The slings and arrows of European parts and service can be a real eye opener.
Strong Euros (for now). Weak dealer service networks. A penchant for complexity and electronic doo-dads. European cars may be fashionable among those folks who are seeking a step up in prestige and driving excitement. But they often cost a heckuva lot more to maintain as well.
Enthusiast forums can often be the sole source of solace and salvation when a European car begins to deteriorate. As for longevity, these vehicles can require a strong DIY mentality once the brief honeymoon period of no repairs is breached.
Independent shops? They may not have the software updates or the unique fixes of the dealers. The ones that don’t specialize in the vagaries of that model may not know the ultimate answers to a complex problem. While the ones that do specialize can charge you dearly for the privileged information and convenience.
Dealerships? Pricey no matter what. Even those who are supposed to represent ‘The People’s Car’ can still charge upwards of $100+ an hour in labor. As for parts, often times the one needed may cost a multiple of other sources. Let’s not even mention the unexpected software update that can often add upwards of a four figured sum to the cost of ownership.
No car is perfect. But European cars have a reputation for a reason. Would you buy one used, at market prices, without the golden parachute of a warranty? Even for a year or two? If so, what would it be?
I’ve done it 3 times! 1 Bimmer and 2 SAABs. Very fun but tiring. Probably why I drive Hondas now.
Lambast Saab for not evolving but the decades old iron block 2.3 turbo is very inexpensive to maintain thanks for the knowledge via a couple forums. Each repair or maintenance has been documented and some even have pictures. Replacement parts are inexpensive with usually a half dozen vendors to choose from. Labor rates are around $100/hour at most shops and that is the biggest expensive.
So if you don’t spend anytime on your respective forum your going to get raped at the garage.
The 2.3 turbo had, in one of it’s incarnations, a tendency to varnish that made it a really dicey prospect. Ask me how I know.
Or how I know about DIC replacement. Throttle-body fouling. Transmission failure. SID failure. Most of the front suspension. Air conditioner. Heater core. Water pump. Etc, etc.
And yes, if you keep up with the maintenance and/or find a good independent, they run well. The point is, a Honda or Toyota generally allows you slack on the maintenance a little without too much fear and can be serviced at Jiffy Lube, and, well, the parts just seem to last a little longer and cost a little less.
Yes I’m a former 9-5 owner and saab forum mod to boot. I had lots of fun w/ cleaning my 9-5’s sludge out. The engine was great all the way up until I traded it in at 150-160k miles. DI cassettes were also fun. I still have a spare DI (and turbo) sitting in my garage. The forums helped me and that’s why I ended up getting so involved with them. I kept my saabs going on the cheap, unlike my Bimmer, which was a pre-internet purchase. But the point made below is true as well. I can go out of town knowing our Hondas (even our higher mileage one)aren’t going to leave my wife or kids on the side of the road, somewhere. Or at least, there’s a reduced likelihood compared to the saabs…
But to avoid Euro cars b/c of a lack of warranty? Maybe a 911 or something….But not an AUDI, VW, BMW, SAAB, Volvo or Merc…
Yeah, Norm, tell me about the longevity of my 2.3 liter 9-5 turbo that’s weeping oil from main seals at both ends of the engine at 90K miles. I have my fingers crossed that my daughter can get one more year out of it as her “school car.”
Oh, and the autobox that slams into drive. Even my local Saab specialist said there are only two choices: replace the tranny or do a flush. (This was at about 70K miles) We did the flush, but the transmission is beginning to show signs of the same problem now.
I cannot express enough that my highway driven 9-5’s(I’ve owned 5 so far) have never broken down or had major repairs. There is something about them having to be driven and not suburban/urban potsying around.
Motor oil sludge, varnishing & gunking of throttle bodys, and PCV blockage is all cleaned out with a good highway cruise. It must also be good for the seals and gaskets. Transmission flushes apply also.
It’s easy, as psar does above, to list all of the known weaknesses and make it seem as though every Saab is a disaster in waiting. My experience (6 Saabs, 5 bought used, over 100K accumulated miles) is far from psar’s portrayal. My one “sludge era” ’03 9-5, sold with 95K miles – no sludge. Of the 6, never replaced a water pump, one SID repair, one DIC, one heater by-pass valve. And two of the items listed – the front suspension and the Aisin 5 speed auto – are extremely stout and are not common failure points. Not sure where you’re getting that.
Every BMW (3.0 CSi, 535, 540 Sport and my current 328i) and Mercedes (1972 280 SEL 4.5) I bought did not come with a “warranty” and were the most reliable cars I’ve owned. My Subaru Outback was a totally different story and I’d never get another one. To me, a “warranty” is just a pre-paid service agreement. I’d rather keep my money in my bank.
I know about the Saab DICs, and had a SIDS fixed. A fuel pump too. But none of the other problems mentioned, across four Saabs and a decade and a half, and we still have three of them. Parts and labor–difference isn’t as much as some people make out, if you have a good independent garage and don’t rely on just the dealer parts department.
But I can understand that what often drives people nuts is the seeming randomness of it all. I’ve had good fortune with our cars, but others have not with theirs, and there’s often no way to tell.
No kidding about the Outback. My brother in law had one that was a temperamental money pit. Every problem was $2000 to fix. I’ve had a 07 Chrysler 3000 for 4 years now, total repair cost $0.
bkrell
June 15th, 2012 at 9:08 am
“I’ve done it 3 times! 1 Bimmer and 2 SAABs. Very fun but tiring. Probably why I drive Hondas now.”
+ Sanity
In most things in life, and especially autos, wives/girlfriends, and abodes, the KISS method is tried and true through the ages, and gives one a decisive edge in maintaining their health, wealth and sanity.
There are extremely few exceptions to this rule, and even they may be based on ‘phases’ in one’s life rather than true passion.
My ownership experience with 2 european makes (one VW purchased new, the other a CPO BMW, both maddening experiences) was more than enough to wean me forever off the ‘anything’ having a european badge and needing proprietary hardware/software or even warranty claims being honored properly and without a hassle.
I have ZERO doubt that unless it was totaled in some serious road going mishap, that BULLETPROOF 1994 Honda Civic EX 5 speed I once owned and drove for some 5 years before selling it (dumb mistake; I needed a larger sedan, though) is still happily churning its mill for its current owner, without complaint and without anything other than a routine request for some clean oil, fresh filters and a belt or hose here or there.
The only special treatment it ever received was an early, pre-planned new timing belt on its 4th birthday (peace of mind).
I am considering a 524td so their is naturally no warranty. Also considered a MK4 Golf TDi and upgrading to the larger Honeywell Garret turbo so also no warranty. I have owned a first generation Volvo S40 that was out of warranty and had a top notch Volvo/Saab specialist look after it for a lot less than you would expect.
No I will not buy a used European car period. Would I buy a new European car? Yes if I can afford to dump it when the warranty expires.
Dan: If you were a fan of Asian cars, I can understand this attitude, but you like the American stuff.
Within 130 miles of me the ONLY Japanese/Korean dealership is a Nissan dealer and a Toyota dealer. My point, I’m not “spoiled for choice” in having a dealer or local mechanics who would know what they were doing. Actually with the non-American stuff around here only the dealership mechanics know what they are doing.
American cars still have an advantage of being cheaper to buy and cheaper to fix. And they’re not as unreliable as most of the B&B seem to think.
foad please.
Agreed, but like anything else there are roses and there are thorns. Nothings really perfect whether its from Detroit, Tokyo or Stuttgart, you pick your poison and drink it down.
The old-school, rear-wheel drive cars from GM and Ford are more reliable than the European cars, and cheaper to maintain as well.
“Dan: If you were a fan of Asian cars, I can understand this attitude, but you like the American stuff.”
These days, I get the sense that Asian and American cars are more or less similar in reliability, but European cars are a fair bit behind.
That said, it looks like even German cars are more or less reliable in absolute terms now. Look at how the spreads in most quality surveys have narrowed. Many of the same names at the top and bottom, but the gap between them is less, and above average reliability circa 2005 would be below average today.
…….American cars still have an advantage of being cheaper to buy and cheaper to fix. And they’re not as unreliable as most of the B&B seem to think……
That is completely true. Most folks who lambast American cars as unreliable have likely not bought one in decades. And keep in mind that pretty much forever, Euro cars in aggregate have been on the bottom of the reliability pile. But the fanboys will put up with reliability issues that they never would with anything else. Just peruse Bimmerfest. Loyal to the brand, these guys gloss over things that are just inexcusable…Still, I’d love to own a M3…problems be damned…
@Sam P
What’s wrong with his tastes? I also like American cars. Problem sir?
I was mocked up, lambasted and ridiculed in a forum because I said I liked Neons and that they were good cars. To this day I stand by both.
It’s funny to hear people say things like this. In Germany they are exactly the same about American cars. i.e why would you buy that piece of American Scheiss when you could buy a German car?
For the record – I can’t understand why anybody wouldn’t want to buy a European car. Even “if” they have more issues, the parts are usually higher quality and doing work yourself is reasonably easy.
Most unreliable car I’ve owned was a Honda…
Keep in mind most people do not have the time or knowledge to work on their own car or the time to put up with it being in the shop even if they can afford the garage bills.
BTW, I’ve heard that Europeans don’t keep their cars as long as Americans. If true, they may not experience the gap in reliability that seems to widen with time.
