James writes:
Dear Piston Slap,
My mom wants to get a Land Rover and asked me to do some research for her. Right off the bat, I didn’t think this was a good idea due to reliability issues. I’m not sure if she would want a Range Rover or an LR4, but she would probably get a pre-owned one from Carmax. I get the impression that the LR4 is less reliable than a Range Rover.
She and my dad live out in the middle of nowhere, so there would be no Land Rover dealers close by. The nearest one is 86 miles from home. Their house is on a dirt and gravel road that does get extremely muddy and treacherous. They also have a large Weimaraner that they want to take with them on long road trips to New York.
Before my mom got the idea that she wanted a Land Rover, she was seriously looking at a Honda CR-V or Pilot. I don’t want to be a dream killer, but I need to know if Land Rovers are generally reliable, and if not, what would be a good alternative that offers true utility for muddy roads and large dogs.
Sajeev answers:
Go with your gut feeling: of course Land Rovers are not reliable!
Well, that was easy.
Now for the alternative mode of transport: bouncing between a Landy and a Honda CUV/crossover (not SUV) is two extremes I wouldn’t consider for your application. If you live on a dirt/gravel road in the middle of nowhere, get a real SUV with a more sophisticated 4WD setup. Maybe a Subie, maybe a Jeep. While its not on par with an LR4’s luxurious design, the new Jeep Grand Cherokee is probably the best of both worlds.
Don’t get an average CUV, you might get stuck in it. And for heaven’s sake, don’t get a Land Rover: it will break often and you might be stranded in it too! For different reasons than the CUV, naturally.
While I normally hate to use manufacturer’s marketing lingo, a “trail rated” Jeep is probably the best bet here. Off to you, Best and Brightest.
Send your queries to sajeev@thetruthaboutcars.
Normally I’d say go for your dream vehicle, but depending on a used Land Rover for your link to civilization while living close to 90 miles from the closest LR dealer seems a bit risky.
I agree with Sajeev on this, the JGC is pretty nice inside and offers solid 4×4 performance. An Expedition King Ranch/Yukon Denali/Land Cruiser/LX570/Navigator/Escalade or similar full size BOF SUV (well, not sure if the Toyota and Lexus are BOF or unibody, but good offroad none the less) will offer plenty of space for the dog, plenty of luxury, plenty of capability for muddy roads, and a bulletproof reliability record.
A 2011 or later Durango would provide more room than the Grand Cherokee with the same level of comfort and luxury. Carmax has fully loaded 4x4s with the Hemi engine for well under $40k.
Since this will actually be used as an SUV, the low clearance of the Durango’s front lip may be an issue. The new ones I’ve seen are closer to the curb than a CVPI.
There’s a reason that Land Rovers litter the Carmax lots….because they know their clients don’t read sites like TTAC and can therefore be ‘dazzled’ by the shiny things….like a bling bling LR which is just off lease, value cratered by depreciation, and prime for various expensive bits to fail and/or fall off.
Yep. The epitome of Baruth’s disposable luxury.
Run like Hell from anything Land Rover related. The newer Jeep GC & Dodge Durango are good choices overall but they are really bad on gas. I have rented both for business use and the rate at which they Hoover fuel would keep me from owning one.
The GC with the new 3.6 ain’t too bad. The HEMI in these, yes, hoover.
If you know they’ll be shopping used and dead set on SUV I’d suggest a used Toyota 4Runner. The Toyota will hands down be the winner in long term reliability over a Rover or Jeep/Dodge. It’s still a BOF SUV and can handle a dirt road just fine.
I’m also not so sure that a CUV like the Pilot wouldn’t suffice. We use a Pilot for getting around hunting land just fine, although the land is mostly flat it does just fine traversing farm fields and non-maintained paths. 150,000 miles w/out issues thus far and literally thousands of gallons of gas saved over the old BOF Explorer it replaced.
A dirt/muddy road and some potholes isn’t a big deal. I know plenty of people that live far off the beaten path that do just fine with modern FWD sedans. My grandfather’s farm was 10 miles in from the nearest “tar” road and he never had problems with his 1980’s Celebrity. More important is safe driving and good tires. SUV’s, 4WD/AWD will not save you from careless driving and improperly maintained vehicles.
