Last weekend I flew into the highly opinionated world known as Long Island. Within minutes my sensitive Southern ears were exposed to the most strident of views in today’s political world. These conversations can be summarized in four words, “Yay us! Boo them!” The usual cheering sections of modern politics.
After gradually listening to the verbal pom-poms over a nice cup of tea, I realized something. I’m no different.
Perish the thought. I may very well believe in several ideas about car buying that are essentially untrue.
Heck, I may even unknowingly promote them at TTAC. So here are 10 opinions I have on car buying. No essays. No glorious soliloquies of pithy summations. Just thoughts with a brief rationale. Let me know if you agree or disagree. I’m handing out free pom-poms in honor of my trip.
1. Certified means nothing
We have a saying in the auto auction business. “If a car company sold nothing but shitbags, they would at least be certified shitbags.”
Certified means nothing. Zero. Not even the letters that make up the word.
2. Neither do brands
Better brand? Doesn’t matter. Even Toyota and Honda now sell cheap cars.
3. Most accidents are overrated.
“Has this car been in any accidents?” Unless it’s a severe accident with frame damage and/or the repairs or parts were substandard, it doesn’t matter.
4. If you don’t know the owner, you’re buying a stranger.
Car cleaning chemicals may make a vehicle look shiny and more expensive in today’s retail market. But it doesn’t make it a better buy.
5. The car market thrives on debt and stupidity.
The media marketers don’t exclaim…. “Blow $12,000 and own nothing after 3 years!”
Instead they tell you, “Lease for only $299 a month! That’s right!” and then the manufacturers provide consumers with 15 paragraphs of gotchas and small print BS that is designed to ream your savings account.
6. Most car reviews are sinuoustic trash.
Throw in 27 adjectives. 13 adverbs. Copious amounts of self-adulation and navel gazing. Heck! Throw in a few SAT words like copious and voila! You have a new car review.
Not a good car review. But one that can pay the bills if you’re the writer for most non-automotive publications… or Motor Trend.
7. The goal with car buying is not to be rational. The goal is to be happy.
Don’t ever be afraid to pay a premium for a superior product. So long as you have the cash, you will never regret forgoing the “right deal”.
Deals are based on cheap. Happiness, when it comes to cars at least, is based on purchasing those things that endure.
8. The best car to own is the one you can maintain yourself.
Every armchair historian in this business likes to mention the 3rd generation Camry (1992 – 1996) as a bellwether for Toyota’s superior quality. It is… to a degree. But one of the main reasons why is because nearly everything on the popular four-cylinder version is easy to inspect and service.
When you know what’s going on with your car, it’s easier to enjoy it for the long haul.
9. When it comes to cars it’s almost always better to fall in love again, than find a new lover.
Do I advocate owning an automotive dinosaur? No. Not really…. perhaps… OK. Maybe one.
Certain older cars have a driving experience that can’t be replicated. There may be vehicles that surpass the enduring qualities of a 1st gen Miata or Insight in today’s market for instance. I just haven’t experienced them yet.
10. The future may be modular.
When the powertrains quit on the two cars I mentioned, I’ll just put in a new powertrain. Everything in a car can be replaced.
Or maybe not? Today’s cars are electronic laden after all.
Let me know what you think.
I’d agree with most of your comments except for the statement “brands mean nothing.” For example,a Lexus and a Land Rover are about the same cost and complexity, and yet the Lexus is light years ahead in reliability. Don’t believe me? Look at the value of a 10 year Lexus compared to a 10 year old Land Rover–and no, it’s not just brand perception.
Brand means nothing? Really? Next time I go look for a used car and have to pay a premium for either a Honda or Toyota, I will bring a copy of this article to the dealer and tell them that they’re wrong! My sister’s 2009 Journey has had as many brakes jobs as my 98 Corolla!
Ask a recent Honda Accord owner how many brake jobs they’ve had.
I also disagree that “brand doesn’t matter”. Out of the 10 Toyota’s my family and I have owned over the years, only 2 were bought new. Only 1 came with any kind service records. All of the used ones were over 10 years old when we bought them, were purchased privately and we didn’t know any of the previous owners. We basically checked for leaks, took the cars on a short test drive, checked the oil and coolant, and done. None of the cars were brought to a shop or mechanic to have them checked out. We’ve driven each car for a minimum of 2 years and none of them have had any sort of problems worth mentioning, only basic maintenance and wear & tear items (like plugs and brakes and struts). The JD Power article Mr.Schmitt posed today, as well as the German Tüv report both show that brands matter.
“Ask a recent Honda Accord owner how many brake jobs they’ve had.”
+1, just got done paying (alot) for new rotors/calipers/pads for mine
At 145K miles I did none, not a single one, not even replaced brake pads. And not only brake job but any kind of repair. And it is not a Honda or Toyota or any other Japanese brand. I flushed brake fluid every three years though and use gas pedal for most of time.
Brands indeed mean nothing. They only can provide you a statistical comfort / peace of mind.
Cars are used and maintained by people, not by hood lables.
If brand means nothing, Michael Karesh might as well jettison truedelta.com. (Keep it going, Michael!)
I do agree with you on most of the rest of the statements. Yes, car dealers do thrive on stupidity. I recently bought an ’08 Civic from a dealer. He showed me some figures on coast of ownership for the car (it was heading into $1500/year) to try to get me to spend two Gs for two years worth of extended warranty. I asked him what the $1500/year included. Basically, everything spent on the car. Obviously, a bad deal to anyone who is friendly with numbers, but I’m sure he suckered a lot of suckers into buying the useless extended warranty.
Brands are everything. So is building and killing reputations. We are barely getting out of the old Kia / Hyundai perseptions. Mopar vans would kill brakes at 15K all the time. Warranty on them was only 12k. Toyota Sienna would do 30-35K before needing brakes. Pontiac G6 would always have issues. Toyotas were boring. That’s It.
I think the inference was Brands & Models matter, not just Brands. Every brand can have a dud model/platform
+1 Outback_Ute evry family has a black sheep. Just hit more then miss.
