An Automotive News report – about the oft-rumored return of the Volkswagen Scirocco – dug up an interesting nugget of information. Diesel sales accounted for 23 percent of Volkswagen sales in the first quarter of 2012, and future product plans are going to help give oil-burners a boost.
The AN piece quotes VW USA marketing boss Tim Mahoney as citing the AllTrack concept’s diesel engine as a major differentiation between the German-built wagon and the Subaru Outback. 20 percent of Passats sold are TDI models, nearly on par with VW’s overall mix.
Jonathan Browning, VW USA’s CEO, also noted that the Scirocco sports coupe is “…a piece of the lineup that I would dearly love to see here…” The Scirocco has been rumored to be coming to the USA since the day it was launched, but a 2013 refresh is the best hope so far for the current generation of car. The Scirocco is based on the Golf platform and uses identical engines, including the 1.4L and 2.0L turbocharged 4-cylinder engines, and the 2.0L TDI motor, in 140 horsepower and 170 horsepower engines. How about a high-performance diesel sports coupe? The VWVortex crowd would go ga-ga – and if gas prices keep going up, maybe the market would too? The car pictured above is a loaded Scirocco TDI, and it looks like what the Hyundai Veloster should have been.
Last time I filled up, reg unleaded was $3.89, and diesel was $3.96. Without the typical price penalty of diesel, there isn’t much reason to not want one.
Except for the higher price of diesel vehicles. I have calculated this many times for many different diesels and unless you drive a LOT of miles, the break even point is usually 10 years or more.
If you are serious about saving money on driving, you buy a fuel efficient used car and drive it until the wheels fall off.
On the other hand, if you do not want to drive your car into the ground, you can expect to recoup a significant share of the upfront cost of the diesel on resale. Used TDIs go for quite astonishing prices.
Can the used car be a diesel?
First, years to break-even is meaningless. It doesn’t matter how much you drive, the break-even point occurs at the same mileage. Use miles to break-even and let each driver figure out years on their own (if they want to).
Second, the higher cost of the diesel engine is generally balanced by the improved mpg. The killer is the higher fuel price–when diesel costs more, there’s no financial reason to get one. Without that problem, cost ceases to be a negative, and diesel’s improved torque & drivability makes it worthwhile.
I might also add that it depends on what you are trading down/up too. If you own a Tahoe and now drive a Jetta then you should recoup fairly quickly. (dont know the numbers just an educated guess). I drive a CX9 right now with not so great mileage but I love it. I have already told my wife that next car(2 years from now) will be a VW Passat TDI or a Mazda 6 diesel (if they offer it here.) Saw that consumer reports got 51 hwy mpg on the Passat. Since I do mostly HWY driving (about 100miles per day) this is about twice what I am getting. Now according to my unscientific calculation I should get my pay back fairly quickly. (say less than 5 years?) I am keeping my CX9 so I wont lose any money in the trade as well. Some body help me out with the calculations PLEASE>>LOL
Moving from Tahoe to tdi the fuel savings basically pay for the car. Plus you go from penalty large box to- to what? Some like them a lot.
“reg unleaded was $3.89, and diesel was $3.96”
Diesel is a good $0.60 – $0.70 cheaper in the city and $0.20-$0.40 cheaper in the outer reaches of the Chicago Metro area.
If this trend continues diesel will be in a lot more commuter cars.
The diesel/gas price relationship seems to be highly variable.
Here in central Indiana they’re nearly the same about $4/gal.
Trip to central Ohio last week and it was $4.25 diesel / $3.75 gas.
The only thing that surprises me about this is that the number is so low.
Seriously, unless the other 3/4 are buying 2.0 liter turbos, they’re doing it wrong.
The diesel premium on a Golf is between $5,100 and $6,200, although they do throw in 17 inch wheels with the diesel. That’s a big ticket option for a car with a base price under $18K. It isn’t like with a three-quarter ton truck, where the diesel engines provide additional power and capability. A Golf for under $20K seems reasonable. A slower Golf for $24,235 to $29,440 doesn’t shout bargain. Besides, isn’t the 2.5 I5 VW’s only engine that ever returns reasonable reliability statistics?
Bingo. This is exactly why our Sportwagen has the five cylinder under the hood.
We might have been willing to swing the $1500 price premium for the engine alone, but VW bundles it with other options. Ends up costing $4500+. We don’t drive enough to make that pay out.
VW loves touting that a very large portion of the Jetta Sportwagen sales are TDI equipped. What they fail to bring up is that they pulled the 2.0T motor from the car after 2009, so your choices are limited to a fairly gutsy TDI or that boat anchor of a 2.5L gasser. They basically forced the choice.