I was going to suggest 4runner or land cruiser. Do NOT get a Highlander (or whatever the other brands equivalents are), it is just a jacked up Camry that occasionally decides to send power to the back wheels. At the other extreme, any scooby with enough ground clearance for their purpose will be fine.
I love my land cruiser, but the original poster did mention long road trips with the dogs. Unless you own a refinery, this is not an are they excel in though I believe the 100 series rigs to be a little better in this respect than my 80. Yes. they are reliable but they must be fed and cared for…they aren’t appliances.
The highlander aint so bad. We’ve got an 03 4wd with the v6. It handles snow and ice with no drama(now, in the interest of full disclosure, thats Georgia snow and ice). It sends the power to the back wheels when it needs to, but not in any form you’d notice. It replaced a explorer xlt with Advanctrak(is that its name?), that was a rear drive that occasionally was supposed to send power to the front, but in practice, anytime power was supposed to go to the front, it generally fouled itself and threw transmission codes.
The Pilot is probably what they want, room for the dog, 4wd as an option. Anything more off road oriented is probably overkill.
+1 on the tires too.
If you love your mother, DO NOT let her get a Land Rover. ESPECIALLY the LR4. Cool story about an LR4. My buddy’s girlfriends brother wanted a “different” kind of SUV, not just another T-Blazer, Tahoe or Explorer (lives in UP Michigan before all you anti-SUVers get all bunched up).
He asks me and buddy what he should look at (not a car guy). We tell him stick with what works. A Blazer, Tahoe, Grand Cherokee, Explorer are generally pretty durable and parts are cheap and easy to come by. You won’t regret it.
He says he found an LR4 that he really likes, plus it’s different. We say, “HELL NO DON’T DO IT”. He does it.
3 days after purhcase, timing chain skips and ruins the motor. Used car dealer refused to fix it. Sold it at a massive loss. Now he drives an ’02 Tahoe.
DON’T LET YOUR MOM BE THAT GUY.
“3 days after purhcase, timing chain skips and ruins the motor. Used car dealer refused to fix it. Sold it at a massive loss. Now he drives an ’02 Tahoe.”
All LR4’s would still be under warranty, sounds like BS to me.
Thanks for the correction. The vehicle in question was an early 2000s LR2. The Escape looking one. It had an outrageously expensinve to replace 2.5L V6 in it.
Rover KV6 doesn’t have a timing chain.
Post 1999 KV6 engines are reknowned for their (good) reliability, pre-1999 are hand-grenades. All Freelanders would have had post 1999 engines. However the cam-belts require a setting tool since they are not keyed, a non-franchised dealer could well have stuffed this up.
Nevertheless, it appears you are basing advice to someone buying a newish Landrover Discovery on anecdotal third hand information on a completely unrelated 10 year old product with a different engine and unknown service history – right?
A Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Pathfinder, or Jeep Grand Cherokee is a better alternative. I currently own a Honda Pilot, and its a great car, but its no offroad vehicle. And any truck based SUV will be a better for towing too.
Don’t discount something like the CRV. Its all-wheel-drive system is quite capable, assuming you aren’t rock crawling. It catches slipping tires almost instantaneously, and it has enough traction to pull a Dodge Ram 3500 sideways off a dirt hump that stranded it. Sure, it looks more at home at the mall, but it’s up to a lot more than appearances might lead you to believe.
Could probably say the same for a Jeep Patriot. Surprisingly capable, and cheap.
Mom, I think what you want is a Land _Cruiser_. If a Toyota isn’t upscale enough she can get the Lexus LX570 version. Either way, they’ll do everything a Land Rover will except for the unexpected stuff you don’t want it to do.
My parents live on what was once voted the worst road in the lower half of the state for winter navigability. Dirt, slush, collapse, bad drainage — it had the works.
Consider the 2008-2012 Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner V6 “4WD” AWD system with a reasonably civilized off-road/multi-terrain tire. It has worked like a charm for them.
