James writes:
My wife and I are considering replacing one of our cars. I drive a 2007 Honda Fit Sport (125k miles) and she drives a 2002 Subaru Forester (135k). We both have long commutes and I drive 30k per year and she drives over 20k per year.
Her Subaru is well cared for but aging. While is overall has been a pretty good vehicle, we’ve had to make the following, fairly typical, repairs over the last few months:
• New ball joint
• New CV joint.
• Timing Belt/Water pump/Thermostat/Camshaft and crankshaft seals.
• New tires/battery
Recently the CEL has come and gone, reporting that the catalytic converter is not operating optimally. This has been replaced once already in 2007. Thankfully, we’ve had no transmission or head gasket issues thus far with her Subaru.
My Honda has been an excellent vehicle and we’d likely hang onto that for another year or so. We’ve had our eyes on the new Forester, Suzuki Grand Vitara, and Chevy Equinox, but are also considering something used so potentially save a few dollars. I also have a friend who is a used dealer that has offered to grab us something from the auction for a reasonable price.
Both vehicles are paid off and we can theoretically pay cash for a new/used vehicle. We have one 2wd vehicle and would look for another 4×4 vehicle with adequate cargo space to assist with the mid-atlantic winters and children. She’s not all that picky (a well above average wife with a well below average desire for things automotive).
So my question: Fight or Flight…is it worth keeping the aging Subaru with hopefully minor future repairs or selling it and nabbing a newer vehicle that is comparable in size, perhaps safer and perhaps better equipped?
Sajeev answers:
It sounds like your Subie is well cared for, with owners who understand the pitfalls of this specific vintage. Odds are if you keep the coolant changed at regular intervals, use the correct oil (more of a problem with WRX-hoons) and generally keep an eye on things, I don’t see why this Subie can’t go well over 200,000 miles with regular upkeep. Did I just say that?
Yes indeed, so keep those “Sajeev/TTAC has an anti-Subaru agenda” comments to past Piston Slaps. If the owner or the vehicle’s condition were less advantageous, by all means, dump this complicated piece of quirky charm-tastic Japanese engineering for something more mainstream. Like maybe a Honda CR-V.
By all means, keep up the good fight. If the check engine light came on, have it tested at a local parts store and look up the code on NASIOC.com. And be proactive for the next few years, if for no other reason that your foresight creates a window of opportunity: I don’t much care for any of your “new car” alternatives, and there’s cooler stuff on the horizon. Fingers crossed on that last part.
Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry.
How bout a CPO Outback wagon? That would stay in the Subaru vein and give you what your looking for. (I know there are members of the B&B that can tell him what problems to look for in those models depending on the generation in question.)
The Subie sounds well maintained and just showing typical high mileage type repairs. I’d say keep it and save that money towards a vacation or something. Keep the Fit…loads of efficient giggles in that car, plus with your 30k annual mileage I’m sure rewards in good fuel economy are reaped.
If you do decide to get something newer I’d highly recommend the Equinox. The 2.4 engine feels far stronger than the engine ratings would suggest and has good interior room for your 2.5 kids and cargo. Avoid getting the 3.0 V6…it’s lethargic to put a word on it.
hi, perhaps you need a more technical answer free of Badge biase, and thats what I’ll at least try to give. Well both cars have some considerable mileage and are at a point where the design life of their components have been attained. This means that this is the period of their maintenance cycle where it is going to cost.
If your choice is the cheapest car to maintain, then you will need to take both cars to technical experts armed with an exhaustive list of the components e.g bushes, bearings e.t.c. Next, ask the expert to estimate the Time To Fail for each of those components.
Next, rearrange the list beginning with the most critical items-(the ones that may get you towed).
Rearrange the list again to group parts are installed in one assembly in the car in order to minimise labour costs.
Visit your spare part dealers to give you the price of each spare.
Total the spare costs and group them further according to the strength of your cashflow as well as introducing a time schedule.
Viola, your maintenance plans for both your cars are ready and you can now make an informed choice of which car is cheaper to keep.
Here’s a tip that may help you out with the check engine light, assuming that you have the cat converter effficiency code: Install a drilled-out 18mm spark plug non-fouler on your secondary O2 sensor (the one behind the converter). Works like a charm on lots of Hondas, and my friend did it on his Outback wagon a month ago and it has worked for him as well.
