You come to a gala press event filled with beautiful sheetmetal and old friends. The lunch is catered and the folks hosting the event go completely out of their way to make you happy. So far so good!
They have a fair amount riding on their new billion dollar entry level car. Tens of thousands of people will earn their livelihood on a model that promises to be ‘economical, sporty, and fun’ for only ‘$15,995!’ (before destination charge, tax, tag, title fee, and other bogus charges laden in dealer inspired small print).
Right now that ‘real’ cost doesn’t matter to you. You came to write a review, give it a fair shake, and inform the two million monthly visitors at this site that seek honesty and truth above all else. You walk up to the car. Sit down with another writer. Turn the key. Drive off… and…
The car sucks. There is no other way of putting it. The suspension is fine. The interior is on par with what you would expect for the price range. But damn! The automatic on this car seems to suck 20% of the power and 90% of the fun out of the driving experience.
You resign yourself to the fact that this review will mention a lot of nice complements on the interior. The seats. The fuel economy. Maybe the exterior is pleasing and it comes with a few electronic doo-dad’s that young people need and older folks rarely touch. But it’s not a fun car. Not at all.
You know why? A fun entry level car with a slushbox hasn’t been made in nearly 20 years.
Every entry level car with a slushbox, from the Cavalier to a Yaris has been an absolute adrenalin depleting disaster. These are commuter scooters. Nothing more. Made to a price point and designed for the open traffic jam. They are appliances without a verve of nerve except when they come with a good five-speed.
Then it all fits. The tires have just enough grip. The handling is awesome. The five speed flows like butter as you begin openly exploring the limits of exhilaration and adhesion. Damn! It is ‘FUN’!’ Every stoplight has become an opportunity to celebrate a vehicle that truly outperforms all your expectations.
This is the perfect car for the enthusiast. Except for when those enthusiasts that read your work have to deal with the traffic jams, the parking lots, the long lines of cars at concerts and sporting events.
The reality of 2011 is that most open road driving is done in traffic. Sorry. Stickshifts become a relative pain when it comes to the creep and crawl of modern driving. That’s why automatics have a higher approval rating than presidents at the beginning of wars.
Is that convenience worth it to you?
Let’s zoom in on the ‘entry level’ car market in particular. When it comes to buying an entry level car, would you give into the lords of convenience and get an automatic? Or would you willingly suffer the slings and arrows of heavy knees and muscled calves by driving a stick?
With the poor luck I had on a 2006 Mazda 3 GT wagon, I’d sure be pulling that pin.
Damn, it appears we have a very parallel car story TEXN3. I had a 2005 Mazda 3 GT hatchback (stick) that was almost never without some sort of illness. Rust. Suspensions. Brakes. I’d be pulling the pin too.
I have thankfully been blessed to have the exact opposite experience with my 2005 Mazda3 5-door. The only problems I have had is the faulty motor mount (TSB out there for it) and an update to the tranny programming for hard shifts in cold weather (also a TSB available). 99k miles so far.
I will go with a stickshift every time. When I’m driving a friend’s automatic and it picks a different gear than I would pick it pisses me off to no end.
If your commute is a daily traffic jam, try looking around for another, less direct route. You might be surprised by what you find; even if it’s a little slower it can be worth it if it’s less stressful. You’re driving between these two destinations every working day, you might as well put as much effort into getting a less maddening commute as you did in picking out which car to go with.
I mean, it’s got to be worth a shot, anyway.
@aristurtle: “If your commute is a daily traffic jam, try looking around for another, less direct route. You might be surprised by what you find; even if it’s a little slower it can be worth it if it’s less stressful.”
I’m guessing you don’t have a long commute in a major US city? Some of mine in Atlanta could take up to an hour (in dry weather) and double that if it rained. When I lived in Cleveland, you could use the same factor for snow.
All looking for a less direct route will do for you is to make a long tiring chore even longer and more tiring. It’s even less fun when you have a specific deadline; i.e., picking up kids from daycare, where they charge a dollar per minute for every minute you’re late.
I can understand why people all use the same route, because generally speaking it is the fastest route. If the alternatives were any good, then folks would utilize those.
In the Detroit-metro, if you consider that a major city, I’ve opted for woodward vs. I75 and Southfield. So there’s always a way around.
Granted, if I lived in a mcmansion in the far out suburbs, I’d be screwed. 20 plus minute commutes are for the birds, when they fly south.
I’m not sure if Baltimore counts as a major city anymore, but I’ve found pieces of US-1, combined with some backroads, to be faster and less stressful than the segment of I-695 that I was using earlier.
Regarding going auto: Never have. Never will.
A properly driven manny-tranny is one of the true joys of life. It’s regrettable that it’s so difficult to find a decent car with a manual trans….
Me, I’d chose a standard every time, The transmission is likely to be the one really worthwhile thing about the car. My xB is a lot of fun with the 5-speed. From all reports the autos are utter dogs. But my commute is all back roads so I am rarely caught in any real traffic.
My g/f however would probably choose the auto. She is a die-hard manual lover and sings their praises every chance she gets. However her commute is 30 minutes of crawling traffic both ways. So she takes her auto-equipped MR2(inherited from a beloved family member) whenever there isn’t snow on the ground, because her other (stick) car is horrible for that commute.
Agreed about the Xb and I’ve had a 2006 in both manual and auto versions for comparison. The manual (current car) is great fun but in my long bay area commute, i do miss the auto (rear-ended/totalled last year) as does my left knee and hip.
+1.
I find the xB’s seating position already makes clutching more comfortable than other sedans because you sit more up right and clutch operation is almost like putting your foot on the ground and lifting it back up.
I am also fortunate enough to (now) have a day job very close to home so I don’t have to endure any rush hour traffic.
I finally pulled the trigger and bought a manual ($1000 less than the auto). I’m having fun with it even though I’m still learning its idiosyncracies while trying to train my feet to deal with them.
I ran into an opposite situation when recently buying my C30. I couldn’t find a bare bones manual version. Instead, I saved a few thousand by buying an auto that had been lightly used as a loaner car. I really would have preferred a manual but there are a lot of times in disgustingly bad TX traffic where I am glad I didn’t.
Realistically it would be awesome to have two cars :).
If I were going to by a modern (mistake #1), entry level (mistake #2), I’d avoid the (mistake #3) slushbox if possible. There was a time when low budget compacts were fun. This isn’t it: http://www.groupsracing.org.au/images/1958-Austin-Healey-Sprite-Hambro-All-Part-Of-The-Fun-ad%5B1%5D.jpg
Ha ha, had a ’62 Midget with no synchro on 1st, and know exactly what you mean. It was fun on twisty roads, though.
I have a ’73 Midget with no synchro on 1st, and I love it, even in city traffic. It’s narrow enough to squeeze past lines of stopped cars on and nimble enough to take turns at high speeds. That’s my point. Economy cars of the past had manual everything, top optional. Those=fun. Plastic jelly bean penalty boxes=not.
Stick! Its the only way to make a basic commuter car any fun at all. Creeping along in traffic isn’t *that* bad, most of the time I just push in the clutch and coast. The result is a huge gap between me and the car in the front, but then when everyone slams on the brakes the gap closes up nicely.
Thankfully most newer cars have paddle shifters which is a good compromise, but the ones that offer shiftable autos using the gear selector are junk because they swap the up/down shift directions. For me pulling back is UP, pushing forward is down… pilots agree, but most automakers haven’t figured this out yet.
Exactly. Driving a manual in traffic isn’t that bad. You just have to learn how to read the situation ahead a bit better. I can usually smooth out the starting and stopping to more constant speeds. Of course, this does require some paying attention.
JMII-
On most cars, changing the paddle inputs is an easy fix- You just swap the circuit inputs at the cable reel in the steering column (move two wires in the connector). Up becomes down, and down becomes up.
I find that the manual tranny keeps driving in traffic jams entertaining, even if my left leg tells me otherwise. The only time I hate the stick shift is if I’m stuck in traffic going up I-70 into the mountains (this can happen a lot in CO).
If it was my only vehicle than it has to be a manual.
My first car was a 1999 Escort ZX2 with a stick, and it was peppy and fun enough, but I was done with that noisy econobox and wanted to move up to something, smooth, fast, and fun, so I bought a 2004 Accord EX V6. The reviews all placed it at the top of the heap, fun, fast, reliable, and I wanted the “luxury” of an automatic… big mistake. The Accord may have been fast but it was anything but fun.
Fast forward two years and I’ve paid the Accord off and can’t wait to get rid of its boring droopy butt, so I swap out for a 2006 6-speed TSX, and what a revelation it was. Who needs a powerful V6, when you have a peppy rev happy car with a sweet stick? The sad thing is that the few times I’ve gotten automatic TSXs as loaners the fun factor dropped about 50%. I still drive that TSX five years later and enjoy it 99% of the time.
I’m sad that manuals seem to be leaving the market more and more. If, one day, I have no choice, I will miss mine.
I prefer stick shift in heavy traffic, too. I speak from experience. I spent years driving in heavy traffic to school and work. When I had to do it in an automatic equipped car, it was extreme torture. My right leg was killing me. I don’t know how you people tolerate it. You must have really strong leg muscles. I constantly had to press on the brake pedal — it was horrible. When I drove my manual transmission car, it was so much better. Now I could relax. I would put it in first and creep all the way, seldom touching that brake pedal. A light touch on the gas was not a problem for my leg. After a while I figured out a way to really only use the clutch several times during the 1.5 hours it took to get there.
I have driven many different cars with automatics, including many expensive ones: Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Volvo, SAAB, Lexus, etc. The only automatics transmission that does not completely suck that I have found is the one in newer full size GM cars with the 3.8, like Buick LeSabre, etc. Everything else just sucks. At the same time, vast majority of manual equipped cars I have driven are really fun to drive, including cheap ones.
People who drive automatics just don’t know what they are missing!
Sadly, SAAB sticks suck even more. I kid you not. My family has four Honda stickshifts, and had a Mazda stickshift and VW diesel stickshift by which to judge. The ones (especially on the 9-5) are horrible. Jerky, aweful, unrefined, inexact contraptions. The automatic is a relief.
Just a counterpoint there. Not every stick is better. 99% are though.
I had a GM900 convertible with the manual. Even when new these cars shifted like tractors, and the shift linkage and synchros on mine were so worn that getting it into third or fifth was a problem.
I’d still take it over any automatic car I’ve ever driven.
I have owned three SAABs — all had great manual transmissions. I have driven several 9-5s with a stick and really liked them as well. I have also driven 9-5 with auto — and disliked it immensely!
I’ve had 3 manual-shift Saabs, all of which I found comparable to modern hydraulic-clutch VWs (2 New Beetles and a Jetta wagon). The only recent manual-trans car that I’ve liked less than its auto-trans counterpart is the first-gen Subaru Forester. Great package, decent shifter, but an awfully heavy clutch for rush hour commutes.
The 2005-ish SAAB 9-5 wagon with a stick that my friend let me drive (this car is her *baby*) felt very similar to my VW, clutch-wise (a good thing). It was a cable shifter, so I was comfortable with the notchy feel of that, and the short throws felt marvelous. In every way it was better than the JSW TDI clutch (too soft) and shifter (throws too long) we test drove that day.
I’m sorry everybody, I drove an 02 9-5 Aero and it was like I was shifting in a tractor. The clutch was heavy and awkward to modulate, the point of engagement was awkward, the shifting action was heavy and inexact. Not to mention that when you actually did engage, the shifter lurched into a “different spot in 1st.” Somehow. All and all, it could’ve been completely awesome. 250HP + 5speed that revs at a good level on the highway. But it was such a disappointment. And I really wanted to love it too.
As for comparing it to VWs. I know their manuals aren’t highly prized, but my 01 Jetta TDI was still superior in almost all aspects. Any of the Japanese ones are worlds better.
Perhaps mine was a dud? I shall hit up the local dealer and give it another go. Notably, I like the stick in a base 03 9-3.
EChid, I just bought an ’04 9-5 Aero automatic, my sixth SAAB. I would normally always choose a manual, but this Aero was too good to pass up. Other 9-5 manuals I’ve owned and/or driven were nothing special, though not as crappy as you noted.
The 5 speed Aisin auto in the 9-5 is an excellent autobox, and in sport mode, it is very responsive. Luckily, 250hp moves the relatively light 9-5 very well, auto trans or not.
I’ll probably miss a manual some days, but the Aero has other charms to keep me interested.
@vvk suggesting an automatic is “extreme torture” on the body, and a manual is not nearly as physically demanding. I have now officially heard everything!
“When I drove my manual transmission car [in heavy traffic], it was so much better. Now I could relax. I would put it in first and creep all the way, seldom touching that brake pedal. A light touch on the gas was not a problem for my leg. After a while I figured out a way to really only use the clutch several times during the 1.5 hours it took to get there.”
