TTAC Commentator Astigmatism writes:
Dear TTAC,
My wife wants to replace her 275,000-mile 1999 RX300. Its sins, in order: fuel economy (15-17mpgs at this stage in ordinary driving); brakes that don’t inspire confidence (we’ve had the fronts completely replaced, and the rears and ABS checked multiple times, but it still pumps and grinds like crazy coming to a full stop); and the general feeling of looseness in a high-mileage SUV (not to mention rust spots, tears in the leather, etc., etc.). She’s starting school in the fall, about 15 miles away through city traffic, and my hope was to have a replacement by then if possible.
She really wants something with much, much better mileage (read: 40+), for environmental reasons. Unfortunately, this comes at a time of $4 gas (yes, this is being published VERY late – SM), which means that used hybrids are commanding utterly stupid prices. She’s not the slightest bit a car person, so driving enjoyment isn’t a priority, but I’d like her to be in something reasonably safe and not Gen-1 Insight impractical. I’d also like to keep this south of $20k if possible. Current thoughts are a 2008ish CPO Civic Hybrid (I’m guessing the Prius will be considerably more expensive and, even with snow tires, more useless in the winter) and just eating the current market mark-up. Is there a better idea? Any guesses on how long it will take to wait out the current combination of sky-high used Japanese and hybrid prices?
Am I an idiot for even thinking about this right now?
Steve answers:
The Gen 1 Insight is impractical? I’ll have you know that the first Insight was absolute perfection incarnate as a daily driver AND as a mobile office. I’ve used one for over 2 years and it’s given me 55 mpg and a perfect space for handling my light paperwork.
Then again, I am only one person. You need to invest for the long haul. Since your wife is a non-enthusiast and isn’t commuting that much I would suggest…
A cash vehicle for $5000.
Follow my process for buying a used car ( 1 2 3 4) and do yourself a favor. Don’t even remotely believe that the brand will have the greatest impact on the longevity of the vehicle. When it comes to an older used car, it’s the owner that makes all the difference. Find something she’s comfortable with… preferably with four doors if the two of you plan on having kids in the future.
Get a nice sedan and plan on keeping it for five years. She won’t need more than that.
Sajeev answers:
“Idiot” is a relative term, my good man. Honestly, you’d be a fool to buy your wife a cash vehicle as per Steve’s advice. Not because Steve is a fool, I love him to death. But this time, I ain’t agreeing with him no matter how many Panthers he saves from less scrupulous dealers that might sell a precious beast to the wrong buyer.
You need a late model sedan, on the small side. That means Civic, Corolla, Focus, Sentra, Cobalt, etc. Hybrids? Not a chance. CPOs? Dream on, this isn’t an Audi.
From what I’ve seen on the CPO side versus New Car incentive side, you are far better off buying new instead of used. A straight up used vehicle is worth considering, especially if you find a desperate soul on Craigslist with a super clean 2009 Civic and a burning need to get more than trade-in money for it…but how often does that really happen? Not often enough.
You can get plenty of new cars for less than 20k, be it Fiesta or Corolla or whatever other cheery name you wish to choose. As someone who is used to a Lexus, I’d probably avoid the odd (Civic) and maybe even the unfamiliar (Cruze?) for something more Corolla like. The cash on the hood ($1000 in my neck of the woods for a Corolla) is good, but its usually better outside of Honda and Toyota land. Mileage is 40MPG, if you really try hard enough. Overall you will have more useful years of life than any used vehicle, never need to deal with the hybrid premium. Long term value FTW!
Spending a lot of money to save money on gas is a non-starter. If the inner enviromentalist in you wants to feel like you’re doing your part then by all means. But teh 5-10K range of used cars 3 years old is a good place to start. I see you put 300K on the SUV so you’re not a car flipper and that means you will run said used car into the ground.
Best service I ever got from a car was a 4000 dollar used car that I drove 11 years and 120K.
5k cars that are 3 years old? Like what?
Aveos. I wouldn’t put an enemy in one, let alone my wife and kid, but I have seen them around $5k for examples that are 3 years used.
True. Back after the first Arab oil embargo, my father’s friend, Tom Schelling, who would go on to win the 2005 Nobel Prize in economics, traded his big ol’ car for a Pinto. AFter the fact, unfortunately for Tom, my father suggested he do the cost-benefit analysis.