Dorman sells a couple different versions of the non-foulers (a short one and a long one), and you typically have to drill out the inside in order to fit the tip of the O2 sensor inside of it. Google “honda O2 sensor non-fouler” (without the quotes) and you can read a lot about it.
I agree with keeping the Subie – yes, you’ll spend a bit on maintenance, but hey, it’s a car. Shoot for 250K miles (should be no issue with lots of easy highway miles) and keep on driving!
I actually did this on my 1997 Altima when I replaced the exhaust manifold for a more freely flowing one without a cat in it. It works great and keeps the check engine light away despite my lack of a cat.
I did hit the front wheel bearing issue recently with my Outback H6 wagon (I’ll have to look up the cost, but it wasn’t expensive enough to be that memorable), but other than that, I haven’t seen anything unusual. In 101K miles I’ve gone through two sets of brakes and two sets of tires (due for both again in the mid-range future), and a few major maintenance intervals, but generally it just puts on miles and doesn’t complain. Best thing I did to keep costs down and hassles minimal was to find a good independent Subie mechanic–I haven’t found a local dealer I like. I drive it 28 miles to work each way on LA freeways, and have no anxiety about doing so.
NB, since I left it out: Mine is a 2003, bought new.
redmonjp – just to let you know, it’s illegal to space the secondary o2 sensor to prevent a CEL in most states. Someone inspecting the car (visually) would see that and send you packing. It depends on if they do visual inspections as well as OBD scans – worth looking into for the OP’s state.
50K miles a year?
You don’t need a new car. You need to find a new house or a new job.
*mumbles something about US car culture and the hopeless inevitability of suburban collapse*
50K at a 70 mph is almost a combined month spent in your car per year.
Exactly. Hardly can add anything to that.
however I would like to add that they do work. My friend has a catless “test pipe” (downpipe from the turbocharger) on his B6 A4 1.8TQ. With the 02 spacer (defouler, whatever) he has had no CEL codes since clearing them after the install. Doesn’t make it any less illegal.
“I don’t much care for any of your “new car” alternatives, and there’s cooler stuff on the horizon. Fingers crossed on that last part.”
Agree about the stuff on the market now, but what causes your optimism about the future.?
ummm, because technology continually improves over time?
A lot of vehicles are (or should be, due to age in the market) slated for a redesign, including the Escape, RAV4 and CR-V. By time this Subie clicks over 200k, we should be in for better times in CUV-territory.
The technology may be great, but the cars get uglier, bigger and heavier every year. What is going to change that trend.
It was impossible to see the Nissan Muranno and believe in progress anymore.
bigger and heavier every year.
That’s a feature, not a bug. Or do you just like flimsy, dangerous, loud, uncomfortable, small cars?
of course, everything was better in the good ole days. when bread used to cost a nickel. On another note, Dwyane Wade can’t hold a candle to Pistol Pete Marovich.
Sorry I could not resist.
@Jmo
Bigger and heavier is a feature?
Why are you here?
Bigger and heavier is a feature?
Why are you here?
Why? You like loud, dangerous and uncomfortable? Some of us prefer safe, quite and comfortable.
Ummm. Bigger and heavier every year. That’s how I like my women. It’s a feature.
“Or do you just like flimsy, dangerous, loud, uncomfortable, small cars?”
I own a 2002 Honda Accord. To me it is almost the platonic ideal of a D Segment car, and for my uses, it is just about the ideal size.
A couple of years ago, I also owned a 2003 Accord. It was bigger, heavier, and more closed in, as has been the general trend of automobiles over the last decade. For a variety of reasons I needed to sell one of them, so I sold the 2003.
I don’t think the 2002 is flimsy, dangerous, loud, or uncomfortable, but being bigger did not make the 2003 better. It was not as good.
I intend to keep the 2002 for a few more years, but I keep thinking about what I would replace it with. The 2011 is even bigger than the 2003, indeed it is now classed as large. I really don’t need a car that big. But, I don’t want a C segment car either. But, right now there is nothing out there that is attractive to me.
I drive a 2007 Honda Fit Sport (125k miles)
Wow – that just blows my mind – are you a courier?
The likely culprit for your CE light is the replacement converter you did in 2007. The replacement converters–unless it was done at the Subie dealer–are likely to be much lower quality. I replaced a converter on my old Blazer when it was about 8 years old and had never had the CE light on. For the next four years of it’s life till I recently sold it the CE light would come and go from time to time, with a “low efficiency threshold” code.