VW also doesn’t mention that the TDI is a rube goldberg engine design with about 20 different things than can go wrong and frag the engine. They also don’t talk about the diesel particulate filter (DPF) that’s technically a wear item in the owner’s manual, and possibly a $2200 replacement cost at 120k miles. there go all your fuel savings!!
“…and possibly a $2200 replacement cost at 120k miles. there go all your fuel savings!!”
Hardly. As much as my fiance drives a month, we’ve calculated that she’s saving, conservatively, 80 dollars a month when compared to the standard engine. So in a 6 year ownership period (the time it would take to hit a 120k mile service issue, she’ll have saved close to $6,000 dollars when compared with the 2.5 mill. More than enough to offset an unforseen expense as you’ve laid out.
Now you’re about to argue “Then don’t buy a VW!”, but that’s not the point. If the only point was to save money, we’d all drive Versas and be done. The point is to have your cake (Satisfying-drive-german car, almost 240 lb-ft of torque, etc…) and eating it too (damn fine mpg, and the satisfaction of not having to putter around in a prius to do it.)
Yea but how much of a premium did she pay for the car over the original? That eats into those savings. And the time value of money further eats into them
Unless you bought used, which would help.
for a similarly equipped Jetta, we paid a little less than $3K for the diesel, so by my estimation, we still come out ahead, if only just.
On top of that I expect we’d get more for trade for our diesel later than the 2.5 SE, plus the convenience of only have to fill up once a week (as opposed to every 3 days) and the extra torque make it a worthwhile proposition.
The TDI gets 7/3 = 133% better mileage?
Exaggerate much?
Dan, In her 2008 Rabbit, my fiance was getting, usually 26, sometimes as high as 28. In her Jetta TDI, she’s getting around 40-41 mpg in all situations. If I drive it with a lead foot, and only do around town driving, I can’t make this thing get less than 38 or so.
It’s a huge difference.
and have the satisfaction of driving a new loaner every time its in the shop.
Timely post- I just had a chance to get some serious wheel time in a brand new A3 TDI. Fantastic car. The DSG works beautifully with the motor- though it was a bit less telepathic than when combined with the 2.0T. Even so, earlier gen VW diesels left me feeling not quite on board with the TDI thing, but this current setup really does bring it all together quite nicely. I can see why these are selling.
Though of course, the intermittent and extremely annoying buzz/rattle from somewhere inside the dash behind the headlight switch reminded me that it’s a VAG product.
Stryker 1, and A Caving Ape – your two posts combined pretty much sum up my experience with my new A3 TDI. Yes it’s pricey, but you get a car you actually like to drive if you care about such things. Yes, diesel costs 7% more than regular, but is less expensive than premium now. I’ve calculated the gas savings – and it totally works for us vs the car we got rid of. Cheaper to run, and much much nicer car. Yes, might lose some of that benefit to maintenance costs. But Im not completely convinced that will be the case and will get over it if it turns out to be so. I also have the rattle, but when you buy an Audi, you can bring it back within a reasonable amount of time to have such things fixed. I had a vent rattle fixed on my other Audi, and a back seat squeak fixed on the A3, no cost.
Oh, also, we looked for a used TDI before buying. Practically no inventory, and if you did find one, it could have 20k miles on it and only be a few thousand less than new. So these cars are apparently being kept, and when resold, going for quite high resale.
My fathers 2009 Jetta Tdi just grenaded itself. The mechanic doesn’t even really know what went wrong because the whole engine is a mess… valves, turbo, everything. With 150,000 all highway miles this is not acceptable. He is a conservative driver, and had all the service done by the book at the dealer. He was able to find an engine wholesale and the mechanic gave us a brake on the labor, but it’s still going to be in excesses of $6,000 (!) before its back on the road. No matter what, this car will never ever ever save him any money.
My point is this: diesels require expensive maintenance and when they break, cost boatloads to fix. Your better off getting a simple efficient gasoline engine.
That isn’t a diesel specific problem. It’s a VW specific problem.
Six figure mileage on a low quality car means four figure repair bills. No matter what it burns.
Dan, you beat me to it!
This is “crappy VW syndrome” not an inherent flaw with diesel cars. Diesel engines are no more complex than their gasoline counterparts but generally last longer.
The average car goes to the crusher with IIRC 140k miles – so he’s done better than most.
If this were a Camry or an Accord, I’d also be pissed. Unfortunately, this is still a German car, and German cars die.
It may not have been his engine, but something was going to fail and cost big bucks at 150k. If we keep our 2011 is 150k, I’ll definitely be on the lookout for something similar.
Also, 150k since 2009? Holy crap, he must drive a ton.
“If this were a Camry or an Accord, I’d also be pissed.”