I have you beat on used car value. My ’99 Accord 5-speed, the subject of yesterday’s piston slap, cost me $5,500 in ’04.I’ve put 133k on it. I will be hitting 200k on Saturday.
From what I’ve seen on the CPO side versus New Car incentive side, you are far better off buying new instead of used.
How long can the market continue to be this irrational?
+1. The math is just ridiculously close right now, as long as you are planning to keep it for a long time!
I have literally seen the resale value of my car increase over the last year or so by $1-2k depending on the source. Unreal. There really is not much reason to buy gently used.
I’m thinking it’s mostly driven by the fact that automotive conventional wisdom changes so slowly. So, you have a bunch of buyers who aren’t even aware that a 3 yo CPO Accord is nearly the same prices as new after rebates. They were told that used cars are the responsible choice and it will be a while before they even think to look at a new car.
Financing often favors the new vs. used, if that route is chosen.
We were thinking about getting a used Mini for my wife. When ’07s were going for over $20k at dealers with 40k miles, we decided to spend a few thousand dollars more (cash buyers) and get a brand new ’12, built to order. No regrets. This car market is insane.
When I search auto trader I am amazed by the number of Focus and Cobalt built with leather seats. (Just sayin’…)
I’ve clocked 20k miles in my 2010 Cobalt already. It’s not the prettiest of cars, but it was dirt cheap. After a year of driving nothing has come loose or started to rattle, it’s comfortable enough, and buying a relatively new, used example with all mod-cons won’t set you back much more than $9-$13k (looking at Vancouver BC prices).
Out on the freeway the gas mileage is pretty reasonable (32+ mpg), but around town it can be quite bad (20+ mpg). Admittedly I drive like a hoon, so your wife could get better MPG than me.
Your wife will be going from a luxury SUV and as much as I don’t like them the Lexus RX is the best to compact car getting 40 MPG econobox.
Are you, or more importantly is she, willing to take this big step down in NVH? I know from experience with a family member the Prius and the crazy good gas milage gets old when comfort and noise eventually strikes a nerve.
As much as Sajeev makes sense, I have to agree with Steve and I would persuade her to get a low cost super comfortable and safe car.
willing to take this big step down in NVH?
A Focus is quieter and smoother riding than a ’99 RX by quite a bit. Take a test drive it’s quite remarkable.
This is truth. In addition to the luxury appointments, the higher driving position is something many female ( males, too) value. Making the transition from an RX to an economy car is a recipe for resentment and Astigmatism will end up driving it. I would look into a loaded CPO Escape Hybrid. 40 MPG and luxury are not currently compatible goals, particularly with a 20k spending limit, so a nicely appointed Escape would be a decent compromise. Other alternatives would be a top of the line Tiguan or Rogue, used.
The ’03-’08 Corolla doesn’t have a sporty bone in its body, but for a non-enthusiast, it’s a great choice. Quiet, reliable, efficient, and pretty comfortable to drive. I had a couple as rentals.
And for the average non-enthusiast and/or non-tinkerer, reliability is high on the list of desirable characteristics in any car. Most such people don’t want to change flat tires, look under the hood, execute elaborate cold-start procedures, tug on loose wires below the dash, etc. Corollas are tough to beat in the reliability department.
For what its worth, a quick search on autos.aol.com yeilded 16 Prius with under 30,000 miles in the price range of $12,500 to $16,000. Given that these cars are roomy, ultra reliable, and will get a true 45+ mpg I would say this is a good option for the intended use. And a side benefit, very few of them have been raced…
You sure they haven’t been raced??? You better ask Murilee. Or just check the picture carefully to see if the car has moose antenna or some other weird stuff going on.
You can get a great deal on a used Prius, especially as fuel prices are getting near $3 again. Also, I have a feeling you’ll see alot of them go through auctions as the carpool advantages in California peter-out. Many people bought them for that reason alone, and will sell them for whatever else will get them a free ride (alone) in the diamond lanes. I hate to say it, but I’ve added 07-09 Prius to my list of potential replacements for our 98 3.2TL. The key is that this vehicle will be driven by my wife around town to work and to school/preschool for the 2 boys, and I will get my Outback (manual) back. However, I’d like some cargo room in case we decided to use that vehicle for weekend trips somewhere.
I think the stigma of being a “pious” driver is subsiding now that the Leaf and Volt are out with other vehicles to follow.
