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The upcoming Lexus GS F retains the IS-F’s intense shade of blue, but lacks the bulging fenders, giant wheels and other visual cues that scream “please take me seriously as an M3 competitor”.
Using the RC F’s 5.0L V8 and 8-speed automatic, the GS F will be positioned as a rival to the BMW M5, the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG and the Audi S6. It will be the only super sedan to offer a naturally aspirated V8 as well.
79 Comments on “2016 Lexus GS F, Now With 25 Percent Less Aggro...”
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I like the paint color, but not on a Lexus. And those seats look nasty and not luxurious. But hey at least it only has quad tips and not sexto tips like the IS F did/does.
The North American fascination with “sport everything” needs to end.
But racecar…
No, I’m tired of it! Even my car is TOO sporty. I don’t wanna have to buy an MKS.
You will eventually come over to the dark colored pre-owned Lincoln side…
You will eventually come over to the dark colored, pre-owned, Lincoln s!de.
You mean like a dark cherry metallic MKS with dark woods? :)
I don’t even really want the EcoBoost one. But I do want AWD.
My problem with the 3.5EB D-platform cars/CUVs is that I am always going way faster than I think. They are such large, quiet, insulated vehicles with linear power. There isn’t a tunderous exhaust or chasing of torque. They aren’t “sports” cars or “performance” cars. It is quiet, comfortable speed.
The 3.7L is enough engine for the MKS. However, if you found a car with all of your required options that also had the 3.5EB, I would tell you to buy it.
Yep here it is.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lincoln-MKS-EcoBoost-AWD-2013-mks-ecoboost-awd-satllite-bluetooth-heat-seat-park-sensors-wood-19-/381110519692?forcerrptr=true&hash=item58bbf5078c&item=381110519692&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Wait at least two model years.
Mmmmmmm. Throwback Brougham.
Hasn’t it been 2 model years already? Though in 2 years the Taurus will be gone and thus the MKS as well?
It seems the MKS will have a replacement. Specs are fuzzy right now and point to a stretched MKZ like thing. Hopefully the new Ford/Lincoln RWD SUV/CUV/whatever will spawn a Lincoln sedan.
So wait 2 years when MKS replacement model comes out, which kills the value of the ones on the previous platform. Then find a brown one.
Good plan!
Oh PS: Owner of that brown one must have put some additional wood kit between the shifter, which is ghastly. Would not buy.
Corey-
The value is already toast compared to new. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. The 2013s and newer are more popular now because of the refresh.
Just wondering about 28’s comment on waiting 2MY.
Wait two years as in the 40-50% LiMoCo depreciation hit is in within the first two model years.
MK-Continental’s platform did not change, AFAIK it was sheetmetal and other cosmetic changes only in the last release. MK Zephyr changed *platforms* from CD3 to the CD4 and should be completely avoided in MY13, but should be ok coming up for MY14 aside from being incredibly ugly.
I just submitted them but the Rancor ate it.
Essentially, LiMoCo models take their greatest hit in the first two model years.
MK Continental (D3) and MK Flex (CD3) did not change platforms for their refresh and thus should be safe through the current MY for Continental and Flex for MY14 as used options after two model years. MK Zephyr did change from CD3 to CD4 in MY13, thus MY13 should always be avoided IMO. Stick with either MY10-12 or skip to MY14 for Zephyr which should be hitting the 50% mark this spring/summer (19s to low 20s).
Based on extrapolations I made last year for CD3 Zephyr, LinMoCo models should sink to the 30-35% of msrp figure by year 6/75K+ (assuming continuous driving/use) and then hold there until year 10 or more.
MKS goes to the Fusion platform. Will be built in Flat Rock.
No Taurus replacement.
You know what? I completely agree. It’s okay to be quiet, comfortable, luxurious, and fast.
They will sell 3 of them.
The Internet commentariat that will say “oooh, it’s like a reliable M5” would never buy such a thing (since they live in their parents basements), and the people who buy such a thing buy M5s and S6s and AMGs. Because even fast Lexi are ugly old fart cars.
It’s also way down on power compared to its erstwhile competitors. Who all have about 100hp more and likely a crapload more torque down in the lower revs.
“down on power compared to its erstwhile competitors”, and also not likely to grenade the engine due to bearing failure, like some competitors I won’t mention. Look folks, I realize that the audience here represents a mixture of car buffs, but that extra power can sometimes come at the expense of reliability. If a car performs in a stellar fashion long enough to win all the magazine accolades but just barely makes it past the factory warranty without catastrophic failure, then give me the car that’s a little bit lower in power 100 percent of the time. And no I’m not defending Lexus because I’m a Lexus owner, nor am I intending to unfairly attack any particular comment.
That’s a fair point, but not necessarily one that reflects the reality of the market. If buyers in the segment are willing to trade lower reliability for more power, then Lexus can argue the point all it wants; it’s not going to win them over.