So you barely used the brake or clutch but somehow managed to bring your car to a complete stop countless times when the vehicle in front of you came to a halt?
If the ‘heavy traffic’ you cite was not stop and go, then it wasn’t really heavy traffic.
>So you barely used the brake or clutch but somehow managed to bring your car
> to a complete stop countless times when the vehicle in front of you came to a halt?
Yes, cars in front of me came to a complete stop countless times. However, I always managed to keep my car creeping along without stopping by leaving enough distance in front and by planning ahead. I did this for several years, every day.
> If the ‘heavy traffic’ you cite was not stop and go, then it wasn’t really heavy traffic.
It was stop and go. I could creep along at <1 mph for minutes while everybody else was stopped. That was seldom required, though. Usually it was enough to roll in gear for 20-30 seconds and the car in front would start moving again. I would literally disengage the clutch maybe 5-6 times in over an hour.
And yes, automatic was torture in this traffic because I constantly had to push the heavy brake pedal. CONSTANTLY, without rest!
If working the brake on a car in traffic hurts your leg? But the clutch doesn’t? Unless you didn’t have power brakes that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
I am betting he was being sarcastic after all the people complaining that pushing clutch was such hard work.
> If working the brake on a car in traffic hurts your leg? But
> the clutch doesn’t? Unless you didn’t have power brakes
> that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.
Working the clutch would hurt as much or more. What I am saying I have to push brake thousands of times in an automatic equipped car during a bad stop and go commute. This is because the car wants to creep forward at 3-4-5 mph and the only way to slow down is to use brakes.
In a manual transmission car I only have to use the clutch a few times (vs. thousands for brakes) because if I am in first gear and I use my skill to plan ahead, I can easily modulate my speed by using just the gas pedal, which is very, very light compared to brake/clutch. Because a manual equipped car (at least the one I had when I had to commute in heavy traffic) can easily creep along at <1 mph in first gear, I can relax and my leg does not hurt. Plus, trying to do this (to avoid using clutch/brakes for 1.5 hours) is a challenge I enjoy, so it makes the bad commute much more tolerable.
This is so obvious to me that when people don't understand, I can only conclude they have not tried this themselves.
Automatic. Most of my driving is to get from point A to point B, and the added engagement that a manual provides doesn’t make the commute more enjoyable (and can make it less enjoyable if you’re in stop and go traffic).
Automatic 100% of the time.
It always boggles my mind that the stick vs auto debate is so feirce.
It seems like one of the only instances that I can think of that people (meaning the minority of car buyers in the U.S. i.e. Auto Enthusiasts) WANT to stick with the old technology.
Windows > DOS
Fridge > Hand delivered Ice Box
Steam Engine > Hand Crank
Stick > Auto ???
I could go on and on…
A car is an appliance at the end of the day, some are prettier, faster, smarter then others but it goes from A to B for 99% of the consumers.
For many, especially those that frequent car blog comments, a car is much more than an appliance and the daily commute is more than a trudge from point A to point B, even when it is a trudge. Logically, stick shifts should have died when autoboxes and powertrain computers became more efficient than an experienced driver with a 5 speed in his hand but pure rational logic has very little to do with automotive purchasing decisions.
I think you’re looking for Consumer Reports.
The manual vs. automatic debate isn’t as clear-cut as any of the other stuff you mentioned, or (more importantly) all of the other new stuff vs. old stuff debates with car equipment. Nobody really cared when (e.g.) manual spark advance went away, because the proper spark advance is determined pretty much entirely by the engine’s state, so an automatic system could get it right every time.
The proper transmission ratio, on the other hand, varies with upcoming road conditions, which your transmission doesn’t know about. It can at best make guesses based on engine state and throttle position and such. This isn’t going to get better until either (a) we have ubiquitous high-torque electric cars (or series hybrids like the Volt) where multiple gear ratios are unnecessary, or (b) we just let GLaDOS do all the driving entirely, like Google is proposing.
(And I assure you that the GUI vs. command-line debate is alive and well in computer geek circles.)
@Ohiopilot09
Going by your screen name I’d say we have something in common. A love of aviation. If the pilot (in your screen name) references something else then please forgive me.
I’m a manual man through and through but if I were to get some type of “automatic” it would be a dual clutch.
That being said I want to compare automatics and manuals to today’s do everything for you aircraft versus a true “stick and rudder” plane.
I’m not saying EFIS, FMS, and FADEC equipped airplanes are bad because they aren’t. They provide boatloads of information and if equipped properly can even land for you in zero vis, zero ceiling conditions.
But you become less of a pilot and more a manager over the various systems.
IMO and YMMV there’s nothing like getting into a stick and rudder airplane (the flying club here had a T-34B) to put a smile back on your face and shake off the tedium of airline flying.
Everything else being equal(and really even if things weren’t), manual transmission cars put a smile on my face.
I also would occasionally hand fly the airplane up to the flight levels but would usually engage the auto pilot passing through 10,000 ft during a climb and disengage it at ten during a descent.
That also put a smile on my face.
@patman
A stick costs about a grand less, is much less likely to have problems and will cost less to replace if it does. Seems like a pretty logical choice to me.
I’m guessing from the snide comments that the folks who are posting them about automatic preferr-ers, haven’t suffered an injury or arthritis to their feet or knee(s) or a truly grinding commute.
I used to looooove manuals, but after 5 years of commuting in Atlanta traffic, I gave up on them. In fact, I wanted to give up on commuting, period.
Even after moving to a mid-size midwestern town, I there was no advantage to the manny tranny, and my arthritic lower limbs were not loving all of the clutch action.
About five years ago, I decided to buy another manual car, but since I’m not involved in auto-x anymore, all the clutch does is aggravate my knee. Like Tom Wolfe said, you really can’t go home anymore.
I wasn’t aware there was a debate about GUI vs. command line. Obviously command line is vastly superior for any experienced user.
I still refuse to buy an automatic. I *just* bought a loaded Audi A4 becuase it’s one of the few cars you can still get with a stick shift.
I understand why stickshifts aren’t popular. you can’t eat a big mac or text your BFF or do pretty much anything else besides pay attention to driving the car when you have to row your own gears.
Hey, I wonder if anyone ever did a statistical survey of % stick cars in accidents vs. % automatic cars in accidents…
Hey, I wonder if anyone ever did a statistical survey of % stick cars in accidents vs. % automatic cars in accidents…
Can’t find the survey right now but I saw one a while back. It doesn’t seem to make a statistically significant difference either way. It’s too bad, I’d love an insurance discount for driving a manual.
It is possible to eat a burger, smoke and txt while driving a manual, in traffic, with a big cup of pepsi between your legs. I, uh, saw a guy…
But safety-wise, I firmly believe that people who drive automatics in general are the least aware of their vehicles, be it their lane position, speed, the limits of their machine or their own limits as a driver, the size of their vehicle (parking), or what’s going on in their mirrors. I understand that there are a lot of people on the roads who have left their stick at home to take the kids in the minivan, but these days there are fewer of them even, as no one seems to learn a manual these days.
Hey, I managed to talk on a phone, roll a cigarette and attempt to turn the radio off, all whilst steering my manual transmission equipped car at 80mph up a motorway a few years back. I’ve quit smoking since then.
I suspect a manual transmission is a fairly effective theft deterrent these days. I recently heard or read of an attempted carjacking that was thwarted because the perp couldn’t drive a stick. I must admit that I feel much more engaged when driving a manual, but to me, driving it in real stop and go traffic gets old in a hurry. My current commute is short, so it is no big deal, and I love being in 2nd gear RIGHT NOW when I need to be, but if I had a long nasty commute, I’d be shopping for something with an automatic.
This.
Cell phones. Big Macs. Mascara.
These and other imbecilic distractions are not particularly feasible with a stick-shift car.
Folks with 90 minute bumper to bumpers or bad knees can be forgiven, everyone else who calls themselves a man who prides himself on driving a slushbox or a DSG or whatever you call it, the queue starts at the ladies room.
Got a friend who bought a new SRT8 Challenger last year with two peddles. It took me everything in my power to stop myself from asking him if he sat down when he pissed.
A fun car with a slushbox hasn’t been made
Fixed it for you!
don’t hear a lot from all those slushbox buyers out there….maybe you’ve hit on something. Besides being lazy, they’re also illiterate. Who knew?
Slushbox buyers usually don’t frequent auto blogs.
Some of us do. If you want the “pleasure” of driving a stick in traffic, more power to you. It kind of makes me wonder what other forms of torture you’re into..
If I had the money for a weekend toy, I might buy a stick, but for something I drive every day, in heavy traffic, forget it. I love to drive, but getting stuck with a stick would kill it for me.
— “Slushbox buyers usually don’t frequent auto blogs.”
Standard buyers can’t afford auto.
Question for the B&B. Given the development of new transmissions like Porsche’s PDK and VW’s DSG, why can’t we have both? These transmissions use clutches not torque converters. Is it possible to rig up a clutch pedal and some computer software that allows true “stick shift” operation using a foot clutch? You could flip a switch to full “auto mode” when you’re stuck on US 66 in the morning commute.
They used to. Find yourself a 1941 M4/Vacamatic Transmission that Chrysler used and install it using a convenient adaptor plate!
I’d forgotten about that! My Dad had a 1953(?) Chrysler New Yorker with a similar transmission. I could never understand how it worked but he loved it.
I had a 1953 Chrysler New Yorker with fluid drive. It had the disadvantages of an automatic and a stick, and the advantages of neither. The gear ratios were like first, second, and fifth of a five-speed.
A good Dual-Clutch Transmission (DCT) like the VW DSG or the one in the Evo is, IMHO, the best of both worlds. I have driven the GTI with DSG and very much want one.
I fear that everyone is getting exposed to the DCT in the Focus, which has questionable “qualities”; the Ford won’t hold a gear and it apparently “shifts too much”.
I hear the CVT in the Honda CRZ is good, from an enthusiasts perspective. In my mind a CVT is the ultimate solution, but every one I have personally driven has artificial “gears” and has the responsiveness of a power-boat.
Nissan’s CVTs don’t have artificial gears unless you put them in “manual” mode. I think the Caliber doesn’t have artificial gears, either.
Yes, I believe the answer for automotive fun at the entry level is the dual clutch transmission. It offers an ability to just mellow out in heavy traffic by sticking in in Drive and forgetting about it, but drop it into Sport when you want a more spirited run without too much thinking. And finally you get Manual operation, where you can switch the gears yourself with either the paddle shifters or the stick itself.
Of course, as a 35 year continuous driver of manual transmission cars, I can state that even the best manumatic transmissions (like on my wife’s GTI) still aren’t as engaging as a traditional clutch. But technology is changing and we don’t roll down our own windows anymore nor do we crank start the car in the morning with a choke, either. The manual transmission, at least in the US, is becoming increasingly hard to find and I suspect will be close to impossible in the coming years. Whether we like it or not, the era is coming to an end.
My issue with most automatics is the software mapping and how, in the name of the best possible EPA gas mileage numbers, constantly has you upshift at 1500 RPMs. My 328i with an auto even starts you off in second gear from a stop for the same reason. Everything feels sluggish as a result.
While I haven’t driven one, I suspect a Ford Fiesta with its dual clutch transmission set in Sport mode would feel peppy and give an enthusiast some semblance of the fun they remembered from driving a manual Corolla in 1981.
A new Mustang GT with auto isn’t fun?
No, it’s a travesty.
Almost as much of a travesty as auto ‘Vettes (aka “Viagra edition”).
I’ll even say that it defeats the very purpose of the existence of the GT.
GT ‘Stangs with AT’s are for poseurs only.
Sorry. Stickshifts become a relative pain when it comes to the creep and crawl of modern driving.
I really haven’t found that to be the case as you can keep it in 1st and move with traffic 95% of the time just using engine braking. With an automatic you don’t get the same level of engine braking so you have to use the brake much more.
Bingo!
Agreed! I much prefer to commute in the STi instead of my wifes 3 speed neon for this reason alone…..I don’t often sit in rush hour traffic (very rarely) but when I do, I’m glad I have the stick.
Made that choice only once. At the time, I’d lived 20 miles from city center and had lived through the first 2 of 4 planned years of highway development. I said, “screw it, I’m just idling/creeping the whole damn way home, an automatic should be just fine”. Um, no. Whatever joy a 1987 Sentra could supply was definitely sapped by its automatic, what a gutless, sad conveyance. That, and it being among the last of its elaborately-electronically-controlled-but-still-carbureted kind led to any number of weird idling, stops-in-traffic issues. Never again. Stick-shift Mazda 5 at the moment, no regrets.
Every time I want to unwind in my 2007 5 speed MX5 on a certain twisty road, it’s always closed due to some car company shooting a commercial, advertising how much fun it would be to buy one of their cars and be able to row your own and be the only person within 10 miles and have this road all to yourself!