Once you eventually get out of the dirt quagmire, you want something that isn’t horrible on civilized roads – which the Escape fits. If you want luxury, the top trims were reasonably nice, and you can even get a remembrances-of-Jill cross-stitch trim if you get a Mariner Premier.
I compared against the Jeep products and found the packaging on the trucky Escape (NOT the Kaga Escape) was more like the old Cherokee than, say, a Liberty. In my mind, the Cherokee is probably what you really want, because it was what I really wanted in the same situation, but you can’t get one that’s anywhere short of a fully-flogged state. The Jeep products also seemed to get horrible gas mileage for no real performance boost. And, of course, the Jeeps are unibody, just like the Ford-born-of-Mazda-626, so no big fight there.
Not gonna argue that the Escape isn’t a good choice (because it is)
Also agree that the Liberty gets abysmal fuel economy for no reason
What I came here to say is that I am pretty sure the Liberty is BOF. The Cherokee was unibody
The jeep liberty gets horrible gas mileage because it has a four speed automatic, just like my 1987 jeep does. But they are going for 30% off 0% for 72 months and you can add a lifetime warranty on all the non consumables for $1900
Amerikans are so profligate! A little old lady who owns a large dog and lives in the country needs a new car so the “Best and Brightest” recommend a Dodge Durango 4×4 with a hemi. I imagine if this same women had a problem with rabbits raiding her garden these same people would tell her she needs a Barrett .50 cal with a mix of HP and armor piercing (in case the rabbit hides behind a barrier) ammo and a gen 4 night vision scope, rather then an inexpensive .22 rifle or .410 shotgun.
I would vote for a Honda Fit with some good tires. I live on a farm in central MN and manage just fine with a Civic Si and snow tires. If the mud is bad I just maneuver around the ruts and potholes my neighbors create with their trucks. If there is a blizzard I either clean the road off myself (with a skid steer) or, think about this novel concept – stay home until the county snow plow shows up!
I too drive a Honda Fit and live in the snow belt. I’ve never had a problem and would not consider a 4×4 vehicle for my own personal use. Not everyone, however, is the same as me or shares my personal views on vehicle choices. James’ mom has a different view and is free to make her own choices about what she desires to make her feel comfortable knowing she can get to and from her house safely on any road condition.
Drove my Miata in Watertown NY for 3 years. Ground Clearance is a problem as it had a tendency to high center on the diff when I backed out of the driveway if the street hadn’t been plowed recently. My beater Saturn Wagon would do the same. Yes, people do tend to buy bigger than they need in this country but some people out there do require ground clearance believe it or not.
2 adults plus a mid sized dog? What about an extended cab Tacoma? If you just gotta have something big an ecoboost F150. I’d get it stripped with a vinyl bench and put the dog in the middle but if she was looking at Land Rovers I am thinking she won’t go for the work truck. Country dirt roads, dogs, and the desire for something rugged and reliable? If only Ford still built the Ranger.
Karaya1, a front-wheel-drive vehicle can do a lot of stuff. I drove an old, old Civic around for miles in the extremely rare but always paralyzing 8- to 10-inch snowfall in Atlanta in the early ’80s, while virtually everyone else was stuck. It went everywhere. But if my mother had been making that drive, I would have wanted her to have the CRV my wife and I got years afterwards.
Ah, yes – point well taken. If it was my mother (who has passed on) I would probably reach a similar conclusion.
I dunno. The worst problems I see in snowy weather are not related to cars being unable to accelerate (which 4WD helps with). The vast majority of winter wrecks are related to vehicles being unable to decelerate. 4WD won’t do squat for that. Snow tires will.
Obviously, you don’t want to recommend a Land Rover or a Range Rover, unless they come with a mechanic on call.
There are a couple of trade-off that have to be managed here. Trade off #1 is size vs. fuel economy; and trade-off #2 is true 4wd vs. fuel economy. If your mom needs something as big as a Pilot, it’s very reliable. However, on a good day, mine will get 22 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. And it’s 4wd capabilities leave a lot to be desired (my experience in snow). If she doesn’t need the Pilot’s size, then the Honda CR-V is a good choice for better fuel economy and reliability. Neither of these vehicles or any other “AWD” vehicle that uses a clutch pack or viscous coupling to drive the rear wheels is going to stand up to heavy 4WD use . . . just take one to the beach in soft sand to find out.
