There used to be a long line of cars going in the direction of my childhood home.
My mom, bless her heart, used to observe the speed limits with enough zeal to make Ralph Nader blush. “Do we drive 25 miles per hour? No! We drive 20. That way we are always obeying the law!” Needless to say, I have managed to steer free and clear of her driving habits for well over 20 years. She thinks I’m a control freak… when the truth is she’s just too damn slow.
The slow issue got me thinking about speed limits back in the bad old days of the 1980’s. Between reading various auto magazines at the back of my high school classes, I used to daydream about a better society. Not about serving your fellow man or envisioning world peace. But one where drivers like my mom would just get the hell out of my way. One where the observance of all motoring laws would be based on reason and logic, rather than the short-term needs of a ravenous revenue seeking police state.
A beautiful driving utopia where asphalt and heavier right feet would march in unison towards a quicker commute. Where speed limits would be anywhere between 10 mph to 20 mph higher than today’s superficially low limits. Where a speed limit would indeed become a speed limit.
I realize now in the year 2012 that one man’s 65 mph remains another man’s 85 mph. But why don’t we split the difference at say, 80 mph, and have that slow driver stay to the right where they belong? Why not have those sensory deprived speeds of 25s to 30s become truly safer 35s to 40s? But then have them be limits?
There are obviously a very long line of impediments that would get in the way of it. Insurance companies. Glorified public service organizations. The burdensome thousands of police traps that already dot our fair land. Not to mention my own mother. Maybe even your mother too.
But what if? What if we could have speed limits that encouraged a healthier respect for all the laws within our country? Would such a place be a libertarian paradise? Or would it just be a mild enhancement of today’s driving world where thousands of officers still spend a disproportionate amount of their time on the road?
Today’s question is two-fold, and not easy. Should speed limits be raised upwards and become true limits, and who should set them?
I suspect that the average measured speed on most streets and highways would be a reasonable limit. That would eliminate the idiots on both sides of the current limit. But your utopia requires an educated driving population, and that simply isn’t going to happen. What do you need to know and be able to do to get a driver’s license? Parallel park? When was the last time you saw anything like lane discipline? I think drivers in Mexcico are better at that.
The design speed for most roads is considerably higher than posted limits. Other factors like decision sight distance, driveways, intersections, businesses, school zones and pedestrian crossings lower the optimal posted speed limit.
On many roads, though, the posted limit is within range of the 90th percentile of prevailing speeds. Most accidents are at intersections, so that’s where the revenue enhancement effort is.
If you think a limit on one stretch of road is too slow, you may not be taking into account the timing of traffic signals before and after that stretch, that serves to meter traffic and prevent localized gridlock. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been passed by a slaloming driver on the freeway, only to end up sitting alongside him/her/it at an intersection a few miles off the freeway minutes later. Sometimes going faster doesn’t get you there any quicker.
IIRC, I’ve heard that traffic engineers sometimes use the 85th percentile speed (rather than the 50th percentile speed) as a starting point for recommending a speed limit.
Of course, their entire profession comes in to play in designing the road and recommending the speed limit, but using the 85th percentile (assuming that 15% of drivers drive too fast) is about right from my non-expert perspective.
I see another of my comments is being moderated. I need to stop using words like “*d*ot”.
There’s the 85th percentile rule for setting speed limits, assuming that your fellow drivers aren’t all speed freaks. Or moving chicanes.
I don’t get too worked up about speed limits anymore — enforcement here isn’t that draconian, and the road quality here is lousy enough that you wouldn’t want to be going that fast anyway.
Most people are unaware of how long it takes to stop their car at a given speed. Going faster dramatically increases that distance. If a driver is going very fast then additional space between the car in front of them must be maintained and we all know that doesn’t happen.
If you are on a clear road on a nice day with miles of visibility have at it. But in traffic, rain, at night, etc speeds need to be slower.
Some states had signs that said reasonable and safe recommended speed at your discretion, or something to that effect. I guess one man’s idea of reasonable differs from another by a great deal.
Speed limits are based on the needs of each community. That’s good.
The problem is that you don’t care to live or drive through the community – you are on your way to work, school, church, bank, store, department store, hardware store, friend’s house, hospital, veternarian, cemetery, day care, barber – etc.
If your driving needs were limited within ONE community, then you would probably not have a need to speed. You would be able to get wherever you need to be within ten minutes.
Instead, we race through miles of communities. We don’t simply live within a single community. We don’t care who lives in the suburbs or towns we blow through – except our own.
I have discovered that living in a city of 100,000 away from any other city or town of any size slowed me down tenfold. I can get anywhere I need to be in 15 minutes, tops – without speeding. No rush hours, not pushy rude drivers, (including me), no problems.
So, setting the right speed limit, or raising the speed limit to make your race to wherever is NOT the correct answer. It is realizing that you are speeding through someone’s neighborhood and your need to get to some stupid place you think you need to get to within ten minutes — is the problem.
Limit how far you drive on your daily commutes, or accept the adult responsibilties of driving.
I don’t care what the speed limit is, if it’s ENFORCED CONSISTENTLY.
It’s 55 on most of the major roadways outside of Chicago and people go 75-85 all the time. If you try to go, say, 50, you are at serious risk of causing an accident. In the north suburbs there is very little enforcement. When there IS suddenly some police presence, people slam on the brakes…sometimes causing an accident as well.
They need to make the speed limit 75-80 OR actually enforce it at 55. If you want to enforce 55 with an iron fist I’d be happy to get a rebel 250 for my commute & enjoy it at that speed. If you want to let us go 80, then yay! I’ll speed up in my sports car.
As it is now, you have the worst of both worlds — go slow & cause an accident or go fast & get a ${LARGE} ticket by some hidden cop.
Because of this, I’ve moved most of my commute over to route41 which is 45-55 and there is enough traffic that the speed limit is mostly observed (I also save $1.90 in tolls each way & driving 45 vs something faster significantly saves me gasoline as well).