From what I’ve seen, the exact opposite is true. You don’t see many new cars being driven around by the average person, though company cars are a lot more common. It’s been stated here that Europeans (I think Germans specifically) don’t drive as much and don’t factor minor problems into their reliability perceptions, which jives with my own observations traveling over there.
Absolutely; I’m on the (semi-passive) hunt for a manual wagon 3-series E46 (or E36 – but we didn’t get those officially in the US, so they’re pretty rare), 5-series E28 or 34 (or possibly an E39, but the electronics are worrysome), or a Volvo 745/765, 945/965, or V90 (no manuals, so I’d have to swap one) to add to the fleet. These are all much older vehicles though, so they aren’t subject to as many of the electronic systems/networks/updates/cross-checking that modern cars have. I get enough of that whenever I ponder doing much to my DD, an ’06 Saab 9-3
I own the car you seek a 03 wagon, 5sp with sport & premium packages. I bought it used out of warranty at 36k. It now has 107k and has only required routine maintenance and still drives like new. Nearly all OEM BMW parts can be had via the net at discount prices and the car is very accessible to DIY work. Brakes-easy, Control Arm bushings-easy, Coolant system overhaul-easy, it has quick release hoses! I can’t speak for SAAB, Volvo or other Euro brands but the rumors BMW’s are complex and the parts are expensive and hard to get are just that, rumors. My local indie BMW shop can do anything the dealer can and is no more expensive labor wise than the average auto shop. In contrast we have a Honda that requires mystery Honda parts that can only be bought from Honda at ridiculous prices, and is not DYI friendly for many reasons including all the suspension hardware underneath is rusty, it’s also an 03. I will by future BMW’s out of warranty without worry, I’ve done it now three times and with proper due diligence you can dodge the pitfalls.
Really? I didn’t realize this was such a controversial idea.
I certainly do see myself doing it (again), and I’ve done it a couple of times already. Purchased out of warranty: ’98 M3, ’01 M5. Purchased in warranty and kept after the warranty ended: ’98 528i, ’06 M5. My ’08 Boxster has a month or so left on its warranty, but at only 24k miles, I’ll be keeping it a while.
Hah! Might do just that one of these days. Been looking at some Escorts recently in my quest to buy an older car. They were built in Brazil for a long time so they’re not imported, so don’t know if they really apply. Shops know how to deal with them. Seems there are only some with some problems regarding sudden engine dying, but my mechanic assured me it’s not a problem.
May bite that bullet soon.
1.8 16v goodness. Can top 200 km/h (when new). Reasonably economic. Handles fine like all EuroFords.
Marcelo, post a link to a pic of that. Is it the last gen Escort before the Focus or older?
BMW 750il with a crate 350 swap…too much trouble? Probably too much trouble…
Double dare ya.
Crate 350? I’d settle for no less than an LS3…
I can’t ever see myself buying a used European car at any price. New? …Maybe, if an Eos or Volvo convertible or a M-B E-class.
I’m in the same camp as Educator_Dan on this, so I’m parroting exactly what he said.
Let’s not make too big a deal out of this. All cars, including European, need proper maintenance. My ‘5 XC70 (71+K miles) has been perfect since new. No repairs ever, just preventative maintenance. A much better record than my ’04 TSX (which was a good car too). My other car, an ’06 330i was bought with 107K miles and has run great for the past 3 years with only two problems. One was the seat mat sensor covered under a recall and the other was a failed blower motor which cost me less than $200 to have replaced at an indy. The BMW has no warranty and has been better than expected. I have both of them properly serviced, including changing all “lifetime” fluids and don’t ignore warning signs (or lights). Prior to this I drove only Japanese cars, which were reliable, but not any more so than my current fleet. Just picked up a Sienna for family trips and that has lots more problems. Go figure.
While I agree it’s not all about where a cars made (everyone makes crap sometimes) there are certain trends by location. As far as maintenance goes thats the real advantage to Japaneses and American cars my VW would respond to my lazyness by refusing to work where as the american and Japanese cars ive owned happily loped along with well over 100k miles with oil changes every 10k or 15k and pretty much no other maintenance. Luckily none of my cars used a timing belt. (chains rule)
Since I do all my own repairs, this is what I want to know when considering ANY used car.
1) Is factory service info available at a reasonable cost?
2) Are special tools required to repair this car? If so, how much do they cost?
3) What is the cost of parts? Can most of the parts be obtained from aftermarket suppliers?
BTW, sometimes I’ve gotten lucky and been able to download entire factory shop manuals I found on torrent sites.
Have done it in the past, am doing it presently, and will probably do it again in the future. Then again, I’m not one of those cheap SOB’s who’s definition of car ownership is based totally on numbers on the spreadsheet. I’ve had a few maintenance and cash intensive cars in my life that were so nice to drive I still have nothing but positive memories of them. There’s more to car ownership than cost of maintenance.
And yes, I’m still dreaming of one old but not vintage Ferrari in my life before I die. To hell with the cost. I didn’t save up my money so it can be given to my heirs.
Yeah,me too on the Ferrari. I was at a major car show and a Ferrari dealer had a yellow 360 Modena F1 Spyder with 30,000 miles for sale. It just had an $18,000 major service (timing belt etc.), was gorgeous and the price was $80,000. I came sooooo close. I knew it would be troublesome; also that it’d be worth it. A perfect entry level car to fulfill a dream. I also believed it would not be my last.I just couldn’t come up with the money.
The old ones are solid.
My (current) dream build is an E36 with a monster built VQ. E46 M3 performance, E36 M3 looks + dynamics, Nissan reliability + parts costs. Can’t beat it.
There is no way that a modified Nissan engine in a car in which it doesn’t belong is going to be more reliable than a BMW I6. There is just no way. The engines in the E36 are very tough if maintained properly (as you should with any engine).
Why would it be any less reliable? People swap the motors into 240SXs all the time w/o incident. An engine doesn’t care what car its in, it just needs fuel, spark and the commands to deliver them.
M50/M52’s VANOS issues are less scary than the VQ’s oil consumption issues. Plus the VQ is cheap. And there’s no replacement for displacement. I don’t see the big deal, no need to freak out. It’s just an idea.
Find a wrecked 2003.5+ E46 M3 and swap in an S54 into the E36 donor car. That’s an awesome engine that’s the ultimate evolution of the BMW inline 6. Plus, it’ll be much easier to make all the electronics work.
That having been said, I have heard of an S2000 engine swap into an E36 318i. It’s on Youtube.
VQ has oil consumption issues? Huh, I did not know that. I’ve had a few car with VQs, and they never lose oil between oil changes. Did have other problems, though, mostly electronic.
“My (current) dream build is an E36 with a monster built VQ.”
LSx swap FTW!!!
The E36 isn’t considered one of the “old ones”, that was the first generation of 3-series to get “complicated”, and the first generation of BMWs to get the rep of being unreliable and expensive to maintain.
Plus, there is no point to that swap. The E36 M3 engine is considered very reliable, and not even expensive to fix if it breaks. The problem with the E36 is everything else, especially electronics. You cannot swap out the $500 climate control switch module with something more reliable or less expensive, etc, etc. This is why a nice E36 M3 can be bought for $10k or so, and a nice E30 or E46 M3 costs at least double that. Plus, a monster built VQ isn’t going to be a paragon of reliability either, they are only reliable when you leave it stock.
You would be much better off finding a decent E30 non-M3 and swapping in an LSx or an E46 M3 engine.
…….The E36 isn’t considered one of the “old ones”, that was the first generation of 3-series to get “complicated”, and the first generation of BMWs to get the rep of being unreliable and expensive to maintain…..
No, that is not true. Those of us who remember 70s era BMWs remember the Bring Me a Wrecker comments…
I agree with golden2husky. The E28 and E30 were actually exceptions that created the impression that BMW could make durable and dependable cars.
“The E36 M3 engine is considered very reliable, and not even expensive to fix if it breaks. The problem with the E36 is everything else, especially electronics.”
That may be because the E36 M3 engine in the US wasn’t an M-engine at all, but rather a warmed over version of the engine going into the 328i at the time (I had always thought that it was a detuned version of the Euro-spec motor). A buddy of mine bought one of these used and ran it for close to a decade and over 140k miles before wrecking it. While some of the instrument cluster lost pixels, it wasn’t unreliable from an electronics standpoint. The biggest recurring running costs were rear tires (like the E39) and front fascias/underbody diffusers.
Absolutely not. Not even if I could afford to keep the heap on the road.
I wouldn’t even buy a new one.
The VW scar is still too fresh.
Since my specialty as a technician is european iron, specifically german, I tend to gravitate towards european stuff for my wife and myself. That being said, when I picked up a car for my little sister – I bought Japanese. Since she lives in Florida and I live in PA, odds are good that I will likely never turn a wrench on that car for her again. As such, I decided against getting her a Jetta (my original choice) due to the fact that she will inevitably need to take the car to a shop. Almost any tech out there knows how to work on domestic and asian iron – so she gets an Acura Integra. It makes no sense to me why so many techs cringe at european iron, but I’m not complaining – that means money for me. The best car purchase I’ve ever made was my wife’s car – an 06 New Beetle cabrio – it’s been stone cold reliable, aside from the coils blowing and being covered under recall. The CPO warranty came and went, and so far it’s been great. Of course, specializing in european iron – I have a VAG COM – any post 1991 VW/Audi owning DIYer worth their salt has a VAG COM – easily the best $350 you can spend when you own/deal with VW/Audi’s.
