In the comments section of Monday’s Honda Civic review, there was something of a rush to declare a new order in the hotly-contested Compact segment, with Honda notably losing out. Well, TTAC and its Best and Brightest tend to be a little ahead of their time, and the sales numbers for April prove that the Civic still attracts US car buyers in segment-leading numbers. But the monthly sales win was probably something of a bittersweet victory, as Honda dealers hunker down for what is likely to be months of tsunami-related supply interruptions. Meanwhile, the battle is getting feisty, with Hyundai and Chevy doing most of the disruption. Year-to-date, however, the Civic and Corolla are still maintaining their decades-long grasp on the compact segment. But then, the battle is only just beginning…
The victory may be a little bittersweet for Chevy, as all the 2011 Cruzes (about 129k in the US) have been recalled for what The NYT calls
“a steering problem as well as a condition in which an automatic transmission that appears to be in Park may still be in gear, increasing the chance of a roll-away accident.”
GM calls the steering issue a “a one-shot, a one-vehicle issue” (customer turned with no response), and only 100k Cruzes have autoboxes (interesting that we just learned the build ratio, no?) but after the steering wheel incident, they’re checking all of them just in case.
Poor form really. The Cruze shoots up the sales charts and the first comment is by the author saying this is a bitter sweet victory because of a recall. When people talk about TTAC having a anti-GM or anti-US auto manufacture bias, this is why they say things like that.
+1 – thanks for making my point (as expressed further down) so much more eloquently than me.
Mother of mercy Steven, would you give the bias hobbyhorse a rest? If you want to argue that the Cruze recall won’t affect sales, make that argument. Otherwise, keep the bellyaching to yourself. The reason people say TTAC is biased is because we happen to publicize inconvenient information about the brand/manufacturer that they happen to be hell-bent on defending/hyping… and they have no other response.
Look, everyone in GM’s communications department has my contact info. If they think TTAC is being unfair to them, they’ll let me know… and if they have a legitimate point, I’ll let you all know. Until then, the bias bitching is nothing more than a lazy non-argument.
EN,
I think you missed my point. I do think that recalls can hurt sales, I didn’t say otherwise. And I am not talking about inconvenient facts about an automaker. There is nothing wrong with publicizing recalls. I do think that when TTAC says they aren’t going to announce every recall and then includes it in the comments section it is odd. But there are better examples of bias behavior.
Kia and Hyundai. I don’t see the differentiation in their platform mates and especially the pricing side it. I see Hyundais as nicer than Kias, but the pricing is so close together, it should be a real head scratcher. I am also concerned that one of the differentiators, being the Genesis platform is going to be used in a Kia. I wonder if it is going to be 32,500 to compete with the Genesis @ 33k.
Now, I understand they are 2 different companies with complicated agreements that essentially makes them so close that their products are very similar. But, I am surprised that the last article about the new car didn’t mention differentiating problems. In your comments, you say that they are differentiated. My question is how. It seems like they are getting a free pass on product when they shouldn’t be.
I have seen many comments on here about other manufactures sharing platforms and it being taboo. Not enough differentiation on pricing and features available. How is Hyundai and Kia any different here? Honestly, I think Hyundai is trying to move more upscale with its Genesis and Equus, and the results may not have been seen yet. But, when Kia gets the same platform for a car that the brand probably doesn’t need and is a very small market, I am not sure why there isn’t more criticism in the article.
Steven: I may have missed your point, but you’ve proven mine: bias is an endlessly moving target.
So now we’re talking about a lack of criticism of Hyundai-Kia’s non-differentiation. Fine. Tell me, who should I have criticized? Hyundai, for owning less than a majority stake in Kia? Kia for not developing more unique products?
The Hyundai-Kia situation is fundamentally different than any of Detroit’s past brand issues (unless you go back far enough… historians?) because there is no single parent company managing a brand portfolio. These two firms are technically in competition with each other. Criticizing their lack of coordination would be like criticizing Ford and Mazda (up until they split completely) for not dividing up segments and avoiding competition with each other.