On the highway during 9 months of the year, a stick shift can be and is sheer torture for me. If I take a surface route, I know where the stops are and can plan for then, making a commute in the MX5 a much more pleasant experience.
When my new commute starts in a bit over two weeks, the only redeeming quality it will have is that taking the loop around town allows for somewhat quality motoring as there is very little traffic once I reach the highway. Once I experience this on a daily basis, and have time in the Impala and MX5, I’ll give the B&B a full report.
It all depends.
Just last week I drove two Fiat 500s back to back. The automatic made it just another gutless, pathetic commuter car, albeit with a roof that folded down.
The stick, on the other hand, made it an absolute blast to drive. Totally transformed the car. I have no idea why they even sell it with an automatic.
I drove sticks exclusively up until a few years ago, but I will select the following vehicles with automatics from now on:
Trucks: Not that you can even buy many trucks with sticks anymore, but the last one I drove — a 2005, I think — with a stick was kind of a lousy experience, especially towing a trailer. If you USE the truck at all, an automatic is a godsend. Towing, plowing, etc. is a pain in the ass with a stick.
Full-size cars: Again, not that you can buy one with a stick anyway, but after driving a bunch of big GM B-Bodies the last few years, I have grown to appreciate the big-ass American car with an imperceptibly shifting automatic. Paired with a proper V-8, they’re great. Once the engines start getting smaller, they’re no good.
My truck is the one and ONLY exception to my stick-shift only rule, mainly because sitting on a slick boat ramp with a heavy trailer behind you is NOT place to learn you only have two feet to work with! I had an SUV with a stick once and it was a mess: long throws with heavy clutch meant it was just as boring to drive as an auto but with none of the benefits.
I’ve even successfully converted my wife to manual-only crowd years ago. She claimed her father-in-law gave up trying to teach her stick, but once she drove my Honda it quickly became second nature. I think her father-in-law had her attempting to learn with his work truck which explains why she never got the joy of switching gears herself early on.
Ha! My buddy darned near lost a Mazda B series pickup into the Milwaukee River on a slimy boat ramp a couple of years ago. Light, RWD, manual, a recipe for disaster in that case. Any attempt to pull forward only resulted in sliding backwards. I had to have a guy with a jacked up 4wd Bronco from a nearby marina pull him off that ramp.
I know why they sell the Fiat 500 with an automatic: 90%+ of the market won’t even look at a manual shift. They need that shifting hand to hold the cellphone.
The best option for me would be like the Saab Sensonic transmission which flopped in the market, H-pattern manual with automated clutch(no pedal). The reason being that i have no use of my legs after a crash. It is possible to get a similar system retrofitted to any manual car, it’s quite expensive but my next car will probably be a manual anyway. The only downside is that it’s impossible to downshift and brake at the same time unless i grow a third arm ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_900#Sensonic
Stick only. And I’m buying shortly after the first of the year. At the moment, my first considerations are Fiesta, Mazda2, and Soul. Want to add a couple more to that list in the next five months, but not getting my hopes up.
The Hyundai dealer has a $1495 “market adjustment” tacked to every car in the lot – he’s out of consideration. Honda is going for premium bucks – highly doubtful.
Now that my wife has turned in her driver’s license (health considerations), I no longer have to get an automatic. And I’m damned if I’ll do so.
I’m happy with my current car, and fuel economy isn’t really an issue given my short commute, but part of me still wants a Mazda2 with a manual. Fun little cars!
Having driven manual cars all my life in the UK, I was sure that I’d stick with a manual transmission when I moved to Canada. I didn’t. Why? Exactly what Steve said. Stop lights every friggin’ block, slow moving traffic and crawling around at low speeds makes a clutch pedal a pain in the ass. I honestly thought North America was designed for the car with most western US/Canadian cities being built on the block system – but traffic doesn’t flow AT ALL. Going anywhere in Vancouver is stop-start-stop-start traffic. Driving in the UK is totally different in that traffic tends to move slower in cities – but it is always moving – hence I could live with a manual.
I’ve also found that outside of the city roads tend to be dead straight for miles and miles, requiring far less input from the driver. Take a trip down your average ‘B’ road in the UK and a manual transmission is a must, as winding roads which head up and down hill require you to drive at a pretty consistent average speed, which I find almost impossible to do in a car with an auto.
I was given an entry car as a loaner last month when my car was in service. This entry level car quickly exposed itself as a boring POS underneath all the cosmetics and the “tastes like butter but really isn’t butter” performance employed to make you think otherwise. If it had been a manual tranny it would have been an even worse experience. At the end of the day all it was really good for was as an A to B convenience device. Entry cars are still entry cars and “fun” is always going to be relative. In my case I’ve yet to find an entry level car that “truly outperforms all [my] expectations” therefore having a manual is moot. Plus most of them are FWD which negates the whole notion of a “sporty entry level car.”
I just laugh at people who think driving cars with computer controlled, automatically shifted transmissions with dual clutches makes them better than people who drive computer controlled, automatically shifted transmissions with torque converters. It is the very epitome of delusional.
I also think it is a joke when people claim they are manual aficionados and then complain about cars with narrow torque bands. If you’re too lazy to shift, get a barge with a slushbox and some elastic waisted pants.
Just bought a new subcompact. Tried most of them both ways if the standard was available with a high enough trim. With the little engines the auto’s still sucked just like they always have. It’s about the sound for me as much as anything. V8s sound fine with an automatic, 4s sound better with a stick. V6s rarely sound good no matter what.
Glad you qualified the comment about V6 sound. The Yamaha V-6 in my ’92 SHO had a wonderful snarl above 4,000 rpm, when it “came on the cam.” Pulled like a train, too.
This Alfa V6 sounds pretty damn amazing for any engine, nevermind a V6… ;)
http://youtu.be/eBy8wCYCKQM
Actually, most 4s sound like trash and some V6s actually sound pretty decent. I’ve never heard a 4-banger that actually sounded “good” – in fact, some of the most highly tuned 4s (Evo especially) are some of the ugliest sounding engines in the business.
Classic SAAB 900 Turbo sounds awesome. Or the rare 1985-86 900 two door sedan that was non-turbo but came with Turbo exhaust system from the factory. That was even better because it had no turbo to muffle the sound.
Original ///M3 E30 sounded wonderful.
Nissan/Infiniti VQ V6 whines terribly.
Honda, it seems is more affected due to the quake than Toyota, at least in terms of output. Toyota is down 979,000 Units in the first 6 months out of 4.3 Million units produced in 2010 first half. For first half, Honda is down by 500,000 units out of 1.8 M made in same period last year.
Ah yes. MT vs AT. Good link bait(and I am falling for it).
I honestly think people who complain about Manual in traffic aren’t very comfortable with manual. If it was truly second nature, what is there to complain about?
I am 46, and I have never owned anything but MT cars.
There is only one time in my life that a MT was a PITA, I was going up a long hill, in traffic, and the Hydraulic clutch lost all it’s fluid so I had no clutch at all. I could still shift by rev matching, but stopping equaled stalling, and starting was a mess as the starter motor had to move the entire car (but it actually did start and get moving). That was the longest hill of my life.
But with a working clutch and working arms/legs I will take MT all the way to my grave.
Traffic a problem? What? Shifting/clutching are second nature. It is no more effort than walking. Plus engine braking in 1st gear lets me creep up/down without touching the clutch or the brakes for long stretches.
For the people who really love MT, there is no But…
Case in point for this story: I live in the boonies, so I walk my dog on our country road all the time. Someone who frequents the road was taking a new red Kia Forte Koup up and down it at seriously unsafe levels, which annoyed me. But I accepted it, “their just trying it out” I thought. Then I listened. It was an automatic. They had purchased (with aggressive driving aspirations) a brand new sporty Kia without a manual transmission. I came home ranting, not about the excessive speed at which the car had narrowly passed me on the road, but about the fact that someone had purchased it with an automatic transmission.
In a Kia it’s not that bad. A friend of mine was going to buy a new Miata with an automatic. That is just wrong.
Not nearly as wrong as the fact that it has cupholders.
Ha! I actually liked the cupholders in my 2006 Miata, but I can understand why others would hate them. The ones in the center were useless, but the protruding ones on the door were much more useful, if a bit in the way at times.
If my driving was only in winding roads or open highways, a stick would be a no-brainer, in reality I use my car for work, mostly local, street level driving with so many freaking stop light/signs that it would take any “fun” away from driving a manual, I’ve noticed that even UPS trucks now come with automatic. BTW this double-clutch thing is dumb. I prefer a CVT.
IMHO, I hate the manumatic more than anything. I just can’t stand driving a car in manumatic mode.
If I had to choose, it would be a stick first, automatic second. If it is a automatic, save the $200 (just guessing) that it cost for the manumatic “feature,” and give me a regular automatic.
My mom’s Volvo S40 is has the manual shift mode, and it’s nothing to write home about. It’s kind of fun, but it’s not like a real stick shift. Especially when I try to clutch or push down to try to shift into 2nd or 4th.
Used to be manual shift for me – I did not mind it even in Moscow’s seas of congestion.
Living in Canada though, the choice of stick shifters is much poorer. Would love to have my 3.0R Outback with one – but tough luck.
As well, swtiching from mechanical throttle to drive-by-wire killed the precision of control – revs do not drop as they should, etc. The darn thing has the mind of its own.
That is why I am thinking of car#2 – something older, pre-wire.
Would love mine to have one too, but knowing the Japanese and manuals, it would feel great but would rev to eternity on the highway. The benefit of the 3.0R is its calmness on long highway drives, partially because the transmission lets it rev low.
I definitely agree, and if it would have been available…we would have gotten one instead of the 2.5i with a manual. I don’t really miss the extra features either, it’s our “do-all” rig, and I didn’t really want a turbo engine.
You could get the 3.0R and manual in a Legacy wagon in Japan and Europe. I can imagine it would have been similiar to driving a Legend Type-II with a manual, smooth and a longitudinal engine ahead with no torque steer.
My 98 TL (with a Type-II manifold and intake) has an automatic, first one too. I actually don’t mind it most of the time when cruising to work (no traffic in Boise), but it is not so much fun on the backroads which is a shame because the car is enjoyable to drive. Maybe I’ll find a used CTS with a manual in a few years.
Manual, double-especially for a little thing. They’re just no fun with an auto box. Most of my driving is highway trips (I live in a dense city, where driving sucks and cycling is a lot of fun, so the cars mostly stay in the garage) but even in the city I’ve never found an automatic annoying. A light, progresive clutch, a tractable engine and looking and planning ahead will let you crawl along in traffic without clutching a million times and hating it. My primary car is now a cherry I4/5AT Accord that I sort of inherited, and it’s the first car I’ve ever had with an automatic (and I learned to drive a manual when I was 12.) I still push the imaginary clutch pedal sometimes and I really wish it was a manual, but it was too good to pass up. It seems to me that the smaller a car gets, the greater the enjoyment edge that a manual has.
I drive both kinds. I don’t find the Civic to be so exciting even with its stick, because I barely think about the shifting thing; and the pedals are too far apart to comfortably heel-and-toe. The clutch is light, so traffic isn’t a problem either. Now in the miata, that’s another story. It has a reason for a manual. Auto trans isn’t much different to me than the boring Civic, my brain’s on auto anyway.
Old lightweight car with a stick and a decent sized straight- or v-6 with some torque will normally be no problem.
New cars, none that I now of, but I guess there’s a reason 50% of the new cars sold in Norway are diesels because of the decent torque. Small commuter cars with small engines could just as well only be sold with automatics, especially since only really old people buy them anyway.
I’m more amazed that so many muscle cars were (are?) automatics, because with a 440 magnum or 428 CJ you could probably drive almost anywhere in 3rd or 4th, if the clutch isn’t unbearable…
I’ve driven stick all my life and don’t notice it in heavy traffic… until I get a rental and notice how much more convenient life is without clutching a bazillion times in congested traffic. The first day after the rental, going back a stick feels like a chore… it wears off eventually.
The problem is that in my case, everybody else who could use the car either can’t drive manual or sucks at it. Paying $20-$30k for “fun” is, to be honest, financially irresponsible if you are giving up the opportunity cost of improving your family life by having a car that can be shared between different people. This, of course is moot if everybody in your household drives manual, but that’s a pretty rare occurrence in my experience.
One truly fun autobox was the ECVT in the Subaru Justy GLs. They have a bad rep. for breaking, though I never managed to and the two I owned were driven pretty damned hard. You had two ‘gears’ D and DS and an automatic magnetic clutch. It gave you all of the torque output of the engine all of the time and would out run the most surprising things. Saab Turbos, SHO Tauri(sp), Mustangs to about 45mph, and it was faster than the stick by days.