Also on our list of consideration is a new Focus hatchback (similiar in room except for rear seat legroom) and Impreza hatchback. They are more enjoyable to drive, get great mileage, and should be reliable. But the Prius has proved many wrong with it’s reliability. I’ve never owned a Toyota either, and really didn’t think I’d ever want to.
“I think the stigma of being a “pious” driver is subsiding now…”
There has never been a stigma, Prius, pious, or otherwise. Unless you take South Park more seriously than it deserves, that is.
I say this having owned my Gen II for nearly 8 years now. Never a serious problem, neither with the car nor with other people.
Well, that is good to hear! I always felt there was, at least if you read the internet. I don’t watch South Park, it doesn’t come through on my attic-mounted antenna.
I’m interested in the car, for sure. How is it as a highway cruiser… in terms of quietness, comfort, wind. Our interstates are 75mph limits, so we usually do around 80mph. Still get better mileage than the Subaru.
I admit that I’m a neanderthal: I automatically assume that Prius drivers have more money than sense until proven otherwise. The cost/benefit analysis of a new Prius never made any sense unless you drove 300,000 miles – and most Prius drivers don’t look like they could survive such a journey.
Rento,
What other choice is there for those in the market for a super reliable midsize hatchback?
Renton:
How is something that costs around $22k and is a decent size vehicle a bad buy? Yeah, it’s not as big as a Camry/Accord but is bigger than a Corolla/Focus (more so in rear legroom). It’s almost spot on, except for cargo room, inside than my 07 Outback. A similiarly optioned Focus is probably within the same price range. And it gets great fuel mileage, but still has a higher operating cost. I’m getting to the point where I want to lower as many monthly “costs” as possible…and when it comes time for a new(er) vehicle, than the Prius hits that target as do a number of other vehicles coming to market. Yeah, it’s slow…so is my Outback and my wife will be driving around anyways. 0-30 is more important than 0-60 here in Idaho.
And jmo is correct, the are super-reliable. Most reliable vehicle sold in Germany…seems impressive to me.
With all that said, I’d still rather get a CTS wagon next. We’ll see where my situation is at that point.
I agree – if you’re still in the market, hit the Prius. With gas prices on the slide, they’re hella cheap right now. (There’s a 2010 Prius IV with 40k miles on PriusChat right now, and it’s got leather, nav, etc. sking $18.5k, and willing to deal…) Or you can get a new 2011 Prius for very near $20k right now – with end of year incentives.
According to any extant data the Prius is incredibly reliable. (Nevermind gramps thinking that they “must be really complex and trouble-prone”) As TTAC covered a few days ago – the most reliably car in Germany where things are measured in the most minute detail. Top marks all around. The running costs are quite low as well. Oil changes only every 10k, and brake pads last well over 100k.
They’re quiet, comfortable, and as involved a drive as you want. And they’re plenty quick enough – don’t believe the ragmag bent that they’re slow. Think of it this way – how often do you make balls-to-the-wall 0-60 runs in daily driving? The Prius is no racecar, but unless you’re overly fond of passing large trucks on two lane roads while chugging uphill with a full load, you’ll be fine.
And those who say that the economic argument doesn’t stack up are crazy. Against what competitor? The prius is bigger inside than the Focus/Impreza/Mazda3/Jetta, etc, and all of them get priced very near the Prius when similarly equipped. The bigger thing is resale – at five years old a Prius is worth twice what a Focus is. And over those same five years you’d have saved a few grand in gas money as well.
@TEXN3:
I just took a rented 2010 Prius on a ~350 mile trek to see how it would do. Quietness is subjective, but volume isn’t. My previous car was a 2006 Scion xB, and the Prius averaged 12dB quieter on the highway. Definitely not as quiet as a new Lexus, but it seemed silent compared to what I was used to. One strange thing – the stock Yokohama tires are quite loud on concrete. Strange but true. They’re silent on asphalt, but when hitting stretches of concrete they really scream. Worth considering depending on where you drive.
As for cruising speeds, it’ll do whatever you want it to. I cruised at 70, 80, and 90ish, and all were calm and felt perfectly fine. Like any new car, you just don’t feel the speed – the miles just tick by. Plus, the damn thing is so slippery it really feels effortless at speed. The best part – over the trip I averaged 48.3 mpg. Certainly not bad – and there isn’t another car on the market that can match it.