It’s a shame that 2 years ago they added another entire 30 miles of lane expanding the highway so traffic can move faster, but kept the speed limit the same.
Amen. Worst of both rules. The Rules of Road book enforces lane discipline, and the police enforce absolute speeds. Conflicting written laws and irregular enforcement.
Our tour bus driver in Germany was randomly chosen to surrender his speed indicator. If at any time it showed he exceeded the speed limit, he got a ticket.
Some people are for absolutle driving freedom. I am for fair, clear and consistent rules. Then at least I know what the playing field is.
I agree completely. Here in Virginia, the speed limit on the interstates has been raised from 60/65, to 65/70. Woohoo, thanks, Gov. Interestingly, where people used to fly past me doing 85, they now poke along at 70mph. There is some kind of reverse psychology at work, apparently. It would be lovely if the police would agree to quit setting up speed traps by enforcing arbitrarily low speed limits, all the while idling in their lovely V-8 cockpits for hours at a time. No disrespect to law enforcement, honestly. I just think most police officers joined the force hoping to bust drug dealers and take violent criminals off the streets, not to write big fat tickets to bolster the gov’t infrastructure.
I am not sure if it is reverse psychology as much as VSP getting a reputation (all along the East Coast) for being some of the most aggressive when it comes to speed enforcement. When I am booking down (or up) 95, I always know its time for cruise control when I hit the VA state line.
I live right in the middle of the state and my commute takes me 50miles up and down I95 everyday.
God knows I don’t want to jinx myself here, but I pass troopers all the time going around 10mph over or so. That’s about my limit though, and over 80 is reckless driving. Too many variables to get thrown out of court for a few mph’s over; they’re looking to write some big-time tickets.
That’s because of the Virginia mentality on motor vehicle speed enforcement:
1. Radar detectors are illegal.
2. Every county deputy has a radar gun in his cruiser.
3. There are no limits as to the situation for a radar based arrest (shooting forward, shooting backwards, moving, stopped, etc.).
4. Any county deputy may enforce traffic on any road (no ‘Interstates limited to state police’ like in some states).
5. Radar detectors are not only illegal, but when a potential law change has come up in the state legislature, you can count on a parade of county sheriffs to decry the loss of revenue that the county cannot afford. (At least their honest – when talking to politicians.) And then the legislature votes the bill down.
The cops here prefer their fish well barrelled and completely unarmed when shooting.
Over 80 is reckless driving? Always, necessarily?
You sure don’t live where I do, that much I know.
And that is why I do all I can to avoid driving through the commonwealth of Virginia. Horrible drivers (NoVA) combined with unreasonable, revenue generating, arbitrary speed enforcement. Maryland is almost as bad but least in MD, I sort of felt they enforced the speed limit with in the spirit of the law.
Have they found that VA ban on radar detectors unconstitutional yet?
“The cops here prefer their fish well barrelled and completely unarmed when shooting.”
That seems to extend to all aspects of police work in VA. I’m so glad I GTFO’d.
I spend a lot of time on the dreaded 64 commute from Hampton Roads to Greater Richmond, and I usually set my cruise at 7 or 8 over and Smokey doesn’t seem to care. I think anything less than 10 or 12 over isn’t even financially worth giving a ticket over. So whenever I do see someone pulled over, I can imagine that they were booking it. I outgrew my need for speed in 2004 when I got hit with 92 in a 45. Very costly reality check.
Yeah i too can verify that VA is no nirvana when it comes to speeding!
In Texas, it is safe to add 5 mph to any limit (except, perhaps a school zone) without incurring the ire of the fuzz. Most state limits are fairly rational with the 5 mph added.
What really gets me is the low town and county limits. I live near a busy old state ranch-to-market road which is curvy, hilly, and has no shoulders. That road has a 55 limit, everyone drives 60, and it is lightly patrolled. From that road, I turn off on a new, fairly straight and level county road with turn lanes, wide shoulders, a 40 mph limit, and frequent cruising deputies. When asked, the county whines that “the residents wanted a lower limit.” However, I don’t see locals driving any more slowly than anyone else.
I recall a discussion within a group of parents at a Little League Baseball practice about people driving too fast. I quipped about some of the artificially low speed limits and was lambasted by two of the mothers for, basically, wanting to kill children.
Imagine my delight when, the next day, one of those mothers was tailgating me in a school zone and then down a 1 mile section of neighborhood street. In the school zone I was right on the 20 mph limit, but outside of that, I was at about 33-35 mph.
I confronted her about that at the next practice. She made excuses about being in a hurry, but shut up when I asked if she was trying to kill children that morning.
My point, Pahaska, is that many of those who whine about the “crazy speeders” are, themselves, “crazy speeders”. They just want everyone else to slow down.
George Carlin nailed it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkxaF5Pq5D8
From a highway engineering standpoint, the purpose of a speed limit is to provide guidance about the flow of traffic to those who are unfamiliar with the road. Hence, the point of the 85th percentile concept — usually, the safe range of speed is determined by the flow of traffic, rather than by enforcement of an arbitrary limit.
Most drivers will drive at speeds at which they are comfortable, with little regard for the limit. Set a limit high, and few will exceed it. Set it low, and many will exceed it. If you want high compliance rates, then set high limits and you’ll get your wish.
So, the answer to the question “Should Speed Limits Be Limits?” is no. If there is a need to slow drivers down in a particular location, then traffic calming is more useful than is a change in the sign.
+1. Whole-road engineering FTW!
The wife and I got a speeding ticket each this weekend driving to my parents – mine was 84 in a 65 and hers was 85 in a 65. The cops were out in force this weekend.
I don’t mind low limits on local roads in town. There are strips of the FDR where the 40 mph limit is justified, but others where it’s absolutely ridiculous (the NB Brooklyn Bridge strip is just for revenue raising).
But what really annoys me is 65 on the highways. Why can’t we make it 75 or 80 at this point? My wife and I drive upwards of 90 in Europe all the time and it’s not as though it’s a very unsafe environment. I think the limit on the interstates and major highways does need to be increased above 55 and 65 in the country in NY at this point.