Integra is a good choice, trouble is finding a clean one these days, esp in PA. I haven’t seen a clean Integra (or Legend for that matter) in years.
Correct on the VAGCOM (now called VCDS). The best deal in scan tools out there. iatm, are you a VW tech?
Of course. My Volvo S60 has been extremely reliable.
I’m lucky to have a fantastic independent Euro specialist down the road from me, which has been a huge factor in getting the S60 to 146K and still running perfectly.
I bought a 97 Volvo 850 T5 with 75,000 on it back in ’05. I let the dealer talk me into the warranty since I had no experience with a turbo.
I used the warranty exactly twice and found out the hard way it didn’t cover the sunroof which was the only major problem I’ve had with it.
I’d buy another used Volvo in a heartbeat (I was looking at a V50 the other day) and would do so without the warranty.
Absolutely positively NOT. One of the reason I don’t buy German cars is because they’re overpriced overweight unreliable pieces of junk. That goes against everything I believe in when it comes to cars. As for other Europeans, while not as bad as the Germans they’re still quite overpriced and unreliable.
I would definitely consider something classic but the most modern European car I’d buy without warranty is a Volvo 240 so I can do a V8 swap.
GFY please.
As mentioned, yes – but only an older model. I’ve had two RWD Volvos and a manual, non-turbo 850, the latter just starting to edge into ‘too new, too compromised, too tight under the hood’ for my liking. I’d drive a W123/124 or E28/E30 (perhaps even an E34/E36) if I had a bit more money and patience, and I wouldn’t be totally averse to an old Saab 900.
But a five-year-old Audi? If I’m going to deal with a modern ten-pounds-of-excrement, five-pound-bag engine bay, I’m sticking with something designed to be a bit easier to repair… something American or Japanese.
Of course, this changes a bit if I’m not doing most of my own repairs anymore. At that point, if parts aren’t too costly, there’s a dedicated following online, reliability is passable, and there’s some semblance of reason in the design, I could live. (This goes for a C30/S40/V50, S60/V70, E46, or – should I go a bit mad – a newer Saab, mostly.)
Personally I dont buy any used car made by any manufacture with out an extended warranty. I recently have been thinking about the new Saab 9-5. I was informed by the local Caddie shop could get a warranty from them and they will service it. It would cost me about two grand for a 7 year 100k version and it covers mostly everthing. The car I was looking at is a 2012 with about 2k miles on it. I dont plan on moving so the shop will be there (hopefully). However I am not in the market for a car for atleast three more years. I just like looking and due my due diligence. That 9 5 is really a nice piece. Shame its gone.
No way.. that is why I bought a Lexus IS300 from a friend as I felt it would not give me trouble. 115K and maint records. Would I buy the equivalent German product? Nope.. and so far, very good :)
Steven, when you are at the auctions or dealing with the used dealers, do you get a sense for who is buying Euro cars and how they treat them?
As for me, I have lusted, but I went to the forums and checked maintenance schedules. No thank you, ma’am.
It’s a broad market. To be frank there is no rhyme or reason.
I would but it would not be used as a daily driver and would not be my only car. I would love a vintage Porsche or BMW 2002.
Driving through south central WI yesterday I caught a 3 sec glimpse of a Porsche sitting by the side of the road, as if for sale. My brother did Porsche & VW repair in the 70’s so I knew a bit about them but I’m far from being real knowledgeable these days. My first thought was “that’s not your everyday Porsche”. I saw whale tail and (I think) slantnose. I’ll be back in that area next Thurs and I will be stopping to look at it. I might go back there sooner as it’s hard to stop thinking about.
In the category of “things built in the last decade”, absolutely, as long as it’s a 5-cylinder Volvo.
Years ago, I bought a ’96 VW Passat TDI used with 95,000 km on it. Kept it until 2005 and sold it with 462,000 km on it. Bought a new (at the time) Jetta TDI and that now has 380,000 km on it. Hasn’t seen the dealer since the last warranty service.
And … a few weeks ago, I saw my old Passat in a parking lot, so it’s still around!
There are plenty of independent VW/Audi specialist shops around here, VW diesels are rather common in Canada, I can get parts through aftermarket sources for half what the dealer wants, I’m familiar with these cars (and specific issues that some models have) and know how to treat them, and you can get reasonably-priced VW-specific diagnostic software (aftermarket) that runs on a laptop.
I’m more likely to buy new rather than used, but I’ll still keep one well past warranty.
People who buy a European car and take it to the corner quickie lube for service are going to be in for a world of hurt. Wrong oil, wrong coolant, wrong transmission fluid, wrong tools, wrong wrong wrong.
I have purchased about a dozen BMWs well out of warranty. They all had 150k miles or more so they were long past warranty coverage and purchase prices were typically 1/8th new to a few hundred dollars. I do my own work and rely heavily on the internet for support. I also try to help others in need when I can offer anything from my experience.
BMW has fallen off to the point they are as bad as Audis according to trudelta.com. After years of steering people towards lightly used examples as reasonable and fun alternatives to appliance cars (Toyota/Honda), I cannot do it any more. You have to be willing to get very dirty and have a backup driver to work on anything European. Also, you now essentially rent these cars because anything electrical from the late 90s on requires coding at the dealership. Ask anyone who needs a replacement key for their late model Saab how they feel about modern automotive electronics.
Never, ever again. I owned a 420SEL for a very brief period of time, and it caused me nothing but heartache– when it ran it was a dream, but it rarely ran. I’m not mechanically inclined enough to work on my cars, so anything that goes wrong comes out of my pocket. That’s okay when you’re dealing with, say, an Acura, but the only way I’m ever going Euro again is if I buy new (or at least CPO)
I own a used European car without a warranty. 2004 BMW 330i. Have had it for several years now and I’ve owned several others in the past. I got a manual transmission to minimize transmission related issues, DIY where I can, and take the car to a good independent shop that’s marque specific and that I can bus to work from. Living in a major metropolitan area is good for some things.
Here’s a quick list of European cars I’d feel comfortable owning post warranty.
1978-1989 Porsche 911 (no turbo, the 3.0 and 3.2 Carrera)
Any BMW E30, E36, or E46 with a manual transmission (that’s the 1984-2005 models of 3 series for those who don’t know BMWs)
Any non turbo E90 (2006-2011) 3 series with a manual transmission.
Any BMW Z3 with a stick. Especially the M Roadster.
I’d consider buying a new BMW F30 328i with a stick – might even take European delivery on one in a few years – but want to see how the early production cars fare in the real world.
W126 Mercedes S-Class Diesel
W123 Mercedes (pre E Class) Diesel
Any 2006-present 2.5 liter VW Golf or Jetta
Any Volvo 240 or 740 Turbo
Used Audi Syndrome, I has it. Or had it. When I graduated college and got my first real job, I took the plunge into a non-warranty euro-box, a 2000 Audi A4. How’d it work? It’s still my favorite car that I’ve owned. Sure it had the maddening string of cheap, broken window regulators and control arms, but it really was a pretty dependable car. Although dependable required keeping spare ignition coils in the trunk, which got used more than the spare tire, but those are pretty easy to swap out. I’d do it again for the right car. I’ve always liked the E46 3 Series, but I have no need for another car right now.
Bought a 1988 Saab 9000 turbo two years ago – on a whim — no warranty. Never regretted it. It didn’t have a/c, the abs didn’t work, the heated seats function didn’t work, but it drove like a dream. Took it from Toronto to Connecticut and back in December/10 and never had a single problem. Ended up giving it to my nephew last year when I bought my civic (with a/c). One problem the Saab did have was an oil leak that felt like a leaking tanker listing in the driveway.
I miss the huge hatchback and the surge you get when it hits 3,000 rpm. But I find I can do that in my civic at over 5,000 rpm.
Fun times.
Absolutely! The most fun for the buck can be had with a used Euromobile. The last 2 have been Porsches – most recently a Boxster. Much fun to be had, both driving and swinging wrenches! Always some new “trick” to learn about, in servicing and getting parts. I use PelicanParts for pieces and great technical info – other good sites are Pedro’s and Rennlist. I’ve got a great looking car, that’s fun to drive at a purchase price of 9 large. Parts are in the same league as many other cars – as with any used vehicle, do your homework and do a thorough pre-purchase inspection and test drive…then have fun!
We have had 3 Audis over the last 20 years, all but one came without a warranty.
If you can wrench yourself it’s no problem at all, the forum support for Audis is way better than the forums for most domestic or Asian vehicles. Get yourself a VAG.com and a factory manual and it’s cake.
One caveat be careful with the big European luxury cars, 7 series, A8, S Class . Once these cars come off warranty they are unsellable.
+1 to the Audi forum support. Pretty much any problem you could have has been discussed and several thorough DIYs written on it (with step by step pictures). It’s made owning a 2.7T so much easier. This is in contrast to BMW forums (I also have one), where the ratio of chip/tune posts to DIY write-ups seems like several multiples greater.
You own an older European car because you love them, not because it makes financial sense.
You should have some DIY knowledge whether you are wrenching on them or not. This is to properly manage maintenance and repairs so your baby does not turn into a worn out beater car rather than the precision machinery you believe it to be.
Having a strong independent service garage that understands your car is a must in the equation even if you do most of the repairs and maintenance yourself. Know when to outsource repairs. Join a related internet forum.
Try to understand your automotive goals. Do you want to spend every weekend doing repairs, enjoy the drive, or do modifications? Figure that out and don’t let your European car control your life.