I also have to disagree with Mr. Lang somewhat on his point that brand is meaningless. While maintenance can have a huge effect on a certain cars reliability, it can’t prevent unreliable cars from having lots of costly repairs. ALL of my reliability issues with cars over the past decade or two had nothing to do with lack of maintenance. I maintained my VW Passat above and beyond what VW recommended and had thousands of dollars worth of parts fail that are never part of any maintenance schedule. How will maintenance prevent control arms, coil packs, MAF sensors, turn signals, headlight bulbs, vanity visor lights, window regulators, ABS module, and vacuum lines from failing in less than 30k miles?
Pretty much hit it.
Especially the part about maintaining a car, #8. I’m a mechanic by trade, I work as a diesel technician. I always work on my own vehicles; not that I always want to, but the cost savings can be great.
One of the big reasons that sold me on the 2012 Mustang we got. The engine bay was so clean, everything was fairly straightforward. From my experience, it looked like it would be pretty easy to maintain long after the warranty expires. This is also why I find the solid axle a big plus too (one look at the rear suspension of the new Camaro….. scary).
Car maintenance is completely lost in modern car reviews. Probably do to the fact that most Journos couldn’t even turn a wrench, or maybe they’re turning in their leased BMW every 3 years before they’d ever need to.
I wish I had paid attention to the maintainability aspect of things when I bought my VQ35 equipped Nissan Altima. I am due for a spark plug change, but to get to the rear plugs, I will need to remove the intake manifold and the wiper cowl. I really wanted the V6, but, now, I can’t help but think about how easy the plugs must be to change on the 4 cylinder.
Ouch. You should bring this up in the comments for Jack’s FWD vs RWD article. Several people pointed out maintenance on FWD cars being a problem, specifically citing spark plug and ignition coil replacement on the rear cylinder bank of V6 transverse engines. I thought it was just an annoying, knuckle-busting lack of space. I didn’t realize it was that bad.
I’d say that I don’t want a car that has been in an accident. Not because it might break down sooner, but it just won’t be the same. The color won’t be quite right maybe, or the aftermarket bumper will have the repaint bubbling off in a few years. I don’t want any car that has been messed with too much after coming out of the factory. At least not any car I’m paying real money for.
A dealer damaged my dashboard after I went in for a warranty replacement of my stereo. Weeks and 3 dashboards later I’m told my car is finally ready. I drive out and realize that my blinkers no longer work. Turn around and another week later finally get a fully restored car that I’d taken meticulous care of. Over the next week I discover grime and chipped pieces of trim from the careless mechanic. All it takes is one incompetent person to turn something minor into a big problem. If I had the choice of paying a little more for a car that’s never been messed with too much I’ll take it. Or just buy new again.
Steve kind of covered this with his “substandard repair” caveat, but I agree with avoiding cars in accidents. A poor quality paint job can result in inferior rust protection down the road, and that can be tough to notice at first.
I guess replacing bumper covers is OK, but any accident that affects actual metal makes me nervous.
Yeah I’m talking things you don’t see that creep up later, like the rust you mention, poor repaint that doesn’t last or a difference in the shade you only notice later in the sun. You may not know it was substandard until it’s too late, so why take the chance?
+1. My red 2002 Audi A4 looked like sex on a stick. In the sunlight, however, the driver’s side door was not quite the same shed of red. Some colors I’m sure are easier to match than others, but once I saw that slight difference in the color, I couldn’t see anything else.
Cole – That’s exactly it for me. It may not matter to anyone else but once I see it it’ll drive me crazy. I didn’t even want my car anymore after the dashboard fiasco but forced myself to get over it. Everyday I see a couple of nicks on the a/c bezel and it drives me nuts. Just not worth it when you can find accident free models out there.
Most accidents are overrated/ “substandard repair”.
****When are accident repairs NOT substandard? And for that matter any repairs not related to regular maintenance not substandard?***
Why did the Mopar tech break the plastic locator pins for my Dakota’s dash cover when he was replacing radio under warranty? I had the dash covers out several times prior to that (to cover the faux woodgrain with sign vinyl and to replace the head light switch) and never broke the pins and I am not ASE certified.
Why did the tech leave off the clips to the wire loom or the cover for the throttle cables at the intake when he did the timing belt, head gasket, water pump on my (now ex)wife’s Neon?
Or the body work guys who did not reconnect the horn on my sister-in laws PT cruiser when it got a new header and right fender? Simple enough!
How about fighting water in the trunk (of same Neon as above) due to the body shop not sealing a right rear fender skin repair to the existing the right rear fender well. I, ME , MYSELF fixed that fuster-cluck with one and 1/2 household size tubes of exterior silicon caulk into the offending area and then covered it with undercoating spray. Even the bring back tech only used a little line of silicon that didn’t even cover the actual gap in the joint of fender to fender well.
How do you ever know the repairs are up to par? Basically the accident rating takes this into account that the repairs will never ever be up to par with the first build quality, tightness, etc.
So long as you go to the junk-yard yourself and pick out the nose of the car you want grafted onto your own, you’ll be alright.
It’s true about matching paint though, my brother’s bright red car needed a new bonnet, wings and bumper after he and his g/f managed to crash it twice in one day (her into a parked car and him into a deer); the car looks better than ever now despite the front now being Rover red which was the closest match to the back which is 12 year old Renault red.
Before anyone makes any prejudiced comments about brands, the car has been mechanically bullet-proof for its entire existence; I think it required a replacement alternator a few years ago but that’s been it. Other family members with a Citroen and a Skoda have found their cars to have been extremely reliable.
I agree on the accident – don’t want a part of a car that has been hit. It’s not just the chance of a sub-standard repair, but possible weakening of other components that don’t show up until later.
Case in point. We got our Odyssey from my inlaws. It had been in a light accident, rear ending someone else. Fixed by my wife’s cousin, who does top notch work (one of those repair shops that will not use aftermarket body parts)
A year after we get the car I start smelling coolant. Turns out the radiator had a small crack. We figure it had weakened when the car was in the accident but didn’t actually start leaking until a few years later.