OTOH, true 4wd vehicles like the Jeep Grand Cherokee, Durango, old Explorer, 4-Runner, Pathfinder etc. tend to be more thirsty than their CUV brethren of the same size.
So, if the roads your mother has to traverse could be negotiated by a FWD vehicle, then probably some sort of CUV will do the job. If the going is heavier than that (long stretches of deep mud and or deep snow) then I’d go for the 4-Runner or Pathfinder or JGC. The Toyota Land Cruiser is a tank on wheels and is very nicely appointed. It will go anywhere, but use a lot of fuel doing it. It also is expensive to buy.
Range Rovers have, without a doubt, the most drop dead gorgeous, scrumptious interiors of any SUV made.
That’s the problem with advice. No matter how much you know (and just from listening I think a lot of you guys know a lot) you can’t really put yourself in someones place. I am an old folk like you guys are so often worrying about and both my vehicles are 2wd. One of them is not at all modern and rwd. I wouldn’t dream of changing either one and am pretty content to stay home when the weather is bad.
That said, I suspect Mom would do quite well with whatever nonbritish car she might choose. Concur on the rovers and from my personal experience the europeans in general. A minivan would probably work quite well and allow her to get another large dog.
Hope she enjoys whatever she buys.
The person looking for a Land Rover is probably not going to get overly excited about a Trailblazer or an Explorer. I would consider the Audi Q5 (excellent reliability regardless of what one might read on TTAC) or the dreaded bimmer X3 (with the 3.0si engine of course). Perhaps even the Lexus RX. These are the more appropriate comparisons to the landy, and notice I left out the merc.
X3’s off road abilities are not good, no wheel travel.
I sold all 7 of my Range Rovers, last one a few months ago. I am no longer best friends with my mechanic and the Land Rover service techs.
I drive Land Cruisers, no soul no character, but none have ever stranded me. I’d recommend that or a 4Runner.
You must be rolling 100 series or newer rigs. The 80’s have plenty of character and I’ve never heard of the 60 or 40 being called soulless. You want character import a 70 series troopy.
I ran LandCruisers and various Land Rovers as fleet vehicles all over Africa, the MidEast and SE Asia for the better part of a decade.
Avoid Land Rovers, period. The ONLY context in which Land Rovers make sense are A.) urban style, in which case you are close to and can afford a dealer or B.) you need Defender capability, in which case you probably have a full time driver/mechanic.
In no other context does a Land Rover even behind to make sense versus a Toyota/Lexus LandCruiser/LXxxx.
Don’t do it. You are asking for trouble.
Thanks for your expertise and advice. When I worked NATO, we’d trade vehicles and go and play on days off. I liked the Defender but I’m clueless on how much the motorpool SGTs have work to keep them running.
If you need Defender capability, there’s the much cheaper and more reliable alternative, Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.
Honda Element.
It’s practically designed for carrying a dog, can be had with four-wheel-drive that’s good enough for what most people will do, and it’s very easy to get in/out of, use, etc.
The CR-V, RAV/4 and Escape (in that order) are good choices, too (as is, eg, the Forester, but it’s less reliable and dealers thinner on the ground) but the Element is more pet-amenable.
Unless they’re rock-crawling and/or need full-time four-wheel drive, these are all fine. If you do need that kind of capability, think 4Runner or, if they have money, the Lexus GX (which is basically a nice 4Runner).
Agreed. You don’t need a trail-rated mud bogger to negotiate a gravel road. Just about any AWD CUV will do fine. I have an Element, a good friend has a Land Rover. He’s gotten to know his LR dealer very well. In 70K miles, my Element’s never been in the shop, except for oil changes when it was under warranty. I can guaranty you my friend would not buy another Land Rover.
Element interiors are pretty spartan, CR-V maybe better for the folks. Same drivetrain, nicer interior.