Myself I am a glutton for punishment, I have two Audi 5000’s. One I drive 110 miles a day through Detroit as my commuter car. The other is the wife’s car and our travel car. I bought both of them on the cheap with low mileage. However, I paid dearly on the repair and maintenance side to get them sorted out.
I love the look and how they drive.
So far, so good. However they can be like a boat, you love the day you buy them and the day you sell them. I could regret my obsession.
Copy and paste link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29396384@N05/6270316159/
I have a ’90 non-quattro that looks exactly like the one on the left.
Isn’t that what leasing is for? I am on my third VW lease with the last two including no charge maintenance for the term of the lease (36 months). Usually when the term is up the cars have about 36,000 miles on them and still drive well but the long term durability would concern me.
The boat analogy is spot-on. You have to treat Euro car ownership as a hobby: something to tinker with on weekends for relaxation. If you end up swearing at it, or regretting the money you’re pouring into it, then it’s best to dump it and take up something else.
I’m facing something along these lines myself: the smart car was fine for the first few years, but it’s become rather needy of late and the extended warranty has paid for itself many times over. Some days I want keep it around and swap the engine for something fun; other days I just want to dump it and ride out of town.
I suppose the situation is different in developed countries like the US and Europe, because labor rate for car mechanics are insane. In developing countries labor is cheap, it’s parts costs that’s the main concern. Certain European cars, like the W124 Mercedes, have developed a reputation for being relatively easy and affordable to maintain. Parts prices are even lower than some premium Japanese cars! Still, that’s about it for European cars, all the other ones are generally known to be money pit. And their resale values reflect that.
I’ve bought a few used European cars, and it was a mistake every time, they break and they are too expensive to fix. I bought a new VW Scirocco I had no problems with it, but didn’t keep it long term. It had low mileage when I traded it in.
I have a Honda Accord but would consider a US brand car in the future.
I have worked on and maintained Asian, American and European cars. I have about 25 years of fairly extensive experience. I hate working on Asian and American cars. All, except Subaru, are very difficult and expensive to repair. Parts are difficult to find and are often much more expensive than European car parts. On the other hand, all European cars I have dealt with, including SAAB, Volvo, Mercedes and BMW, have been an absolute pleasure to work on. The higher grade materials allow for easier disassembly, fasteners don’t rust, exhaust parts survive many salt filled winters, engine bay layout is logical and well suited to easy access. Electronic systems are often easier and less expensive to deal with, especially on VWAG, BMW and Mercedes cars. There is better documentation available, often free of charge. There is usually an extensive user community willing to lend a helping hand.
I have had many occasions when I struggled to find replacement parts for Asian and American cars. Parts for European cars are plentiful, cheap and of very high quality.
I have repaired and maintained Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru vehicles. I have found all, except Subaru, to be very difficult to repair, with illogical engine layout that is optimized for lowest cost manufacturing instead of easy repair and maintenance. Often times these cars have SHARP EDGES in the way of routinely replaced parts like oil filters. After 5-7 years, fasteners universally become impossible to undo due to low grade materials used to lower production costs. Overall, with some rare exceptions, I hate working on Asian cars.
Now I come to the part that amazes me the most. In my personal experience, European cars break down far LESS than Asian and American cars. I see major problems like engine and transmission failures with Asian and American cars all the time. It is typical for a Toyota owner to say something like this: “My car has been completely reliable for 100k miles. I just had the transmission replaced at 30k miles and that all.” THIS IS TYPICAL! The reliability of Asian cars is a MYTH. They are just as unreliable as any other. In fact, when performance is considered, I can argue that functionally, European car owners would consider their car BROKEN if it had the exact same problem that and Asian car owner would simply consider NORMAL. I am talking about noise, poor ride, poor handling, poor performance, poor braking, poor shifting and poor FEEL. If my European car drove, handled, rode, steered and braked as poor as, say, a brand new Nissan Sentra, I would sure as hell pay a lot of money to FIX IT.
Speaking of SAABs, as I see a lot of comments about SAABs, I have had two of them. Both drove AS NEW at the time I decided to sell them. The 1986 900 had 325k miles on it. Original engine, gearbox, clutch, even axles. It was driven all over North America. It was raced extensively, with 10-15 evens attended every year. It was 20 years old when I sold it and it drove and felt NEW. I put nothing into its repairs in the last 5 years of ownership because nothing broke or malfunctioned during that time. I enjoyed it tremendously! The next SAAB was a 1998 900. It was extremely reliable, I drove it all over North America and it felt like a new car when I recently sold it with 165k miles. It was a wonderful family car, with a huge hatch that swallowed all our luggage, strollers, pack-and-plays, high chairs and beach equipment with room to spare.
So to me it is mind-boggling to hear that European cars are considered somehow inferior to Asian and American cars. It has not been true in my experience. I have bought European cars without a warranty. I will gladly do it again, over and over again.
I regularly speak with independent mechanics, and I was in regular contact with an expert witness for Pennsylvania’s biggest lemon law firm. This person had extensive experience as a service writer for several dealers, and he regularly dealt with customers who owned all types of cars.
All of them tell me the same thing – the European cars are worse than most GM and Ford products, along with the best of the Asians (Toyota and Honda), when it comes to reliablity. And the attitude of the European manufacturers – particularly VW and Daimler-Benz – towards customers is the worst in the industry.
And the idea that Toyota owners are more likely to overlook faults is not supported by the evidence. If anything, it is owners of GM and European vehicles who are more likely to do that, particularly since most owners of European vehicles lease them, and know that they won’t be driving the car much out of warranty.
Owners of European cars are also more likely to enjoy working on their cars themselves, which is often driven by necessity. They tend to overlook this fact as to why they aren’t running to the dealer on a regular basis.
My friend at the lemon law firm told me that, if anything, Honda and Toyota owners were more likely to believe that the vehicle should be perfect, and thus go ballistic over a rattle in the dashboard. He said that the complaints of Honda and Toyota owners were the LEAST LIKELY to be justified.
And the actual repair results compiled by TrueDelta and Consumer Reports do not support what you are saying.
As for this:
“In fact, when performance is considered, I can argue that functionally, European car owners would consider their car BROKEN if it had the exact same problem that and Asian car owner would simply consider NORMAL. I am talking about noise, poor ride, poor handling, poor performance, poor braking, poor shifting and poor FEEL. If my European car drove, handled, rode, steered and braked as poor as, say, a brand new Nissan Sentra, I would sure as hell pay a lot of money to FIX IT.”
First, please compare apples to apples. A Nissan Sentra is an economy compact designed for people who are very concerned about price, and, at any rate, it is hardly recognized as the best in its class. It does not compete directly with anything made by Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Volvo.
I would hope that those vehicles offer better performance and “feel” than a Sentra. They cost a lot more, too.
Second, the attributes that you mentioned have NOTHING to do with reliability. VWs have had nicer interiors, and a more solid “feel” than competitive Hondas and Toyotas, since the late 1990s. They certainly are NOT more reliable. Every VW owner I’ve known who doesn’t like to tinker with cars now owns something else (usually an Asian car). As the independent mechanic who worked on a friend’s Passat told him, “If you want a reliable car, buy something else, and not another VW.”
I agree totally with what you have written.
> First, please compare apples to apples. A Nissan Sentra is an economy
> compact designed for people who are very concerned about price, and,
> at any rate, it is hardly recognized as the best in its class. It
> does not compete directly with anything made by Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and Volvo.
I am not going to argue with you. I am glad to read about your opinion.
I would just like to point out that both Nissan Sentra and SAAB 9-3 are $20k cars when new.
The cheapest Saab 9-3 is the front-wheel-drive sedan with a manual transmission. It starts at about $29,000. That is far more expensive than any Nissan Sentra.
If the Saab in reference is the Saab 9-2, that one is based on a Subaru…so it doesn’t quite prove that European cars are as reliable as Japanese cars.
Riiiiiight. Like for instance, I have a sister who has to live on the right side of town and drive the right cars…in other words, aspirational Euro stuff. Because I’m the only wrencher in the family, I’ve been getting calls at least monthly for almost twenty years regarding the latest vehicle crisis.
I say ‘almost’ because I finally put her in a Honda last year. The line’s now gone dead.
But if you’re comfortable ignoring all the data and all the anecdotes, more power to ya! Euro handling is the best.
OK SURE YEAH because i can by an alternator for well just about any european car for $30 (what i paid last time for a reman alternator for a chevy 2.8 v6 or a starter for $40.00) In my terms (read cheap old car driving bastard) thats the biggest problem with euro cars. Not that there hard to fix just that their different (which causes some mechanics problems) and parts are a pain in the ass. I can go down to any one of thousands of discount parts houses in the US and buy the parts to repair 90% of the components on just about any Honda Toyota or GM/ford vehicle built in the last 25 years. I can’t say the same thing about most european cars I have spent a bit of time waiting around at dealerships for parts for VWs and to be fair Subarus that really should be a common parts but for some reason just aren’t anywhere else but the dealer.
As a lifelong Honda driver, it was with genuine trepidation that I bought my wife a 3 year old A6 four years ago. At the time, the logic of getting a car that looked new for less than half the price seemed reasonable.
My experience has been that we budget an extra $500/year for maintenance above what an Accord would cost, and an extra $500/year for repairs. This has seemed to hold for the 4 years to date.
I am hoping that her next car is 3 year old Lexus ES or Acura TL, but she really likes Audis, and I really like her.