In the US anyway, I don’t believe that the evidence is overwhelming that buyers are willing to trade lower reliability for more power. If they were, then Lexus sales wouldn’t be almost 92 percent of BMW sales, it would be a much lower number (yes, BMW sold more cars, but not by a staggering amount). US 2014 sales numbers: BMW sold 339,738 cars, Mercedes sold 330,391 cars, Lexus sold 311,389 cars, and Audi sold 182,011 cars. (http://www.autonews.com/article/20150105/RETAIL01/150109997/jeep-ram-drive-fca-to-20-gain)
Just because BMW has a sporty image doesn’t mean their lineup is powerful — their wide range of four-bangers, oil-burners, and SUVs speaks to that. (Every other new BMW I see on the road is an SUV, and most of the balance is either a 328i/428i, 528i, or 535d.)
A better comparison would be comparing volumes against the cars it’s supposed to compete with.
@Aquineas
But Lexus sells hardly any cars outside of the US. And most of what they sell in the US are tarted up Toyotas, AKA RX350 and ES350. The number of cars they sell that actually compete with the Germans, as opposed to Buick, Volvo, and Lincoln, is very, very small.
Not that I think sales are the end-all and be-all of anything. They are really good cars, they just don’t interest me very much, and their current styling is pretty unfortunate inside and out. And the performance models get even more unfortunate ladled over them.
@Darkwing
And don’t forget, once you get to this level in the market, issues are painless. You drop the car at the dealer, they give you a loaner that is just as nice as your car, and off you go. My BMW dealer will come and pick up my car for that matter (even for just routine servicing), and leave me the loaner if I want them to, I assume a Lexus dealer will do the same.
Virtually all cars of this price bracket are leased, regardless of brand, so any nth degree of added reliability is utterly moot to the original purchaser. And as Michael Karesh has pointed out many times, the difference between worst and first these days is about an issue a year. With lots of cars of all brands having no issues at all.
Not to agree with you on the reliability aspects, because I don’t, but the reality is that nearly no-one who buys new $70K+ super sedans keeps them more than a few years. Because why would they? There is always the cool shiny new one to buy. Used buyers buy at their own peril, as usual.
We can agree to disagree, but without throwing specific manufacturers under the bus, there is a healthy representation of folks having bearing failure problems with surprisingly few miles on the odometer (as in, 40K or less). One’s mileage may vary. We can both probably afford to buy any of these cars, and I suggest we vote with our wallets and be done with it. I’m okay with you spending your money on whatever you desire :-). Honestly, I don’t give a rat’s ass about a couple of dozen horsepower at 8500RPM. I do want to know that with regular maintenance, my car will produce that power reliably and not leave me stranded with oil leaking from under the hood. I traded my Acura TL in with 165K miles on it. Biggest expense was changing the timing belt. I don’t think I ever raced it once, and my phallus didn’t shrink one millimeter. The automotive mags are too often guilty of not balancing their reporting.
They’re both good cars, but the Lexus just won’t sell as well. Less HP, less torque, no manual option that I see (not even DCT), and about 450lbs heavier than an M3. Lexus may sell around the same number of cars as BMW and Mercedes, but BMW and Mercedes sell a signifcant amount more than Lexus in M and AMG cars.
They will not sell many as Lexus simply isn’t the go-to brand for performance buyers and the styling doesn’t match the sporting intent. It will also most likely get terrible mileage from the NA 8 and still be left behind by anything equipped with BMWs N55.
Having said that, I just can’t hate a NA V8 powered RWD sports sedan wrapped in the stealthy (read: boring) sheet metal. I wouldn’t buy it new but as a CPO it could be a hell of a family hauler,
I have a friend, who lives in his mother’s basement, who actually bought an IS-F having preferred it over an M3 & S4. I believe in his case,the competition was equally priced?
I believe the GS-F will be priced significantly less than an M5 or AMG E63. No? I’m asking a question here.
Corey, indeed the seats! Hideous!
GS-F
Type 5.0-liter V-8
Output 467 HP @ 7,100 RPM
Peak torque 389 LB-FT @ 4,800-5,600 RPM
Transmission eight-speed automatic
M5
4.4 V8 twin turbo
Torque: 502 ft-lbs. @ 1500 rpm
Horsepower: 552 hp @ 6000 rpm
E63 AMG
5.5 V8 twin turbo
Horsepower (hp @ rpm) 577 @ 5,500 rpm
Torque (lb-ft @ rpm) 590 @ 1,750-5,000 rpm
Yeah, what does one of these things cost? Like $70k? That’s a substantial discount over the M5 and E63. CTS-V will eat this thing alive though.
Are you never happy? Or at least slightly less self-satisfied? You don’t like Toyota ’cause they don’t do sporty, but when they field a legitimate drivers car you still drip with indignation. If Lexus did manage to engineer something that bested the established Germans in performance, looks, and price would you be able to admit it?
30-mile fetch,
Lexus did that with the IS350, which even BMW’s own lap dogs at Car and Driver admit is decidedly superior to the latest F30 335i in every way that matters. krhodes protests get ever more shrill the longer BMW goes without producing an attractive car that is actually good to drive.
I remember that article and being surprised by the results. C&D has been a consistent long-standing critic of Toyota because of their driving feel, so if they place an IS350 at the top of a sports sedan comparo it actually means something.