Elements are handy but that’s about it. Ours is a dismal 4WD sending only about 20% to the rear axle when most of your take-off weight goes there. It will spin the front tires easily on wet pavement and in snow it might as well be FWD. Ours was good for 70k as well, for the most part, then things started to unravel. They eat struts due to the heavy tire/wheel. I’m ok with a car needing routine maintenance but in my experience with Honda it’s not been pretty. They have proprietary assemblies that you MUST go to Honda for and it’s not a cheap trip. For example the ball joints can’t be replace in the original steering knuckle, you have to buy a new knuckle from Honda at about $350 ea. Then, once you’ve done that you can replace the Ball Joint only from then on. I bet your ball joint boots are torn at 70k, if you can see them through the rust. Now my ABS light is on and my indie mechanic says it’s a Honda only fix. I’m done with Honda like some people are done with BMW’s. So much so that, relative to this post, I’m seriously thinking of dumping the E and buying a Disco II for a third car camp truck. At least then I can sink money into a car I like and want, which is what LR’s are about anyway right?
Did your parents get by without 4WD before this? (rant on)Modern advertising has tried to make us believe you absolutely must have 4WD if your road isn’t up to autobahn specs, has a handful of gravel, or you see more than three snowflakes(rant off). CUVs/SUVs are popular, if your mom wants one, she should get one. CUVs are praised for their dog hauling capabilities. She should buy what she wants except for the Land Rover. Disclosure: I drive an Escape. I grew up in a similar area, we didn’t get a McDonalds until we got the one Wal-Mart in the county.
I have two Land Rovers, both Discovery series. The older 1998 one has 150K miles. I’ve had it for 10 years, and it’s been the most undemanding, easy to maintain and cheap to fix vehicle I’ve ever owned.
Based on the context you provided I’d suggest your mom gets something other than a Land Rover. Otherwise she’ll be yet another wrong Land Rover owner type complaining about these vehicles on the Internet.
+1. I want a Disco II regardless of what everyone says
Across two Discovery and five Range Rovers in the last 15 years, I can’t really think of any cars that our family has had which have been more pleasant to own.
Were it not for the present journalistic fad of worshiping nonsense like soft touch buttons and lush overdone interiors, Range Rover would have been forcibly ran out of the American market on a rail 20 years ago, and the used one chopped up and made into something usable and worthwhile, like Chinese sinks.
Range Rovers are hideously, monstrously unreliable Pieces of sh!t. “The Truth About Cars” has fallen flat by not vigorously exposing just how rottenly unreliable and brutally undependable these things are.
Larry,
Your tone went form this “Range Rovers have, without a doubt, the most drop dead gorgeous, scrumptious interiors of any SUV made” to this “worshiping nonsense like soft touch buttons and lush overdone interiors, Range Rover would have been forcibly ran out of the American market on a rail 20 years ago” What happened over your luch hour?
The first post was playing on the irony of automobile journalism’s obsession with interior decoration at the expense of everything else (including basic reliability, with is completely lacking with Range Rover.) The second one spelled it out in a more straightforward manner, in case the irony was missed, for the clueless.
In my experience it’s been the opposite. Does that incense you?
foad mate.
At first I was leaning Mountaineer or XC70, but now I think she’d be happiest with a GX470.
How about a Ford Flex? It sort of looks like a love child between a Mini and a Land Rover but your average Ford dealer can service it.
I second the Flex. It can transfer 100% of it’s torque to either axle and has plenty of comfort and room.
This is easy: She wants Euro flair without the British hassles? VW T-Reg or Saab 9-4X. T-Reg JUST AS capable as any LR/RR or Jeep.
I doubt the V-dub or Saab is as capable as a Wrangler Rubicon.
What happened to intestinal fortitude in America? We grew up in a mountainous area that averaged 10 feet of snow per winter. We drove full-sized American sedans with RWD and open diffs with winter tires. Don’t remember ever being stuck. But I do recall my father giving me many hours of instruction in driving on snow. Used to be a talent I guess but now 4WD and electronic nannys handle everything.
3 days after purhcase, timing chain skips and ruins the motor. Used car dealer refused to fix it.
thought these have a cam in the middle valley, they were buick or olds engine just like any N American V8.
I guess he must had a different type of engine.
are normal US vee 8 interference type of engine?
usually the chain doesn’t skip at all.