The hardest thing for me was giving up the clutch pedal – for the past 20 years its only been manual transmissions for me. That said, the planetary gearbox works splendidly and invisibly, and when using cruise control it was buttery smooth powering up large hills that would make slushboxes drop a gear or two and scream.
In the end – I took it out there looking for a reason not to buy one, but couldn’t find one. I needed a roomy back seat since I’m tall and have a kid in a car seat. The Prius works. (And I found a great deal on almost-new one.)
Thank you Thinkin. That’s the info I like to hear, you’re right about Yoko tires being loud, both my vehicles have them (Acura with Envigor and Subaru with Geolanders) and they do get loud.
My wife and I swapped cars when we got married, then her Volvo died. I replaced it with the Acura, so I’ve gotten used to driving an auto but don’t enjoy it… I think I’d be ok with a CVT. She tires of the manual but prefers the newer vehicle. Ive come to love the Acura but am getting the itch to replace it and get my Outback back. And she likes the Prius.
Much as I despise them from an enthusiast driver perspective, this is THE use case for a Prius. As others have already said, roomy, reliable, and fantastic urban gas mileage. Refined enough, especially at around town speeds. They are perfectly fine in the snow with appropriate winter tires on them.
Just FYI – I bought a 2009 Toyota Corolla brand new. So far I have put just under 78,000 miles on it and it barely gets 30 MPG. 28-30 average – mostly highway at 75 MPH. Its on its second transmission and its 3rd set of front brakes and I do not drive it agressively at all. Everytime I drive it I tell myself “it has cold air and a radio, it will be paid off in XX months (currently 18)” It is a misrable little car – I call it “the penaly box” Judge youself accordingly.
Your wife’s current ride surely seems like it’s served you and its previous owner(s) above and beyond . . .
Unless you have money to burn (which I doubt if someone is “going back to school”) joining the enviro poseur crowd with a hybrid is a luxury which you can’t afford. (And didn’t the Civic Hybrid have problems with its CVT?) Do the math instead. How many miles per year is your wife expecting to drive? Then, figure out, based on that number, the dollars per year you will save in fuel expenses with a 30 mpg car vs. a 40 mpg car. If you’re not saving more money than you’re spending on it, a hybrid does not make economic sense.
I’m not sure what your real budget is. Having driven the new Focus as a rental and then almost bought one for myself (I decided to keep my current car instead), I can say that it’s very impressive in terms of comfort, quiet, etc. . . . However, a couple of big caveats: (1) for its exterior size, the car strikes me as small inside. The back seat is small and the trunk under the hatch is small. Secondly, neither my wife nor I liked the way the DCT automatic transmission drove . . . and as a new device, it strikes me as a source of possible trouble. However, the manual transmission was absolutely lovely, with a very easy clutch. So, if your wife drives a stick and you’re not fixated on maximizing interior space, I highly recommend the Focus. Should be no problem getting a car under $20K. I got a little under 20K offer on a loaded SE hatch, sport package, satellite radio, winter package, etc.
If your wife really is going to use the car just to go back and forth to school and you want to reduce your investment, get a Fit, new or used, whatever makes sense. It will NOT feel anything like a Focus, but it’s cheaper and will probably be stone reliable.
Both of these cars are well up the diminishing returns point for fuel economy, unless gas goes to $6/gallon and/or you plan on driving 20,000 miles/yr. And either one should easily cut your fuel bill in half.
the difference between a Prius and another used compact for the 5400 or so your wife will be commuting to and from school is ~300 if gas stays at 3/gal, $400 at 4/gal, a year. If she will actually drive the thing more like 11k a year (miles in addition to school) then double those numbers. The difference would certainly be less if the alternative is a fit than if it is oh, say, a Corolla, although I’m guessing a bit, and maybe underestimating the mileage from a non hybrid compact. I estimated 25mpg city for your average run of the mill used compact, and 50 for the prius (it shines in urban traffic). I’m probably being a bit optimistic on the Prius advantage. But this should give the general idea.
Brakes are not rocket science, and a vehicle that is paid for will save you way more net dollars than getting something with better mileage that has a payment. Fix your brakes and bank the extra cash that you would be spending on a car payment.
Not sure the Prius is ever a deal on the used market. I think the current crop of compact cars with non-hybrid ICE engines provide excellent mileage and levels of refinement that are surprisingly good. The older generations are a significant step down.