Agreed. For this very same reason, a low mileage car is preferable to a car with a rebuilt engine and transmission. I don’t care how good a mechanic you have- he is not going to do better than the factory.
This is exactly why an accident on record hurts trade in values. You may know that the car you’re trading only had a minor fender bender, but if the Carfax shows an accident, it shows an accident. Every potential customer on that car will be able to see that, and if they are still interested, they’ll use that knowledge to try to lowball their offer.
Interesting thoughts Mr. Lang.
Another favorite of mine would likely be #11. People don’t think how much gas you can buy with a lower monthly payment and cheaper insurance. Buy new car A for $400 a month and full coverage insurance with 35mpg or buy used car B for $200 a month liability coverage (or cheaper full coverage insurance) with 25 mpg? You can buy quite a bit of gas with the savings.
This is less of a gas mileage comment and more of a comment on the fiscal responsibility of buying cheapest car you can keep on the road with minimal repairs. More than likely, the cheapest, most reliable car you can get actually does do quite well on gas. The gas mileage is a non-player in that statement, IMO.
No, Dan is correct regarding gasoline vs. total cost of ownership. There are many large vehicles that are lower risk for insurance companies than smaller ones. Buick Lacrosse owners do fewer crazy, stupid things than Honda Civic owners and the difference is reflected in insurance rates. People with short to moderate commutes can save money by minimizing insurance cost at the expense of buying more gasoline.
George B – how is this for crazy on the crazy meter?
There are people who currently get – oh, I don’t know, I’ll pull an arbitrary number out my rear b/c it doesn’t really matter – 20 mpg in their current, reliable, practical vehicles, many of which are only a few years old, who drive less than 15k miles per year (maybe far less), who are willing to pay (and I’m not picking on VW here; substitute Toyota/Chevy/Honda/whomever) a 5k premium, which is MSRP in my example, for a TDI version of the 2012 Passat vs a non-TDI version, based on the rationalization that it will save them money.
First, they’re either going to be selling, or worse yet, trading in many cars in the first 4 years of ownership, and take a hit on depreciation that would’ve been smoothed out with time.
Second, they’re paying an extra 5 grand to obtain a 34 overall mpg rating, versus the 20 mpg overall they currently have.
Third, diesel is about 35 to 40 cents more than gasoline (10% to 15% more).
Fourth, they’re buying an unknown quantity vs what they currently own.
By rough, cocktail napkin math, the average buyer would lose their ass making this purchase, and they wouldn’t even achieve any significant savings on purchasing fuel (the only ones who would would necessarily have to drive many, many miles annually).
But that’s the power of marketing.
I’m not saying a purchase of a 2012 VW Passat TDI (or a Prius/Volt/Lead, etc) can’t make sense for certain purchasers, nor that people shouldn’t be free to make nonsensical purchases, but only that I’d SWAG that many people making such purchases based on a ‘fuel savings’ rational are using a seriously flawed analysis that will cost them dearly financially.
@DeadWeight
That is the exact decision a co-worker of mine made when he bought a brand new Jetta TDI to “save money on gas.” How he rationalized that decision I will never know. They have 3 cars in the family now when they could have just had 2 and an extra $23k in their pockets to buy gas.
My argument was always that a well maintained but beater, liability insurance only, $1500 value Dodge Neon (25-33 mpg) is always cheaper to run than a brand new Toyota Prius in an actual all-costs-included per mile basis.
I’ve got a perfect case in point in my own office. Wife drives a brand new Chevrolet Cruze ECO husband drives his dearly departed uncles old DeVille that he picked up for a song. Even if/when the Northstar goes tits up he’ll still be ahead of her from a cost of ownership standpoint(he’s the kind of guy who will walk away and move on when that happens.)
Except you can’t really compare a new car with a used car. What you are paying for when you buy a new car- is the peace of mind that it will start every time you need it to start.
Now your comment would make perfect sense for somebody who is cross-shopping between a Buick Lacrosse and a VW Toureg for example. The latter would have a hugely more expensive insurance premium just because it’s a low volume european car.
Item seven is perfect. I bought my last car eight years ago and while I probably could have fought and wrangled and contacted dealers in Timbuktu for a price match, I bought exactly what I wanted in the color I wanted with a loan I knew could be paid back and haven’t regretted it.
Eight and nine are good, too. It’s why I’m very skeptical of buying anything new again. Now that the wagon’s eight I’m tempted to begin festooning it with stickers like in the picture.
Hey Steve, when you say “certified means nothing,” I have to assume you mean from some shady “local” used car dealership, right? I mean, maybe it’s just me, but I’ve bought “certified pre owned” vehicles from both Lexus and Audi dealerships, which were maybe $1,000 more than a comparable “used” product but came with 100,000 mile warranty coverage, which came in especially handy with the Audi. Care to clarify?
I think he means that aside from the warranty, the certification means almost nothing. In truth, buyers buy the warranty on CPO cars as it is reflected in the price premium.
The dealer does the certification, he has absolutely nothing to lose (and, perhaps, quite a bit of warranty work to gain) by certifying a questionable car that meets the basic criteria.
I bought a 2000 Mercedes S500 from a Mercedes dealership and was very happy I had the warranty on several different occasions. So to that extent the answer is yes, a CPO warranty is very much worth having.
However, I recently test drove a CPO 2008 Mercedes CLS550 at Delray Beach Mercedes that was advertised to me as certified, but had a busted CD player cover, squeaky power windows, and a lot more paint scratches than seemed reasonable.
I test drove it, and acceleration, ride and handling were absolutely flawless, but I was frankly upset that it was not in the pristine condition I would have expected.
Because of the warranty I’m sure the dealership would have set things right if I’d nagged them enough, but it really turned me off on the dealership. A certified car should be as close to perfect as they can make it.
Then I discovered I wasn’t going to get the windfall I was hoping for and it became irrelevant :(, but I suspect I’ll choose another dealer if I want a certified car. I know when I went through the Certified cars at Fletcher Jones in Newport Beach, California, they all looked perfect. Not a single scratch on any of them.