Is the Hyundai-Kia relationship fundamentally flawed? I don’t see anything in their performances that suggest so. In the US they’ll both reach capacity constraints before they really start cannibalizing each other (remember, they don’t share dealers). And they solved potential cannibalism issues in Korea by expanding to export markets. The combination of conservative production investments and aggressive new market strategies will keep Hyundai and Kia from turning on each other for decades.
EN – nicely put. Analogies have to be relevant and accurate to be useful. Toyota would have been the better analogy here, as the Camry has had its spat of recalls and it has hurt sales (slower growth than they may have realized).
EN,
We are going to have to disagree on Hyundai and Kia. To me, there product is too similar. I understand they are two different companies, but you are pretty close to buying the same product from either one for the same price. Hyundai seems to sell much better, at least in the states, but for Kia to improve its sales, it will start eating into customers that Hyundai has. If this car is priced anywhere close to the Hyundai Genesis, it will absolutely be cannibalizing sales here. That large car base of 30k market is pretty small. It might come to be that their agreements will hurt them in the long run because of cars like this.
But, if you disagree with me on that, it is ok. They haven’t announced pricing although I hear it will be close to the Genesis.
But, there are other examples of bias.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/12/the-chevy-volt-is-made-out-of-contaminated-garbage/
Only the title needs to be read.
@EN: “and only 100k Cruzes have autoboxes (interesting that we just learned the build ratio, no?)”
Interesting, but only to the extent that I thought the ratio of automatic transmissions would have been much higher. Of approx. 130K cars, I would have imagined something like 120-125K of them being autoboxes. Quick math here, but 20% of the cars have a manual? In the US? That seems high to me.
My thoughts exactly.
Is the XFE model manual only? I know it was with the Cobalt, and the mileage fetish might be distorting the ratio a little.
No more XFE… it’s “Cruze Eco” now. It comes in manual and autobox, but only the manual gets the headline-generating 42 MPG.
@psar: No, the Cruze Eco comes in both 6 speed manual and 6 speed automatics. The manual gets the 42 MPG EPA sticker, the autobox gets 38 or so.
I haven’t looked in the last couple of weeks, but I haven’t seen ANY manual Cruzes of any model on my local dealer’s lot.
EDIT: Ed beat me to the punch.
@Steven02
“Kia and Hyundai. I don’t see the differentiation in their platform mates and especially the pricing side it. I see Hyundais as nicer than Kias, but the pricing is so close together, it should be a real head scratcher. I am also concerned that one of the differentiators, being the Genesis platform is going to be used in a Kia. I wonder if it is going to be 32,500 to compete with the Genesis @ 33k.”
– The relationship btwn Kia and Hyundai is more akin to that of Ford and Mazda (esp. when Ford owned something like 34% of Mazda) or Nissan and Renault in Europe – sharing platforms and powertrains but very little else.
Otoh, the various GM brands and even Ford and Lincoln today not only share/shared platforms and powertrains, but some sheetmetal and many interior bits.
As for the RWD Kia K9, it’ll slot in price btwn the Genesis and Equus sedans.
Now, I do agree that the dig on the Cruze for the recall is a bit uncalled for since pretty much all of the recent, successful launches have had a recall or two.
Heck, the previous generation Honda Odyssey which was a huge sales success for Honda and kept up their reputation for quality/reliability had FIVE recalls for its 1st year production, including for an INCORRECTLY assembled STEERING column which “could result in the loss of steering control.”
1 month is too soon for information to trickle out into the national consciousness. Especially as the car buying cycle is more like 4 years instead of 1 month.
I think it’ll be interesting to see the follow-up 3 months from now (end of summer) and a year from then (a full summer afterward). That’ll be about 8% – 10% purchase / market penetration rate, rising to 50% purchase rate, respectively.
Civic and Corolla scarcity are going to push prices up, supply down, and get people to look at Cruze, Elantra & Focus (not necessarily in that order). This summer is a big opportunity for Ford, GM & Hyundai to shake up the Camcord / Civicorolla hegemony that Toyota & Honda have long enjoyed.
If they do well over the next few months, word of mouth will carry into the next buying season like we’ve seen with Subaru & HKia over the past few years.
Honda & Toyota should be very afraid selling mediocre product that can’t simply coast on brand history against actual competition.