Speaking of Subaru and horizon, the 2012 Impreza looks rather interesting. Hang on till late summer, early fall. You may find your AWD answer then…
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/08/report-2012-subaru-impreza-could-debut-in-new-york/
Well, I have a hint for you… don’t buy the new Forester. As much as you will want to after driving one (lots better in many ways than your original body-style), mine has been hideously unreliable and has the most rattles of any car I have ever owned. Subaru dealers could not give less of a crap, and the Forester forums prove that it is not just my car. The bodies are pretty flex prone, and it causes the dash, windshield, sunroof, and hatchbacks to quiver almost constantly.
This letter is obviously fake. Everyone knows that Subarus are bullet-proof and will easily go 500k miles without so much as changing the oil.
Side question: why are you considering keeping the Fit only another year or so?
At least another year. I’ll take it as long as I can, fun car.
Are you all serious calling 135K high mileage? Crazy talk. I don’t care for the Forester at all, but at under 200K, she’s still fresh as a daisy. Really, with regular maintenance, 200K is nothing. I’m not an old codger by any standard (especially mine), and haven’t owned more than 5 or 6 cars in total, but I’ve only had one car terminally die on my before 200K miles, and that was largely my fault (botched timing belt job on a Nissan V6). And that was at 192K.
If you’re commuting 50K a year, you better be wringing every single mile out of those cars, or you are seriously taking it in the shorts.
If this was my situation here’s what I’d do:
– keep both the Forrester and the Fit until they die.
– when replacing the Forrester becomes necessary, buy a non-4WD vehicle. Since you’re high-mileage drivers, you would be better off with something mechanically simpler and which gets getter mileage. For the winter, any vehicle with four good snow tires will get the job done.
– commuting trashes vehicles; when replacing, buy second-hand, and cheap.
BTW, I’m in the “find a different job, or move” camp. I’ve commuted before, and swore I’d never do it again. You probably don’t want to uproot the kids right now, but when they’re older you might reconsider. If doable, it would be a major life improvement.
Most striking thing about this question is how on earth you can get a Honda Fit up to 125K miles in just four years. Assuming the OP works about 47 weeks a year, 5 days a week, that’s 127.65 miles a day average. Assuming also that at least some of the mileage is on the weekend and includes a couple of road trips a year that’s still probably 22K miles a year just driving to work, which means a round-trip commute of nearly 94 miles a day. The short answer here is: any money the OP might be saving on rent or living costs by living 47 miles from work is shot in the foot by buying a car every four years and spending upwards of $4,000 a year on gas.
Seriously: move closer to work or get a job closer to home, keep the cars, and spend less time driving. You’ll actually keep a similar amount of money every year, and you can pollute at a more reasonable level. Commuting is the most useless, unpleasant thing people do every day, so eliminating the stress means you’ll probably live longer. If you’ve got the money to spend on a new car now, spend less of it on a used car you find interesting and spend some of the time you’re no longer commuting working on the car you like.
Just because you can live 50 miles from work in America doesn’t mean you’d be sane to do so.
Aside from the aforementioned (obligatory) questions about the headgaskets in the Subaru 2.5, even if it ever came to that, you could have a reseal kit done for around a grand at a good independent mechanic, which it sounds like you have already. Other than that, it should be ready for another 100k miles easy.
Because of a few well known weak spots, the resale is poor. Even the dealer will lowball you if you don’t have proof that you had the head work done. That being said, your repairs are not excessive for the mileage. It makes economic sense to just keep it until it needs major dollars. NN is correct about many aftermarket converters. When they first failed, buying the premium cats would have been a wise move. At this point if you can stomach looking at the MIL, leave it and reset the code before your inspection. Just remember you have to drive the car a bit in order to reset enough parameters for the car to pass.
I’ll add that you seem to drive an awful lot. I drive 24K** in my commuter car and spend typically three hours a day commuting. I can’t imagine doing what you are doing, unless you drive in near-zero traffic conditions. If so, steady-state highway driving is really easy on the car. Stop and go is way different. It eats your car up.
**P-504, I used to live 5 miles from work, but we were bought out and shipped to the City. A job change and serious boost in pay made me stay in the City. I have had to come to terms with the devil, but at least the compensation is good. It makes weekends pretty precious though. At least my employer provides the car, gas, insurance, and parking. And the fringe on that is only $600!!
Financially a very different game if your employer is covering the vast majority of transportation costs, which as you say obviously changes the calculus a lot. I stand by my points about the time wasted and pollution produced by too many people driving silly distances. No commuter trains?