Counterpoint…once was merging onto the A8 in Germany just outside of Karlsruhe heading towards my (then) office in Pforzheim. Two cars ahead of me, the driver had decided to take a rather leisurely approach speed to the on-ramp. Racing up alongside him came a Polizist on his BMW motorcycle…he then began to (very visually) recommend to the driver to SPEED UP! I marvelled that this was a sight you’d likely never see in the US!
The problem with raising speed limits is that somebody will always then want to go 5-10 MPH faster. You then face the reality of having to heavily enforce the speed limit, bringing us full square back to the issue at hand. My thought is to enforce speed limits where it is a huge safety issue (in towns/cities…etc…) and out on the open highway, adopt a more safety-centric position of driver behavior enforcement. Going 10 MPH faster on an empty highway is much less dangerous than weaving in and out and driving recklessly. But then, if we did that, we’d dry up the revenue stream for a majority of the police forces out there…
“The problem with raising speed limits is that somebody will always then want to go 5-10 MPH faster.”
Studies consistently show that changes in speed limits do little to change average traffic speeds. Increase a limit by 10 mph, and the average flow of traffic may increase by 1 mph — a 2 or 3 mph increase would be high. Lower the limit by the same amount, and you end up with a similar outcome, with perhaps a 1 mph reduction in average speeds.
I have trouble believing these studies. I’ve never been anywhere where anyone besides our mothers or hat wearing gentlemen drive at or below the posted limit.
I think that human nature (or at least my nature) is to do the speed limit plus whatever else you think you can get away with. If it’s low traffic highway, I’ll drive 10 khp over the limit, thinking that I’m not worth ticketing at that speed. If I’m in traffic that’s all going 20 over, I’ll do 20 over too. I’d drive 100 mph or more on low traffic highway if I wasn’t afraid of speeding tickets.
On twisty, unfamiliar roads, the speed limit can be a useful indicator. Usually those speed limits are also too low for anyone who’s not infirm.
“I’ve never been anywhere where anyone besides our mothers or HAT WEARING GENTLEMEN drive at or below the posted limit.”
Holy cow, that’s me!
srogers: I have trouble believing these studies. I’ve never been anywhere where anyone besides our mothers or hat wearing gentlemen drive at or below the posted limit.
Or, this proves that the limits on virtually all roads are underposted. Every reputable study that I’ve read confirms what Pch101 has said. Raising the speed limit has little effect on the speed that most people travel, primarily because most people are already exceeding it. Some people do drive faster – mainly, those people who really do obey the speed limit, and thus increase their speed when the limit is increased.
You don’t even need studies to show this. Just spend some time out West where the speed limit is 75mph. 95% of the traffic drives 70-75mph, just like here in the East where the speed limit is 65mph. Or 55mph. There are always going to be the outliers flying along, but most folks find 70-75 a comfortable pace in modern cars.
Of course, in Germany I found my car quite comfortable at 125mph, but I also trusted people to do a lot fewer stupid things around me. And I tried darned hard not to do anything stupid myself.
I would have trouble believing this as well. When the interstate speed limits were 55, I wouldn’t see many people going 80. Most would stick around 55 or a little over it. Now it has been raised to 70 mph in TX. Now 80 isn’t uncommon and people stick to 70 or a few mph over that.
“I think that human nature (or at least my nature) is to do the speed limit plus whatever else you think you can get away with.”
The funny thing about driving is that many of the beliefs that drivers hold about one another are wrong. These feelings are often strongly held, even though they are inaccurate.
Low speed limits tend to get violated. When they are set well below the flow of traffic, as was the case during the era of the 55 mph, then the flow of traffic will slow a bit, but not nearly enough to prevent the compliance rates from tumbling.
Compliance rates have improved since the elimination of the 55 mph limit. That improvement would suggest that drivers don’t just add a fixed margin to whatever the limit happens to be, otherwise the compliance rate would have stayed the same.
To all those who have trouble believing the studies, I also have trouble believing the Earth is round. I look out my window and see nothing but flat land. People keep telling me it just ain’t so.
Appreciate the bit of autobiography, Jack. Your mom explains everything? (Doesn’t everybody’s mom explain everything about them?)
“VD” hints at what I think should be the proper analysis: let’s talk about speed limits on limited access highways separately from speed limits on city or suburban streets.
In my mind, their should be real speed limits on city streets, not set by the “85th percentile” rule. The purpose of those limits is to ensure the safety of the people who live along them, whether backing out of a driveway, crossing the street with their kid, etc. People who live on city streets that are commuter arteries have a real problem when the rush hour surge hits. So, I’m for realistic speed limits on those streets, pretty rigidly enforced. Drivers on those streets are guests of the neighborhood and should be required to drive appropriately.
Freeways are another matter. Freeways are built for the cars that are on them. In an ideal world, there would be no posted speed limits, but drivers would be expected to drive at speeds that are reasonable and prudent for the conditions — which would mean slower in rain, fog, snow, or congested traffic (which, itself, is pretty much speed limiting). The problem with this is that enforcement would necessarily be subjective, and nearly every speeding ticket would have to go trial or be plea-bargained with the local DA . . . an expensive process for all involved. The next best thing, IMHO, is variable speed limits, which have been used for decades on the NJ turnpike and I see also on the Wilmington bypass in Delaware. This involves much more expensive signs and someone exercising judgement about the conditions.
What is unsafe is large speed differentials in traffic. If you are driving 60 and someone behind you is driving 100, he’s closing you from the rear at 40 mph. There’s an excellent chance that, even if you check your rearview mirror before pulling into the left lane to pass, you’re not going to see the 100 mph guy because of a curve or even if you do, your ability to estimate his closing speed (40 mph) accurately is pretty limited. So, to eliminate that, and recognizing that most trucks are capable of only 65-70 on rolling terrain (and some appear to have governors set at 70), I would set an absolute limit of 90. The second thing that has to happen is that police have to start vigorously enforcing lane discipline. As it is right now, state laws about passing on the right are not uniform. Some permit it and some don’t. Passing on the right should be prohibited, drivers should not be permitted to use the left lane except for passing. And drivers in the left lane should move to the right whenever a faster-moving vehicle closes them from the rear, regardless of whether the closing driver is driving the speed limit or not. Under most states’ laws, speeders do not have the right of way, which means, technically speaking, that someone doing the speed limit in the left lane can just sit there.