Has the scarcity started yet? I was not sure if it had or had not.
Not yet since the earthquake was only a few weeks ago and current inventory and shipped product covers them until maybe June.
Scarcity takes time to develop, but it’s real. The OEMs are trying to mask it as best they can, but as we move into the higher volume months, come end of summer, we’ll see it.
I believe this will be an interesting summer and fall to observe from a sales point of view. The domestics could make inroads, particularly if the cars hold up well. Ford has a lot of positive regard, that may help them a lot. Hyundai-Kia also has a lot of positive regard going for them, too. I think only the hard-core Toyota Honda buyers will put up with any inconvenience from any shortages, the folks who HAVE to buy something soon will be looking elsewhere.
Nissan stated that while they are putting the wraps on their annual May tent sale, that it’s not b/c of supply issues (enough supply at the moment).
Ed – sorry to be pedantic but “Civic still attracts US car buyers in segment-leading numbers” is incorrect. The Civic didn`t lead the segment either in April or for the first four months.
If anyone had said to you (or me) a year ago that the Cruze (or any other domestic) would beat BOTH the Civic and Corolla you would have laughed and dismissed them. There is no earthquake reason for this, that reason will be rolled out later in the year.
You just can’t seem to help yourself in your bias, first with the incorrect comments and then having to be the first commentor on here mentioning a recall as if Honda and Toyota don`t have recall issues!
The true test will be over the next few years as SVX mentions – Honda and Toyota used to be unassaible in car sales (and lost out on trucks and SUV’s). Now they are behind in the subcompact market, about even in the compact market and still leading, but by much less in the midsize market. Not exactly a position of strength. Having made no impact on SUV’s or Trucks.
I don’t have a problem with pedantry, but you might want to check your numbers again. Civic sold 26,777 last month and is second place YTD as of the end of April. Oh, and it outsold the segment last month too. Do you have numbers that tell a different story? Because you should bust those out before that little “bias” comment makes you look very foolish.
Ed – I apologies, you are quite right about the April numbers, although not for the first four months.
My larger point still stands – it would be good if you could actually acknowledge that GM is doing better than you thought just a year or two ago. They have weaknesses and make mistakes – but then all car companies can be found wanting in some area. So I don`t think it is foolish to point out (which you did not refute) that you have a pronounced bias against GM (as seen by the latest article about truck sales – any news on when Toyota will hit their 200,000 target for the Tundra!)
Sorry Mike, keep trying:
April: Civic: 26,777, next closest was Cruze with 25,160
March: Civic: 31,213, next closes was Corolla with 30,234
February: Corolla: 25,860, next closest was Civic with 19,121
January: Corolla: 20,581, next closest was Civic with 14,634
Are the stars aligning for changes in this segment? Sure. Has it happened yet? Not yet. Civic and Corolla still rule for the moment.
Next time I see you type the word “bias” in a comment at TTAC, I want some evidence… or I’m going to start deleting. I shouldn’t have to defend this site’s commitment to the truth from people who don’t even care to check the (publicly available) facts first. Why should I keep taking time off from generating content to answer accusations that have no basis in reality? Very frustrating…
A few of the autosites (like Edmunds) stated that Corolla sales were up in Jan/Feb b/c Toyota was selling more to fleet than usual.
EN,
don’t you worry, once people see the abominable 9th gen Civic, pedantry will not be an issue. Like, zero is zero and that’s that.
I am not sure if mike978 is looking at the same chart that I am looking at.
But anyway, I am surprised that the Focus is not doing better. Is Ford still ramping up production?
I’d hope so. It appears to be a better car than the Cruze, which is nice in its own right. I’m guessing April for the Focus was a mix of the last remaining 2011s and the first 2012s. As production ramps up I think the figures will improve substantially – going by the Chevy, I’d say to Civic and Corolla levels. This isn’t without precedent, either; Fiesta sales were nothing to write home about for a while, but last month it was the best-selling subcompact (mostly because the Versa had an off month but even so 9k units is nothing to sneeze at in the B-segment).
