The stakes might not be as high as they could be in the Large/Premium segment, but as Kissinger pointed out, things can get nasty because the stakes are so low. And sure enough, by hook or by crook (or fleet sales), we have a tight fight for the vestiges of America’s once-proud large-premium car segment. You won’t find Honda and Toyota dominating this automotive land of the lost, and no sign sign of those troublesome Korean upstarts either (for now). Hell, the Buick Lucerne only missed this chart by a measly 49 units. ‘
But while the Charger’s sales improve as new models hit the lots, America’s other main contenders, the Taurus and LaCrosse, are showing signs of weakness. This old-school segment could well turn into a Mopar playground in the short term, with revitalized 300 and Charger models battling for dominance. But unless they bust out of this segment, and start competing at Impala volume (which hit 18,063 last month, forcing an update to our midsizer chart), they’ll be kings of a small, aging playground.
Speaking of an aging playground, the Panther seems to be aging gracefully. No matter how much neglect Ford heaps on it’s the car that refuses to die!
“the car that refuses to die!”
Only on TTAC my friend.
But seriously, this must be sarcasm.
Sorry; I don’t share the Panther love found in such abundance here.
I didn’t know Charger was doing so well. I guess that’s why my Youtube review for the Chargers have over 10,000 views.
So lets be real. The Dodge Charger and The Crown Vic are both commerical buyer fleet queens. Police cruisers and livery service vehicles dujour. The Crown Vic is all fleet.
Really 1) is the Maxima, 2) is the LaCrosse (fleet heavy itself), 3) Regal, etc. etc.
Kind of surprised to see the Regal on the “large” car list.
It’s large AND premium. The Regal and TSX fall under the latter.
I don’t much care if they’re fleet cars. The car mfrs are in the business of selling cars, even if some/many of them go at lower margins.
Those fleet cars end up in the hands of real consumers someday, so they still end up occupying ‘real’ consumer market share.
When did the TSX become a large car – It’s the European Accord – which is smaller than the NA Accord which is a Mid size!
Where is the Taurus in your lineup?
actually the Maxima also has a large number of fleet sales. seen plenty of them through the rental car lines. have not seen any of the new chargers or 300s yet.
Chargers are often bought for police use.
dunno what the numbers are nationally, but here in Central Fl at least, the Impala reigns supreme as the cop car of choice (actually the fleet car of choice since its also the darling of our many rental car outlets). A handful of depts stuck with CVs, but the overwhelming majority of them went with Impalas. FHP are really the only ones you see with Chargers. Either way, I’d like to see these sales figures without the fleet numbers in there.
I’d love to know what the retail/fleet ratio is on the Taurus. I would think that the Crown Vic (which Ford must be doing a big build-out before halting production in order for the volume to be that high) hurts its fleet popularity…well that, and the fact that the Taurus is a tall, awkward car with a relatively small interior.
The Mopars are big time fleet queens, but I’d be willing to bet the added volume over 2010 is pure retail. A good sign.
The interior of the Taurus isn’t really small, it’s just filled with a lot of trim. If the center console wasn’t so large and tall, the car would feel a lot roomier. I actually like how you feel like you are cocooned in the driver’s seat, and there is plenty of headroom and legroom. Driver’s who want an airier more open feel in their large car though, will be a bit dissapointed.
The 2011 CV is only available in Taxi and Police versions and yes they are cranking them out like there’s no tomorrow because those buyers demanded it. Ford hadn’t intended to make any 2011 Panthers but the big purchasers cried and they gave in and agreed to crank out the fleet versions and even opened ordering for a very few retail GMs and TCs since they were going to run the line anyway but the bulk of the production is the livery and police versions of the TC and CV.
Yup, the local L-M dealer has got a few ’11 Grand Marquis and Town Cars on the lot. Not that I would want any of the horribly decontented and halfheartedly built post-Wixom Town Cars. So I guess I gotta make my ’05 TC last forever . . .
I hate that console on the Taurus. Its such a massive car, which is appealing to me. But it feels cramped. The high sills and cowl dont help either. My new accord feels so much more open,
I love it that someone came right out of the closet and said that the Taurus’ interior isn’t small, it is just full of ‘trim.’ Motor Trend actually conceded that the Taurus and Explorer are cramped, which I suppose is just a reflection of them both being full of trim. It is fortunate that trim doesn’t impede spaciousness.
CJ –
There is a difference between a big car that by its design limitations has a small passenger compartment (like the Crown Vic) and a big car that has a large passenger compartment, but less room for passengers due to interior design decisions.
You can call it cramped, cozy, snug, or whatever else you want, but that is due to a massive sweeping center console, big thick comfortable seats, a very high belt-line, and big thick doors with lots of molding. Did Ford go overboard for some people’s tastes? Sure. Do more people prefer the Tauruses cozy-safe big car interior over that of competitors with more open space like the Avalon? According to the chart, they sure do.