And while the government is busy promulgating standards for all kinds of collateral stuff — like CHMSLs, back up cameras and such — why doesn’t the government promulgate minimum braking distance standards for passenger vehicles (cars and SUVs)? One of the many reasons I hate driving the Honda Pilot that my wife insisted on buying, is that, on the highway, I just don’t get the feeling that the thing will stop all that quickly. If the government is going to make me pay for a backup camera so I won’t take out a few random toddlers when backing out of my driveway, how about it asking me to pay more money for bigger, ventilated brake discs on this two-ton behemoth that my wife insists on driving?
Ah, the first-world problem of passing on the right/left. When there are so many cars on the road that you can’t keep a lane free for passing, it becomes an moot point.
Where I live & drive, the lane you choose is based not on speed but on where you want to go: Need to take an upcoming exit = get in the right lane. Don’t need to take that exit = get out of the right lane so that those who do need it can use it. Here, you can’t change lanes whenever you want because there’s almost always someone already there.
Optimal hwy safety occurs when there is uniform speed. If that’s the case, the whole fast lane/slow lane is irrelevant. If you are going too slow that you need to get out of the way – you need to get off the hwy & take a different route. And if you are going too fast that you need people to get out of your way, you are going too fast and need to adjust to the flow of traffic.
As for laws prohibiting “passing on the right,” we don’t have them here, so I don’t think I understand the issue. If it means no driving in an open lane when someone is going slower in a lane to the left, that’s just plain dumb. The lane is meant for your use, so use it. If the law is “keep right except to pass,” that’s fine, but if a person doesn’t obey, it’s their problem, not the person passing them.
Some say Jack Baruth poops speed limit signs after eating water-cooled Porsches.
It’s been said that kids wear Superman Underoos when they go to bed. Superman wears Chuck Norris Underoos when he goes to bed. Few know that Chuck Norris wears Jack Baruth Underoos. Jack Baruth wears the blood of low-down sell-out, water-cooled Porsche engineers to bed.
I have no idea what that has to do with speed limits, except that I’m sure Jack Baruth hates and kills them. And that’s all the inspiration I need.
The real problem is that people’s cars perform far higher than the signs are designed to allow for. It takes me just 2 seconds to get to 40 mph from a standstill so I’m already violating the limit the second I take off. Considering cars accelerate and brake faster than ever before, I’d say the limit signs are there merely to catch people speeding and generate revenue.
You do realize that the pedals on your car aren’t on/off switches, right? You can pick throttle positions between “idle” and “mashed”?
I ride a 150hp, 99ft/lb, 150+mph motorcycle. In spite of its ability to hit freeway speeds by the end of my driveway, I do not find it hard at all to pick my acceleration and gently idle down the road at 20mph past the elementary school on my way to work.
Although cars are getting more and more capable every day, I guarantee you that your reflexes and reaction times are NOT. In fact, using the people on my daily drive to work as a benchmark, they’re getting much worse (distraction and isolation are my best guess at assigning blame). I was cut off twice, lane-changed into once and got to watch an inattentive Jeep nearly run over a small sedan all in one five mile commute today. This is in a town rated as having the safest drivers in the nation (Ft. Collins, CO).
These are not people who need speed limits lifted just because their base-model Honda has more power today than my mom’s GTO did in 1970.
I am curious about the motorcycle community always feeling “cut off”. I am currently battling loud motorcycles in my community and the phrase “cut off” surfaces with surprising frequency. Can they all be valid claims? Maybe there’s a psychological multiplier from feeling un-caged, albeit more vulnerable?
It seems like the concept of “blind spot” is difficult to understand for many. No matter what vehicle you’re driving and what is next to you, whether it has two, four, or eighteen wheels, mirrors cannot fully substitute for shoulder checks – and it is important never to hang out in another vehicle’s blind spot.
There’s no question that motorcyclists do get cut off rather frequently. On my bike, I found people moving into my space or not yielding to my right of way more often than when in my car. There’s no question that subconsciously people see the bike as less of a threat and don’t worry about a collision. As an aside, the “Loud pipes save lives” meme is retarded; louder exhausts transmit very little noise forward and simply leave residents and drivers behind them with an ear-splitting wail. I went out of my way to keep my bikes as silent as possible. Stock pipes at WOT and 12,000 RPM are more than loud enough anyway.
That said, I find that traffic on a bike is less stressful and more fun. Being smaller, more maneuverable and infinitely quicker really comes in handy as long as you’re watching your surroundings like a hawk (and have enough luck that no one does anything too stupid). In a way, I’d feel “above” everyone else, because I could do things that they couldn’t. Rather than get mad when they moved into my space, I simply looked at them as randomly moving objects that I needed to anticipate and avoid as I made my way through traffic.
@bryanska: I ride a 100% stock sport-tour bike and dislike loud pipes as much as the next guy, be they on 2 wheels or 4. In my opinion, loud pipes don’t do anything but annoy neighbors and compensate for… lack of displacement, let’s say.
I define “being cut off” as having to actively get on my brakes to avoid removing a driver’s bumper stickers when they merge into my lane. It ain’t psychological – I’m just as protective about my personal space when I’m in a car.
Your average driver simply doesn’t *see* motorcycles. When I decided to get a motorcycle license and took the MSF safety class, it was like a light flipped on around me – all of a sudden I could see motorcycles EVERYWHERE where there had been NONE not a week before. That absolutely scared the sh*t out of me: what had I done by accident in all the years that I DIDN’T see motorcycles??