Focus supply was definitely an issue in April. We helped Ford in April by purchasing a 2011 Focus S. A $2000 rebate on a cheap low end car is a strong incentive, plus an old Ford credit card rebate added another $1100 off. At that discount buying used made no sense, the interest rate was only 2.99% for a 60 months. It’s not the latest, greatest, but it a pleasant to drive econobox that shows how even basic cars are pretty well optioned (AC, pwr locks, CD/MP3 player, ABS, 6 airbags, etc.) With its small size and a 5sp it makes for a reasonably fun driving experience. The 2012 Focus looked great but there weren’t many and we were basically bottom feeding the new car market.
This segment is going to be increasingly more prominent as gas prices rise, and are expected to stay at the higher levels. The interesting thing will be to see how the parts shortage is going to affect this segment in the coming months. One other thing: the Elantra would have sold more if they had more of them to sell.
My local Ford dealer has 13 2012 Foci and zero 2011 Foci. The next closest Ford dealer has 17 2012s and 3 2011s. 2012s range from under $17K to $28,630. The leftover 2011s are priced at about $19K and list ‘European Inspired’ as a feature.
Only a couple (literally 2 of about 5) of my local Ford dealers even have a 2012 Focus according to their online inventory checker. The ones that do have one or two. They all seem to have a good quantity of 2011s left. The 2012s just aren’t out and about en masse yet.
Why is the Kizashi on this list? I thought it was generally considered a D-segment vehicle despite being slightly smaller than typical for that class.
“But then, the battle is only just beginning…”
You mean the segment leaders have only begun to feel the weight of defeat that was dumped on them by forces beyond their control?
My local (central Indiana) newspaper has been full of ads trumpeting the Cruze for $179/mo (and Malibu for $199/mo) for months. I found it odd that the new Cruze has been getting the cheap-car promo almost from the get-go. But at this price, it is hard to miss why the car is selling so well.
This will be an interesting race once Honda and Ford get inventories up to normal levels. If gas stays high, there should be lots of business to go around in this segment. I am not sure that it is such a great idea to give the Cruze away like this. The Chevy and Ford guys seem to be following two completely different strategies.
Also, I cannot decide which is bigger news: that the VW Golf can’t beat anyone but Suzuki and Mitsubishi, or that the Dodge Caliber outsells the Golf.
To be fair you need to combine Golf and Jetta sales – hatchback and sedan (just as the Focus is both bodystyle, but one name). Then you get to something like 16K units.
$179 / mos & $199 / mos are marketing to get you in the door.
Read the fine print: 1 available at this price, VIN # whatever.
Jack Baruth’s got a great article on TTAC about this kind of thing.
This battle is an interesting one, however, I wouldn’t write down the Civic or Corolla yet. Driving a Cruze, Elantra, or Focus back to back will undoubtedly expose them as the better cars vs. a Civic or Corolla, however, long term durability is not proven. People buy Toyotas and Hondas because they know they’ll get 150k, maybe 200k out of the car with minimal problems. Despite certain deviations, this is still pretty much a rule of thumb. Chevy and Ford have terrible new-launch records. Last time Ford launched the Euro-focus (~2000) it was a mess, and this generation has some really high-end technology. The Fusion is reliable, but it’s underlying technology (save the Hybrid) is old, and they’ve been building essentially the same car for many years–so you can’t use it as an example of an entire revamped Ford. This to me is the key with GM and Ford…you can get a reliable car, but often not until after they’ve been making it for 3-4 years. Additionally, you hear Hyundai winning all these awards for their quality…yet I’ve never to this day seen a single Hyundai with over 150k on it. Long-term durability is still the reign of Toyonda.
In the end, Ford and GM may squander an incredible opportunity here by delivering yet another round of sub-par reliability products that are, in all other facets, better than competitors. The Cruze has already been plagued with recalls, weird tranny issues, steering wheels falling off, leaky trunks. The Focus hasn’t been out long enough to expose whether or not it will be effected by the same issues. But I feel both would capitalize off of the subpar Toyonda products and supply constraints now if they had introduced their cars 1-2 years earlier and had therefore worked out the inevitable launch bugs.
Completely agree that long term durability needs to be proven and that it will take another 10 years before people’s view of GM and Ford gets on a par with Honda and Toyota. It took them years to destroy their reputation and it will take years to recover fully.