BTW – The new Explorer is in no way cramped or small, I have no clue what motortrend was on when they wrote that line, but that goes against every other review I’ve seen.
The Chicken Little Taurus is just this side of a niche player compared to the Accord and Camry that it used to compete with for best seller status. Both of which have open, roomy interiors with excellent visibility.
The whole center stack theme is getting out of control. In order to blend with the 8″ navigation screen and the air vents on each side of the screen, they’ve widen the center console to the point that its no longer practical.
Soon someone will think there needs to be a 10″ nav screen and after that a 12″ screen. Frankly, it’s bizarre how an entertainment/information system is given a space priority over people.
Last but not least, the integrating the control functions for the HVAC and other controls into the entertainment system is bound to be troublesome.
Has anyone ever heard of one of these integrated control units suddenly crashing, then rebooting and give a “systems maintenance” message while the driver is operating the car?
@Old&Slow: “Frankly, it’s bizarre how an entertainment/information system is given a space priority over people.”
I really think it’s a tacit admission that the cars will be occupied by one person at a time. Only on occasion will all of the seats be filled. Why bother with passenger space? It’s not like our parent’s mid 60’s Galaxies/Impalas/Polaras where we would stuff the all of the neighborhood kids in the car to go down to the ice cream stand. We do an awful lot of solo commuting. This is not a cheap shot at Ford or anyone else, I really think the designers are not that worried about space for people.
Ok I give up! Where did you hide the Impala numbers?
Is the Impala Large ,or Mid size?
Right. This is the problem. It’s big and old (so I saved it for this chart), but it’s selling at midsized volume, so it will have to be added to the midsized segment chart.
In the meantime, the Impala sold 18,063 in March, sold 15,594 in March of ’10 and has racked up 49,541 sales this year through March. In March it outsold the Malibu (by thousands) and Cruze (barely), nearly tied the Prius, and beat the Mustang and Camaro’s combined sales. Not bad for an ancient segment-gapper, but it’s not exactly the kind of car GM wants to stand up and trumpet.
It seems like the Impala should be here. It’s not my first choice for a ride, but it is a great value and a great family car, and it doesn’t seem mid-size.
I think you should have left the Impala here. It is a large car. If the Charger gets even more sales and starts beating some others midsize volume, would you move it there too?
Reality Check: The Impala is definitely an Avalon and Taurus competitor – not Camry and Fusion.
@ ED
I too believe the impala should be here and not in midsize. The impala is a large sedan so put it up against other large sedans.
If the Impala is to be included, so should the Accord.
In terms of interior size (excluding trunk), the Accord is larger than the Impala, the Taurus, the Maxima, the CC.
Guys, I haven’t made a single segment chart that didn’t draw some kind of criticism. Maybe we can ask the B&B for suggestions, but it does change every month. And there are many, many ways to compare car sales (size, price, volume).
There’s one reason the Impala isn’t on this chart: when you add an nearly-50k unit YTD seller to this chart, it forces a longer X-axis and results in a less-detailed chart. Period. The principle of remaining faithful to cross-shopping comparisons is less important to me than creating a useful chart.
@Ed: Maybe we could all agree on a common unit of measure to keep that from happening? Like grouping by EPA classification or some type of price level? I would vote for EPA classification, because it’s a standard and there’s no fuzziness around the edges of definition, i.e., you can have a car that could go up several price levels due to option packages.
Edward, here are my thoughts:
1) If a car sells far less than its competitors, it’s OK. You can’t add Nissan Titan to this segment, simply because its sales is dwarfed by F150. You can either drop the insignificant sellers altogether or use a log scale.
2) Merge midsize with large segment as there is no real division between the two. Is Maxima larger than Camry? Is Impala more premium than Accord? No and no.
3) Use brands as a division line. Lexus ES is to be compared to FWD Audi/Volvo and Camry is to be compared with Accord/Fusion, even though the ES is very close to the Camry.
Going by EPA estimates (based on interior space) would be a mistake since cars intended for a particular segment would then be listed elsewhere (i.e. – the Accord and Sonata not being listed with the Camry and instead, being listed with the Avalon; plus then Nissan would have four models in the mid-size segment going by EPA classification – the Versa, the Sentra, the Altima and Maxima).
Ed explained why he includes the “full-size” Impala in with the “mid-sizers” and as long as we keep that in mind, it’s fine.
Nonetheless, the TSX and CC don’t belong on this chart.
If there’s no room for them on the mid-size chart (or if their sales nos. are so low that they would mess up the chart) so be it; this “full-size” chart will eventually fill out when the Kia Cadenza and new Azera hit the dealerships.
I though car “size” or “class” was indicated by interior volume, not outside dimensions.
The new Charger R/T strikes me as something I would own. My current fun car is a Civic Si coupe (2008). With kids though a 4 door makes sense. I’ve been left on the side of the road too many times by the Fords of friends of mine to trust owning one. I priced one out VS a new Maxima, came to within a hundred bucks of each other ~ 38,900 CDN.