His last car was a stick shift 2004 Camry. (yes, stick shift) He loved that car, and it ran flawlessly (not even a clutch replacement) until it was totaled around 240,000 miles by an unlicensed, uninsured kid joy riding in his dad’s dully.
“Also, 150k since 2009? Holy crap, he must drive a ton.”
Yes, that was the reason he bought the TDI… you know, great highway fuel economy. That doesn’t count all the miles he puts on his motorcycle, which he modded out for touring duty.
At the rate I currently drive my VW, it would take another 16 years to get to 150K. If I drove a single car 50,000 miles a year, I’d drive a Toyota and change cars every 3 years anyway.
Well, in order to make a fair comparison, we’d need to know how the other engines supplied with the Jetta do after 150,000 miles. Frankly, the concept of any VAG automobile doing more than 150K miles with suffering some major failure seems pretty foreign to me.
As for the “simple, efficient” gasoline engine: they don’t exist, at least not the “simple” part. Let’s just take the latest efficiency craze — gasoline direct injection. That requires extremely high pressure fuel pumps and injectors and, unlike diesel, gasoline has no lubricating properties. So, are they going to last 150,000 miles? We don’t know. (Although BMW owners found it in way less than 150,000 miles that the high ethanol (and likely water) content in US gasoline raised hell with the HPFP in their GDI engines.) Then there’s the schmutz on the intake valve that is regularly cleaned in a port fuel-injected or carburetted engine by the incoming fuel/air mixture. There’s nothing but air and whatever crud is being sucked out of the crankcase through the PCV system that goes into a GDI engine. How does a GDI engine go 150,000 miles without that stuff being cleaned off the intake valves? It’s worth noting that, to my knowledge, only Toyota (Lexus) uses a little bit of port injection in their GDI engines to deal with this “cleaning” issue.
My point is that today’s consumer is faced with a lot of very new fuel-saving technologies in both gasoline and diesel engines (not to mention hybrids) whose longevity at points beyond 150,000 miles has not been established to any substantial degree, based on a large volume of owner experience.
Literally, today: “You pays your money; you takes your chances.”
“As for the “simple, efficient” gasoline engine: they don’t exist”
I know what you mean, but I’m not talking about all the headline 40mpg cars. When I say simple, I’m talking about Camry/Accord 4 cylinder type cars. Those engines are very simple, there is plenty of space under hood to work on them and they are reasonably efficient. Corolla, Civic, Versa, Fit and the like also offer very high mpg as without the complication. Granted, its not 40+ mpg, but for most people the difference between 35 and 40 mpg is not going to save them a whole lot of money.
” I’m talking about Camry/Accord 4 cylinder type cars. Those engines are very simple, there is plenty of space under hood to work on them and they are reasonably efficient.”
Efficient by 1990s standards perhaps.
I currently drive a 2007 4 cylinder accord. It has 160 hp, and I consistently get about 24 or 25 mpg.
For comparison, my 2010 Genesis Coupe 3.8 only did one worse than that, at 23 mpg. That’s for roughly double the horsepower.
As far as reliability goes, I expect this 2007’s Engine will last until kingdom come. The Transmission is anyone’s guess, and I’ve already had to have the front brake system almost completely replaced (bad rotors/pads/calipers).
So I wouldn’t say ownership here is any cheaper compared to a VW something or other, it’s just costing money in different ways.
Meanwhile, my old beater 2001 Elantra just passed 175k miles, with mostly city driving on it, and there are lots of similar stories here.
I’m sorry to hear about the early demise of your father’s TDI. His ‘savings’ just evaporated, as did his faith in Volkswagen’s vaunted ‘German engineering’.
Everyone knows that you trade in a VW diesel before the warranty goes out.. and you usually get good prices also. Its the German way of car ownership.
That last line was rather uncalled for.
It’s like me saying, “the Scirocco looks 20% less reliable than the Hyundai Veloster.”
Personally, I think the Veloster nailed, at least, the styling. For the person who is shopping for that type of car, it’s relatively inexpensive, high tech, and noticeable as hell. If it had a smoother ride, and a bit more headroom, I’d very likely own one.
Maybe the turbo…
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I agree with Derek. I might be a Hyundai fanboy, but the Veloster is hideous, while every Scirocco over the decades has been beautiful.
If the Veloster came with a door on the other side, I’d be a lot more interested. I know that’s the point of the car, but people sitting in the back complain bitterly about having to slide their rear all the way over when carrying more than one person back there. For a female wearing a skirt or a dress it’s particularly annoying. Now, a 4-door (5-door?) Veloster turbo would be a really nice vehicle for someone like myself. Assuming they fixed the steering and the wallowy dampers.