The Rover V8 had it roots with a Buick design, but IIRC LR quit using it in 2004.
The LR4 uses a Jaguar V8.
Granted, I don’t know what the road looks like and what your budget is, but a Subaru Outback or Forester seems like a good compromise, with 8.7 inches of ground clearance on the newest models. It’s much more reliable than any Land Rover I know of to boot, even factoring in the head gasket issues on older 2.5L engines. You can get heated seats, dual-zone automatic climate control, panoramic sunroofs, Xenon lights – they aren’t the oxcarts they used to be.
Go ahead and get the Discovery. Get an old Land Cruiser as a back up and rescue vehicle. Equip both with snatch straps and good tow ropes.
It does not matter what you drive when you have old faithful to fall back on.
Jaguar/Land Rover suffers from finicky British engineering and you are more than likely to be stranded in one. Sajeev’s suggestion of a Jeep Grand Cherokee was spot-on, in my opinion. But if you want something that is an actual truck, the Lexus GX (in either current GX460 guise or previous-gen GX470 models) is a real body-on-frame truck with towing and off-road capabilities as well as a standard V8. And of course it has that magic Toyota reliability…
“Jaguar/Land Rover suffers from finicky British engineering”
And the nationality has what to do with it exactly?
I owned a Land Rover Discovery Series 2 for four years. I loved it. It was unique, comfy and amazing off-road. It climbed hills I couldn’t walk up (or down). It was a V8 and I had it converted to LPG to increase range and halve the fuel costs. BUT – I sold it because I could not afford the maintenance. Small oil leaks would ruin the brake pads. The gearbox stripped the main shaft spline. Every service cost close to a thousand dollars.
I replaced it with a new BMW X5. Great car, sort of a sports sedan with tow and off road capabilities. BUT – it cost triple what the Landie had cost new. maintenance however was cheap and predictable.
Both of these are too much 4WD for your mum I expect. I would second whoever recommended the Subaru Outback.
The problem with used or CPO European cars is you don’t know where they’ve been. That’s true of all cars, but you hear over and over how European brands don’t the have reliability issues in Europe like they do in the U.S.
Consider the short commutes and cooler climates Land Rovers usually see in the UK. Are you in a south western state? Is your used Land Rover from southern California? Done time on the 405? With lots of 80 mph escapes to the Palm Springs with the A/C on max?
Sajeev,
I just happened on this site, although I’m not a regular reader, and have to say I’m disappointed by your article. As a blogger/journalist and presumed car enthusiast, you should be embarrassed to have provided advice that is based on outdated stereotypes. You possibly swayed someone from enjoying a vehicle that they might prefer to others and is in fact very reliable. Contrary to the lingering myth, modern Land Rovers are quite reliable cars, as is most any car sold today. Sure, V6 Freelanders and P38 Range Rovers had some major weak spots, but those haven’t been produced for close to a decade. I have owned nine Land Rovers over the years and have only had one that caused me anything more than what I would consider normal issues, a 2000 Range Rover. In fact the rest have been more reliable than other cars I’ve owned that have a much better reputation for quality. My current Land Rover is a 2006 Range Rover that just turned 100k miles, with no problems other than replacing the radiator at 80k. Impressive record for any car, not to mention one as complex as it is. And it drives like new…not a squeak, rattle, or leak to be found. Wish I could say the same for my BMW with 80k. In case you think this is an anomaly, or argue that Land Rovers still have higher than average number of repairs needed, look at the data…sure having a car that will, for example, statistically require 0.8 repairs vs. 1.5 repairs over time makes the latter less reliable, but is that really a big enough difference to sway a reasonable person, especially one who has any interest in cars, from driving the car they prefer? No. The reality is that no current production car can realistically be classified as unreliable – they’re all that good. Anyway, it would be great if, as an auto enthusiast/writer, you shared up-to-date, non-dramatized opinions, rather than lore.
Spot on Rangie, the cultural stereotyping of British engineering as being unreliable as if that is a quality somehow genetically ingrained in British people is verging on the racist.
Whatever reliabilty issues plagued some British cars was reflective of the miniscule budget they were working to and had nothing to do with the fact they were designed by Brits.