LS460 out of the question?
I’ve always wondered how the sub $20k 3-4 year old Audi A6 would be. I love their design language. A grand a year to maintain, or just the extra cash in the bank for unexpected repairs over spending $40k+ on a new Audi wouldn’t be a bad deal.
I’m looking to pick up a slightly used (2009+) ES350 in the next 6 months or so. Haven’t had much luck with used cars, but then again I haven’t owned a used car above about $5k, so I guess we’ll see. I guess with a $25k used Lexus, I’m expecting no problems. ;)
I expected that as well, but the wife’s CPO RX350 was not the paragon of reliability initially. Nothing that would leave you stranded, but it would throw error codes and the like. It ended up needing around $1600 of warranty work in the first six months but it’s been problem free during the next eighteen months – figure about $1000 if you went to an indy. Having purchased four used cars in the past four years ranging from $6k-30k, budget $1-2k in repairs (more if you go to the dealer, less if you DIY) to make it perfect as you catch up on deferred maintenance from the previous owner.
Sure, I have no problem buying used European cars – even German ones. Of course I do all my own work and buy only manual transmission cars. The latter probably eliminating 50% of out-of-warranty car problems.
With forums dedicated to brands and even specific models of cars there’s a wealth of knowledge out there that lets a home mechanic keep his cars running for a fraction of what a single visit to the dealer will cost you.
I would definitely buy a Jag XJ Vanden Plas and do the work myself. I’ve always loved those cars. So sleek, low, long… Mine would be royal blue with a cream interior.
I too toy with that idea. I suppose if you do your research and know what your getting into it could be worth it. I hear the mid-90s X305s with the AJ16’s are the best of the litter. I know the early X308 V8s had engine issues through at least 1999.
I could picture myself considering a used Fiat or something innocuous like that many years down the road, but that’s about it.
Edit: I must confess that I would also likely consider a Volvo as well, something like a C30 perhaps.
last year I bought a 1999 MB CLK 320 with 60,000 miles on the clock. Paid roughly US$ 25,000 for it (I live in Brazil, where prices for a 10-year used Benz are around this mark). I visit the local MB Forum every day and learnt I could afford the CLK’s running costs.
since then, I had to replace the engine, its mounts and wedges, the crankshaft position sensor and restore the interior headlining, at a total cost of US$ 6,500 – bar the usual work such as leather care and oil change. and now I have to work the rear suspension, check some electric gremlins at the rearview mirror, discover why is the transmission delaying to shift gears, fix the driver’s seat and the distortion at the sound system.
all in all, I bought a lemon. but somehow I love my lemon and can’t get back to ordinary Brazilian cars. from now on I’ll try to ride only in used MBs and Volvos.
Wow, that’s some commitment right there. Good for you and I’m glad you enjoy the car.
Personally, I’d have a hard time considering a Japanese car that wasn’t made by Toyota or Honda, much less anything from Europe or America. I’m somewhat mechanically inclined and can pull an engine, disassemble most of it, put it back together and put it back in and make it run (done it before on an old beater just to see if I could do it), but I prefer to stick with what I know.
my dad drives a 2009 Civic, which I used for a few days while the CLK was waiting for the new engine. drove it in a 140-mile trip in an open road and all I could think about was “@#$@$%@$ I want my Benz back!!!”.
I understand your doubt, but have you thought about a Subaru? fun to drive with bulletproof mechanics… I’m waiting for the new Impreza hits the Brazilian market to decide whether to stay with the CLK…
(note: I don’t know about the excitement on driving a MR2 as it was never sold here)
Love spotting the *very* occasional MR2 here in Wisconsin. Beautiful car.
“The VW scar is still too fresh.”
2005 New Beetle. Purchase price: $5,000 @ 44,000 miles. Literally owned by a little old lady with a glove box packed full of fastidious and obsessive maintenance receipts from the VW stealership.
Cost of new automatic transmission that was slipping badly? $5,400 installed.
Never ever again.
It did have the most bitchin’, beautiful interior though.
You got SO ripped off its not even funny. No, I take that back, it is funny. Did you even remotely shop around for a major repair on a $5k used car? Or just blindly get it towed to the dealer and bend over?
I’d be more concerned about the fact the transmission was slipping badly at only 44000 miles than the ridiculous $5400 repair cost. But this is just one data point.
I had some engine work done on a ten year old V2 3800 a few years back. The dealer I bought the car from wanted around $2k. I got it done for $1100 elsewhere.
As somebody who’s knowledge caps at knowing how to change a spark plug and a couple of ignition coils, I rely on you talented folks to fix my broken stuff. :)
At about 70,000 miles my 2007 Audi A3 is running great. It’s expensive to service, but I still like it and expect to keep it for a couple more years at least. It’s been more reliable then my 1999 Silverado which started to break around 50,000 miles. At 165,000 miles I keep it around but I don’t rely on it for daily drives anymore.
Lucky.
I was eyeing an A3 after falling in love with my 2012 Focus hatch for my next car… until the stunning revelation about six months in that being 6’5 300 pounds and owning a car where my driver’s seat is situated half a foot back from the B pillar wouldn’t quite work out, long-term. ;)
My only experience is with my 1987 Volvo 740 Turbo. While I drove it I did have to replace a few items: starter, alternator, belts, hoses, windshield, A/C compressor (removed, not replaced), and for all of these engine parts there was a significant price difference between Volvo and american brands, something on the order of 30-50% more expensive, from the auto parts store. I did also shop junkyards for things like the tail-light housing that needed replacing, but engine pieces were from the store and while not exorbitant, fairly pricey.
My dad got rid of a 1993 MB S500 because the A/C evaporator went bad, having the shop/dealership do the work would have cost more than half of what the car was worth, and removing the dash and all the electronic bits to get to the darn thing wasn’t a DIY job. To replace it he got – a Camry. Also factoring into that decision were the other little electronic glitches all over the car, and two facts: it drank premium gas like nobody’s business, and the price of gas had recently spiked from the low $2.00 mark to above $3, back in ’04 or ’05.
You probably won’t believe this, but, I’ve got a neighbor who has gone through 5 (count em) FIVE BMW 745li’s. He never even went for the 750. He keeps a set of “Alpina” wheels and puts them on each new car.
The first car he got ride of for maintenance troubles.
The second car’s engine refused to start because the seat sensor can override the engine’s starter if it malfunctions.
The third car he traded for the 4th.
The 4th car he traded for the 5th.
His newest is a BLACK 745 with 22’s.
I’m watching this wondering…why are you wasting so much money? Just get the new 7 or get the 750. Simple fact is that old BMW’s suck for reliability.
My cousin wanted to buy a used 5-series, but, I talked him out of it. He bought a new Malibu instead.
There is no way in Hell, I’d buy my S550 used because I wouldn’t want to have to pay to repair anything in it considering the cost of parts.
“The second car’s engine refused to start because the seat sensor can override the engine’s starter if it malfunctions.”
That’s special. Only the Germans could do this.
Yes, that is certainly…special.
Sounds like a ride-on mower…
I have owned Fiats, Saabs, VWs, and Lotuses as well as American and Japanese cars. The American cars were the most cost effective, the Japanese were the most reliable, and the European were the most fun. My perspective may be skewed. After you have owned a Lotus, EVERYTHING seems reliable. The only cars I would never by again are German, at least at the high end.
We have done this twice, with differing results.
The first was buying a ’95 MB E320 in ’05 with 85,000 miles on her. It just recently ticked over 100,000 miles, on a trip across the country no less. We haven’t experience anything major outside of normal routine maintenance (more required due to time than mileage). I wouldn’t hesitate to hop in it and drive across country tomorrow. It’s been extremely reliable and not very expensive to keep up, most likely due to being the last of the “golden age” of MB. Sadly, it will be the very last european car we own.
The second has been a major nightmare. We purchased an ’02 Range Rover in ’07 with 60,000 miles. It has been an absolute nightmare, at 145,000. As of today, we have replaced the entire air suspension three times, before finally converting to coils. We have replaced the entire hydraulic break system three times. We have replaced the entire cooling system twice. We have rebuilt the top end of the motor twice. Those are just the major things, leaving out replacing the window regulators seasonally, dealing with stepper fans getting out of sync and throwing the “test book” flag, knowing the SRS system won’t work due to a faulty design that causes the coupling in the steering wheel to wear out from actually using the steering wheel to steer the car, along with a buggy navigation system and a tendency to eat bulbs, tires and brakes at will. I shudder to think how much we’ve spend on repairs and maintenance over the past few years. The worst part of it the entire situation is that we actually religiously maintain it, visiting our independent mechanic for oil changes every 3k miles and following the recommended maintenance program.
Not learning the lesson from the Range Rover, in ’09 we purchased an ’03 Jaguar XJR with 45,000 on it. Thankfully, we did purchase an extended warranty. 3 years and over $18,000 in repairs later, we recently got rid of it. It was so bad, the extended warranty company would have a representative come and inspect the car each time we took it in for repairs. As it is a Jaguar, it takes forever to get repaired as all the parts must be special ordered and shipped from England. (As a side note, it has the same flawed design for the driver’s airbag as the Range Rover.) It literally would sit for months, waiting on parts. When it ran, it was a beautiful car. However, those times were too far and few between.