I dunno. All of the current Scirocco’s I’ve seen in the metal are nice, but I like the looks of the GTI better.
The national average for gas is supposed to break $5 for the first time this summer. Many legislators are seriously beginning to bring the case to Americans that we should no longer allow tax exemptions to corporations as hugely profitable as the oil industry. Demand is steadily continuing to rise in India and China.
Add it all up and it looks like gas prices will significantly climb over the next five years. This is not intended to be a political post but rather an acknowledgement that gas is very likely going to get more expensive whether we agree with the politics of subsidizing oil or not. There have been a lot of interesting points on this thread, but few seem to acknowledge the advantage of a diesel when considering the likelihood of significantly higher fuel prices over the next several years.
+1
This is true. Just like, the more you drive, the more you benefit per MPG, the more gas costs, the more you benefit per MPG.
For instance, I could trade in my 4 cylinder accord for a Challenger SRT-8 right now, and my yearly fuel costs would nearly double… But my commute is less than 20 miles daily, so I wouldn’t feel it all that much.
Now if gas shot up to 5,6, or 7 bucks a gallon, then we’re talking real pain, even for the guy only drives his dually to and from the honky-tonk 2 miles away 3 time a week.
Sorry, I’ve seen all this before . . . in 1973 and again in 1980. In fact, in 1980, I even bought a diesel, based on predictions like the ones you recite . . . which turned out to be totally wrong. And the Audi diesel I bought was a disaster, although it did achieve a solid 30-35 mpg.
Assuming equal reliability (a big if, considering the big promoters of diesels are German manufacturers with spotty reliability records), a person has to look very carefully at the kind of driving he does and purchase accordingly, and also note the price difference between diesel fuel and gasoline. Diesels are unbeatable on the highway, and, if that’s what most of your driving is, diesel is the way to go. Otherwise, hybrids seem to be the better choice.
But its important to remember that the type of vehicle has at least as big an impact on fuel economy, with large SUVs and CUVs being the worse and small Ford Focus/Chevy Cruze sized cars being the best.
And as an aside, assume that the government eliminates the tax credits, percentage depletion allowance, etc. that oil companies get, what makes you think that the companies are going to make their shareholders take the hit, as opposed to simply doing what businesses do with any other tax — pass it through to the customer?
The reality is that the “end tax breaks for big oil” is just another way for the government to suck more tax dollars out of your pocket and mine, albeit indirectly, using “big oil” as the tax collector.
I’m not touching the political argument here, because it could go on forever and it’s a polarizing distraction from our common love: cars. If this thread is still around in five years, one of us can tell the other I told you so. Ha!
Just remember, my point was more that many of the people buying diesels aren’t simply too stupid to have done the math as many commenters seem to conclude. They just believe gas will continue to become more expensive, which is, at the very least, a real possibility. If they’re right, they’ll have made a great decision by buying a diesel. If they’re wrong, it’s pretty much a financial draw.
“Just remember, my point was more that many of the people buying diesels aren’t simply too stupid to have done the math as many commenters seem to conclude.”
This isn’t true at least from my experience. You wouldn’t believe the mental gymnastics people will go through in order to justify a new toy purchase. A co-worker bought a brand new Jetta TDI to “save money on gas” instead of driving his paid for Honda Pilot. He still has the Pilot but it sits in his driveway most days. $23K buys a LOT of gas for that Pilot.
Ubermensch
I’ll agree with that. One guy I worked with bought a brand new Cobalt to drive to work so he wouldn’t spend so much money on his gas guzzling Expedition. He did not, however, sell the expedition.
@DC Bruce – I totally agree. The hypes of 1973 and 1980 about long-term fuel shortages amounted to nothing.
Incidentally, if the US public switches to a diesel economy, you can be sure politicians will find a way to tax it and regulate it more than they do now. Then we’ll have diesel owners pining for the days of gasoline, just as gasoline owners pined for the days of the horse & buggy.
Just 23 procent?
Dieselcars is not just a matter of economy.
If you like relaxed driving, diesel is the answer. A lot of torque at low rpms.
If you like to race and wants to listen to a screaming engine, look elsewhere.
Totally agree. I have driven a few Hyundai i30s around the suburbs and the diesel version is much more fun. I never had to put fuel in any of them so I know nothing about the consumption comparison.
Regardless of fuel economy, I love the look of the Scirocco.
That is all.
I really like VW and the whole TDI thing. I drive 40000 miles a year, so the Jetta Sportwagen was on my short list. In the end, I passed on any VW because of everything I’ve read about spotty reliability and mostly, my fears regarding the DSG tranny (my stick driving days have passed).
Oh, and the VW dealer was a nightmare.