The car came with the promotion. I used to ride the train. I asked for a transit pass in lieu of the car but was told to take the car or buy my own train pass. The pass is $400 per month for train and subway, so the car it is. On the bright side, I had been paying the $400 before the promotion so my effective salary really went up!! But the time wasted, wow…
I guess like many Americans you can’t sell the house and are saddled with the commute. I’ve read it now takes 1.2 years to sell the average American home. You understand which way gas prices are going in the near term. I’d be inclined to hang onto both. The Fit though high mileage is still relatively young and thankfully hasn’t been driven much by the wife… so plenty left there. Do you find yourself dealer-captive with the Subaru? I’ve never had one. I suppose you could consider Hyundai (warranty) plus Edmunds has recently heaped praise on the late Elantra.
OP here: While I can appreciate the good natured push to move closer to work (and question of my sanity), it’s just not in the cards with home prices what they are. ;) Honestly though, we do like it out here, despite the commute (mostly highway), but that’s not the question really.
PS. The original cat was replaced by Subaru under warranty. This wasn’t an aftermarket job.
So the push is to keep ol’ bessie?
My advice to you would be very simple. Buy the best.
Get Mobil 1 EP with a similar filter and change it every 10k.
Instead of getting a flush, I would use a Mityvac and remove a few quarts of transmission fluid every year. Replace with a factory spec equivalent and drop the pan every other year and replace the filter with a Subaru filter (not the discount brands). As an aside to this always go to a full stop before shifting into drive. I vaguely recall reverse being the first gear many Forester’s lose at the auctions.
Buy the best tires for your car. Your tires can have as much of an effect on your vehicle’s durability and comfort as your driving style.
Keep up with the rest of the fluids, always. Do not miss one. If you are really militant on longevity you can also have the fuel filter replaced every 30k.
One other thing… replace your struts at 200k. New tires + new struts + the best fluids from day 1 = a car that will drive like new for over a decade. Ask me how I know.
Good luck!
Steven Lang:
+1. Geat advice. I would say if you REALLY wanted to be safe, change the Mobeil 1 EP every 7- 8K Miles max.
Great advice for the engine, but what about the other 5,000 moving parts that will all fail eventually?
Is the OP a handyman with a heated garage and regular time on his hands due to shift work, or is he an ER surgeon who works on call and doesn’t know a thing about cars?
This sort of knowable information about the OP is far more important to his decision than what anybody thinks of Subarus or Chevys or motor oil.
OP wishes he had a heated garage and regular time on his hands. If OP was an ER surgeon, he wouldn’t be worried about an 02 Subaru. :) OP’s spouse travels through rough neighborhoods to get to work where breakdowns aren’t an option.
No mass transit here.
From my experience with 2 Subarus, the CEL for code PO420 (the catalytic converter) means nothing. They threw the code every few months. I just turned it off with a code reader and kept driving. Both cars got the mileage the EPA said they’d get, passed emissions in Washington State (the code reader turning the CEL off came in handy a couple times), and had no symptoms one would associate with a failing/plugged cat.
As a 2002 Subaru owner, I would say get rid of the Forester before it starts developing a head-gasket leak – then you are stuck either with a costly repair (on a car that is not worth much) or a hit on selling the thing. My Subaru developed a head-gasket leak at 78,000 miles (despite meticulous servicing and synthetic oil from day one) due to faulty engine-design typical of Subaru’s of the era. The cost of repair is 60% of the resale price of the car.
New Subaru’s unfortunatlely do not appear to be as well-built as the older ones (head-gasket leaks non withstanding) – they appear to have undergone the cost-cutting trend of the industry rampant in the cheaper middle-class cars – cheaper plastics, seats, knobs, parts, etc. I personally have moved away from Subaru altogether, after being an ardent Subaru-fan for many years.
I must confess, I sent this email in around a month ago and since then we went ahead (just before tax time, per Steve’s advice)and found a killer deal on a used 2010 Suzuki GV Xsport 4×4 V6. After a few trips to the local auto parts store for code reads, we realized that although we could squeak out a few extra miles out of the Subaru until inspection time it was best to sell it. The upside is the newer vehicle has all the modern features we like, it doesn’t rattle, and still has over 80k left on the warranty. We also got a decent private sale value on the Subaru.
So in sum, we valued cost avoidance in one respect (potentially sinking thousands into a 9 yr old car) and bought some piece of mind.
brain fart…peace of.