When it came time to get rid of the Jaguar due to the extended warranty ending, we decided NO european cars. As we’ve had several Infiniti’s during the Range Rover/Jaguar nightmare that were flawless, we decided to buy Japanese that was built in Japan (and yes, there is a HUGE difference from one built somewhere else). So, we purchased a boring Lexus. Is it as beautiful as the Jaguar? No. It is as fun as the Jaguar? No. At this point in my life, I’d rather spend money on fun things like vacations, technology and each other than on a car.
I have alot of respect for those people that love and own european cars. However, today I’d rather have something boring and reliable that something that’ll be great at 9/10th’s of a track, has perfectly communicative steering or has character. I’ve learned those things cost way too much.
“we decided to buy Japanese that was built in Japan (and yes, there is a HUGE difference from one built somewhere else)”
I was just trying to make that argument in an earlier post, it defeats the purpose of buying a Japanese car if its not made in Japan or at the least by Japanese workers or using Japanese parts.
It would be interesting for somebody to investigate this to see if it really is true or just a mental thing, like thinking your car runs better after an oil change…
I think there is one MAJOR difference that makes Japanese cars built in Japan different:
A Japanese worker is praised for stopping the assembly line to correct a flaw. It’s an honor to take your job so seriously that you want to make it 100% perfect.
Imagine an UAW line getting stopped because someone noticed a flaw….ain’t gonna happen. It’s the same all around the world, except for Japan.
Go figure why those cars last longer….
My BIL says I’m playing the automotive version of Russian roulette…
I bought a ’97 A6 Avant in 2006. Got 5+ years and 95K out of it, with a total of only $400 in cost above normal maintenance, and $140 of that was an alloy wheel which would no longer hold air pressure….total capital cost of ownership (net purchase cost + cost of non-routine maintenance repairs) was less than a dime per mile….
So, fresh off that, last fall I bought a W203 Benz….2003…with less than 50k miles….
My theory is…if you know what you are doing, and stick with low-mileage single-owner cars, ya got nothing to fear. I’ll keep ya updated….
Speaking of low mileage, single owner European cars: my daily drive to work and home takes me past my local import repair shop, which is trying to sell a 1992 500E on consignment. Owner sadly has dementia, and the complete service history is all there. Wiring harness, apparently an issue on W124s, has been replaced.
Someone talk me out of selling my problematic Legacy GT for this car. Otherwise Mark, since I believe you commented that you reside in the SW Michigan/NW Indiana area, it could be yours!
As a W124 owner (see above thread about the ’95 E320), I highly recommend getting the 500E. One of the major things has already been taken care of (the wiring harness). The only other expensive issue that you could face is the evaporator. Check to see if that’s been done. Those can last forever or go out, you never know.
As it is a 500E, it’s relatively rare and will hold it’s value better than the run of the mill W124. As long as you take care of it, they’ll always be a market for one.
Good luck! I’m sure you won’t be disappointed if you jump over to it.
Leasing is the only financially sane way to drive German.
Cue all the VW owners who have testimonies about their cars with all of 25k miles and how it’s “so much more” reliable than the Japanese that they had before. My manager’s in the same camp – but with an MB. He usually regales stories of their topnotch workmanship as I drive him to yet another monthly trip to his dealer to pick up his car.
Hey, I drive a VW that just turned over 25K! And it’s been reliable! And I also know that means nothing. I too get a kick out of testimonies(usually from Audi drivers on these forums) who crow about the reliability of their cars over the 2-3 year lease periods.
Lumping all European cars into one category makes for a silly question. It’s like lumping all European people together – it just makes for sweeping generalizations. European cars are much like all other cars – some are good and some are not. The BMW E46 3 and the E39 5 are very reliable cars – other not so much. Do your homework and choose well and you can be rewarded with a great ownership experience. Those who disqualify a car purely on it land of origin are just voluntarily limiting their choices.
“The BMW E46 3 and the E39 5 are very reliable cars…”
I can’t speak to the E46, but I would strongly disagree on the E39 being very reliable.
At one point it seemed like most of my friends and many of my neighbors had E46s. For the majority of them, it served as their first and last BMW. I also had a friend with an E39 528i 5-speed and two coworkers with E39 M5s. Each owner was immediately infatuated with their wonderful new cars, planning on keeping them forever. Their romances turned out more like one night stands than fairy tales. These were the cars that introduced the afflicted to the phrase ‘body computer.’ BMWs have never been the same. E36s were made out of papier mache and hope though, so they weren’t the first throw-away BMWs.
“It’s like lumping all European people together – it just makes for sweeping generalizations”
Didn’t I see that movie already and it was called the European Union? I think it fell apart at the end…
I bought my GTI used, but still under factory warranty. The warranty expired, and I still have it. It didn’t give me any trouble while it was under warranty, and with VWs, I think you either get a bad one which you know abour right away, or a good one that tends to work pretty well throughout its life.
I am mildly concerned, but not enough to get rid of it. Then again, I like to tinker with it, I do most of my own work, all my own maintenance, and I have a freind who is a Euro specialty mechanic to get me out of any big jams at a reasonable cost. The biggest fear is the DSG, which has a 100k warranty, so I guess technically I am still covered for the most expensive parts.
I would definitely own a vintage Euro car, I hope someday to have a classic Porsche 911, or maybe an E30 M3. But I wouldn’t buy anything from the dark ages (1990s-2006ish).
Currently have a 1987 Mercedes 300 SDL. Had it about 4 years, no warrenty since Reagan was in office. Need to make a decision to spend some money on it in the next few weeks vs. pull the plug.
A used European car out of warranty? That would highly depend on which specific make, model, and trim.
A 2.5 Jetta or Rabbit/Golf from 2006-2010 is probably not a bad used car bet, as they have been getting average or above ratings in Consumer Reports and True Delta. A GTI or GLI? Nope, new or not at all. Passat? Nope. Touareg? Hell nope.
You need to do your research; I think there is a bigger disparity between models within a given European brand than you would find with Honda or Ford. DIY is helpful, but isn’t an option for most of us.
I decided to get a new 2010 Jetta 5-banger because the reliability ratings were decent and far better than many contemporary and past VWs. But I don’t expect it to run as long and cheap as the 96 Camry I had before it. If I get 10 years and 120,000 largely trouble-free miles I will be very pleased. I would expect more than that from a Camry, Civic, or Fusion.
Sure, why not? The internet is a great source for parts and information on anything made. Import mechanics are not a special breed of humans which possess the skills to maintain a European car, the dealers are not the only ones who know how a car works.
I would buy a European before trusting another American nameplate again.
Last year I bought an MY2000 Audi A6 2.7L Turbo w/ Manual. I was very hesitant to buy European but I needed a big car and my wife and I refuse to own an automatic. I was very selective when purchasing the car. I sought out a one-owner car being sold by the owner. A stack of service records is more valuable to me than a warranty. It took me two month but I found exactly what I wanted AND found it locally.
The first year of ownership has gone well. Aside from having to invest in a few VAG specific tools it hasn’t been any worse to own than a Domestic, though I can’t say I would buy one again if I had a choice. I appreciate the simplicity of Toyota.
I really miss my Mini Cooper…but not the payment. Once we’re debt-free, I may take a chance on a used one, non-turbo, no CVT. Although Mini’s policy of 15,000 miles between oil changes gives me serious pause.
I’d be willing to own a Saab, Volvo, or XJ6.
Or an air-cooled Beetle…
Which year Xj6?
I vastly prefer the Series III, but I’d go for a XJ40 or X300 if they had a well maintained exterior and the purchase price was low enough.
I’d highly caution you against any XJ. Even under Ford’s stewardship, their reputation is richly deserved.
IF you do take the plunge, remember that ALL parts are special order (as the dealer doesn’t really stock anything outside of belts and hoses) and will need to be shipped from England. If you need something major done (like, I dunno, replacing a supercharger or rebuilding the top end), it’ll take at least a month for parts to come in.
They are really beautiful machines; however, at the end of the day, they are truly like dating a high maintenance, cocaine addicted super-model….
We have a 2004 Volvo V70 (NA) and a 2008 SAAB 9-3 both bought used. The V70 had no warranty and the SAAB’s warranty ended last year. Both have been reliable. The only major problem was a failed air temp sensor in the Volvo that cost $400!
I do worry now that SAAB has kicked the bucket. Will parts be an issue?
I thought the 9-3 was one of the Saabarus.
So, maybe you can get non-cosmetic parts from a Subaru parts-counter?
I think that was only the 9-2X.
My mechanic said he doesn’t see any shortage of 9-3 parts
Owning a European car outside of Europe seems insane. Meanwhile, I’m enjoying the hell out of the American cars and pickups they can’t (so easily) get there hands on. Yeah, if I was in Europe, I’d own all kinds of Lotus’ and BMWs.
Now a BMW or Porsche with an LSx conversion will get my attention. Plug-n-play adaptor kits make it a snap. There’s a whole cottage industry dedicated to the craft. I wonder why…
“Now a BMW or Porsche with an LSx conversion will get my attention. Plug-n-play adaptor kits make it a snap.”
Now you have me intrigued.
If you consider a 1956 GAZ-24 “Volga” an example of a used European car without a warranty, then sure. Well, it was made a little bit West of Ural mountains, so it’s Europe, right?
After 2 BMW E30’s (with E36 M3 engines), 2 318ti’s, E36 325is, Z3 M coupe, and an E46 325i sedan I am rather addicted. I’ve been fortunate to never have any major failure but I definitely keep up on my maintenance.