My MSF teacher gave us the advice that we should ride as though every automobile on the road was *actively* going to try and kill us – he was right. That’s the only attitude that will keep a motorcyclist alive when they’re sharing the road with cars that just don’t see you. After a few years you can more or less tell who’s going to do something dumb at you – they’re texting, chatting on their phone, looking at maps, tailgating the car ahead of them, they’ve got headphones on… these people are going to try to kill you the next time they want to change a lane ’cause they’re not going to look or they’re only going to look for car-shaped objects.
I always wondered about the whole “loud pipes save lives” bumper stickers. I mean if that were true, that motorcycles need to be loud so that car drivers will notice them and not hit them, then wouldn’t motorcylces want that protection always, not just when they are accelerating?
Maybe the right solution would be to require motorcycle riders to have a bullhorn attached to a recording that constantly announced in a loud voice: “I am a fat, balding, middle-aged man and I am desperate for attention!”
You know, when I get stuck behind an idiot going 30 in a 35 it never occured to me that they are really, really trying to stay below the speed limit. I just tought they were dumb. Interesting.
I wish people would just go whatever the sign says.
John
Anyone ever driven the 75 between Valdosta and Atlanta? Speed limits are laughed at there. If you want to do 85 MPH in the fast lane, and STILL have tailgaters lining up behind you 6-deep, taking turns passing you on the right before flying off on their merry way, you’ll like the 75.
I’m having trouble imagining a scenerio where people would be able to pass you on the right, and you not being in the wrong…
The left lane is the passing lane. It is for PASSING. If you’re in it, and there’s nothing to your right, you’re doing something wrong, needlessly holding up traffic and setting up an unsafe situation. I don’t care what the speed limit is; leave that to the police to enforce.
I love watching traffic when I’m in Germany. While we cry like little girls about our freedoms to do what we want, including sitting in the passing lane, braking and changing lanes without looking or signalling, the good Germans focus on taking responsibility for how they drive, and the fact that others have the right to get where they’re going, too. The result is a system where people don’t stress, because everyone follows the rules, and they get where they’re going quickly, safely and efficiently. Having a truck go 62 MPH in the right lane and a Porsche at 125 in the left is no problem when everyone is doing what they’re supposed to.
This is something too many people have trouble understanding about lanes: if you are being passed on the right, it is your fault. Those doing the passing might seem like lunatics to you, but if they had space to get in the right lane and go around you, you should have gotten into that space first.
It’s the damn law. Or at least it is here.
Here’s a scenario. I was passing a car on the left when the driver decided to speed up (as usual). A fast-approaching car from behind changes to the right lane (without signaling) before I have space to move to the right lane. Should I have tried to squeeze into the narrowing space between them, forcing the driver behind me to brake hard and/or change lanes abruptly? Should a drag race ensue? No way. I let the driver behind pass on the right. I call that being boxed out.
modern physics should deter anyone driving above 70MPH. i dont care what the crash statistics say, you are compounding your risk of death every MPH above 65. Just because your car’s transmission makes it seem you can loaf along at 80MPH doesn’t mean you should, and expect your parts to not be scraped up with a shovel after losing control of your vehicle.
Modern physics or ancient physics, why is 65 the magic number? Even 55 seems awfully fast if you’ve never gone over 45 before.
Except that there is no proof that exceeding 70 mph on limited access highways increases the number of fatal accidents.
Here in Pennsylvania, the speed limit is 65 mph, and most people drive 70-75 mph, with quite a few traveling at 80+ mph. The death rate, meanwhile, is at a record low figure.
Around here, most fatal accidents are the result of drunk driving (and not wearing saftey belts), or driving 55 mph on two-lane country roads at night. They are not the result of people driving 80 mph on the Pennsylvania Turnpike or I-81.
Also, if I recall correctly, most fatal accidents happen at speeds below 50 mph. That certainly seems to be the case around here.
That’s been my experience here in Western PA. 70-75 on the interstates.
Most fatalities are alcohol related or when speed-related, on a two-lane where the limit may have once been 55 but was lowered.
Unofficially, cops don’t stop you here until you’re 15+ over, whether state police radar or local cop Vascar (the two lines across the road).
I honestly would argue for leaving it be in town and on state highways. But during the day time, in good weather, on the interstate, our interstates should be like the autobon. Take the current speed limit signs and make them night time only. I already drive a speed based on conditions.
The thing we keep forgetting about the autobahn is that it, like many other Continental freeways, was designed to largely bypass the cities it towns it serves. The norm is to have intermediate roads (with intermediate speeds) connect surface streets to the autobahn.
On the other hand, our Interstates pass through the center of almost all major U.S. cities, and exit directly onto the slow-speed surface streets in most cases. That speed differential is too great to make unlimited freeway speeds a good idea. Many would be creamed trying to speed up to “autobahn speed” on the U.S. Interstates. Many would also be loved-from-behind while trying to slow down for the exit ramps.
The limitation is not on the cars, or even necessarily on drivers’ abilities, but on the infrastructural design of Ike’s Interstates.
I spent two weeks in Germany recently in a 90hp Kia. The German freeway system is NOT an entirely speed-limit-free road. Like US highways, the German freeway system does interact with cities and towns pretty regularly.
Stretches between cities may be unregulated, but believe me: as soon as they get near a city the speed limit signs come back up and people listen.
I felt safer driving in Germany with a 90hp car than in the US with twice the power because drivers’ licenses in Germany are not handed out like candy. You actually have to *know how to drive*, it costs a *LOT* of money to get a license and people *follow the rules*. The US is NOT like this.
That’s not to say that there aren’t some stretches of road that couldn’t stand to be higher – the barren wastelands of Kansas, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana where the road is straight flat as a roadkill rattler and there’s no exits (let alone towns) for ten or twenty miles at a stretch.
I disagree. The infrastructure card gets played a lot when comparing the US Interstate to the German Autobahn, and I don’t get it. Eisenhower’s Interstate was based on Hitler’s Autobahn – do you think it’s a coincidence that the project was conceived not long after the Allies raided German patent offices following WWII?