However Ford has had a reasonable experience with new launches – Edge and Fusion both rolled out OK. Focus 11 years ago may not be accurate anymore.
NN,
You don’t seem to recall the problems that Toyota and Honda have had when it launches new models. If you want to talk about recalls, you can easily look to Toyota as the king there, and I am not just talking about the SUA mess. Before that Toyota was having large amounts of recalls. Both companies have similar issues when launching vehicles.
You mention the story of 1 steering wheel falling off, which was one incorrectly installed, found by an inspector, then another one incorrectly installed. That was really bad on the assembly side, but let’s be serious. It was 1. Also, there has been one leaking trunk reported that I have seen. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
The shine is off Toyota already – people are now evaluating Toyota critically, and witness that their DSR went down year-over-year in April.
The only guys still with good reps to trade on are mass-market Honda & niche AWD Subaru. Subaru was at capacity going into 3/11, and has been hammered hard since then. Honda is also affected by 3/11.
“yet I’ve never to this day seen a single Hyundai with over 150k on it”
– Sheeze, this has been DEBUNKED so many times (also, the reason why there aren’t nearly as many Hyundais with over 150K miles is b/c Hyundai sales 10-15 years ago were a FRACTION of what Toyota and Honda were selling).
And I wouldn’t be so smug about the issues that have befallen the Cruze, etc.
The previous gen Honda Odyssey had FIVE recalls for its 1st model year, including one for an improperly assembled steering column and we all know how well Honda did the last time they introduced a new transmission.
Same goes for Toyota which has had to settle a no. of class action suits (such as the one for engine sludge).
My sister put 160+k on her (universally, and rightly) reviled Excel. My 2002 Elantra has 139k and shows now sign of the race between rust and breakdown ending in less then 11k miles.
Please don’t count on anecdotes when talking statistics.
The real proof for quality issues is not that you don’t have any, rather that any you have are quickly dealt with. Our ’11 Fiesta has had some of the inevitable new model teething issues and so far Ford has done a good job of not inconveniencing us while fixing all of them.
The new Focus is definitely not available in dealer inventories in anywhere near the quantities it will be once Ford has filled the pipeline so for that reason alone last month’s sales figures were skewed by lack of availability.
Pricewise I’m seeing Cruze, Focus (2012) & Elantra being offered at $179-199 on 36 month leases.
Owing to tsunami related limited availability and public acceptance of both the Cruze & Focus in several months both I think will top the monthly sales in this segment. The limited availability issue I think only speeds up what was going to happen in the near term future anyway, that being the Focus & Cruze will be the top sellers. Hyundai doesn’t have the capacity, dealer network or overall brand acceptance that Ford & GM do to challenge either for higher volume.
While some buyers will remain loyal to Toyota & Honda I think many will comparison shop and the result will bode very well for Hyundai, Ford & GM as all three now have class leading entries in this segment, something that’s never happened before.
Is Hyundai planning on adding more capacity in the US – seems like they could sell more Elantras and Sonatas. I am sure the Accent will do well too.
IIRC, Kia was going to hire on some more people at West Point and shuffle some product around to open up space for more Sonatas at Montgomery. That might have to wait for the suppliers to sort out any tornado-related issues, though.
I’m sure Hyundai will increase their capacity to meet demand but they don’t have enough right now to challenge Ford or GM in the compact segment. Even if they did have that capacity right now they still don’t have anywhere near the dealer network or brand acceptance that Ford & GM do. No doubt at some future point they will but Hyundai is not playing on a level field with GM & Ford at the present. In terms of brand acceptance think about all of the Ford & GM buyers that already exist plus conquest sales. For Hyundai you’re pretty much just talking conquest sales. I don’t know the exact numbers but my guess is at best Hyundai has about 30% of the number of dealers either Ford or Chevrolet do.
Kia is hiring additional workers in preparation for the start of US assembly of the Optima (right now, Kia is rationing delivery of the Optima since supply is so tight – with Australia only getting 1K for the entire yeat and the European launch repeatedly getting delayed).
With the Santa Fe now being built at Kia’s plant, Kia probably won’t have the production capacity to meet demand for the Sorento and Optima.