Also, my mother has had an E46 325iT and 330i ZHP so I sort of consider those mine considering I help maintain, buy, and sell them.
Eventually I need to own a Boxster/Cayman/911 at one point :)
Hell will freeze over first. I have relatives who own German uberjunk, and I want no part of it.
diaff dolt.
Answer to OP.
I will never buy a second hand us junk, with or without warranty. It may work in the us, but in Europe you are on your own.
Warranty or not, after the poor experience I had with a Golf TDI I bought brand new, it’s highly unlikely I will ever buy anything European again – and a certainty I will never buy a VW again.
“Question Of The Day: Do You Ever See Yourself Buying A Used European Car… Without A Warranty”
I did, once. I probably won’t do it ever again.
I bought a 2001 VW Jetta TDI, confident in my mechanical abilities, and with a great enthusiast’s club to back me up (http://www.tdiclub.com). I loved the car from the first time I drove it, and came out of the dealership singing the praises of German engineering. I ended up being pitifully and expensively wrong about the whole thing.
But, I was in my mid 20s, and I had time, money, and a long-distance girlfriend to see — so I didn’t see it coming.
The car ate lots of time and the money, and my then-girlfriend ended up driving it with a failed transmission in a snowstorm. She married me anyway, but I had to get rid of the car.
So, yeah, never again. No more Volkswagens. The whole experience gave me respect for what I thought was subpar from the old beater-Fords I’d been driving up to that point. My new 2002 Escape has been FAR more reliable in 2012 than my 2001 VW Jetta TDI was in 2007, so I continue to gain respect Ford’s reliability — my Fords have been nowhere near as reliable as our Prius, but they’re a freaking lot better than that &$(*#@ Volkswagen!
After this experience, the other German cars look like expensive Volkswagens, after this experience — and I haven’t found any mechanical evidence or statistics to refute that. Volvos look expensive and full of proprietary electronics, but otherwise OK. Peugeot and Citroen are not available in the US, but I have an open mind about them. Opel and Vauxhall are GM, so they’ve GOT to be better than Volkswagen. Chrysler/Fiat looks like the most European car that I’d consider at this point.
“The slings and arrows of European parts and service can be a real eye opener.”
OW! My wallet! [censored] [censored]
Toyota’s parts and service department delivers, and they freak out if they can’t.
Ford’s parts and service department works hard for customer satisfaction but, ya-know, ya can’t win ’em all.
Volkswagen’s parts and service department was hit or miss, and were too sparsely distributed to provide a usable service network. Some were pretty good, and some were lackluster. But they all gained carnal knowledge of my wallet, in situations where those obsolete beater-Fords would have kept running.
Before owning a Volkswagen, I didn’t know that automotive maintainability and reliability had such a low floor in the 21st century. And I’m reluctant to pay more for BMW or a Mercedes, especially when my interactions with BMW and Mercedes drivers often involve a reckless disregard for my life and property.
You won’t see me in a German car any time soon!
P.S. I still really love the way diesel cars drive! Torque FTW!
Bought a used E90 with factory warranty and CPO. Kept a Volvo S60 bought new for 6 years past the warranty. BMW has (wood knocking sound) been without incident for two years. The Volvo…problems, but not unreasonable problems. I did tire or repair costs, which were almost as high at the indi shops as the dealer. The labor rate was lower, but they all swore by OEM parts, which Volvo inflates more than any brand I’ve seen. $20 a quart transmission fluid I can buy at Toyota for $5.
But no warranty? Never, unless it was a project car from day 1 for short money.
I’d do Euro as a project. I treat them with the same level of caution as an RX-7.
What ironic is, most European cars USED to be the standard for reliability and longevity. Older European cars hold up well, but anything from about the late nineties on is usually going to be a nightmare once you get some miles on it.
It seems like most European car companies are content with making disposable vehicles, since most of their buyers gravitate towards short term ownership and leasing, it’s probably not a big issue for them.
It’s a shame too, I almost always buy used, but I have to cross off all sorts of makes that I would love to buy if I thought they had the reliability of the Japanese makes. Audi in particular is one that I’ve seen so many friends own and swear off forever because of the nightmare they become after about 50k miles.
I’ve had 3 9-3s and would buy another out of warranty in a second. The NG 9-3 (2003 on) seem to be pretty low maintenance. Apparently the water pump is a pisser if you have to do it, but I haven’t had to do it…repairs have been minimal.
Fuel pump is a bitch. Saab/GM saved a few bucks by not putting an access door under the back seat. You have to drop the fuel tank.
I bought an ’03 Boxster S six months ago and it’s been a blast. Next will be a GT3 or Ferrari 360/430. For a bunch of ‘car enthusiasts’ most commenters here don’t seem to appreciate cars as much as not having to get off their arses when something goes wrong?
In our defense, some of us only have Mondial money to spend.
+1, but what did you expect from a crowd that regularly extols the virtues of Panther and W-body ownership? It’s definitely a different breed here but a nice reprieve from the usual spec sheet cheerleading at other enthusiast sites. There’s a special breed of enthusiast who just likes cruising down the blacktop with the lowest TCO; handling, aesthetics, interior quality, etc. be damned. And that’s just fine.
I’ve put my money where my mouth is on this one. I bought an 04 330i cash last year, 100k miles, private party so no warranty. Bought it at Thanksgiving, have put 10k miles on it, thus far have had about $1300 in repairs for an a/c compressor, water pump, and associated hardware. Saved myself a shit ton on the A/C buying an OEM compressor online vs a genuine BMW one ($300 vs $900-1000). Also spent a $1000k on tires (not really the cars fault, a G35 wouldn’t have been any better), and $400 on a cracked rim (my fault, hit a pothole). Worth every penny. No regrets.
well I have a new vw tdi wagon with 38,000 and no problems in the 9 months I have had it and am looking for a 04 saab 93 vert with a 5 speed for summer so yes I would and have bought out of warranty (The VW is now out of warranty) I have had a volvo awd wagon and a 98 saab 900 se out of warranty I try to find one owned and tend to pay more than the going rate for the POS that have had 5 owners, so far so good.
I have driven all makes of cars and at 76 years of age will stick with my German & Swedish cars. One think i can not stand is closing the trunk lid or door on an Asian car. It sounds like tin. My wife and i about 10 years ago purchased both a new VW GTI and a Subaru. We had to
sell the Subaru at about 80,000 miles because of the repair bills. Oil leaks, exhaust replacements (The famous “Y” pipe)and of course everything was starting to rust. We sold the VW at 179,000 miles with the original starter motor and only had to replace the exhaust system, brakes and clutch. The body was still in great shape with no rust. We purchased a new Volvo and VW TDI a few years ago and they are trouble free cars. Would do it again
The solid sound of the doors closing on my Infiniti G37 sedan is equal or superior to the quality of any of my friends’ European cars. All four Nissan products I’ve owned have been very reliable and well built, especially compared to my horrendous experiences with VWs (purchased new) and with many (but not all) of the American cars I’ve owned. I will say that of the four Nissan products, the three built in Japan (300ZX, Maxima, Infiniti) were superior in quality and reliability to the Tennessee-built Altima.
The problems my friends and family have experienced with VWs, Audis, Mercedes, and Volvos, in and out of warranty, could fill a book (one friend maintained a spread sheet of repairs on his A6 that ran on for pages and pages). Most have moved over to Japanese makes. People here in SoCal buy lots of cars and there is no question that the German makes have superior snob appeal. But over the years as time becomes more valuable, reliability becomes more important.
Depends strongly on the model. A 2.5L VW and a Range Rover are very different things…
I am approaching 127K miles on my VW Phaeton which has been flawless save for rear wheel bearings at 71K. I naively bought it 3+ years ago for $13,500 at 85K. Having read many horror stories from other Phaeton owners, I am not going to espouse German quality. Just lucky I guess. I’ll keep it until something catastrophic happens, which the more I read, the more I feel is inevitable. But my experience with it does have me eyeing a 2002 E39 525i manual for my wife, that belongs to a little old lady friend, 53K, new clutch, mint condition. She wants 11K for it. I am tempted. My wife doesn’t like automatics much :)
In Europe seems they tend to burn cars out a mosaic of frustration – your questions answered. The dealers this side must LOVE their profit margin. Deutsche brands tend to get driven very aggressively by their show-off owners. After all, if you’ve got it and paid for it you might as well try using it. Shame about the rest of that traffic giving the superior driver frustration.
I too am partial to Saab, and recently purchased a 2000 BMW 540 m sport.. The saabs have never let me down, but in two months with the bimmer. i have had to play mechanic on the highway and in strange parking lots… Still fun. I f i were not mechanically savvy (and drive around with my tools in the trunk) i would have been bankrupted by this car already.
I’ve been very pleased with the 1984 Peugeot I bought a couple of years ago . Other than one flat tire nothing has gone wrong . Oh , that’s right – it’s a bicycle .
I bought a 9-3 new, 1997. Car lasted in my care till 2008, where, at 180k, it developed an intermittent “no start” condition, which meant I had to rescue wife and small children at mall….a few times. Replaced crank sensors, DIC, plugs. Still pooped out occasionally and mama was not secure with it. It got cranky as time went on, but overall wasn’t bad. I’ve seen it now in hands of owner #3, a “kid”. Needs another exhaust manifold donut. Replaced it with an Acura MDX…which has NOT been any less cranky than my euro cars, so “buy a Honda” didn’t work.