From what I’ve seen of the Interstate system, it’s mostly well set up for high speed driving. The Autobahn definitely has its share of shorter entrance and exit ramps, and no one is expected to be able to get up to 100 MPH by the time they merge, especially given the lower performance of cars driven in Germany compared to the US. Not all sections of it are unlimited either, and variable speed limits are used heavily to account for different traffic and road conditions. Even on unlimited stretches of the ‘bahn, trucks, busses and vehicles pulling trailers are limited to 100 km/h (62 MPH). Drivers simply know how to practice proper lane discipline and know how to deal with high closing speeds. As I posted somewhere above, it doesn’t matter if you’re doing 60 and the other guy is doing 125, as long as everyone stays in their proper lane. Over here we think that an unlimited speed limit means, “Drive however fast you want regardless of conditions or who’s ahead of you trying to merge/exit the highway, or passing a doddering delivery truck.” German drivers are more sensible than that.
It’s not the cars, it’s not the infrastructure, it’s the lack of skill and the mentality of entitlement over responsibility in drivers, and competence of traffic enforcement, that are the problem with the driving culture in North America.
“do you think it’s a coincidence that the project was conceived not long after the Allies raided German patent offices following WWII?”
It was. These sorts of ideas were already in the works. The world’s first limited access highway was built decades earlier, in Long Island. (It was a private toll road and a commercial failure.) Prior to the end of World War II, the Pennsylvania Turnpike was in operation, and freeway construction had already occurred in Detroit and Los Angeles, with more being planned. (LA had hatched an elaborate plan for urban parkways in the 30s, many of which were never built.)
In terms of lane widths, etc., US and German motorways have much in common, of course. The difference is the ooncept — in Europe, their purpose is largely for intercity travel, while in the US, we use them commonly for both intercity and intracity travel.
One of the resulting design differences is in how they are routed. In the US, the interstates often travel through the city center and facilitate travel within the urban core, while in most of Europe, they bypass the core altogether or terminate at the perimeter of the core. In addition, the US roads have more interchanges to accommodate traffic that is traveling shorter distances.
To add to the above, this article describes a conflict between the Eisenhower administration (as represented by a General Bragdon), which envisioned the interstate system as being just that, with the agenda of B.D. Tallamy, the Federal Highway Administrator of that time, who believed that the system should support intraurban travel. You can see that the FHA won this one.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/bragdon.cfm
Here’s my idea. Go to any major city… my first pick would be Toronto. Get a group of people to drive at the exact speed limit, 100 KM/hr for Ontario’s capital, on the 401. Have them drive so they cover all lanes at exactly 100KM/hr (not polite I will admit).
Watch traffic turn into a complete and absolute mess. Maybe this will demonstrate that driving at the “speed limit,” which by law you can’t exceed in Ontario, just about shuts down the city.
Where else but in the world of motoring could we come up with so simple a solution as a speed limit that is absolutley unworkable.
Here you go!
http://youtu.be/1B-Ox0ZmVIU
+1,000,000,000. That video has restored my faith in future generations!!!
That’s hilarious. The same thing happens when the highway patrol is on the road. No one wants to pass, and it turns into a giant blockade.
Speed limits are not there for our safety any more, they are there to allow for revenue generation by municipalities. It’s laughable how often Cities game the system to put into place lower speed limits. We need a new paradigm for controlling speed, but the entrenched interests would kill any attempts.
I really have problems with any law that makes 95% of the population “criminals”.
On top of this, ever notice how your chances of getting stopped increase exponetialy if there are few-no other cars on the road, a time when a little more speed is most safe. And ever notice how the morons weaving through traffic ready to take out a few cars with one minor error stand next to no chance of getting stopped. Speed is an easy revenue earner, and a simple mantra for statal officials.
The price we pay for speed limits is greater lawlesness, if breaking this rule is so commonplace, and if so many otherwise law abiding citizens are “run through the system” then the barriers are removed. Speeding has been turned into the gateway crime, and it diminishes respect for goverment and law. Make a law everyone breaks and pretty soon everyone will be breaking the law. What are the broader societal consequences of this, and of treating citizens as criminals?
Lets remove federal funds for speed enforcement and allow states to set the rules, with some guidelines, ie no abritraily low limits for revenue.
@Boxerman, you just reminded me of the last speeding ticket I got. 80 mph in a 65 zone on the interstate on a clear beautiful sunny day and not a car in site save the trooper who was hidding behind a little rise in the road. Sigh. Hope the state of NM spent their 75 dollars well… (No I forgot turn on my detector that day.)
[Not] surprisingly, you can actually achieve the EPA fuel economy for your vehicle if you stick to the posted limit (meaning 55 – 65 mph, not the 75 mph of the Southwest US).
I tire of hearing people complain about lousy highway gas mileage when they set their cruise controls at 75 mph.
I’m not a hypermiler (I think they’re unsafe and ridiculous), but lately I have become interested in taking a more leisurely pace and getting better fuel economy by simply staying at the speed limit. Then you never have to worry about cops, or rationalizing how speeding is OK. Even on a 300-mile trip, you don’t save that much time by speeding.
Meh. I beat the EPA highway rating on my car by a good 3-4mpg on trips where I AVERAGE well over the 65mph speed limit. Buy an efficient car and don’t worry about it. I got only 1mpg less than EPA highway driving it in Germany, for that matter.
Assuming you drive what is in your Avatar, no wonder you get much better mileage going slowly – the aerodynamics of my garden shed, and a 2-mouse motor.
two words for your EPA well above 65mph: Horse sh!t. :)
Oh? Do YOU have personal experience on manual transmission e91 BMWs? It is not a difficult concept – tall gearing, efficient engine, and excellent aerodynamics. On my last trip Maine-Washington DC, I averaged 69mph and got 31mpg. The computer matches hand-figuring the mileage to within .5mpg. I’d be happy to post pictures after my next long trip.
I usually better the EPA rating by 1mpg in my suburban around-town driving. I don’t really do “city” driving, so no idea what that would be.