If one extrapolates sales of the Sonata and Elantra (from the past 2 months) for the year, Hyundai would sell 440-450K Sonatas and Elantras, but their Alabama plant is going full steam and can only produce a little over 300K annually.
Presently, the new Elantra is the vehicle that is spending the least amount of time on dealer lots (6-7 days).
The Cruze not only outsold the Corolla, it also sells at an average transaction price of 3000$ more than the corolla and 2000$ more than the civic. GM has a hit on its hands. With looming supply issues at Toyota, if GM can get more people, who would never consider domestic to try the Cruze, this could become a trend!!
http://www.tribtoday.com/page/content.detail/id/555168/Cruising-to-the-top.html
Note: Corolla numbers include the Matrix. If GM includes HHR sales (6,222) to the Cruze, then they might actually outsell them consistently
Again the Cruze can thank the Volt for the additional sales generated this coming year resulting from GM shipping 2500 demo Volts to various dealers. It’s the Volt, not the Cruze, that is getting non-traditional buyers to step into the Chevrolet dealerships.
If they leave with a Cruze and are happy about it, do you think GM cares why they came in? Coming to look at the Volt and leaving with a Cruze kind of shows you how good a car the Cruze is.
I’m very pleased that the Cruze is selling well. When I compare the Cruze to the Focus, I see two cars aiming at different markets. To me, the Focus still says “boy racer”, while the Cruze looks more like a real car. Maybe it’s that slab-side appearance that offends me about the Focus all these years. While the Cruze doesn’t distinguish itself anymore than a Hyundai Sonata, it looks more “car-like” to me. If that makes no sense, well, I do like the Cube, so there! It all comes down to personal preference. Remember, I’m an Impala-guy after all, and proud of it!
(EDIT): Hey, what’s with the lack of italic, bold and other features missing from when one types comments? Been like that for over a week, now!
Hey, what’s with the lack of italic, bold and other features missing from when one types comments? Been like that for over a week, now!
We’ve pulled out the WYSIWYG editor in hopes of improving the iPhone/mobile commenting experience. Time to learn some basic code tags!
We’ve pulled out the WYSIWYG editor in hopes of improving the iPhone/mobile commenting experience
Wait? What!?
I’d pretty much given up TTAC’ing because posting on mobiles was such a chore.
(…runs off to test….)
Well, it works. It zooms in useless close on an iPhone (which is an improvement over zooming in and disallowing typing). It works on a BlackBerry.
If WordPress could work with Tapatalk I’d be happy. And hugely unproductive.
See, our customer service reps may be a bit surly and inattentive, but TTAC listens to your feedback.
Did I say I doubted you? Did I? I never doubted you, not for a second!
Next step will be stopping it from smut-hammering posts that contain the Latin word for because. It took me a while to figure out that was why I was getting whacked.
Sounds like a good plan, but clumsy to try to remember all the tags!
It has nothing against the Latin word for “because”
Quod erat demonstrandum.
@Bertel: Ok, so perhaps when is a better translation.
Forgive me, I’m young enough to have been born after the time when nuns would beat it into you.
Why is the Kizashi on this chart? I didn’t think it was considered compact.
I think this chart shows how badly the new Corolla is needed. From what I have read about the new Civic, it seems that it could see a sales decline as well. It will be hard to tell how badly these models are effected by the tsunami as well and how much is product that is not up to the Cruze/Elantra/Focus standards.
Speaking of which, I am surprised that the Focus is that low on the chart. The exterior might be the reason. It seems to be a love it or hate it exterior.
Why is the Kizashi on this chart? I didn’t think it was considered compact.
If the new Jetta is a compact, so is Kizashi.
The Kizashi has less useful people room, especially in the back, then certain compacts.
Mind you, by that metric, the Nissan Versa should be a D-Segment car.
Just looked up the size numbers on the Kizashi (interior volume). Much smaller than I was expecting. When I see the car in person, it appears to be bigger, at least on the outside, than it is on the inside. Not a good combination.
Some observations:
– Wow, I didn’t realize just how well Hyundai and Chevy were doing!
– Where are the Scions? I sure haven’t seen too many new ones.