Previous Rides
1987 Chev Berretta 2.7L
1995 Dakota V6 3.9L
2005 Infiniti G35x
2008 Honda Civic Si coupe (current)
2008 Nissan Frontier King cab (current)
Of interest is the most expensive car, the G35x, had the least comfortable seats! Went like stink though! lol
What did Chrysler do so well with the Charger?
Judging from this video… alot.
Looks damn good.
Once the 300 hits dealers in actual numbers, I think it will do equally as well.
This is a bizarre way to group vehicles. How is the TSX on the same list which doesn’t include a single Lexus, Infiniti, Audi or Volvo and yet includes the Crown Vic?
I agree. The closest thing to a TSX would be a FWD A4 or some Volvo model.
Oh brother.
I’m shocked the Taurus is doing so well; I hardly see any on the road – fleet or no fleet.
Two things have hurt the VW CC:
1. 4-seater only (however often it may or may not be used, a fifth seat is certainly a handy thing to have)
2. The new Sonata (they are EVERYWHERE, by the way) looks too similar and is more attractively priced. Plus, as a Hyundai, it doesn’t have to deal with the “$$$$$$$ to fix” stigma.
It’s a shame, because the CC is such a nice car otherwise.
The CC can be had with 5 seats. At first, it was only a four seater. But that changed quickly.
Since VW America sent the B6 Passat away in favor of the bigger, brighter, breezier NMS Passat, it will be interesting to see how they will manage a smaller, more expensive CC within their lineup. The NMS Passat will evidently have cheapness as its major selling point, something the CC eschews. How this will all work out is a big question.
Of interest: the New Jetta was pretty much trashed by C/D in their latest comparo. VW US appears to be floundering.
GO TAURUS GO!!!
Oh wait…it’s sales are terrible. Good to see the proper Crown Vic kicking it’s ass.
Is the Regal large, or is it premium? I’ve been in a few of them, and they didn’t seem large or premium. As for the TSX, I suppose it should be grateful to find a classification where it ranks. They’re fantastic cars, but they aren’t large and they’re priced lower than most cars that have interiors which exhibit a tenth the quality.
Speaking of the Charger…when can we expect a cull & comprehensive review of the redesigned model? Very interested in the new Pentastar V6 evaluation separate from the Hemi. Would also like to hear your thoughts on the strong possibility of the V6 getting DI technology, & an 8 speed auto for the 2012 MY. Not sure at this stage why they are only offering the AWD model only on the V8 however? That’s just plain stupidity on the Boy’s & Girl’s at Dodge frankly…
Don’t knock the Charger, it’s gotten a lot of notice in my family. My wife wants to trade the Pontiac for one. It doesn’t help that her co worker has a Hemi Charger and talks about it frequently. Not bad for a woman in her 60’s…
I will chime in here too, about the Impala. It should be in this category, not the midsize. It isn’t marketed as a midsize car. And how did the Regal end up in this classification?
Ahhh…Impalas forever!
EDIT: If GM/Chevy were smart, make incremental improvements on the Impala, add “proper” tail lights and a nicer front end and produce them forever!
@ Zackman…….Here in Canada the imports have taken over in all the urban centers..Montreal,Ottawa Vancouver,etc.
However outside of the urban areas where you measure distances in hours. Impalas rule.
@ mikey: I guess that’s why I see so many of them in the Cincinnati area!
I was not knocking the Charger…I absolutely love the styling…I was simply commenting on why they are not offering the AWD model with the V6 engine for starters? By doing that, imo they have stumbled out of the gate launching the vehicle as opposed to hitting the ground running. In addition, the price of fuel where I am located in Canada (St. Thomas Ontario which is one of the cheapest in the entire country actually) is $1.30 a litre…which works out to being a little over $4.90 a U.S. gallon or $5.90 in our gallon so a Hemi (as nice as it would be) is just overkill.
Well if you drive the the average 12,000 miles a year (I am using all US units, miles and 3.78l gallons), the 25mpg R/T costs you 2352 $ at 4.90 a gallon. The V6 which only gets 26mpg costs 2261 $ in fuel. Are we willing to dismiss the Hemi for 91$ a year? Over a 7 year life of the car with inflation that’s $676.52. I reckon I could save that much over 7 years by consistently taking my empty soda and beer cans to the deposit depot.
@ webleyx…I seriously doubt those numbers reflect ‘real world’ driving…even with the Hemi’s ability to shut off it’s cylinders (again I am looking forward to a comprehensive review on both models on this site). That is why I mentioned earlier in this thread that I will wait for the 8 speed auto with direct injection technology for the V6. One has to also consider higher insurance premiums, larger tires (winter & all seasons in Canada) etc, etc etc on the Hemi equipped models…the gas prices were merely one small example.
Genesis sold 2,664 in March. Is it not on the chart because they don’t break out the coupe #s?
Waaaaaaaait a minute…
Where is ES / GS, TL, G and or M, C/E class, 3/5 series and or A4/6?!