Automatic all the way.
Now with 7 and 8 speeds the fuel economy will break even, and the most cars have Tiptronic. The clutch is becoming obsolete.
Besides in heavy traffic manual is a lot of work, and annoying. Besides economy cars aren’t supposed to be fun to drive, that is the point of SPORTS CARS.
I learned to drive on a stick. I drove a stick for a few years with work trucks and loved it.
Traded my automatic car in on a 5 speed. It was awesome.. until two years of stop and go commute both ways utterly and completely destroyed any inkling of desire to ever own another manual equipped car in my lifetime. I would probably still have that car if I would have bought it with an auto.
I will never own a vehicle that is used everyday with a stick shift in it again.
If I ever buy a work truck though, a stick shift would not be a deal killer. Because it would be used for hauling stuff, and not a gussied up truck dressed in leather and 20″ rims.
But for commuting, which is 80% of the driving I do I’m sticking with an automatic. I’m not in a high enough income bracket to afford a second vehicle for the 20% of the drive time I’d enjoy a stick shift, and also be able to afford a truck that I would use maybe 5% of the time.
Ahh, first world economic problems.
A thirty mile each way commute into a congested metro area means the my daily driver has to be an automatic. My weekend convertible for my home in the boondocks is a stick.
I wouldn’t limit the conversation to just low-end cars. Big fancy cars are just as boring with an automatic. I find that big fancy cars with loads of power (AMGs for example) are maybe the worst, as the only entertainment there is some full-throttle runs that land you dead or in jail in a hurry.
If you drove/owned one you will no doubt think differently. I used to feel that way eons ago. But the auto transmissions of the AMGs can be used in full manual mode, and with very convenient “flappy paddle shift levers.” Try doing an AMG Driving Academy event at the road track (you don’t have to be an AMG owner to attend) and you’ll be surprised. You can sample a variety of models with MCT, DCT (SLS), and the 7G Tronic Speedshift Plus. Using the paddles keeps your hands on the wheel and lap times are much improved too (much faster than manual shifting with foot pedals and a center console lever.) It’s why F1 drivers love their semi-automatic sequential gearboxes with paddles at the wheel.
I agree that a full manual with a foot clutch pedal is great fun in a true sports car (Porsche 964/993/997, e.g.) on a nice weekend run up into the mountains. But putting auto trannys in the current AMGs (or in supercars such as the British and Italian marques) do not make them boring at all. The E and S Class AMGs are heavier 4 door sedans and even a manual won’t change that fact. They have loads of power because they were primarily designed for Autobahn driving. But even so, using the tranny in full manual mode is still a lot of fun on back roads. Despite their weight, they feel relatively nimble.
I wonder if anybody here has owned/driven a 1960-70s era Ferrari or Maserati? Shifting those cars was difficult, tedious, and slow (heavy and temperamental clutch pedals and gated shifters); all the “fun” would wear off after several hours.
My previous car was an AMG. I owned it for nearly 8 years. I’ve also had some time in the 6.9. Driving at the track is entertaining because you can push the handling of the car, but you can’t really do that in high density traffic on public roads. So I’ll agree that an automatic can be great fun to drive on a race track (especially for inexperienced racers like me). But for the other 99% of the time I’ll take the stick-shift.
How about two otherwise identical cars? There was time when my parents and I each had 1986 300Es, but mine had the stick. One moment of excitement in my parents’ car was after just switching from my car and, when slowing to a stop sign, was desperately trying to find the clutch! Given the gearing, the automatic might actually have slightly better acceleration at lower speeds, but it definitely was less fun. Mine had the not-so-great Borg Warner 5 speed, not the nice Getrag of the 2.3-16.
I went to a local Porsche dealer’s test driving event (on public streets) and drove Boxster S, Carrara S, the sedan and the truck all with the “flappy paddles” you mention. Lots of flapping, but the best part of the afternoon was when I drove home in my stick-shift Cayman S. :-)
What if the choice comes down to a sloppy linkage manual with a nasty digital clutch pedal action, or a torque converter auto with decent lockup functions, prompt gearchanges, willing to downshift, with a manu-mode that holds gears to the rev limiter?
Nasty mechanicals can make a manual into a buzzkiller.
Now a well-sorted manual, with ratios and spacing that complement the engine’s power band, a linkage that allows you to know the current gear by touch based on the shifter position (without having to look down at it), smooth throws with modest resistance, gates that are hard to miss, synchros that can keep up with a little hooning, a clutch pedal that’s not too heavy or too soft, and clutch engagement that covers most of (but not more than) the distance I can move the pedal by pivoting my ankle while my heel is supported, and at least enough low end torque to forgive the occasional quick clutch dump without stalling. That’s the kind of setup that’s a pleasure to use each and every time.
Memories of the ’79 Malibu with a 3-speed manual that I drove once incline me to agree with that point. The he-man clutch was really well-matched to the two-finger steering effort.
@Benz
Run that by me again. “Digital clutch”, as in clutch by wire? While I’m not unhappy with throttle by wire on my current car, clutch by wire just seems wrong.
http://www.cardesignonline.com/safety/pedal-box-design.php
What’s the point? Just put a button acuator on the shifter. Sounds like a good TTAC article topic.
In this case, I believe that “digital” means it’s on or it’s off – no middle ground – no slipping the clutch. I drove a Corolla that was sort of like that. Very hard to drive.
I drive 30,000 or more miles a year in Los Angeles traffic with a manual transmission equipped car. I’ve been driving manuals for over 25 years and love them. My next car, however, will be an automatic.
It’s not slow moving traffic in LA; it’s stop and go. Slow moving traffic is easy to deal with, stop and go requires constant work: clutch in, stop, accelerate, shift to second, drive slow, stop again due to merging traffic, clutch in, start again, shift to second, repeat ad naseum.
I do find all of the commentators that say only true sports cars have manuals. I guess Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche (not to mention the GTR, EVO, RS4, etc.) are all not true sports cars since they using a dual clutch transmission.
The whole point behind a manual is to allow the driver to select which gear they desire and not the car. If your transmission will allow you to do so (i.e., DSG), then how is that any different than a manual? You are manually selecting the gear, just without the added complexity of using your left leg.
There’s no point in maximizing the “fun car” potential when there’s nothing fun about your commute. If you can creep continuously you don’t have real traffic. You don’t even know what real traffic is. Around here if you leave that big a space ahead of you at least one other car will dive on it. Eventually you begin to feel like you’re driving in reverse.
My DSG is close enough to a manual for me. I have nothing to prove. I made two children with my wife, my masculinity is just fine, thank you very much.
In a few years when I retire maybe I’ll go back to a fun car with a manual. Then I can make my own rules, like not going anywhere during peak commute hours.
“I guess Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche (not to mention the GTR, EVO, RS4, etc.) are all not true sports cars since they using a dual clutch transmission.”
They’re versions of sports cars equipped for a market (the US) where many potential customers are not capable of operating an ordinary manual transmission. Not offering an auto would be a deal-breaker for many buyers.
If you’re considering resale value of the car, and it’s not a sports car or at least a “sports sedan,” then buying a manual is an extravagance. Your car will sell for less used and be harder to sell.
In terms of performance, I’m not sure that a good multi-speed (5 or more) gives away much to a manual, so long as you can defeat the programming that is heavily biased toward fuel economy. (I’m talking to you 2012 Ford Focus!)
Today’s hydraulically-operated clutches are hardly a big effort to operate . . . and just think, for your left leg, your morning commute saves you 30 minutes on the Stairmaster!
To the commenter above who wondered why automatics were fitted to the supercars of the monster car era, such as the Dodge 440 (that’s cubic inches, son!) Magnum, I’ve driven a Dodge 440 Magnum — in 1969 — and I can tell you that clutch had a stronger return spring than a number of 10-wheel trucks and construction CATs that I also have driven. There are two reasons why today’s clutches are generally easier to deal with: (1) they’re hydraulic, rather than mechanically linked, so that effort can be minimized and (2) for the most part, they are hooked up to engines that produce less torque at low rpms than the bigger displacement engines of the good ol’ days, so the return spring is weaker.
Turbos on 4-cylinders love automatics as the turbo is always spooled. And you know some tuner has a program to keep that waste gate open a little longer. :)
I ended up choosing the best of both worlds – my 86 190e 16v has an autobox. A rev-happy 4 with good ratios on 2-3 means that I can either zone out and drone out in D with traffic, or lock a lower gear when the gaps open up.
I love me some cog-swapping, but on a commuter car, no thank you sir. Engine braking is bad for $2k timing gears.
You missed out on the best stick-shift ever put into a Mercedes road car (at least until the 21st century).
I started out driving manuals. Horrible Chevrolet truck manuals. Moving from bad manuals to a reasonably good automatic was an upgrade. Automatic transmissions are the better tool for the job when moving slowly with frequent unplanned stops.
Engines and transmissions have to work as a team. A car with an automatic transmission wants an engine with a broad power band that’s tolerant of less than perfect gear selection. This problem is compounded in economy cars by insuficient gear ratio transmissions tuned for maximum numbers on fuel economy tests and engines tuned to market peak horsepower numbers. I prefer used midsize cars over new econoboxes.
I’ll pick a manual as long as my armband legs work correctly. Driving a manual can be a chore or it can be easier than driving an automatic; it depends on the car.
In my Focus driving in traffic is stupid easy. The clutch is light and the engagement point is near the middle. I had a Ranger that had a slightly heavier clutch, but the engagement point was near the top, it was tiring after 2 hours in slow traffic. My wife’s Accord I wouldn’t want in traffic simply because I’m not used to the heavier clutch (I hardly drive it).
But the short answer is I’d take a manual as long as I like the way the clutch operates.
Manual all day everyday.
I can’t stop gushing about the 2006 Mazda6s I’ve been driving for the last three years. A V6/Manual combo is like manna from heaven (better if it’s a V8)and I have a pretty hectic commute to and from work. Sure my leg and arm get a workout (my left leg is visibly larger than the other I think) but I wouldn’t be happier any other way. My mother drives a Camry and I admit, it can be a bit relaxing to let the automatic do its thing but then the Camry (or anything else that automatic is attached to) becomes an appliance and hence, no fun.
Even in traffic just snicking through the gears is fun.
Now if only I could get a manual transmission in a CX-9 then my search for a bigger vehicle would be over!
Make my choice an Auto, for anything larger than a motorcycle. My wife can’t drive a manual (and she doesn’t drive a motorcycle). Motorcycles with a 5 speed manual are wonderful, going up through the gears on a Yamaha XS750 was thrilling, what an awesome sound, up shifting without a clutch, 13,000 rpm! But note that a motorcycle doesn’t get used like a car, and you don’t usually share one as transportation.
Traffic around here seriously sucks, and after an hour of start-stop, my leg gets too tired to press the brake, never mind work the clutch. (Chronic Medical conditions suck.) An Auto is more practical in a car.
Stick shift only We’ve never owned an auto and never will. Heck, even the family minivan growing up was a stick (1984 Toyota Van LE). I still have it, so my current family van is a stick too! Of course, for 99.9% of family duty, we drive the wife’s Matrix XRS (stick of course).
When we need a little more space in a family car and finally replace the matrix, either stick shift Accord or Mazda5. So the stick shift will continue! [hopefully the mazda5 5MT is still made then]
To say someone who would drive an auto over a stick under most circumstances is stupid, illiterate, a worse driver, unaware of their surroundings, doesn’t appreciate cars, etc etc etc is just plain wrong.
Plenty of people, myself included, would take an automatic over their primary car any day, however if they have the luxury of having a second vehicle as a travel car, weekend toy, or to just a mix it up vehicle they would take the it in manual all day long.
For instance, a very good friend of mine (who happens to frequent this site as well) drives an automatic Fusion as his daily & winter driver, and his toy is a 2006 Corvette, and his previous toy was a 2005 Cobalt SS.
Thinking that someone who drives auto is a lesser driver than yourself speaks volumes about your ignorance.
I’m transmission-agnostic: I would really have to drive the auto and manual versions of the car back-to-back. In some cars, i.e. the Mazda3, the shifter and clutch are well-designed and make shifting enjoyable; in others (cough) (base model Corolla) (cough) they make driving a chore.
Also, in some cars, one transmission is known to have problems, but not the other. You know which cars I’m talking about.
Some cars are just suited to one type of transmission; some are better with the other.
And oh yes, few things annoy me more than “OMG slushbox isn’t really a car LOLZ” self-proclaimed “enthusiasts” on certain car websites (not necessarily TTAC). It’s one thing to prefer one type of transmission for a certain car or type of driving; it’s another to make oneself look insecure.
I have owned 8 vehicles in my life and all but one have been stick shifts, several didn’t even have tachs. I can’t imagine I’ll buy anything without a stick again as long as I have 4 functioning limbs. tellingly the lone auto tranny vehicle I ever owned was the one I kept for the shortest amount of time.
