childproof locks like any other four door car. If you activate the child locks, the rear door handles don’t work from the inside. Deactivate them and the rear doors open just like any other car from the inside.
So, the consensus concerning used Panthers seems to be to stick to MY 2003 and later, and maybe a MY 2004 or later if one is looking for more horsepower. A few more questions for you-all:
1) Generally speaking, what equipment is different on a Police Interceptor versus a civilian Crown Vic?
2) Are there any significant mechanical differences between the civilian Crown Vic and the Grand Marquis, or are we really talking about the same beast with a slightly different suit on?
This post does a very good job of summing up the difference between the plain-jane and CVPI versions.
http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1363147&fpart=2
With that being said, it depends on what you’re willing to do yourself. Most folks will be far better off with a civilian sport model which offers an upgraded suspension system, about 50 lbs. more torque, and a bit less maintenance and weight (and abuse) than most CVPI models.
You can also lights and all the trimmings if you must have a CVPI version… but that’s a topic for another poster. The LX Sport will be a good road trip car. The CVPI is better for ‘presence’ amongst your friends and associates.
A “Sport” Crown Brick has to be the biggest oxymoron in all of Autodom.
I truly don’t get it. Hertz “upgrades” me to these God-awful mastodons (in Grand Marquis trim) on occasion and they are just laughable. They don’t go, stop, or steer. They get AWFUL gas mileage. They are not particularly quiet. They have no room inside – for the size of the thing the back seat is a joke. They have minimal equipment. Sure, they seem to last a long time and you can jump curbs in them, but a recent Camry is better transportation in every possible way. And will probably last even longer.
And if the new ones are so much better than the old ones, I sure never want to have to drive one of the old ones!
At least if you buy one that looks like a cop car you can probably drive like a cop and never get a ticket. You could drive 90 all day around here if you had a dark gray or maroon CVPI with tinted windows. They don’t even have antennas on them anymore to give them away. Be sure to drive only in the left lane, tailgate, and NEVER ever use your turn signals.
In the last post, we found our hero much maligned by TTAC’s readers who assumed him a trust fund kid with no appreciation for hardwork or the value of money. Now, our hero has further explained his circumstances, despite the obvious fact that we are not entitled to an explanation. Now, presumably in response to our hero’s explanation, Sajeev has asked TTAC’s readers and commenters to “grow up.”
Yet, “TTAC’s writers are guilty of baiting the conversation.”
Steve: enjoy your silver spoon.
Sajeev: this car is still the best for a young guy with more money than sense.
CJinSD wrote:
I’m confused by Sajeev’s response. Are you saying he should buy a q-porte even though it will prepare him for a lifetime of happy Toyota ownership? . . .
Sajeev replied:
The only way this youngblood’s gonna learn about the burn is if he actually touches the stove.
As for me, I find it sad that TTAC found it necessary to make the post about Ethan’s money from the get go. As other have suggested above, it guided the commentary away from his purchasing decisions and toward his character, which is regrettable.
I find it sad that TTAC found it necessary to make the post about Ethan’s money from the get go. As other have suggested above, it guided the commentary away from his purchasing decisions and toward his character, which is regrettable.
Good point, one comment: I rarely edit an email/letter from a reader, aside from grammar. Its not a lazy thing: when i came up with the Q&A format with Farago, that’s what we wanted. Unfiltered queries are respectful to the person taking the time to email me.
Plus this makes for a damn good read, if I do say so myself. So if someone wants to talk about their personal situation to explain why than afford a Maserati, it stays. Frankly, it is impossible to take the money aspect out of Ethan’s post…and what he wrote deserved to be published.
I’m curious to see if that resonates with anyone, and if anyone thinks I could/should do otherwise.
Sajeev, I think you do a fine editing job. It is the civilized discourse that attracts me to this site. It IS a damn good read. Change nothing.
Look at these pictures and tell me you don’t want a “Box” style Panther over the newer stuff.
Handling is for BMWs anyway.
Nice. But that MGM coupe is not for sale. And the one saving grace of the 1998-2003 models is that their modernized steering and (aluminum) suspension bits transfer to the “Boxes.” If I cared to do that. Which I don’t know if I do…
I’m not convinced he wants a panther. Maybe just asking the question was a way to repay TTAC for his troll like first letter. He seems to know how to press this audience’s buttons.
PS- I am quite serious when I ask, can someone say if 2003+ were free of axle thumps and other chassis horrors I associate with worn out cabs? I would put this car on my list to check out if you all say so.
IMO, the vehicle fits his size demands and matches the character of his current fleet of cars. Kind of a no-brainer to give this query the attention of the B&B’s eyeballs.
2003+ were not free of axle tramp, they were just better…or worse, when you consider the improved “feel” from the bigger wheels and slightly tighter steering/suspension. Axle tramp on the Box models wasn’t really a concern, the 70-series whitewall tires with tons of sidewall give made that an (almost) non-issue. Ignorance is bliss, sometimes.
Why any one with a credit rating or cash would buy a POS like these is beyond me creaking groaning BOF build no steering zero handling basicly a 56 Customline built in 2006 These and their ilk are the reason American cars are a world wide joke sure cars like Camaros Mustangs etc have a following all over, but garbage like CVs nobody makes cars this bad not since the 60s.
Love the Panthers, but buying one right now doesn’t seem to make much sense for the writer of our letter, unless I am missing something.
With gas prices inching towards $4 a gallon, you’re talking about a car that, tops, gets 28 mpg on the highway, which admittedly isn’t bad for a huge V8 RWD sedan. But does he really need four doors, a V8, and in a vehicle the size of a boat?
If he has “a little bit of money” then why limit your budget to just $3500? A $3500 car is more likely than not going to have issues, some more serious than others, even if it is “mechanic maintained” (btw I’ve met more than a few lazy hacks that call themselves mechanics.)
The only Panther platform car I’d consider, right now, if I had the money, would be a Mercury Marauder. Sweet car and it stands out without being a “LOOK AT ME I’M HERE” car.
Crown Vic’s are cool cars, but I wouldn’t want to have to fill that gas tank these days. I think Ethan needs to take a step back and decide first what he NEEDS in a car, and then what he WANTS in a car, because we really seem to be all over the place here.