I second krhodes1 – if you don’t drive a s#!tbox with a crappy engine/transmission and poor aerodynamics then you can get away with 20% more speed with only a 5% penalty in economy.
For reference, my Buick Regal’s (nee Open Insignia) economy begins to tank at around 105 mph, while my Saturn ION (a s#itbox) tanks above 70 mph.
(deleted duplicate post was here)
lots of people here with lots to prove about exceeding EPA estimates, you have to justify the high transaction price you paid somehow I suppose LOL
I have to agree with krhodes1. My car is from 1985. Surprisingly, fueleconomy.gov actually still has stats about a car that old. They claim it should get 18mpg in the city, 24mpg hwy and 20mpg combined. My vehicle has never gotten numbers that bad.
I regularly make 230 mile one way trips up and down I-77, which has a speed limit of 65mph where I use it. I run at about 75-78mph, and regularly return 28+mpg. However, YMMV because of the way you drive. I don’t race to catch up with people bumper’s and then slam the brakes. Achieving good fuel economy is about good aerodynamics and fluid driver inputs as well as low weight. My vehicle weighs in at under 3000lbs even though it is a comfortable 5 passenger sedan. Oh yeah, this is all done with a car that had all of 110hp the day it rolled off the dealer lot. Without all that weight to carry around, I don’t need much power to get where I’m going.
My post was about people who complain about their mileage when speeding, not those who brag about it.
Yes, I drive an xB1, which is subject to the same laws of physics as any car. Driving it at the speed limit yields better fuel economy, and the same is true of any car regardless of horsepower, price, or aerodynamics. Sure, each car exhibits different ratios of energy spent between friction, aerodynamics, and engine efficiency, but slowing down improves fuel economy in any case.
If it were true that going slower ALWAYS increases economy, then the highest fuel mileage would be achieved when stopped. Reality is that the most economical speed varies widely based on the particular car. Slippery cars with relatively large engines and tall gearing do quite well at relatively high speeds – the Corvette being the usual example trotted out. My BMW is geared for a relaxed 130-140mph on the Autobahn – it is sipping fuel at US walking-pace highway speeds. Helped by the fact that I am a pretty smooth and relaxed driver (but NOT a slow one by any means). I have been pleasantly surprised by this cars efficiency – overall I am averaging only 1mpg less than my prior Saab 9-3SC, despite the Saab having a 3mpg advantage on the EPA test cycle. And I don’t spare the revs on the BMW, the wail of the six at high revs is quite addictive.
The EPA test is an approximation at best – for some cars it is spot on, for others it is a joke. For an opposite example, see that porky GM CUV-thing that allegedly breaks 30+ mpg on the EPA highway cycle (but owners complain they get nowhere near in the real world). There is no way on earth that in the real world that vehicle is going to do better than a lighter, more aerodynamic car with a MUCH more sophisticated engine on the highway.
I’m tired of people whining about a few MPG but spending $30,000 on a 300 hp family car. If you need to save gas that badly, it would be far more logical to buy a car with a smaller engine. Even 100 hp will generally let you go 100 MPH, and you won’t be holding up traffic in a car who will never reach more than 10% of its performance potential.
That said, as far as I’m concerned: buy whatever you want and go as slow as you want, as long as you practice proper lane discipline. It’s still everyone’s right to buy far more horsepower than they can use or afford, apparently.
On my neighborhood street, speed limit is an unobserved 25 mph. It runs parallel to a highway (55 mph.)
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve backed out, almost getting run over by a jerk holding 50 mph. When we both turn onto the freeway, I always pass that SOB within a mile (I’m holding 60 and the chick is going roughly the same pace she was on my street.)
I’ve replaced my mailbox countless times, seen overturned cars in my and my neighbors yards. The street isn’t wide for double-side parking, only has residences, parks, and churches on it. Something about it makes the soccer-moms treat it like the Nurburgring.
Fortunately, the city is aware. Hopefully in the next year we’ll have some chicanes and traffic tables. I’d like to stay in the home I’ve lived in for the past 10 years, but the rate of speed these soccer moms travel, it makes it unsafe to start a family here.
The 55 MPH limits on the toll roads around here are so terrible that I’m actually tempted to write a useless letter about it to the Expressway Authority.
Totally agree. This is an abuse of the term “limit”.
“Limit” should actually mean limit. Like, your Camry is limited to seat 5 people. You can’t legally sqeeze the 6th person in the back seat. You will definitely be fined if you do that and get caught.
If the police wants to enforce the speed limit, they should raise the limit high enough that fining every offender would be realistic.
If the police wants to use more discretion, just throw away the term “limit”. Use “Recommanded Speed” instead and fine those exceeding the recommandation by too much.
Sounds to me Steve like you need to visit the Isle of Man. For those of you who don’t know where that is, it’s wedged in the middle of the Irish Sea between mainland UK and Ireland. There are NO national speed limits on most roads outside of towns and villages. It’s PARADISE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_the_Isle_of_Man
Back when I was a pup, I had a friend who used to love driving his hopped-up Cutlass around town at the customary 5 to 10 MPH over the limit. One night, he came upon a group of kids who were carelessly wandering down the middle of an unlit section of road. Before he knew it, he’d’ hit one and killed them. A girl who was a classmate of my brother’s.
The local prosecutor went after my friend with both barrels of the law, charging him with speeding, reckless driving, DUI and manslaughter. The case dragged on for well over a year when a judge finally had the good sense to acquit him of all charges. It was a tragic accident, the kid shouldn’t have been wandering down the middle of the road, and in the end, the most my friend was guilty of was speeding.
Despite the acquittal, my friend was never the same after going through the prosecutor’s meat grinder. Outgoing and cheerful turned into depressed and withdrawn. That was all I needed to see. I never, ever wanted to be in his shoes, and I reformed my driving habits accordingly.
When I’m in town or on any road with a speed limit of less than 55 MPH, I do the speed limit. If someone else makes a stupid move, I both want to be able to stop in time and to not have my driving used as an excuse to destroy my life. Does it suck to drive that slow? Often it does, yes. That’s life, my friends… get over it and grow up.