Maybe the moral is to choose the most upscale Mercedes dealer you can find. Prices aren’t significantly different. So next time I will go to Mercedes-Benz of Palm Beach and see if their cars are as they should be … from a quick look there, I think they are, but one never knows until you take a really detailed look – which is what I think Mr Lang is suggesting.
D
I don’t get that comment, either. The typical used car deal from any kind of dealer is a 30-day warranty. This is on a car where you can’t know the repair history because you can’t know the previous owner. There are only two ways to do better than that: (1) get a car that’s new enough to still be covered by its mfr’s. new car warranty; and (2) get a CPO.
How many used car dealers let you take their car to your mechanic for an inspection? Zero, as far as I know.
Obviously, the rules are entirely different if you’re buying from a private party. But, if you don’t have the time to invest in that kind of transaction, I would not say a CPO is “nothing.”
“How many used car dealers let you take their car to your mechanic for an inspection? Zero, as far as I know.”
This is possible. I’ve managed it. Not only that, but the dealer actually drove it to the mechanic for me.
It sounds ridiculously generous of him, but there were limitations. The mechanic had to be close by, so I had to one in the area that wasn’t my regular mechanic. I was fortunate to find one that specialized in that particular manufacturer only a few miles away. The mechanic didn’t have too many nice things to say about the car, to the point where I didn’t think it would be worthwhile to even try to continue negotiations based on the asking price. The dealer was beyond pissed, as he seemed to think he had a done deal even before the inspection. Oh well.
Moral of the story is there are no rules to buying from used dealers vs private sellers. If a dealer wants a sale, they are going to have to work with you to accomplish that. As far as I’m concerned, no inspection allowed means no deal. They can try their luck with whatever market they think exists for the car at that point.
I’ve worked in and around lots of used car dealerships. Any reputable used car dealer will happily and readily allow you to take a car to a mechanic of your choice for inspection before purchasing – at your cost, of course. I’ve seen it allowed many, many times. If the dealer you’re working with won’t allow that, RUN AWAY!
Why wouldn’t a used car dealer let you take the car for an inspection? If one pulled that on me it would be an instant “no sale”, because they are obviously hiding something.
At this point, I generally just take any car I am interested in locally home, put it up on my lift and spend 30 minutes poking and proding. Between that and a good test drive I am rarely surprised.
The adventure that is buying sight-unseen a time-zone or two away is another story all-together, but I have made out very well on those also. Takes a knack, I guess.
But in general I am totally in agreement with Steve’s thoughts this time around. Which is kind of unusual.
There are a million good reasons why no dealer who is not totally desparate (and not a little stupid) is not going to let any would-be buyer walk off with a car and “take it home for the night” without basically signing papers that says the buyer owns the car. Like, for instance, insurance, the possibility that the car might be wrecked (which degrades its value even if a third party pays the entire cost of repairs). Secondly, as with pre-purchase home inspections, the inspection simply becomes a negotiating tool for the buyer, especially with respect to problems that fall in the grey area of “you will need to fix this soon.” Eg. BMWs with the N54 6-cylinder engine from 1999-2004 or so, which have notoriously fragile cooling systems. The inspection mechanic could say, “Well, you should replace the water pump. If it has a plastic impeller, it could fail catastrophically. Same for the radiator, same for the expansion tank (all of which have plastic components. And these things are subject to failure after 60,000 miles.” (This, by the way, is an entirely true statement; and the cost of a complete prophylatic repair is about $2,000 or about $700 in parts and a long afternoon if you do it yourself.) So, if you’re the seller, are you going to set yourself up for this kind of thing? Probably not. It’s a used car, after all. Neither buyer nor seller know too much about it.
I don’t sell a lot of used cars. My dealership is split between new and used, and most of the time the hassle of dealing with used cars isn’t worth it, but if I have a customer I’ve worked with for a while and they are set on a used vehicle, or a used vehicle is the only way to get something in the price range they are looking for, I can do it.
I’ve only had one customer ask for an inspection by an independent mechanic before buying, and we let him go for it. He signed papers putting any liability for a wreck while the car was in his possession on him, and he drove it to the garage he picked. The car checked out, and he ended up buying it, so it all worked out.
I can see potential problems if the mechanic in question was just trying to make a buck and recommended repairs or maintenance that weren’t needed at the time, but on the other hand, if we were to say no to the request, it’s likely he wouldn’t have went for the car.
“How many used car dealers let you take their car to your mechanic for an inspection? Zero, as far as I know”
When i was a yard hand at a small used car place a kid came in looking at a jeep wrangler. He had done some research and knew the exhaust manifold could have problems so he got it inspected. The mechanic told him it was cracked and probably wouldn’t last. The idiot bought it anyway. When the manifold disintegrated the kid came back asking for his money back as the car was still under statutory warranty. The catch is because he knew of the problem he couldn’t argue the car was unfit for the purpose for which it was sold. The kid ended up wearing a 3k repair on an 8k car.
You are buying a warranty, that’s it. The point is that all this BS about 999 point inspection, etc. is just BS. In one moment of weakness, I almost bought a used TDI at a VW dealership. They quoted two prices for the same car, $800 higher to make it Certified. Also remember the case of the “Certified” Mercedes that had a cracked frame.
Yes, you’re buying a warranty, but that warranty can easily be worth the thousand bucks or so for the certification. How many things have to go wrong over the three or four years covered by the warranty for it to pay for itself? The “never own a German car out of warranty” adage would basically mean “never own a German car you didn’t buy new” if CPO didn’t exist. With it, a four-year-old 545i can be a perfectly responsible decision.
You guys are missing the point. Just because you were happy to have the “CPO warranty” doesnt make CPO an automatic good deal. Actually, by your comments you proved the point, by mentioning the other cars that were “certified” yet not very nice.
The point is that “Certified” is a BS marketing term aimed at people who don’t understand cars. A shady dealer can certify crap, and a good dealer may sell perfect used cars that aren’t certified. When you buy CPO, you are buying an extended warranty, and paying a premium price for it. You can buy a warranty anyway, you dont need to pay for a certified car to do it.