My e46 has 285k. I change fluids on schedule. You can diy a lot, I’m on my third alternator, second fuel pump, fourth set of plugs, second set of oxygen sensors. Control arm bushings are every 80k. Third set of shocks, second set of end links and bushings. Parts aftermarket are “normal” prices. I specifically didn’t get automatic for this reason. I’ve also gone to 16 inch tires from 17 staggered because of a need to rotate and because NYC roads suck and 16’s last a lot longer.
The key is to learn YOUR car. I could be a BMW tech at this point but I work way too slow. Aftermarket means answers to issues like “where does my window wash go ?” – check the gasket at the bottom. Preventative maintenance is key for any euro car-you cannot wait until it pukes.
Just did two window regulators, DIY. $140 each, plus switch, another $50. BMW window regulators break where a plastic clip holds a steel cable-both died the same way. Installed price for two window regulators in two months would either make me buy a new one or swear off BMW.
I must point out that my BMW is easier to fix than my Acura, and the quality of metal fittings are far higher in the BMW. It is a “better build” and as such is easier to fix.
I would buy a used BMW…with a manual. I can fix everything normal. BMW makes the normal bits easy to fix. You do need to realize that you can’t, as someone said, get “generic” parts for it, but I have NEVER used that sort of stuff, ever anyway. All my cars get OE or known good aftermarket bits. When things wear out I see it as a chance to improve the car. Some things, like bilsteins, work better than OE. Drilled rotors were less a good idea.
At some point it becomes like an airplane. Some parts are new some are old, but age of the airframe doesn’t matter.
Oh, and the clutch is original.
Sure I would. I don’t believe you can get a BMW 2002 or E30 3 series with a warranty. Probably would be tough to get a warranty on a grey market Defender as well. Anything newer than that though…not on your life.
I’ve owned literally dozens of European cars in the past 25 years, only three WITH a warranty – my current ’11 BMW 328i wagon, my previous ’08 Saab 9-3 SportCombi, and an ’02 Golf TDI. I have owned two non-European cars, my very first car was a hand-me-down ’82 Subaru (rusted out in 8 years), and the ’02 Jeep Grand Cherokee I bought a few months ago as a ‘beater’. Most of my European cars were bought VERY well used, the lowest mileage Volvo I have owned had 91K on it, the highest 255K when purchased. I’ve had Saabs, Volvos, BMWs, VWs, Mercedes-Benz, Peugeots, Alfa Romeos and Triumphs. I’ve had excellent service from nearly all of them. Occasionally I bought a turd, it happens when buying (well) used cars. One Volvo was just a disaster, and so was one Peugeot. One BMW needed a lot of work to bring up to snuff but was a fantastic car in the end. My first Saab 900T was a true moneypit, but my last one went 4 years with nothing breaking at all but maintenance, despite having nearly 200K on it. So I think I have a pretty good handle on the whole thing. Maintenance is key. As someone previously said, you need to be proactive, not reactive. You need to use good parts. I can buy cheap crap Chinese parts for next to nothing for my Jeep at NAPA, but guess what, parts at the Chrysler dealership are JUST as expensive as BMW parts, if not more so – small clips and stuff are just egregiously expensive from Chrysler. BMW gives a 15% discount to BMW club members too.
I guess we will see, unless BMW brings the diesel, manual, 3-series wagon over, I plan to keep mine a long, long time. I’m sure it will break occasionally, and be expensive to fix occasionally. It was certainly expensive to buy, but I think it is good value for the money. Better than my buddies Accord that is on its third transmission and needed $1500 in fuel and brake lines at 10 years old due to rust. And unended CEL issues, and brake rotors warping all the time. I have NEVER replaced a hard brake line on a European car, even at 20+ years old.
My parents had a 1995 E300 from 1999 until 2006. I have serious doubts about the durability and the reliability of that car. It had trouble starting when warm, i.e. after being turned off after a short drive in town. Hot and cold starts were both fine. A diesel expert and an independent M-B mechanic in Seattle never solved the issue for good. The cruise control rarely worked, and when it did work, it sometimes cut out abruptly. Taillights repeatedly burned out or lost their connection. (At least there was a warning light to alert the driver.) Both power seats usually failed to move in at least one direction, usually fore/aft for the driver and recline for the passenger. One time my mom had to drive somewhere perched on the front of her seat because she couldn’t move the seat forward. The driver’s door lock didn’t like to go down, even when the other three locks went down in unison. That was fun: Go to open the door, forget the doors are still “locked”, and the alarm sounds as you successfully open the driver’s door. The seatbelt anchors for the front seats both eventually came loose from their mounts on the transmission tunnel, so the arm holding your seatbelt receiver slid freely forward/backward. I’m sure that would’ve been great in a crash. My parents fixed the taillights again and again, gave up on most of the electrical stuff, but never did find a cure for the warm start problem. At 140,000 miles, they sold it to a local “green” car company specializing in diesels, biodiesel conversions, hybrids, and electrics.
I miss the diesel. I miss the monoblade wiper. I miss the style and gravitas of the W124. But I wouldn’t even think of having an old M-B as my daily driver.
Yes I would. However, I don’t think they’re superior in anything, and my curbside observations tell me cheap looking interiors are not exclusive of any origin.
I have a small list of the ones I’d like:
BMW E34 5 series
Saab 900/9-3, from the classic to the most recent ones, although I’d prefer the 94-02 ones. One coworker who is into old cars told me the old ones are the cool to own due to its quirk factor.
Alfa Romeo 159, that thing is just gorgeous
A Range Rover
VW Golf MKIII
A 911 Porker, 964; 993 or 997, whatever money permits. Air cooled a plus
Sköda Octavia, wagon or car. A Superb wagon would be nice too.
There are a couple of US cars down here I’d like to buy too
am looking for a 04 saab 93 vert with a 5 speed
Interested in an’04 Aero with 40k? I was looking for a gently used 2-3 year old Mustang GT…like such a thing exists. The Saab was available off-lease and the extended warranty has proven to be golden.
Past experience with an Audi, BMW and Volvo would dictate either a good warranty, deep pockets, or an innate ability to use a wrench.
But in real life terms, nothing drives or is built like a European car although the Japanese have approached the neighborhood.
Someday I want to own a Benz….
I did…once. Never again.
Had a used Fiat and used Audi. I would say pretty much like drug addiction.
I have, and I’m glad I did. It may be GM, but it was designed and built in Europe. I’m slack with maintenance and servicing, in fact it’s well overdue now for several routine items.
But still it ploughs on without even a hiccup or a sign of failure. I got it for a great price, and it’s the best thing I’ve ever bought.
I had a Renault-5 LeCar. The drivetrain was simple, tough and reliable, but the body and chassis were made out of paper mache. My sibling ever so delicately glanced a curb in the winter, and the rear wheel folded up underneath like hydraulic landing gear retracting. I would have been furious, if I hadn’t seen it myself. Instead I was astonished by the flimsy design.
One mystery that I could never figure out, was why the Corrado VR6/SLC had such good handling rep, when the suspension seems totally conventional. If they could do it, why can’t any anyone else? And why don’t they make cars like that again? (Excepting Type-R as another example.)
Only if it’s a toy I plan to wrench on for fun. Maybe one day I’ll get a Toyota powered Lotus for track and autocross fun, but more likely not. One out of warranty Passat was enough for me.
Me: Owner of a 15-year-old Audi A4.. looking for another old Audi to dump money^H^H^H^H^Hlove into…
I’ve only driven European cars (French and German) my entire life since I am European and live in Europe.
I’ve never had any major issues with those cars. Throughout the 1970s and early 1980s I worked for a wood company that required me to drive all over France, Belgium, Holland and Switzerland to negotiate deals with forestries and private firms, land owners and such. During this period I drove mostly Renault and Peugeot company cars (Citroens were considered to expensive) which I kept for two to three years. Because of the amount of driving I did, I put close to 50,000 km on these cars in just the first year (they were all diesel by the way for fuel mileage). I never had a problem with any of these cars. I did all the basic maintenance myself and the dealerships replaced worn out parts when needed.
Once again these French cars were very reliable. They never failed to start and they never broke down on me either. Yes they were cheaply built, had mismatching interior panel gaps and they were loud at speed but they were comfortable, spacious and above all RELIABLE. There are very few problems that came up here and there but they didn’t affect the way the cars drove. Most of the time the biggest problems were rubber seals which quickly wore off and of course rust. All these cars suffered from rust issues so after three years of driving them you could see the rust slowly accumulating on them.
One of the cars from this period I still own today, well my son does. A 1982 Peugeot 505 Break diesel. This was the last French company car I had and I loved it so much that I bought it when it came time to turn the car back in. It currently must have about 340,000 km or more on it and in the mid 1990s I had the car professionally restored to prevent more rust build up.
The German cars I’ve owned were/are very reliable. This includes my Mercedes 230E W123, Opel Ascona C and my ex-2010 VW Jetta 2.0 TDI. I recently bought a 2012 Citroen DS3 coupe and I look forward to many happy years with it.
Here in Europe we’re happy with our European cars. We also maintain them well and we keep them for longer periods to. The average European keeps their car for 7-10 years according to a latest study from the Swiss Tagesschau. If our cars were as unreliable or expensive to fix as people claim they are we wouldn’t buy them. The fact that we continue to buy our European cars indicates that we’re happy with their quality and their reliability.
If European cars are so terrible, how come I see so many used ones offered with major mileage on them – even Jags! How’d they get that far?