I used to drive manual. For twenty years. Never thought I would like or even prefer automatic. Two years ago my clutch foot, where the clutch pedal contacts the foot, started getting painful to the point of not being able to walk properly. So I switched to a car with auto tranny. Now it seems very inefficient to drive manual in the city; on the open road yes, for sure, but in the city it’s actually silly. All these talks about the auto tranny being in wrong gear in city driving are nonsense. Modern autos are very good for city driving. I can’t even imagine going back to manual for city driving, even if my left foot would be happy with it. The constant shifting… Drivers who insist on driving manual in city traffic are one or more of the following: 1) control freaks; 2) unable to let go of the past; 3) trying to project a macho image.
Oh, and when it comes to fuel consumption, my auto-equipped car takes ever so little more than the same car with manual – speaking from experience. As I say, modern autos are good (though not perfect). BTW, I’m not sure the folks in Lotuses, Porches, BMWs have more fun driving in stop-and-go traffic (such as here in Toronto) than drivers in Corollas and Elantras (more comfort yes, but not more fun).
I wish I had a stick shift, but I was given my 2005 Impala LS with the column shifter. That at least helps negate some of the sadness of driving an auto, plus there’s the fact that it’s the 3800 with the GM 4-speed. I have driven sticks-anything from a 91 S10 to a C5 Corvette and several 40s and 50s military vehicles. I enjoy stick, but alas this car is paid off.
In a big barge like my Impala there’s nothing like an automatic. But hopefully one day I’ll be able to own a nice stick.
Only Americans prefer to drive autos. Kinda hard to shift with all that fat around. :)
I don’t mind having a stick in traffic (actually prefer it), and find it more engaging both in speedy driving (work harder to go faster) and sedate commuting (work harder to save gas). Where I don’t like it is when I have passengers- with my car at least achieving auto-level smoothness is impossible, and even getting close takes zen-level concentration. Some other transmission/clutch combos I’ve driven seem like smoothness is much easier to attain, so it’s probably just my car.
That said, I will always want to own a stick shift. I could see having an auto for a DD, but it would have to be some sort of dry clutch setup. VAG’s DSG in particulat is divine, I’ve had the pleasure of tossing a new A3 around and it really did warm my cockles like a good manual. The reliability verdict for those isn’t quite in, though.
I have the same problem with mine. I’ve had passengers who report being prone to motion sickness and reported getting ill after riding in my car. Full disclosure, I’ve had a manual for a grand total of 6 months and am still very much the novice with some more kinks to work out. I learned on my friend’s 98 Mustang GT, which had a decidedly heavy clutch. The combination of a CDV, and DBW make it difficult to get down. I’m getting better, but I know there is a way to go.
Part of why I like it is because there is always an adjustment that can be made to drive more smoothly.
From what I’ve seen/experienced the smoothness of shifts in a manual transmission has two factors:
1. The driver
2. The car
Some cars are much easier to shift smoothly in than others, but smooth shifting has a lot more to do with how/when you are shifting. I know my shifting isn’t perfect, but I’ve had quite a few passengers note that they didn’t realize I was driving a manual until I mention it. When I am driving at a relaxed pace I will shift early (between 2,000-2,500RPM), I don’t take very long shifting, and I match engine speed before releasing the clutch. It seems most difficult to shift smoothly when shifting mid-RPM range under light acceleration.
Shifting smoothly is easier in some cars than others, but most people will probably never shift as smoothly as a conventional “slushbox” automatic (myself included). My wife gets car sick much more easily than I do and she’s never felt car sickness as a result of the way I’m shifting (only time she’s gotten car sick with me is when I’m driving down a winding road in an automatic).
I find it harder to drive smoothly with a passenger too. I suspect the increased weight throws off my timing slightly, as I’ve also had smoothness issues when carrying 200 pounds of stuff in the trunks. My theory is that I get into a natural rhythm of accelerating in a gear for a certain duration before shifting, but with the extra weight I’m not accelerating as much and so after the same duration I wind up shifting at a lower RPM, which is the curse of rough shifting for me.
This whole comments section reminds me of an article from this site about 7 years ago. It was originally linked to another website about manual versus auto.
What do you think?
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2004/11/death-to-the-stick-shift/
In that article, the author stipulated that manual transmissions were less safe because they promoted “distracted driving”. He then cited a document that did not study whether or not manual transmissions contributed to distracted driving. He then admitted that his source material didn’t actually support what he went on to say but it was totally obvious if you just use common sense. (I have nothing but contempt for that line of thought. Aristotle loved that shit and it held back our knowledge of physics for millenia. He went as far as to claim that human females had fewer teeth than males, using logic and common sense to prove his point. The man was married twice and never bothered to count. Sorry, I digress, this pushed one of my buttons.)
It was a painfully stupid editorial. Usually when you don’t have actual data you just BS around it with “Studies show…” or “Clearly,”.
Aside from a certain Chapparal that had an autobox from years ago :) and a truck for towing I will always prefer a manual. Driving a slushbox is like riding the lazy river as opposed to the looping water slide at the Dells.
I’m surprised no one has brought up the durability issue, it seems that many cars, especially small and midsize cars, die an early death due to automatic transmission issues.
For a 4cyl commuter car, especially a used one with higher miles, manual is the only way to go due to durability concerns. In addition, the ability to initiate a downshift and make use of the meager power on demand is critical for getting out of dangerous situations around town and and the freeway.
For cars and trucks with a fatter power band this is less of a concern.
Entry level cars should have manual transmissions to make the most out of engine power – or lack thereof – but most people opt for the slushbox.
With the exception of a 81 Ford Escort I have owned nothing but standard transmissions and will continue to buy them until they’re no longer offered.
And yes crawling along traffic in a manual can be a drag at times, but it’s a small trade off for me, and too much for many others unfortunately.
When I bought my V8 1/2-ton pickup I went out of my way to get one with a stick shift. The clutch is even fairly heavy, quite heavy compared to some of the smaller cars I test drove two years back (Versa, Fit, SX4, Mazda3, Fusion). The shifter is a long-throw too, and lately it’s pretty worn at nearly 150k, but it’s still a lot more fun than autos. My commute is rarely creeping traffic jams, but it’s about half stop-n-go suburban driving. When I do get to traffic jams I can usually keep it in 2nd and idle along at 10mph, or drop to the semi-granny 1st which requires throttle input to exceed 5mph on the flat. Maintaining a constant motion without coming to full stops in traffic helps traffic jams disperse quicker anyway. I just recently completed a highway trip up I-95 and MD-295 to 895 and more I-95 this past weekend. Traffic was very heavy and slowdown jams occurred at every major interchange, but engine braking and cruising in gear made the jams a breeze, and the few dead stops I come to are made much easier by dropping it into Neutral; when you see the second car up start moving you can get into 1st quicker than the car in front of you can start moving anyway.
Anyone that complains about manuals in traffic either just isn’t doing it right or they’re way more lazy than they admit to themselves.
A manual is the way to go. Especially in cheap cars with small engines.
Some luxuryliners with V8s and such manage to be fairly smooth when driven dynamically, even with a slushbox, but not small 3s, 4s, 5s and NA 6s. The only exception to that rule I am aware of, is the 4runner which somehow manage to have a smooth driveline, despite the archaic hardware.
Also, on cars where price is a concern, a stick is cheap, and the money saved is better spent elsewhere.
Family of four. Three can already drive a manual trans. And my 16 year-old son is getting up early these summer mornings to practice driving the 5-speed around our neighborhood. He’s the most excited he’s been since he started driving. He’s having fun and gaining a sense of accomplishment.
Agree that if you’re having trouble driving a manual in heavy traffic, you’re not doing it right. You’re probably not driving/planning far enough ahead.
Other good reasons to drive a manual, as many have mentioned:
Less time for all of the modern mobile distractions (find a radio station you like).
If you buy used, like I do, there’s less chance you’ll have a catastrophic AT fail that will cost you more to repair than the cost of the car.
Used cars with manual transmissions can be purchased for less than cars with a comparable automatic.
If your manny trans breaks you can get it fixed. And unlike most automatics, fixed as good as new.
Plus more mechanics know how to fix a manual.
And best of all, research has shown that owning a manual transmission car is actually a theft deterrent. Most thieves can’t drive them so they don’t steal them.
The manual vs. automatic debate is an interesting one. In years past, I, too, preferred a stick-shift, but with the advent of automatics with the same number of gears that get as good (and in some cases, better) fuel mileage, I’m inclined to side with the automatic crowd. I consider a manual in traffic a minor annoyance because, as others have pointed out, simply leaving it in first gear and idling will allow you to creep much more effectively than an automatic. Of course, this only works if you don’t mind leaving a sizable gap between you and the car in front of you (and allowing other vehicles to slide into that gap).
Another point in automatics favor is resale. It’s not nearly as tough to unload an auto-equipped vehicle as a manual (unless maybe it’s a heavier-duty truck).
But with the smallest cars (with the smallest engines), unless you really have to have an auto, a manual is definitely a better choice.
As to durability issues with automatics, it shouldn’t be forgotten that clutches go out, too. At the very least, most of the sticks I owned eventually developed a hair-trigger clutch due to ‘spirited’ shifting.
Driven mostly stick for over 40 years.
Some time in the next year, my future daily driver will be an automatic.
I will keep my 5 speed manual Audi and drive it on nice days and weekends.
Stop and go traffic, is way too hard on my left knee and ankle.
Personally I love a good manual trans but which manufacturers are really putting effort into building good ones? Since it’s only the entry level cars that come with them, some manufacturers have been accused of putting very little effort into making the manual satisfying.
Has anyone reviewed a base model Sentra or Optima to find out if the 6 speed stick is satisfying or sloppy?
Haven’t driven a base Sentra or Optima but the WRX while not an entry level has a pretty nice stick (even if it could be a bit stiffer but that’s easily remedied).
I recently wanted to test drive a 335i and there wasn’t a manual on the lot.
I like manuals. Others like autos.
Horses for courses.
I have read on TTAC and on ther sources that the Mazda MX5 has one of the best. I have to agree with “them”.
The Wrangler I owned until March a year ago and just before we bought our MX5 had a horrible tranny. It did not like to engage 2nd gear at all. Quite hard to shift from 1st to 2nd. Now, it’s someone else’s problem.
I leased a 2006 MX5 with the 5 speed manual and found it to be quite satisfying, but let’s face it, the people who designed the MX5 spent a good deal of time honing the manual since most people who buy an MX5 go with a stick.
My 2006 TSX with the 6 speed manual feels every bit as good as the MX5 though. Great shifter.
A manual has other benefits besides being fun. You can:
1. push start your car if necessary
2. use engine braking going down a hill
3. have better control driving in the rain (as long as you know enough not to down shift hard on a curve and throw your car out of balance)
4. rock your car out of a snow bank more readily than an automatic
5. choose to drive efficiently or enthusiastically
I have a Mazda 3 with a stick. It’s so well put together, I find it doesn’t bother me if I’m stuck in traffic.
Sorry, WheelMcCoy, but according to your Mazda 3’s owners manual, you can’t push start a manual Mazda 3. Messes with your emissions equipment. Ticked me off when I found out that….
Agh! Thanks for the heads up. Yup, my manual says push starting will damage the emission control system. I always felt that was my ace in the hole in case of a dead battery, but it looks like I’m better off with a jump start.
What damage to the emission system would push starting make?? It sounds like one of those generic,”our lawyers made us say it” statements. If I needed to push start, I still would.
I have wonky starter on my Ford and I have done a push start several times. Quite a nice benefit for MT IMO.
BTW I don’t get #4 on the list. I have seen people jam the AT into FWD-REV faster than can or would want to on my MT to rock a car in snow.
That being said, I have only been stuck in snow once in in my life and that was after spinning out in snowstorm and going partway into a ditch.
@Bytor – My Mazda 3 engine is PZEV, so it’s almost as clean as a hybrid regarding emissions. When push starting a car, after getting some motion, I put it into 2nd, pop the clutch, and give a little gas. I am guessing the “little” (unburned) gas will flood some component that hurts the emissions control. I’ve never had to push start my Mazda, but I did have to do it for my old Integra a long time ago. But that was before PZEV engines.
As for item #4, it isn’t about shifting speed when rocking out of a snow bank. The idea is to carve out a small runway. I was parked in the city (old Integra again) and snow plows pretty much buried me and froze over. I dug out as much as I could and began slowly going into first and reverse, but didn’t want to grind my gears! Also, riding the clutch a bit let me control how much torque I was sending to the front tires. You can’t do that with an automatic.
One more thing; to do this, you need to turn off dynamic stability control, which the Mazda 3 fortunately allows with a push of a button. The Integra didn’t have DSC so it wasn’t a problem!