My feelings on extended warranties is if you are so concerned about the car that you think you need a warranty, then you shouldnt buy the car in the first place. You are better off putting that money in a savings account and saving up for any surprise repairs. And, stay away from the dealership.
“A shady dealer can certify crap.” Not sure about that, with respect to the manufacturer warranty programs. The manufacturer is the one who pays for the repairs under the CPO warranty, not the dealer. So, the manufacturer has an interest in seeing that the dealer does the required per-certification inspection and any necessary repairs. Many programs will give you the inspection report. And, since the warranty travels with the car, the “shady dealer” certifying the car without doing the required inspection/repair has zero assurance that the under-warranty repairs are going to be done in their shop.
While I have had dealers offer to certify a non-certified car to close the deal, as a general matter, I did not see a marked price difference between certified and non-certified cars of the same make, model, year, etc. at least with respect to BMWs and Acuras.
The cost to certify a car is usually far less than the cost of a warranty that would cover the same stuff, at least from my experience on the Ford/Lincoln side of things.
There are also some added perks – certified cars come with roadside assistance, a few months free Sirius, a full detail and full tank of gas, two keys and all the books, tires and brakes with at least 50% of life remaining, and a pedigree free of commercial use or any accidents. Ford Credit also has preferred finance rates for certified vehicles that aren’t available on general used cars.
We can’t certify any car, Ford has rules about the history of the vehicle and what it can or can’t contain to be eligible. The dealer is on the hook for any repairs inside of a certain time frame, so there is incentive not to certify cars that could end up costing money for repairs.
Good point, they cant just certify “crap”, there are rules set forth by the manufacturer. By crap, what I meant was things that are overlooked by the factory guidelines, scratches on the interior panels, minor imperfections as pointed out by @David above. But anyone can inspect a used car and look for the same things a certification inspection looks for, its just simple common sense.
@DC Bruce, I do not know of any used car dealers that will not allow you to take a car to be inspected, refusing that request to a potential buyer is business suicide, only the lowliest buy-here-pay-here dealers would take that approach.
@Nullo, those “perks” are complete BS. Any car I have ever bought from a dealer includes a detail, full tank of gas, etc. Roadside assistance is not ALWAYS included, it depends on the program, and who cares? $60 a year and I have AAA. A few months of sat radio? What is it, $10 a month? Wow.
And when you compare prices of CPO vs. non CPO at the same dealer, OF COURSE the price wont be that different. The dealer has a vested interest in making the CPO cars look like a good deal. You need to cross-shop around, and I try to avoid buying a used car from a new car dealer of the same brand. They almost always price them higher.
I am not saying to never buy a CPO car. All I am saying is, dont limit yourself to only CPO and act like its the greatest invention since sliced bread. Inspect your future car properly, and be aware that CPO just means it includes a warranty.
What an outstanding article, Steven Lang.
You just gave a modern, condensed, automotive-theme and less-extreme (but brilliant nonetheless) twist on Thoreau’s ‘Walden’ (or Tyler Durden’s rant in Fight Club; or Bill Hicks comedic [and profoundly true] rift on marketing and marketers; or Carlin’s ‘Big Club’ wisdom).
I don’t want to get too technical, but the main problems the world faces all revolve around the deep structural flaw (some would call it an act of intentional deceit) that underpins the global economy: The absence of a liquid pool of real money that all can access and use to conduct commerce.
(If anyone is doubting that a deceit or form of trickery is the foundation for the existing economic system, make it a point to ask people basic questions such as “[w]hat is money?” and “[w]here does money come from/how is [m]oney created?,” or the flipside for that matter, such as [w]hat is debt?” and “[w]here does debt come from?”)
What we have instead are dozens of paper fiat systems, of different colors, with two of those acting as the reserve currencies (for the moment), with that fiat subject to being diluted in purchasing power (i.e. inflation) with the entry of a few key strokes.
To stick with the automotive theme here, however, the simple rules of the rational actor in a manipulated world would be:
1) Buy a known quantity.
2) Buy what you need (read into that whatever you may).
3) Buy without borrowing.
4) Take good care of what you buy.
5) Repair whatever may break in competent fashion.
6) Buy as infrequently as possible.
Of course, the entire system would crash and have to be reset if the majority of people followed this philosophy, as it would expose that fundamental flaw and Achilles’ heel of the system I mentioned above, but this would give rise to the possibility of an inherently better system (less subject to epic manipulation by a select few), leading to far fewer people being conned and brainwashed into trading their freedom and time for an accumulation of things that bring them no or even negative pleasure, being born to replace the current system.
The world does run on deception. You could educate yourself to detect and avoid the deception. But really, what you have to learn is how to be the deceiver instead of the deceived.
I’ll never become “the deceiver” and participate in a sham.
I just continue to become more and more self-sufficient, and keep staying away from all forms of debt, while honing valuable skills that are in demand because they’re necessary.
It’s not always the case that “if you can’t beat them, ya’ have to join them.”
Besides, it’s not a very big club, so membership isn’t as open as you imply. ; ) (h/t George Carlin).
#5 all day long. Many buyers only see a monthly payment and don’t understand things like interest, total ownership cost, etc. SAVE MONEY, COME BUY A NEW CAR!
I disagree on #1 and #2. Brands matter because they matter at resale. Is a given Lexus better than a given Volvo? No, but it will hold value better because it is perceived as such. Perception is reality.
On CPOs, because I agree with #4, I disagree with #2. Not all programs are the same. But I purchased 3 used cars in the last decade. One CPO (Volvo) had problems galore, but the warranty saved me. One non CPO (Lexus) had a few problems, which hit my wallet. Another CPO (BMW) has been flawless. At the very least, it provides peace of mind, and the stronger the program, the more likely that something was actually done to the car.
mattfarah just suggested you may mean local “certified”, I value those certifications at zero.
“Resale” is thrown about a lot as a means of rationalizing preference for one car over another equivalent (or better) one.