– I assume that Focus sales will pick up even more, as production wasn’t fully ramped up yet, right?
– I don’t think I’ve ever seen an ad for the VW Golf. That’s a shame – it’s actually a better deal than a similarly equipped Jetta and is surprisingly reliable. Made in Germany, too!
– Speaking of Jettas, Suzuki has been advertising the Kizashi quite a bit, but I guess it hasn’t worked that well. Their dealer network must still be too small.
“If they leave with a Cruze and are happy about it, do you think GM cares why they came in? Coming to look at the Volt and leaving with a Cruze kind of shows you how good a car the Cruze is.”
Hell no they don’t care. That’s the whole point of the demo Volts. And sure nothing wrong w/Cruze, looks like a nice enough car to me.
Ed – thanks for responding to my comment and for on the whole generating (along with the other editors) good content. Just to be sure I understand you are you saying you display no b*** at all in your choice of phrasing or comments? It is funny how quite a few people think you do. Steven in replying to your first comment was fair and you must admit it is unusual for the author to add the first comment to a recently penned article.
As long as you are fair with equally showing the foibles of all companies (and they all have them) then no complaint from me.
I apologize again for getting the number wrong in my first comment – just blown away from Cruze beating Corolla, not something I thought would happen.
The Cruze didn’t just beat the beat the corolla, it beat the corolla + Martix. If GM included HHR sales to the Cruze’s mix, then they would beat them every month.
alluster83 brings up an interesting point. With HHR and Cruze combined, Chevy got 31,382 units last month. This would be the apples-to-apples comparison with Corolla/Matrix (which Toyota doesn’t break out for some reason)… except that GM classifies the HHR as a truck for CAFE purposes. I suppose this doesn’t make a big difference as far as the market is concerned, but our segment data has HHR as part of the “SUV/Crossover Low” segment.
It’s not really apples to apples. The HHR is a completely different car than the Cruze, with more in common with the Cobalt. The Matrix shares a lot more Corolla DNA.
Re: Cruze and HHR: They’re closer than you think. The HHR is Delta I, and the Cruze is Delta II. The Delta platform was unveiled in the mid 2000’s with the Saturn Ion (and Chevy Cobalt), and has little to do with the previous J-body.
I didn’t realize it was a reskinned Cobalt. If only they’d have kept the Cobalt’s engines, the Cruze would make a non-punitive rental car. I guess the magazines were told the Cruze was all-Daewoo to try to keep the GM small car reputation from permeating it.
IIRC, the engineering for the Delta I was US, and the basic engineering of Delta II was Opel with localizations or changes by Daewoo. I remember reading something back in the mid-2000’s about how the Cobalt being the last American-engineered small car. I’d have to research that to be sure now…
I would also remind folks that back in the 80’s Toyota sold Corollas with FWD and RWD variations and the numbers were all under one nameplate. And for a while in the mid 90’s the Nissan Altima was the Nissan Sentra Altima.
Just to be sure I understand you are you saying you display no b*** at all in your choice of phrasing or comments?
No. I am saying, as I have been for years now, that accusations of bias don’t mean anything. Instead of saying “you has a bias” (a statement that serves only to illustrate your own perspective/”bias”), give some facts that illuminate real understanding.
I added a link to the Cruze recall because it is relevant to the story. Just as forthcoming supply interruptions are relevant to Honda’s bittersweet segment “win” this month. Crying bias proves you don’t like that one particular piece of context and not much else.
I apologize if my frustration is showing here… I’ve made this argument over and over again, and yet the same situations arise again and again. It’s getting to the point where I feel like taking the time to explain all this makes no difference, and everyone goes back to crying bias a few weeks later. If y’all don’t start doing more self-policing on this issue, I really might just start deleting more comments… which is something I’ve gone out of my way to avoid since taking over here.
@EN: As the old saw goes, “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire”.
You may think that you’re being fair, but the way that you manipulate data and present facts in a selective way tends to portray GM in a more negative light than your peers do, or your readers perceive them.
While you may not be conscious of your biases, or TTAC’s institutional Bi** Against GM, it’s still there, lurking beneath the surface.