Rocking implies back and forth. Living in Canada I have seen many do this over the years. You end down in a rut, with banks high points back and front that you can’t easily get over.
The actually rocking technique involves quick changing direction when you are the high point on one end to get your best run at the opposite end. This involves quickly shifting Fwd/Rev. I have seen it done many times with AT and it can be near instant. You simply can’t do that in with a MT. That to me is rocking.
But it is something I have never had to resort to, ever despite my 25+ years of winter driving in Canada.
“This involves quickly shifting Fwd/Rev. I have seen it done many times with AT and it can be near instant.”
That is really, really bad for automatics. It’s better to spend a few dollars on a small shovel and a bag of sand or kitty litter than to spend several thousand dollars on a new automatic transmission.
“Rocking” a manual would be pretty bad on the clutch, too.
I didn’t say it was a good idea. But growing up in snow country this what rocking is and AT is more suited to the quick change to keep the momentum going.
Not something I would do and I carry a shovel that I would use before abusing my drivetrain.
4.rock your car out of a snow bank more easily than an automatic.
+1.
The 3 does have a nice stick and clutch. A bad clutch can make driving in traffic a chore…
I’m sorry, but this whole idea that a standard transmission is somehow the purest connection between man and machine and the ultimate indication of driving skill and manliness is getting really tedious. And the stereotypical comments on the subject read like they were authored be someone who either exclusively drives in BFE or is only 14.
First off, driving a stick in heavy stop and go traffic blows. Period. How do I know? Because I do it on a regular basis. Road construction, four way stops, waiting in line at a drive through start to wear on your left leg after awhile. Even if you think it’s “easy” it’s still not as easy as a slushbox. I have two cars: A stickshift Mustang GT and beater Civic with a slushbox…I end up splitting time on my 35 minute commute between the two cars, because one car is tiring and gas guzzling while the other is gutless and soul-sucking.
And it really shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that manuals are dying off in the U.S. To most buyers, getting a car with a stick is like getting a car without air conditioning. When was the last time you saw a new car without A/C or power windows? 20+ years ago, my dad’s commuter always had a standard. Not because he preferred a manual, but for the same reason none of our new family cars came with radios or even air conditioning for most of my youth: it was an extra cost option. Today’s buyers have much higher standards…I remember feeling like I was riding in a luxury car when my parents brought home a new Accord LX because it had a fold down rear armrest and factory stereo cassette; Now you can get a Civic with better equipment than an Acura offered 10 years ago.
Sure, manual transmissions are still the norm in Europe. But their standard of living isn’t the same as ours. At all. They scoff at our “high” gas prices. Home ownership, let alone a big new car every five years, just isn’t in the reach of the average person. And it’s always been that way. In postwar America, we embraced new technology like automatic transmissions almost immediately, whereas in Britain it took a decade just to make the switch to stereophonic vinyl records. It’s just a different culture. And in today’s Europe, opting for the manual can mean the difference between getting an entry BMW 318i or settling for a Mondeo.
Also don’t forget that, in the days when manuals were still common (or the only option) in America, they were mostly trash. Syncros and four speeds didn’t take hold until the ’60s and Detroit could have cared less if your shift linkage was vague or clutch was heavy. Drag racers quickly learned that a 727 Torqueflite or TH400 were at least as good as a four on the floor. And so it should come as no surprise that buyers who were willing to shell out the $3000+ for a big block muscle car also went ahead and ordered the automatic. Why do you think they make a big deal out of a “Factory four speed” cars at auto auctions? Because they’re rare.
I don’t manuals to go away, either. It hacks me off that Honda – long the gold standard for economical stick shifts – is limiting them to base models and (or overpriced Civic Sis and Accord EX-V6s), while Ford spits in the face of buyers (like me) by giving them a Mustang with a defective six speed. But can we drop the knee jerk “manuals are better” stuff, please?
Yeah, that’s right. Outside of America, everyone eats potatoes raw and rubs mud into their hair. A friend of mine went there once, and he told me…
@2Ronnies
+1
Just because they don’t commute to work in 3/4 ton dually pickups with unused (or no) trailer hitches and unscratched truck beds, doesn’t mean they have a lower standard of living.
“Home ownership, let alone a big new car every five years, just isn’t in the reach of the average person.”
Nor is it in the US. It was only because of easy credit that it was the norm, but that didn’t mean that all these “average” Americans could truly afford those new BMWs and McMansions.
I’ll still keep using my manual. I didn’t say it was better. I said it was better for me.
Have you been to Europe? Try going to Switzerland or Germany and then feeling sympathetic about their “low” standard of living. When my relatives come to visit, they scoff at our “matchstick” houses (“What do you mean all of your walls aren’t poured concrete with $80k worth of windows and doors?”). Yeah, gas is 1.5 to twice as expensive as it is in North America, but they earn easily twice as much (“What do you mean your minimum wage is less than $40k per year? This is third world!”) My experience, with the Swiss at least, is that they’re just as capable of affording gas as we are, they just choose not to, because they realize that dumping that kind of cash into having a huge engine is stupid. (125 MPH on the Autobahn is easy with a 2.0 L engine.) Likewise, they drive manuals because they prefer it, not because they’re forced to.
So, what’s wrong with manually equipped trucks? I tow with mine five days a week. If there is an issue with traction, I lean over, make the thunk to four wheel drive and I’m away. My manny Dodge certainly isn’t as smooth as an auto equipped Chevy but it’s so nice to be able to choose the gear that I want, when I want, and, as a bonus, get 4 miles more per gallon doing it.
So, what’s wrong with manually equipped trucks? I tow with mine five days a week.
They are not for the faint of heart.
That said, I have fond memories of my Army daze driving a 2 1/2 ton truck with a stick in the Saudi sand (Gulf War 1). It was a blast. We “trained” by getting stuck and towing one another out. Good times, except for the 100 degree heat…
Depends on the vehicle in question. If it’s big, I’d just as soon have an automatic, big being defined as an Econoline, or my old ’68 Riviera.
On the other hand, both of my Volvo 240s have sticks, and I wouldn’t have them any other way, and same goes for anything smaller than they are.
I had a 4-speed stickshift Tercel at one time, the poor man’s civic. The stick made it floggable and fun… an automatic would have made it intolerably dull and slow.
You -might- get me into a small car with an automatic if it was strictly used as a commuter appliance, but I can’t say I’d like it very much.
Would you all think less of me if I told you I never learned how to drive a stick? I just never had the opportunity when I was first learning to drive as my parents were very adverse to them. I just never had the opportunity to learn in the 20 years since. I would like to learn but from an outsiders view they just seem like more trouble than they are worth. Also, from the times I have ridden in cars with manuals, the ride was very jerky and unpleasant which may have just been the drivers fault.
At this point I am pushing 40 and just don’t see the point in learning as they are getting to be a rare breed in this country anyway. Being a one car household and with a wife that would probably refuse to learn, it just isn’t in the cards.
I wouldn’t think less of you. I learned at age 32 (I’m 34 now) after a divorce and dating a girl (now my fiance) that owns a manual trans Pontiac Vibe. It’s a bit humbling to be taught by a 25 year old woman (if your hung up on your masculinity) but it was a great bonding experience. She taught me because she wanted me to be able to drive her car in an emergency situation. Now she likes being driven around.
FYI the jerky rides you’ve had in manual trans cars are a testament to the driver, not the trans. I’m not as smooth as my lady is in shifting (or as smooth as her Father who has a CDL) but I’m getting better all the time and a few of her friends didn’t realize it was a manual car while I was driving. That’s a compliment.
Quite the opposite. I can respect that. If I didn’t know by now, I would bother either.
It’s the whiners complaining that they really are accomplished MT drivers, but pushing a clutch is just too much work that I think less of. That is a feeble excuse unless you really are physically feeble.
I remember my dad made me take driving lessons on a 5 speed Plymouth Reliant and I thought it was a cruel and embarrassing thing to put me through.
But I’m glad he made me do it and 24 years later I’ll teach anyone I know or who they know on how to drive a standard free of charge. The only caveat being they supply the car, no use sacrificing mine no matter how noble the cause.
So far I’ve taught my wife and my sister, and they both own and swear by manuals, albeit my wife was convinced she was not capable of doing it, but we got over that.
If you’re teaching someone I found you have to be patient and understanding or it will never work.
Your reluctance to try to learn certainly doesn’t make me think *more* of you. But if you don’t want to, and don’t need it, then who cares?
Sometimes it works out that way…what you learned on and grew up on. I learned to drive a stick before I owned my “own” first car…it was on a bastardized sort of tractor, with a non-synchro Warner truck transmission in it
(a Jacobsen unit owned by the golf course I worked at; it was sold to pull gang-mowers but had NO weight on its [I think] Dana truck rear end)
…but I had to learn. Quickly. Before lunch, or else I’d be spending the summer washing golf carts.
With that out of the way, and learning how to double-clutch, I chose as my first car, a manual…in a Super Beetle. As a kid, I sneered at people who didn’t know how to shift for themselves; now that I’ve been around the block a few times, I have an understanding how irrelevant it all is.
Some people learn and like it. Some learn and don’t. Some don’t learn, either because they don’t want to or because of below-the-surface fear of it. And a lot depends on WHEN it is you learn…a middle-aged driver facing a stick for the first time, is gonna see it as a nuisance and a chore. A kid will see it as a challenge and a plaything.
I wonder, though…if there’s some correlation between exposure to stick-shift driving and auto enthusiasm?
It’s not the ‘laziness factor’ that makes an auto preferable for urban/city driving, a manual clutch has very little ability to shed the heat generated from multiple stop-creep-stop cycles (the bellhousing has almost no ventilation). Get stuck in 45 mins. or so of this type of traffic, and the clutch disk, pressure plate, and flywheel can get very hot – an torque converter in auto just sheds this heat via the fluid to the coolant and/or air. With a manual in gridlock, eventually, the clutch is going to get too hot, which will shorten its life (and have you checked out the cost of replacing a clutch lately?)
You’re doing it wrong.
No I haven’t looked at the cost of replacing a clutch, because I never replaced one, and neither have any of my 4 closest MT driving friends. Including one who went 200 000 miles on the original.
Unless you are riding the clutch, using it to hold you on hills, using excess slip or otherwise abusing it, they can last the life of a car these days.
I just splurged on a beat up old Ranger. It has a fairly decent 5 spd in it. The clutch is shot and I ‘ve been advised that I should replace the slave cylinder whilst the trans is out. This is a 4th vehicle, it will never be used for commuting. My commute was a 30 mile stall and crawl to and from Boston. Rowing a 4 spd bug was OK. But the 4 spd automagic in my 528es was waaaay better. Manual guys, whats cheaper to replace, brakes or clutches? The 4HP22 was very depemdable I changed the ATF and the filter 3 times in 200kmiles. At 350k miles , the trans is fine.
Manual guys, whats cheaper to replace, brakes or clutches?
Andy D, I’m not sure yet. My truck is only 9 years old and has 150k miles on it. When I have to change the brakes or clutch I’ll let you know. Yes, I drive a 1/2-ton truck with a manual every day and have never changed the brakes or the clutch. At my last state inspection last month the shop said I’d need new brakes to pass inspection next year. I don’t know if that’s going by their typical customers’ brake wear or the fact that my rotors have ridges around the OD where the pads don’t hit big enough to see through the alloys from 20′ away, but they still work really well.
For an econocar, I’d want a stick. They’re miserable without one, traffic be damned.
But for something with a decent engine, I’d go another way. Despite fantasies of a stick-shift sports car, I ultimately preferred and bought a current-gen Maxima with a CVT. There’s something immensely gratifying about getting up to speed on a wave of thrust. Watching (or worse, feeling and hearing in non-luxury cars) the revs rise and fall with a conventional automatic now seems archaic.
This is not the experience most people will have. The CVT in the 4-cylinder Legacy is a soul-sucking piece of crap. The one in the 4-cylinder Altima, sluggish to respond and merely adequate. It’s such a pity that few people will get to see what they’re supposed to be like.
I don’t get why a debate is necessary on this topic. Some will like one, some will like the other, and some will appreciate both. Neither is “better” than the other.
My commute for the past 8 months has been ~182m round-trip, with significant heavy traffic, and I recently bought a well-equipped, lightly-used Civic EX, w/ 5MT. I cannot drive a typical automatic without the rage boiling up from within, even in heavy traffic (where, despite what I seem to be reading, driving a manual is really *not that hard*.) My knees are OK and I have no problem putting in a little effort to be rewarded with a directly controllable mechanical connection to the wheels.
Others have no problem giving up that element of control in exchange for not having to focus on one more thing while driving, or to save wear & tear on their joints.
Both of these views are legitimate, and if one seeks a manual there is no shortage of options. Unless you want AWD as well.