In line with #7, who are you buying your car for? You, or the next owner?
All other things remotely equal, I’d rather buy the car I want than avoid something just because it might be a tough sell 3-5-10 years from now.
Well, you are buying the car for you. But when you’re trying to figure out the cost of owning the car (assuming you care to do that), then resale value is important . . . even if you plan to keep the car for 10 years.
Another way its important is the role of insurance and insurance regulation. Many states limit the percentage of a car’s value that the insurance company is permitted to cover in a repair. If that percentage is exceeded, the insurance company must declare the car a total, pay you the value and take the car. So, if your car is worth, say, $5000 but is perfectly serviceable, a fairly modest crash repair could result in you losing your car and having to pay a good deal more than the cash the insurance company gave you to buy a replacement.
Of course, you could decline the insurance and keep the car . . . but then you gotta pay to fix it yourself.
I totally agree depreciation fits into the equation for total cost of ownership.
I’m just stressing it shouldn’t be overstated to the detriment of #7. “I really wanted the manual, but went with the auto for resale value” is a lousy bargain to me.
Good or desirable cars (the ones you should buy anyway) tend to hold value, particularly on a longer timeline. At 10 years old, typically the tables have turned to favor enthusiast options, as those are the only remaining shoppers.
As far as I’ve ever seen, you’re given the option to “total out” your car, then buy it back from the insurance company for a reasonable sum. With our example of something that’s totaled over a relatively minor repair, you can almost certainly get the repair done at private-market prices and come out ahead, cash wise. Obviously you’re stuck with a salvage title, but oh well.
Since this article is about used car buying- that used Volvo is going to be cheaper than the used Lexus precisely because of the perception gap. So now is the cheaper Volvo a better buy than the more expensive Lexus? Maybe. You see, it’s not so simple anymore.
It reads like a rationalization for buying a crummy car for too much money. A primer for car dealers’ dream customers, in other words.
Or conversely, buying a quality product without indebting oneself that will last for a long time and adequately or maybe even perfectly suit the needs of the buyer (which would destroy our debt based, instead of wealth based, system that is now our current economic structure, with its layers of bankers/financers, marketers/advertisers, that depends on wasteful churn, and various other snake oil pitchmen, which efficient, free market capitalism would frown upon as wealth and capital destroying).
I agree with Certified meaning nothing, unless its also tied to an extended warranty.
The only one I have any disagreement with is #2. Yes many brands now have cheap cars in their stables. But a cheap car from Honda is historically better than the cheap cars from Ford, GM or Chrysler. So much else on this list is true. Just this week I bought a 2001 Volvo V70 2.4T and couldn’t be happier. This is so well built and drives great. Everyone who has seen it thinks it’s only 3-4 year old and is shocked to learn it’s 2001. And it’s getting 2-3 mpg more than it was rated when manufactured. Bonus!
On Point 2: Seems like I’ve read a lot of advice about avoiding specific brands (like Suzuki and Mitsubishi) in this very column.
To me, a brand still says a lot about the quality of engineering, the quality of componentry and suppliers, and the company’s commitment to customer service (dealership service, recalls, etc.) Has Toyota faltered in quality in recent years? You bet. Would I still take a 4Runner over a Touareg? In a heartbeat.
On Point 3: May be true, but it contradicts Point 7 (the goal is to be happy). Most accidents don’t matter, but it’s hard to tell which do and which don’t, and it will make me much less happy to know that the car I just bought has some (possibly minuscule) chance of being a botched repair/death trap.
On Point 4: Absolutely true, but keep in mind that Aunt Jean/Cousin Timmy/Jerry from Accounting can be as disastrous an owner as any stranger.
On Point 5: Is leasing really that stupid? I tend to disagree. A three-year lease on a new Mini Cooper is about $8700, and that includes maintenance and all repairs. A comparable used car might only depreciate $5000 in those three years, but factor in $1000 for repairs and $500 for maintenance, and the difference is only $2200, or $61 per month. That’s not that much money, and you do get to drive a brand new car with modern technology, safety equipment, and fuel efficiency (which alone might make up the price difference).
Finally, on Point 6: If other people’s opinions about cars are truly useless, then, hell, what are we all doing here?
Good advice. Maintenance by the previous owner is a huge variable. I’d rather buy a somewhat abused rental car that got regular fluid changes than a clean looking repo with no maintenance record. I’m convinced that some of the difference in reliability reputation of Toyota vs. Mitsubishi cars is due to differences in their owners.
The happiest I’ve been through all my years on the various cars I’ve had is when I’ve had the title in my hand. There is something that feels kind of awesome to not have to make payments. It gives you a greater sense of security and freedom.
Central bankers and those in the financial industry absolutely hate you.
You’ve unplugged yourself from their do-nothing-and-make-monopolistic-profits scam.
Congratulations.
Never financed a vehicle. And never will.
I used to know it all when I was 18. That was the peak of my intelligence. /sarc
Now that I’m a little older, I realize how incredibly obtuse I was then, and how naive I was when I blew off the wisdom in the words that my father and even grandfather spoke when talking about “debt.”
Debt. It kills people.
Literally.
Right now a lot of cars are available with 1.9% APR. Let’s say you need to borrow $25000 to buy that $30,000 car you want. You take on a 5 year loan. Guess what- at the end of the 5 years, your total interest cost is…….. a whopping $1226. You get to have your dream car 5 years sooner for an extra $1226. Why is that so horrible? It’s not like you are buying a car with your credit card or anything.
Now the real rule of thumb is this: Never owe more on a car than it’s worth. That is a simple rule you can follow at all times.
I agree with ice— I got my car for over $4000 off sticker, and I got 0.9% interest, which will add up to a whopping $600 over the 5 year course of the loan. Essentially an average of $10 a month. That’s negligible spread over that amount of time. If I were to let this car go right now, I would almost break even on a trade, and be able to make a profit if I sold privately. Under the right circumstances, financing a new car doesn’t have to be a killer.
I tried to do everything right this time.. I have been an absolute fool when buying cars in the past. Time will tell if I finally did it right.