Yes, TTAC was right that Old GM was a cesspool. Yes, New GM still inherits a lot of Old GM. That doesn’t mean New GM shouldn’t get credit where credit is due, without a backhanded slap by The B*a* Against GM at the same time.
The fact that many of your readers consistently identify TBAG as an issue, and it touches a nerve with you wanting to be TTAC means that you should think harder as to why they’re saying it and why it bothers you. Consider that they’re at least as “right” as you are.
As an example, I suggest you read more Karesh (New TTAC) or any of the True articles and compare against Farago (Old TBAG). I respect Karesh a *lot* more than the old guard with their axes to grind. Just let it go.
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Did you seriously filter the word “B-1-A-5”? Really?
OK SVX, since we’ve reached the point that you’re telling me to read through TTAC’s stories to see the change in perspective over time, this conversation is over. I’m the freaking Editor-in-Chief around here… and you think I haven’t noticed a shift in tone? You think that shift somehow happened against my anti-Detroit will? Puh-leeze. It’s bad enough that you cast aspersions on my motivations, but now you’re implying that I’m out of touch with the direction of my own site. Insult to injury, that is.
Again, I’m not saying people won’t perceive “bias” in my work. We all have our own perspectives. But if you’re going to try to undermine TTAC’s credibility by throwing around the “b word” without identifying a single legitimate issue, I’m going to delete your comments and ban you. It is long-standing TTAC policy to not allow debate about our editorial policies in the comments section, and I haven’t obtained a lick of insight by bending it. So guess what? Convo over.
If you’ve got beef shoot me an email and if I get enough complaints I may think about allowing a “flame TTAC” thread. But the reality is, that GM itself doesn’t have serious issues with our content here… all the complaints come from the same 4 or 5 fanboys for whom we can never be fawning enough. These people are NOT looking for objectivity. I’m not going to cater to that, and I’m done defending against these goofy allegations. My conscience is clear.
And no, I don’t filter for the “b-word,” but I’m sure tempted to start.
Where there is smoke there is fire? I’ve read a number of accusations that the UAW has people spending their time spreading propaganda on automotive blogs while pretending to just be opinionated forum members. It must be true.
One reason for the rise in Cruze sales is due to GM lifting the moratorium on fleet sales (previously limiting rental fleet sales to Avis).
Still, impressive nos. for the Cruze.
Don’t know what Toyota did with the Corolla with regard to fleet sales for April (considering the future supply issue), but earlier in the year, Toyota was selling quite a bit into fleet.
Thanks again for replying and explaining your position. In future if I think a comment is biased I will provide some “evidence” for said accusation. I have certainly learnt something from this exchange – please keep up the generally very good work and articles on this site.
An example of perceived (if not actual) bias was around the whole Detroit manufacturers being happy (or gloating) over the earthquake in Japan. That was from a Bertel article a few weeks ago.
A long time TTAC contributor posted some comments that really were shameful and almost hateful – they took a big step down in my respect for them in that thread.
As I eat my popcorn and watch the “b1@5” commentary – I see patterns emerge. A news article that states D3 is having an issue and similar people come on and are upset it was posted in the first place. The articles posted are not in fact “biased” but factual where above some are unable to defend their claims on fact but simply insert the 4 letter word as a way to bootstrap their argument. Then an article is posted on facts about the J3 having an issue and again another set of people come on the board to defend them. Such is life I guess on an automotive forum. I can’t readily admit I am not biased as we had a loss of family friend due to let’s say a 70’s subcompact rear end incident with a fiery result. I spent a long time in anger about that company – much unfairly after a while. Companies have changed over the years but facts are facts – words are words. Anyone remember the “perception” gap as the explanation of quality that everyone was biased but when you put a Cavalier up against its J3 counterparts and it was an embarrassment. I think its time we get off our high horses and admit what we support also has its own faults just as we ourselves do to.
This. Thank you.
Another reason (besides that they weren’t so good) that there aren’t a lot of old Hyundais with 150K miles on them is because buyers of $7000 cars don’t treat these cars the same as they would a more expensive vehicle. When a car is the cheapest one on the market, it’s perceived as a ‘disposable’ car and treated accordingly.
Sorry, this was to be posted under another comment and I messed up.