My wife and I have been stickheads forever. She got pregnant six months ago; the manual RSX-S combined with DC traffic was really wearing on her.
I’ve been a Road & Track reader forever, and it’s been interesting to watch the gradual editorial shift from “this terrible slush box is an insult to the marque” to “darned if I could shift as fast and smooth as the auto does.”
The good automatics were confined to the very high-end cars for awhile, but the improvement in auto boxes is drifting down into the affordable range. We sold the RSX-S for great money, and for wifey’s commute bought a new TSX Sport Wagon with a slush box and paddle shifters. Darned if the auto isn’t pretty good. And of course the paddle shifters are there when you get bored, and work great—but the automatic really is brilliant.
Lucky me. My daily commute is run on an 27 speed manual… road bicycle… here in the rainy northeast. and in the snow it is an 18 speed bicycle unless the snow is good enough to ski in to work. I live closer than the perimeter lots i would be eligible to park in. so… my 1st car was a 25 y.o. 3 on the tree. when I met my future wife she had a stick in her topaz. then we got a mazda 626 with a 5speed and cruise control! first time I had seen that combo.
moved on to a subaru wagon auto and a mazda 5sp 4wd truck. that was the PERFECT car to teach my daughter the joys of a standard trans. seasonal highways (dirt roads) and low range. you can get the hang of shifting without the fuss of stalling. she was ready for the MINI Cooper that came a month before she turned 16. she took her road test in it ..standard. bought her own mark IV jetta. had to be a stick. taught her friends and boyfriend how to drive stick. we all like the kool-aid. driving in a parade or in a traffic jam with a stick sucks, but surface streets and a capable nav. system that redirects from congested routes can still make a clutch a passable daily option for city living enthusiasts.
I reently bought my elderly cousin’s 24 y.o. escort wagon. it is the auto that convinced me to never drive a USA auto econobox 20+ years ago. it is only slightly less awful than i remembered. and that is probably because of fuel injection vs carb.
but… rental dodge caravans with a 6sp auto are sweet US automatics to drive. in 2010/11.
My daily driver is a Ford Focus ZX3. It’s a manual. I live in the eastern suburbs of Pittsburgh, PA where we have the joys of the Parkway East and Squirrel Hill tunnel. What I’ve found is that – driving a manual sucked for a while until I got creative. Leaving bigger gaps so that I don’t have to clutch so much, shifting the time I leave the house. If I leave my house at 0600 instead of 0630, I don’t end up coming to a complete stop in traffic. So I leave the house earlier, get to the office earlier and have time to enjoy a bagel and coffee while settling into the day. If I didn’t drive a manual – I probably wouldn’t have experimented and found this way to a more relaxed start to my work day.
It’s my second focus, the first one was a manual as well. When we bought the current one – my wife wanted me to get an automatic – so I gave it a try. All it took was one test drive to tell me that I didn’t want to live with that on a daily basis. I can cope with an automatic if the engine has enough torque, but for what I can afford new – I’ll get the stick and niceties instead of the automatic. My wife’s beetle has an automatic – but it seems well suited to the 2.5l five banger – and it makes her happy – so I’ll let that one slide.
Frankly, with all the wonderful twisty, windy, hilly roads here in Western PA, I’m glad I got the manual transmission – the smiles there make up for the parkway east.
i have never owned a car with auto, and i never will.
I have driven some but they are just appliances, just
like a washing machine.
Superb job on stirring up a hornet’s nest there Steven. I am glad there is still a lot of passion about this topic. I learned to drive a manual shift on a John Deere tractor at age 14 and have preferred them ever since. However I like cars of all types and like to think I can drive just about anything I am interested in. I have two daughters and both were taught to drive on our worn out Accord with a manual. The oldest never got the hang of it and never will, the youngest caught on after about one hour of instruction and has never looked back. People are different and I am hopeful that cars in general don’t slide into the abyss of boredom and that we will have interesting choices in the future.
As a young guy in his 20’s, I truly enjoy driving a stick shift. I don’t have anything against automatics, however, as all three cars I’ve owned have been automatics.
Even in traffic, I find driving a stick shift enjoyable..for the most part. Unfortunately, I have a bad knee, and of course it is my left knee. To get around this, though, I just put the car in neutral at stop lights. It can become a problem when I’m in the Piedmont, since the stick shifts I drive when I’m there tend to be vehicles with a foot parking brake or a hand lever which makes utilizing the parking brake to take off difficult.
I learned to drive a stick shift on a 2000 Ford Mustang GT, which was relatively fun to drive. I say relatively because I think I drove it twice without my father in the car, and only one of those times I was by myself. I used to borrow my best friend’s dad 1984 Dodge Ram, which was a very interesting vehicle to drive given its condition. The pressure plates were almost gone and low compression in 3rd gear made trips through the rolling foothills of southern Virginia quite interesting.
Automatics aren’t always inferior to stick shift, though. My first car was a 1993 Honda Accord LX automatic and my friend’s mom had an Accord LX stick shift of the same vintage. They were even built during the same month, believe it or not. Both cars were a blast to drive. Especially since the Accord, as with my Integra, have the ability to pick your gear, sort of. You can start the automatic Accord and the Integra in first or second gear, and you can basically pick your gear and shift point through all four, though you can only change the shift point for fourth if you’re revving high. At any low RPM it stays in 3rd until the ECU decides it’s time to shift. The stick shift Accord was a blast to drive, but it didn’t trump my automatic.
When I got my Integra, I really wanted a stick shift. As a matter of fact, I wanted a stick shift, I wanted a sedan, and I didn’t want leather. I ended up with a two door, automatic, with leather (but you don’t complain when you get a 10 year old Honda with 48,000 miles!). During my senior year of college, however, my knee got REALLY bad. To the point of me limping so badly that my teacher excused me from class to go to the heath care center because he saw me actually hobbling into the classroom. If I had a stick shift then, I’d have been screwed and unable to drive.
Realastically, because of my knee, I don’t know that I could have a stick shift as my only vehicle (as many people have said). However, if I have the option, I’ll buy a stick shift when I can get another vehicle and keep the Integra as a back-up for when my knee acts up. Even though it’s low to the ground, I can at least hoist myself out of it. I don’t think it would be an American stick. The Mustang and Ram I drove have been fairly unmomentous. I loved driving the Mustang because the clutch and shifter were tight, but it was no more fun than the 1993 Accord, 86 Mazda B2000, or even the 97 Jetta and 80 Mercedes 240D. Actually, the Mercedes is a blast to drive even with it’s low horsepower.
TL;DR: Manuals rock, but with my bad knee I drive an automatic and don’t think it’s bad either. Plus, I know how to control the automatic to make it halfway like a stick…at least to get some extra torque.
I was diagnosed with osteo-arthritis in my knees at the age of 19.
My orthopedist reccommended that I never use a manual transmission, so I don’t.
That sucks, man. I have a tear in the cartilage that was diagnosed at age 21.
With the tear in the cartilage, it’s kind of a catch-22. Holding a clutch at a stop light is a bitch, but going for long drives in an automatic can be just as bad, but not always.
I drive a manual, a 5spd equipped 1992 Ford Ranger 2WD and once I realized, again how much fun it is to let it rev to around 4Krpm before dropping it into the next gear, driving a manual became fun again.
I say this as I drive the commute across Lake Washington via I-90 and coming home, it’s stop and go traffic and that means crawling along at 15mph, which I CAN do with the clutch engaged no problem, but get below that speed wise, I have to then hold in the clutch or the truck bucks badly due to too low of rpm and that’s in either 1st or 2nd gear, doesn’t matter but 2nd tends to be preferred however for this task.
That said, I’ve learned a few tricks to minimize my needing to hold the clutch in to keep it from bucking has helped the commute as the clutch in this thing is hydraulic but on the heavy-ish side even if it’s easy to engage and is actually a joy to use despite the NOT so smooth shifting of a very high mileage manual tranny. :-)
If I CAN swing for it, the Fiat 500 with the manual will be my next car and it has a VERY light clutch that is also easy to manipulate, which should make the commute much easier when needing to shift.
I have personally proven invalid most of the quantative arguments of why manuals are better. A manual is ONLY better in the qualatative “enthusiast” camp.
First, I always hear people exclaim “manuals get better gas mileage!” Yes and no. That spread is mighty thin with modern 6+ speed autos. Also problem is, if you drive a manual for gas mileage you aren’t driving it like an enthusiast and hence, what’s the point unless you are a hypermiler.
Second is that “manuals don’t break.” Excuse me? I’ve put more than a couple auto trannies past 200,000 miles (including an Ford AXOD) with only standard tranny service every 50k miles. Everyone I know that daily drives a manual has put at least one new clutch in before that kind of mileage. Sure, a good clutch can outlast 200k miles, but again, not if you are driving it as an enthusiast.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a good manual tranny on some hills and curves in the country. My “weekend” car will always have a manual, for “the enthusiast in me.” For the non-enthusiast driver I just cannot find any good reason to say a manual is better…and when I’m commuting to work I’m going from point A to B and not an enthusiast.
A clutch is a wear part. My brakes are not “broken” when they need new pads, this is expected behavior. They are “broken” if, e.g., the caliper is leaking fluid.
Likewise, a manual transmission that needs a new clutch (and throwout bearing) is no more broken than an automatic that needs a fluid change.
Personally proven = anecdote.
Me an my 4 best friends that I have known since high school are all manual drivers, none of us has ever replaced a clutch. That is in a collective 80+ years of driving. So our anecdotes place clutches as being quite robust if they aren’t abused. My current car has had three front brake jobs and no clutch work. Even if I did need a clutch, it is relatively inexpensive, once in the life of your car type thing. But I know many people with expensive AT repairs and outright replacements, including my Moms for several thousand dollars. So how are we doing in the battle of the anecdotes?
Driving enthusiast does not equal boy racer. I love cars, and I love the feel of driving manual, that doesn’t mean I am doing 5000 drop clutch starts. Even with spirited driving, there is no need to abuse the clutch, you don’t give it full throttle while you are still engaging the clutch. Once your foot is off the clutch, then you can hammer down without any clutch wear.
Manual are unquestionable more efficient than a slushbox. Manufacturers attempt to compensate by giving ATs much taller gear ratios for highway cruising, but city MPG is pretty much always better with a MT.
MT are still more efficient than man DSG as they are wet clutch designs with more drag.
Other than the clutch. A MT is by far the the most mechanical robust transmission, except for possible the Current Prius, which doesn’t really have a transmission, just orbital gear power combiner.
MTs have the best intersection of efficiency/robustness/control and they bring joy to many.
Me an my 4 best friends that I have known since high school are all manual drivers, none of us has ever replaced a clutch.
A lot of that depends on the CAR. I had never smoked a clutch, either…until I was the not-so-proud owner of a lightly-used Yugo (there were no other kinds; heavily-used Yugos were quickly parked in recycling yards).
With ten thousand miles on it, a thousand put on by me…the Yugo clutch went…crossing the Bonneville salt flats on a road trip through Utah. That’s right…it went out, in the desert, on the flats, just like that. Started slipping…on the highway; no shifting involved…I went down to 3rd; started to have to feather the throttle…by the time I reached Vegas, it would only move in 2nd.
Design is a big part of clutch life.
Driving enthusiast does not equal boy racer. I love cars, and I love the feel of driving manual, that doesn’t mean I am doing 5000 drop clutch starts.
I love driving a manual as well and do not consider myself a boy racer. Nothing beats hills and twists where you can row through the gears up and down and really feel the road.
My argument boils down to the fact that manuals aren’t really available on mainstream vehicles. They are on stripper econoboxes and “sporty” cars. All the MT vehicles I see around town are being driven hard unless they are stuck in traffic. Hey, if I had a Bimmer on lease I’d pound the shit out of it too, but the fact remains that most MT drivers aren’t babying the clutch.
My experience might be anecdotal, but I did say things like MPG was a yes/no argument. Maybe I just don’t have the dicipline to drive a MT like grandma and need the nanny of an auto to keep me from being a boy racer. After all, when the MT car comes out of the garage I do have fun with it.
75% of men believe that his penis is larger than the average.
My guesstimate is that 90% of manual transmission driver believer he/she can driver better (as in acceleration, fuel, handling) with the stick over a 6-speed auto.
I mean, it’s just like Hummer H2, it doesn’t do you any real good, unless you are an elite race driver. But it will make you feel good, as if it’s a penis extension.
Your guesstimate is nonsense.
If it is against a slushbox, almost anyone who can drive MT will get better (city) fuel economy and better performance.
If it is against a DSG almost everyone will get better performance from the DSG. But you would still likely get better fuel economy from a MT if the DSG has a wet clutch.
Again even for elite race drivers, DSGs shift faster, so that characterization is wrong as well.
In short your post is about as wrong as humanly possible. Congrats.