Last time I bought a car, I went to the deal with enough cash in the checking acct to pay cash. When he offered 0.9% for 5 years, I took it.
Debt isnt bad in of itself. For some people, its a way to consume beyond their means. For some its just a way to keep funds free to invest elsewhere.
Same statements could be made about leasing, but its been a long day
Debt is like any other tool; used competently and wisely it can allow you to do good things. Used stupidly and incompetently it can be ruinous.
Just because some (many? most?) people do not know how to use debt as a tool does not make debt inherently bad. Wise people use debt to carefully build and multiply assets; fools use it to squander their resources and keep themselves in servitude.
Meh, I could have paid cash for my BMW, but at 1.9% it doesn’t make a bit of sense to pull $40K out of the market to do so. The interest cost is negligable, and I will still likely pay it off at least a couple years early.
But I know at least one person with terrible credit who has a car loan from a Buy-here-pay-here lot at more than 18% interest. Crazy.
There’s a big difference in “used car” buying if we’re talking about an optimal purchase of a ~2-3 year old vehicle at $20,000 or a sub-$5,000 15 year old 4Runner (or the like).
With one the assumption is that you’re buying a good, working, defect-free car with shorter fuses down to major maintenance events. Deviations from that description should be viewed with extreme skepticism.
The other is a much more complicated equation of owner history, condition, driving, knowing ahead of time what’s going to need work, and knowing ahead of time you could well miss $1000 worth of necessary fixes.
I Googled “sinuoustic” – one hit. I’ve never seen that before. The birth of a neologism! Congratulations Steven.
I think “brands mean nothing” has more to do with not automatically assuming certain are always safe bets than that certain are always a total mess.
I have to agree that modern motoring reviews do not give consideration to ease of servicing or even to documented well known problems. Since nobody has said so yet, (unusual on this site) a late model body on frame car with a proven engine and simple electrics that has been owned by elderly owners is the best car for the long haul. I can only think of one platform that fits that description. I’ve always found the insurance logic of American insurance companies to be rather odd, basing a car on its accident record rather than on whether I would drive it recklessly. Hence, I had a 1970 Plymouth Fury with a 440 six pack and because it was a metallic brown 4 door hardtop with a vinyl roof, my insurance (in 1996) was $300 a year less than for my previous 1991 Civic. If I remember, they didn’t ask what was under the hood, and I didn’t tell.
Since I have emigrated to the UK (where Panthers are very hard to come by), I tend to hold the view that some cars are built to last and others aren’t. This is something we only learn over time. Its worth buying a well maintained- (from an owner with OCD who keeps a diary in addition to a service history) Mercedes w126 or Volvo 240 with low miles, as these are easy to repair and have a good reputation for 500K+ mile lifespan. Here we get the more ‘basic’ models than in the states, and parts are as cheap as Panther parts are back home. However, I wouldn’t touch a modern version of either make with a bargepole. I can not think of any car made after 1995 that is available in the UK that I think would be a reasonable long-term/lifetime ownership proposition.
I don’t recall whether the VIN, in 1970, indicated how the car was equipped or not (as it does now). But the insurance company’s loss experience with people owning 26-year old classics was probably pretty good. On the other hand, had you owned that car in 1970, I guarantee you would have paid a lot more to insure it than say, a Ford Pinto.
The old cars’ virtue was simplicity and thick sheet metal. That’s true of both the Volvo you mention and the Mercedes (my dad was a Volvo guy from 1970 on; and my son-in-law drives a 240D. Even my dad’s penultimate Volvo (a 740) which he gave to one of my kids, was pretty simple. Sadly, the interior was crap (it feel apart in lots of ways) as was the exterior paint (which melted off the primer coat). That was the only reason I didn’t pop for a new catalytic converter at 140K miles.
Volvo 240 & Plymouth Fury? It would have been good advice back in 1995.. But we’re in 2012 now. These cars are all at the stage where they cannot be considered daily drivers.
If you said a 1997 Ford Crown Vic that would perhaps make more sense.
11. Whenever possible, opt for vehicles with manual transmissions.
Just my personal, cement-headed 2 cents.
+1
I have no hard math to cite, but it wouldn’t surprise me if slushboxes were among the top 3 components in terms of problems and the cost involved with repairing vehicles.
Problems with manual transmissions are virtually unheard of, by comparison.
I always prefer manual transmissions as well; however, I’ll play devil’s advocate here with regard to long-term running costs.
With an automatic, there is a chance you may have to replace it. Odds of replacement vary by manufacturer and service history. Cost of replacement averages $4k to $5k (this is just a guess).
With a manual, clutch replacement is inevitable. Time interval of clutch replacement varies by driving habits and conditions, as well as engine power. This is going to cost about $1k. You may own the car long enough to see the clutch replaced twice. The second time you should think about the flywheel as well. Cost can go up quickly when you get into dual-mass flywheels that can’t be resurfaced.
Now let’s say you buy a used car with about 75k miles, but the previous owner sucked at driving and a self-adjusting clutch masked the problem on the test drive. You have to replace the clutch almost immediately. Hang on to the car for a while, and you could be replacing the clutch again, this time with the flywheel as well.
Even if you are that unlucky, the cost will probably be slightly less than if a slushbox implodes on you. Unfortunately, clutch replacement is inevitable, while the slushbox might turn out to be fine. As an aside, Subaru manual transmissions have a reputation as being made of glass, and even the much celebrated Honda manuals have a reputation for popping out of 3rd gear.
I’m a manual transmission guy myself, mostly for fun and partly because of durability. I don’t think the durability upside is as much of a layup as it is often made out to be though.
Depending on the vehicle it can be well under to replace the clutch, and depending on driving style you ought to be getting 100k from a clutch easily if not 150k.
To get maximum life from an auto trans you’d spend at least half as much servicing it as on clutches in the same timeframe.
I’ve spent more replacing clutches and addressing things like a leaky slave cylinder on the manual transmission cars that I have had than I have ever spent on automatics. And for a daily driver, automatics are just easier to live with generally, especially in rush hour traffic etc.