The $5000 cash car will be a huge step down from the RX. If you want an older used car with good mileage and an interior that will be comparable, a used TSX is the choice. Pretty dependable as well.
Maybe not on a regular basis but I got mine after the “unintended acceleration” scare. Paid just over $10K for a 2005 in excellent condition (had to buy 4 tires, an air filter, and a cabin air filter).
Since then I’ve replaced a V ribbed belt ($25, was easy enough that I replaced it at home), the antenna mast ($4) did that just for looks, I’ll be buying wiper blades some time in 2012 and I still want to buy a 12v battery (maybe $150 to $200 depending on if I get the EOM or the Optima yellow top).
I’ve had the car for over a year now and I’m still in the 8x,xxx miles range (I think I passed 85k recently or I’m just under that).
The homelink rear view mirror is way more convenient than swapping batteries in the old garage door opener remote. The 3 door SKS (smart key system) means I don’t take my keys out of my pocket, very convenient. The 6 CD changer / JBL system is nicer than any other car radio I’ve had in a used car.
I don’t think I could have gotten a nicer car for the current TCO and I don’t think I could have gotten a more reliable car in the under 10K category. So given that I consider the 60 MPG spring, summer, fall and 50 MPG winter a bonus I’d still be happy with my purchase if the car was getting 40 MPG instead of 60 MPG.
Yessir. And, for example compare that to a 2005 Focus…. In today’s used market a 2005 Prius is worth $5,000 more than a comparably equipped Ford Focus. Over 100,000 miles, it will have used ~2,000 fewer gallons of gas. So if we say gas over the past 6 years has averaged $2.50/gal, you’ve saved $5,000 on gas alone. Other costs aside, that means that a 2005 Prius is about $10,000 ahead of the Focus, and that’s not factoring in that the Prius is more reliable, with a longer powertrain warranty.
So a 2005 Prius cost $5k more than the Focus new. At 100,000k you break even on cost based on fuel savings alone. And you’re ahead by $5,000 when you factor in resale value. Economical sense and cents.
You could go with a midsize car that is new or almost new (Honda Accord comes to mind) and get much better mileage than you are now. (2011 and 2012 4 cyl. auto Accords are conservatively rated at 23/34 MPG)
i have a 2011 Accord 4cyl. I drive quite conservatively on a mixes suburban route. My tires are properly inflated. Maybe 1/2 freeway 1/2 suburban street. Best tank ever 26mpg (my wife took a 100 mile round trip on freeway). Averaging around 24.
I dont think the MPG rating of 23/34 and 27 combined is conservative – rather aggressive if you ask me.
Don’t even remotely believe that the brand will have the greatest impact on the longevity of the vehicle.
What if it was built in Italy, France, or England? I’ve always avoided those nations due to longevity fears. Could I be out there pursuing the Land Rover or Alfa of my dreams?
No. But in those extreme cases you may be ‘pushing’ the car of your dreams.
Thanks guys! Yes, this question was posed a while ago – back in May, to be precise, when gas was over $4, Japan’s automakers were basically shut down, and used car prices were completely out of whack with common sense. Two of those things have changed since then.
In the end, we sold the RX300 and have been making due with my 2008 TL as the only car. It turns out that my wife can usually drop me off at work on her way to school, and I either take the subway home or catch a ride back on days that I’m lucky. We’ve only needed two cars once, for which I rented, which was a PITA but not nearly as bad as paying upkeep on a second car.
Interesting bunch of replies – pretty much all over the map. I think we’re sticking with my car for the next year or so, but after that we’ll likely need a second car when we move, and if the market still undervalues Prii at that point, that sounds like the solution to me (I had no idea about that, btw).
Another Prius data point here. I drove a 50 mile daily round trip from the Denver foothills to downtown Denver for the past 7 years in a Prius. I never put snow tires on it and I never had an issue getting around (except in those few extreme Denver cases when EVERYBODY has trouble getting around, maybe 4 times in 7 years).
And in those 7 years I put on nearly 120,000 miles and it still has the original lead acid battery, the original NIMH battery, the original brake pads, all the original light bulbs, all original belts, if fact all original everything except oil, filters and wiper blades. To say the “other than normal maintenance” cost for the car has been $0 understates the case. Only a hybrid could do 120,000 in city driving without new brake pads/shoes.