The wife drove a Fiat 500 with the stick while in Europe recently. She was fearful at first because her usual car (’05 xB Auto) had lulled her into “needing” an auto for hills, etc…
She was fine. Less than a day later, she texted to say she wished her xB had the manual tranny.
It amuses me (although at the same time it doesn’t surprise me) how much arrogance and alleged superiority is exherted by so many “manual enthusiasts” here and I join plenty of commenters above who are humored by those almost borderline troll-like posts.
Now where do I stand on the issue.. I am in my mid 20-s, have driven stick all my life. Learned to drive on manual 94 Golf, my first car was manual a 93 Audi 90 (still miss it badly) and for the last few years I’ve been driving 04 Mazda6 with a stick (and being a very heavy and underpowered car it ain’t “fun” with or without stick shift unfortunately).
While I do obviously prefer manual cars, I do admire the technological advance seen in recent decade in auto trannies. While I stayed as far away as possible from owning/driving automatic cars in the beginning of my driving days, now I wouldn’t have a problem switching over to a GOOD (and I can’t stress this enough) contemporary auto-equipped car. In fact that’s exactly what I am considering as I am about to replace my Mazda within a year’s time. Upcoming Kia Rio is in my sights and judging by the new Accent its auto gearbox is not bad (I love smaller cars, so I can’t help it) and their 1.6 engine is more than adequate.
However the above has to be qualified with a disclosure that I live in Canada and in close proximity to GTA with painful experience of horrible stop-go highway traffic (rush hour city traffic being even worse) on my past daily commutes from Toronto to Hamilton spending 3+ hours in traffic per day. I don’t do that any more, but experiences like this do come with complementary reconsideration of stick-shift driving (and don’t you dare smartassing me that “I am doing it wrong”). If I was not living in or near one of the worst perpetual traffic jams in the world and if there weren’t traffic lights/stop signs on every inch of the road, then there would be definitely much less reasons for me going from stick to auto other than my sports-injured knees and back.
Having said that, the biggest concern that I do have with moving to auto is snow. For me the only real fun in driving comes when it snows hard and the white stuff covers the asphalt good and proper. Then I am endlessly happy to be able to choose my own gears and throw the car around just a bit while everyone around seems all of the sudden incapable of going above 20 km/h.. Putting fun aside though, I do believe that it is also much safer to be driving manual in extreme snow conditions by keeping full control over gears/revs unless AWD is in place. Of course I always put good winter tires on my car, so hopefully that together with lower gear mode should rectify my concerns over safety.
Anyway, that’s my 5 cents for y’all.
Honestly, I couldn’t care less about the MT/AT debate. Each has its own benefits & drawbacks.
Personally, I find all the generalities and stereotypes entertaining at best, but more likely just ignorant. I also think there’s a difference between being an enthusiest and a snob.
I did a 45 minute stop-and-go commute for 6-7 months out of the year with my avatar, a Suzuki TL1000S. Of course it was a manual. It also had a first gear so tall that slipping the clutch until 20 MPH was mandatary. And a clutch spring to handle 125 horsepower with a cable-operated hand lever got hard to hold when your gloves were soaking wet in near-freezing weather. I still wouldn’t have taken an automatic car over it, though; especially when working in a cubicle, you need something to make you feel alive.
In 30 years of driving manuals, I never cooked a clutch – until recently. Most of these cars went well over 200K on the original clutch, so it’s not the driving style. The only that changed on this Honda that I’ve owned since new is my commute, due to a new job. Frequent accidents and construction bring rush hour traffic to a crawl all too often. I can drive it all day long at 5-15 MPH and never touch the clutch; but when traffic comes to a grinding halt, and you move 20 ft., stop, and move 20 ft. again, there’s no way to avoid cycling the clutch. Even with minimizing slip as much as possible when starting out, when you have to do this repeatedly for a half hour or so, the clutch suffers (especially if you got stuck on an uphill grade when traffic stopped). Yes, I love manuals, and for almost every situation short of towing and urban traffic, they can’t be beat. But since we all don’t live in the countryside with beautiful, winding roads, automatics have a significant presence in the market for a very good reason.
The enthusiasm for MTs here matches those (including myself) who criticized VW’s newly decontented Jetta. Jetta sales skyrocketed as a result of this effort. Likewise, MTs comprise a very small percentage of US car sales. TTAC’s B&B don’t seem to reflect the market.
Having said that, my MT experiences have been mixed. I like paying less to buy and maintain them, and driving them can be fun. But driving a MT in traffic is awful.
Of the 7 personal cars I’ve owned (not for the whole family), 5 have been MTs. Fortunately, my xB1 doesn’t give me knee trouble like my 85 LeBaron GTS MT did. However, my next car will almost certainly be an AT due to family and health reasons.
I have personally driven a 99 Cavalier (3spd Auto, 2.2L) as my commuter car for almost a year, and sold that for an 02 Cavalier (5spd Manual, 2.4L) last year and despite the engine differences (because the engines are two completely different animals), driving a manual is the best choice I’ve ever made when buying a new car. It’s so much more fun, I love being in control of what gear I’m in instead of trying to figure out how to press the gas pedal to trick that car into the gear I want. Not to mention that I’m more attentive when driving stick too, it’s always in the back of my mind what gear I’m in. For a college student, young adult or teenager that does nothing more but drives to parties on friday summer nights and commutes to his crappy job, I’d take a Stick-Shift every time. I’ll take an Automatic when I have kids or when I’m older.
Between this blogpost and the one about electronic nannies, it is clear that car guys are definitely the most smug group of drivers out there. Your car has ABS and TC? You clearly can’t drive. Your car has an AT? You are a hazard on the road!
I bought my first automatic last year after 12 years of owning 4 different stick shifts (my wife drives a stick, so I still drive MT when we take her car*). I get bored and inattentive at the exact same places in my AT as I did my MTs: long, boring drives up and down the interstate. My 6MT GTI humming along at 70mph on the interstate didn’t keep me engaged any more than my 5AT 4Runner does. Boring roads are boring. I’ll still pick a manual transmission when available, which wasn’t available with my 4Runner, but I completely understand why many people prefer an autobox. If I had to deal with traffic the way my brother does, I’d likely be in a hybrid instead of the 5MT Outback turbo that he’s currently hating due to the insane traffic and 21mpg.
* She does jokingly give me heck about her having the only stickshift in our household. I remind her that she’d never have bought a stick if I hadn’t taught her to drive my Impreza.
Every car I’ve ever owned has been a stick and I’ve never had an issue with it driving up and down hills with lots of traffic. Sorry, I just don’t buy the traffic excuse. It’s really not that hard.
My current commuter, yes, in Los Angeles area traffic, is a manual transmission 2010 Honda Fit. I love it. The low-effort shifter and clutch, aggressive gearing and long-stroke torquey I-vetec engine, make it a relative joy in traffic. The problem for the automakers is that I am a 58 year old car enthusiast, not exactly the target market demographic. I absolutely hated driving the more age-appropriate Camry. I actually caught myself dozing off in afternoon traffic.
I’ve been driving for 37 years, and up until the last ten, never owned a vehicle with an automatic. So, I’m well familiar with both.
I vote for the slushbox. After all these years, the novelty of working a gear lever has gone. And MOST cars today, as noted, have LOUSY shift linkage…some clutches are light and easy, but many are grabby or have long travel, and some are too heavy to justify. Front-wheel-drive layouts don’t lend themselves to precise shifter linkages.
A slushbox in traffic…is a joy; or at least a balm. In a traffic jam, not only does your mind tend to wander…you NEED it to, to keep you from whipping out a Glock or a tire-iron and pounding the closest idiot (you have a large choice) into goo. Put the mind in Quaalude, crank up the MP3…and accept what you cannot change.
That said…my newer car, a Toyota, has a manual. I also run an oldish Dodge van…with an auto. Guess which one I’d prefer driving in traffic? Where I sit up high, in relative quiet…and let the logic-module do the thinking as I drift in and out of consciousness. It goes a long way towards justifying the 15-mpg.
Like many people posting here, I’ve always had a manual. It’s annoying to drive in stop and go traffic, but fortunately I don’t have a difficult commute, and the fun driving overall outweighs the occasional stops in traffic.
That being said, I’ve got no philosophical or macho objection to the AT. When I rent one it’s fine for the job, just not as much fun to drive.
The choice of MT is shrinking so much that I expect my next car will have some sort of automatic. My current ride is a BMW X3 which I really enjoy, but the latest model which went on sale this year is AT only (in the US). If I want to get another X3, it will have to be an automatic. There really isn’t another crossover of that size and power that has an MT, the only remaining ones of any type I can still find with MT are the Subaru Forester (less power) and the Porsche Cayenne (larger size).
Hopefully in 6 – 10 years when I’m looking to replace, the DCT transmissions will be more widespread, I think I’ll be fine with that. Or if fuel prices are a lot higher, I’ll be looking in the small car segment where hopefully there will always be a few MT’s left.
I drive a BMW with a clutch but if I had to purchase an economy car, I’d still stick with a clutch. Make mine an Elantra or a base Golf – the reliable one with the 2.5 liter Five that sounds like an old Audi 4000 Quattro when you open up the exhaust.
After reading most of this thread, it is really depressing, not that people drive less MT, but the level of whiny excuse making.
90% of sales are automatic. Whenever the topic comes up with an AT driver IRL, I find the vast majority never learned, or learned but bought an AT car first and never really became comfortable. No excuses no densiveness. Just as it should be. I have no disdain for them. They are just describing the reality. AT is what they know and it works for them. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Oddly in this discussion, I have only seen a tiny minority of such replies.
Instead what the majority of non-MT drivers here proclaim total MT proficiency, with the “it’s too much work” excuse to drive MT in traffic.
I do have massive disdain for that excuse. Too much work? If you are physically feeble that might be an acceptable answer. I am middle aged, and I have a bad left knee, and constant bursitis in my left hip. That bothers me when hiking down steep rocky terrain or doing 45 minutes of running, but pushing a clutch? What exactly is the massive increase work load in Stop n Go when you are doing brake,throttle,brake,throttle, to add clutch presses to that. Your right leg is already doing double duty and your left is sitting there doing nothing… It isn’t even enough work to count as mild exercise.
Someone here mentioned that we don’t manually roll up our windows anymore. Guess what? My car has manual roll up windows as well. Would that be too much work as well?
Again, I don’t look down on people who don’t drive MT, but really I do look down on whiny excuse makers. You don’t have to make excuses, drive what you want.
Just stop with silly, driving in traffic is too much work whine. I really don’t want to know that you are such as wuss that pushing the clutch is too much work for you.
What next? Chewing food too much work, drive through too much effort to get food. So we need little robot jets to deliver liquid food right into your hand?
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6029/flydrink.jpg
I do have massive disdain for that excuse.
I have no idea why this has you so worked up. And I say that as a guy who drives a 6-speed manual.
No one likes a whiner. Kinda like Amerikans, the greatest whiners in the world. lolz
eldard, your comments here are becoming embarrassing to native Europeans like myself. You are making it appear that all non-Americans are under educated. Poking fun at other cultures only reveals one’s own insecurities and immaturity, and unfortunately stereotyping can also develop into a form of racism which has not been healthy lately in both the EU and America.
Many stereotypes have some basis in truth.
Of course, but that’s not the point. The point is why do you keep posting these sorts of comments? What is your goal? I was born in Sèvres (suburb of Paris) but have worked in the US for quite a while now. My wife is Danish. I know all the stereotypes of both Americans and Europeans. But I don’t go onto to EU websites and make jokes about Germans or Norwegians. Why should I? To make myself feel good? As I said you’re more of an embarrassment to native Europeans acting this way, as we are all above this kind of behavior that is reserved for schoolchildren. Maybe act classy and try to represent your nationality proudly instead, yes?
I posted the following on a conspiracy forum just 3 days ago:
“Not anymore. They’ve become worse. They are lawsuit-happy, whining, politically-correct, self-entitled fatasses who give more importance to delicious animals than to their fellow humans. Being from a former American colony I used to look up to them, admire them and (wanted to) become like them. Now I just hate them with a passion HATE HATEHATEHATEHATEHATEHATE!!!”
Does that answer your question?
Yes, it does answer my question, thank you. As a child I was once bitten by a dog. It took a long time for me to get over my fear of all dogs. I hope that you too, can eventually transcend your own fears so that the hatred does not consume you. When you take the effort to hate someone, you have given them power over you. Hatred is fear based and it is non-productive. In the meantime, this dialogue is really out of context for a car website. Cheers.
Thanks, Yoda! I do not fear them. If anything I fear for them. They are so gonna get it in the ass as their country (and the whole Western world except for Germanic Europe minus the UK) is finally supplanted. But then again they will emerge unscathed with the coming global food shortages. Their fat is gonna sustain them during these trying times. :)