Two things come to mind in responce:
1. I can, and have replaced a clutch in my garage. Usually less than $200 in parts, an afternoon of my time. I cannot rebuild an automatic in my garage. The least miles I have ever gotten out of a clutch do to normal wear and tear is 180K. I have had to do a couple due to oil contamination (British cars…)
2. The newer and fancier the automatic, the more likely it is to go (very) expensively bang. Today’s 5-6-7-8-9(!) speed automatics are not nearly as long-lived as the old 3spd or 4spd jobs from 15 years ago. And then there is the whole “lifetime fill” transmission fluid debacle.
“Today’s 5-6-7-8-9(!) speed automatics are not nearly as long-lived as the old 3spd or 4spd jobs from 15 years ago.”
Evidence please.
I partially agree with “brand means nothing”. I pity whoever bought my 05 Honda minivan lemon; I replaced it with a decent old Dodge.
9. When it comes to cars it’s almost always better to fall in love again, than find a new lover.
My thougts exactly in buying a brand new car with 5 year payments. 1st 5 years own it like a new car and then the second 5 years own it like a used car for 10 year ownership.
10. The future may be modular.
When the powertrains quit on the two cars I mentioned, I’ll just put in a new powertrain. Everything in a car can be replaced.
At what cost though? I maintained the beater Neon from brand new through to 267,000 miles before I sold it for $500. People told me that if I had had a Nissan, Honda, Toyota I would have gotten 500,000 miles out of the same maintenance activities. Problem with replacement of whole systems is the cost unless can you do it yourself. And the rest of the car needs to be in good shape rust and damage wise. Even doing the work yourself, nobody wants to loan you the $4000k to upfit a new engine, transmission, cv axles, etc into a 14 year old vehicle. I know, I tried with the beater Neon.
Speaking about modular cars what ever happened to the vapor like auto company Carbon Motors which is/was supposed to make modular cars for law enforcement?
Actually the past was modular. For example with air-cooled VW engines. These are literally plug-n-play: 4 bolts, a fuel line, throttle cable and a couple of wires.
On the VW bus (which uses the same engine as the bug) all you need is a floor jack to slide the engine out.
#7 True, true, true.
It’s a lesson I finally learned from my mother, who would wait for years while she saved to buy a premium appliance, or expensive hand-made furniture. When my parents inherited what was left of my paternal grandparents’ estate, some of what they inherited was furniture that is irreplaceables hand-made by craftsmen in Quebec at the turn of the previous century. My mother spent what amounted to the cost of buying new quality furniture to repair the couches and chairs, but they will be passed down to myself, and then to my son, and it will outlast him. It brings us all joy and happiness – it’s best described as Eastern Quebec missionery style; simple and elegant, and indescribeably beautiful.
1. Certified means nothing
-Certified means getting an extended warranty. The warranty is probably expensive and not worth. In those situations, buying new may be a better option.
2. Neither do brands
-No way. Absolutely not. A brand is ultimately just a form of reputation, and for the most part, reputations are earned and deserved. Of course, if you can spot an exception, then you may be in for a pleasant surprise.
3. Most accidents are overrated.
-Not sure what that means, but they definitely reduce the value of a car, and they should.
4. If you don’t know the owner, you’re buying a stranger.
-Absolutely right. And it may be true even if you do know the owner.
5. The car market thrives on debt and stupidity.
-Anything that is expensive will involve some combination of both.
6. Most car reviews are sinuoustic trash.
-Most of those that are printed in newspapers are fluff. The buff books can provide a good sense of how a car drives, but not necessarily a good sense of how it is to live with it or how likely it is to break. Consumer Reports actually handles the practicalities quite well, which is exactly what makes it a snooze to read.
7. The goal with car buying is not to be rational. The goal is to be happy.
-“Being happy” should not involve overpaying. When I hear this sort of maxim from salesmen, my instinct is to check to make sure that I haven’t been pickpocketed.
8. The best car to own is the one you can maintain yourself
-As technology evolves, this is becoming more of an anachronism. And most people will never bother to learn much about car repair, anyway.
9. When it comes to cars it’s almost always better to fall in love again, than find a new lover.
-Maybe. We seem to be reaching a point at which cars are becoming something similar to computers, i.e. they don’t age gracefully, and are becoming more disposable. So we may keep them longer, but we’ll be less nostalgic when we bid them adieu.
10. The future may be modular.
-I doubt it, for similar reasons to #9.
#5 and #7 seem to be at odds with each other.
When you lease a car, yes, you don’t own anything at the end, but for the period you’ve leased it you’ve had the car that made you happy.
When you finance a car you don’t truly own it either until the note is paid in full, so if you know that you’ll be wanting something new in a few years, leasing can make a lot of sense.
In terms of getting the most for your money the best decision may be to buy used and hold onto a car for a decade, but if driving a $40,000 car while making payments that would buy a $25,000 car is what it takes to make you smile, leasing is the way to go.
I don’t agree with #3. Accidents do matter, even if everything gets repaired well. As previously noted, it’s never quite the same afterwards.
I couldn’t agree more on #5. Rabid consumerism as it’s worst (except maybe cell phones). Leasing is perhaps one of the most popular worst deals out there.
I slightly disagree with #8. It doesn’t matter who maintains it; it just needs to be easy and innexpensive to maintain. And possibly more important is that it IS maintained on a regular basis.
What about this one: I prefer a well-taken-care-of high mileage car to a pristine super-low mileage example.
Cars are machines, and machines are meant to be used. If a car has seen constant use by someone that has properly maintained it, I’ll take that over a garage queen that hasn’t been touched. Worn seats/steering wheels can be replaced, and they’re certainly less expensive than residue build-up and cracking seals throughout the car.
Agree about that! I bought a low mile 97 Altima in 2004, it sat a lot in 7 years. But, I put 20k miles on it in a year, and it seemed like the car aged rapidly, with oil leaks, noises and rattles. But got good trade in since ‘low miles’!
Cars are not ‘resting’ if they sit for months, they are dry rotting.