The best part of doing the limit in town? I can relax. Fewer gray hairs from looking for cops hiding behind bushes, no speeding tickets, no insane increases in my insurance rates, and less likelihood of having to endure fishing expeditions by bored cops.
30 years of casual observation has proven to me that 5 to 10 over will usually only net you a few minutes less drive time when you reach your destination while significantly increasing the chance that you won’t be able to react in time if someone else does something stupid, like, say, wandering down the middle of an unlit road at night.
Driving on rural interstates or highways is a different kettle of fish that I’ll leave alone for now, except to say that most are engineered to be driven safely at 70 MPH in dry, daylight conditions. Put another way, 55 MPH: Fast enough to kill you, slow enough to make you think you’re safe.
Amen on all points.
Agree. I have this never ending argument with my wife — she drives like a banshee around town — tailgating, changing lanes, speeding up to catch the greenlights, etc. . . . but is something of a slow poke on the highway. Around town, I’m just the opposite: she accuses me of driving like an old lady because I’m pretty righteous with the speed limit (never even 5 over) and not always jockeying for position in traffic, etc. On the highway, I cruise either 5 over the limit or with the traffic, whichever makes most sense. If I’m bottled up by a bunch of slowpokes and see an opening, I’ll go for it and at high speed (for a brief period) . . . and I get accused of being a maniac.
But my basic theory is the same as yours: consider where you can do the most damage and then drive accordingly. The answer to that question is always on an urban or suburban street, especially where there are pedestrians around.
I don’t see a good answer.
Keep the money in traffic enforcement and you get what we have now. Unrealistic limits and volume based enforcement.
Take the money out and, municipal budgeting being what it is, most places will rapidly have no traffic enforcement at all.
Replacing revenue officers with revenue cameras adds consistency of enforcement. But dumb cameras don’t pick up real crimes like drunks and warrants. Smart cameras that could are a cure worse than the disease from a civil liberties perspective.
One oppurtunity I see for improvement without simultaneously breaking anything else is setting more consistent fines. Call everything short of demonstrably reckless driving – which should be criminal with the burden of proof on the state – the same 1 point and $100. The officer’s mood that afternoon should not enable a $300 swing on different ways to write up the same thing.
I really like the Italian/German speed limit system on freeways: A speed limit for each lane with a max and min. And a total min speed limit in the interstate system. This way you don’t have granny trying to merge going 35 on a 65 road and no lookie loos going under the speed limit on the left lane.
“Speeding” has two facets. The wrong speed can kill, be it too high or too low. Unfortunately, the enforcers look only at the high end.
Speed limits are the product of a mentality which says that a) I am smart and b) you are stupid. My intelligence informs me that some arbitrary number is the correct, safe speed for a particular stretch of roadway. You, being stupid, cannot be relied upon to come to that same conclusion, so I will put up a sign. This neglects the basic truth that people and their vehicles vary. A clapped-out U-Haul, towing an SUV on a car carrier, driven by a terrified and unskilled driver, has no business traveling at 80 mph (currently the fastest posted limits in the US that I’m aware of). A skilled driver in a newer sports car has no such issue. Generally, people are smart enough to realize this and adjust accordingly.
A side note: It has been mentioned here that people won’t speed up if you raise the limits, since they travel at whatever speed is comfortable anyway. I’d like to mention that I drive at whatever speed is low enough to avoid a ticket, and if you raise the limits, I’ll speed up.
As long as 90% of all people believe they are safer, if each and every speed limit is lowered (Sturgeon’s Law would apply) and the rest is doing nothing you will have the laws you already have.
“Prudent driving”, “reasonable speed” are gone as parameters.
We have an industry now (communities & companies combined) that can’t do without such predictable, measurable, automatically billable offenses and the income derived thereof.
Feel safe.
I’d respect speed limits much more if it felt like any other driving law got consistent enforcement.
Hell, I’d settle for the police not going out of their way to hide speed traps, as an acknowledgement that, if you’re slowing down for them, you’re paying enough attention to justify your speed.
I’m fine with the limits where they are now.
That said, if there were on board computers interacting with other cars, as well as stationary computers, speed limits could vary under many different conditions.
There wouldn’t really even be a need for signs, your dashboard could have both a speedo and a display for the “limit”.
I’m so sick of speeders in front of my house. The limit is 25. Most are going at least 40 around the blind curve, and our neighborhood has kids, driveways, pathways to schools, and intersections aplenty. My wife’s car was totaled as soon as she pulled out of our driveway by a clueless speeder. I agree with those who say highway speed limits should be higher and that we need to persuade drivers be more careful in communities.
I would like to see more enforcement in residential and urban areas and less on highways. Speed is problematic when you need to make changes in speed and direction often and the lower speed is duly justified around the town.
I could also go for an enhanced drivers license that permits you a clearly coded license tag that gives you +15 or +20 mph allowance on highways. While we are at it, let’s get a color coded license tag for people who are verifiable stupid in cars (DUI, repeated reckless, etc).
dgran for head of the DOT!
+1,000,000
Interesting. I have found that driving I-95 in Virginia during vacation season at anything less then 85-90 mph in the train of cars in the left lane means you are stuck in the right lane with people doing between 50-70. And I mean 50 one mile and 70 the next. This of course incites anger and more aggressive driving, which is dangerous.
I try to limit myself to no more than 10 over on most roads except for interstates or tight residential areas (where I do the speedlimit, you don’t want to hit someone or their kid OR pet because you were doing 35 in a 25). To me, I find a comfortable pace that is just a bit faster than most and keep it. I stay right when I’m supposed to and accelerate to pass if my speed isn’t enough for the car coming up behind me. If the lane is clear, the “cruise control pass” is generally enough. I’m sure many of us here try to practice the same techniques.
The big problem is lack of drivers education and the increasing distraction of drivers. As it’s been pointed out, if we to put the time,effort and money into our licenses as they do in Germany, we’d be better too.