The problem with the IS is the web’s fixation on the 2.5L. Every conversation and review has to fall into the gravity well of that engine’s deficiencies even though you can have an IS350 for 328i money, similarly equipped.
I expect the M235i I ordered yesterday will be *highly* entertaining. Euro Delivery in August, taking my Mom with me for 3 weeks in Central and Southern Europe. She has not been since before I was born, and even then only to England.
Ultimately, I don’t care about this class of car from any of the makers. Too big to be much fun, I don’t need the room, and 500hp is just silly. Just calling it as I see it, and the sales numbers will back me up. Not saying it isn’t a nice car, it is just a slightly irrelevant one. I’d drive one if someone gave it to me. Just look at all the comments already about how it will make a great CPO car. That doesn’t help Lexus one bit.
I REALLY wanted to like the Lexus IS, especially the pretty wagon they used to offer. But as usual, they just can’t quite get it right for me. A little too cramped, and no stick. And that instrument panel was just silly over the top. If I could have one of those at 110% scale with a stickshift, I’d probably have one. I REALLY like the CTS-V as a concept, but it is just more than I have any need for – can’t get the regular CTS wagon with a stick.
The M235i is more than I need too, but at least I can get it equipped exactly the way I want it. Stickshift, no sunroof, but the toys I want. If it weren’t for the sunroof issue, I just would have gotten an M-Sport 228i.
Hopefully you’re planning on taking the A95 south out of Munich. It’s short, but it’s a hoot. Gorgeous, too.
BTW CJinSD, if Lexus would build me a new IS350 wagon with a stickshift, I would probably buy one. Though they would also probably have to do something about the predator face, I can put up with a lot aesthetically, but that does push my limits. I think Audis look a ton better than BMWs too, but I don’t like how they drive.
I’ll readily admit that the F3X BMW is not their finest effort. But having driven both a couple original 2012’s and recently a 2015, they have come a long way in just 3 years with the feel. For me, it is still basically that I did not see a need for the sport package on my e91, but I would have to get that option on an f31. Anyone looking for harder edge than that is out of luck at the moment. I prefer a suspension that actually lets the wheels move up and down, personally.
Has a non-German manufacturer ever made a car you like?
Has a German manufacturer ever made a car you don’t like?
He also sings the praises of French and British cars, so he’s obviously the final arbiter of quality. Did I mention he also bought a Fiat 500 Abarth? He’s comic relief, mostly here to try to convince himself he isn’t a fool for his horrible taste in cars.
In fairness, I don’t believe he’s a fool for his taste in cars. The problem is he represents the nth percentile of car owners. Unmarried, no kids, no commute, time and resources and desire aplenty to wrench more high-maintenance machines. Buying a high mileage BMW is no trouble for him, and good on ‘im for it.
But for those of us who are too busy with other aspects of life to deal with more time-intensive niche cars, an Accord that needs nothing but oil, tires, and brake pads for 100K miles represents pure freedom and luxury.
Thing is, I haven’t really had to. I have never had any sort of catastrophic failure with any of my high-mileage European cars. Just wear and tear. Bought cheap well used, fixed them up, drove them for a good while with minimal issues, and sold them on to try the next interesting thing. And I certainly did have a commute for most of my career, and I regularly drive long distances for work even now. I would not put up with an unreliable car any more than anyone else would.
I’m lucky to be at a stage in my life now where I can indulge myself by buying new pretty much anything I darned well please. But even if I had a wife and kids, I still wouldn’t drive a Camry. I’d just keep buying used interesting cars, instead of new interesting cars.
At this point, I really feel like I have three long-term keepers. I have had my Spitfire for 19 years, it fulfills the fun in the sun and take it to classic car shows niche. The Range Rover is the perfect tow beast and winter beater, I’ll keep this one until something catastrophic does happen and buy another one that looks just like it. The BMW wagon is the perfect daily driver, I can easily see keeping it forever – there is nothing on the market like it anymore. That leaves the 4th slot in the garage to rotate to always have something new and interesting. Currently the Abarth, soon to be an M235i.
And trust me, considering that I spent *150+* days in hotels last year, you guys with wives and kids who sleep at home every night have FAR more free time than I do. I’ve only had 4 weekend days free in the past 8 weeks!
And really CJ is just being a tool. The Abarth still has not had a single thing go wrong with it, the only reason I have been back to the dealer since the 30 day inspection has been to pickup some touchup paint for a stone chip. Everyone should be so lucky. Two very minor issues with the BMW in nearly four years. That may be two more than an Accord, but nothing that couldn’t have waited until it was going in for service anyway.
Let’s see – I have owned a dozen Volvos, 7 Saabs, 8 Peugeots, 2 Alfa Romeos, and a Fiat. And a Subaru, a Datsun, and a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Also two Spitfires and a Range Rover. So yes, I do believe there are some non-German cars I would buy.
Currently produced cars I would consider buying if I had different wants/needs:
Buick Regal
Ford Fusion
Got my Mom to buy a Prius-V, and it is perfect for her – if I had a long urban commute…
Chrysler Minivan
Ford Flex
Chevy Cruse Diesel
Chevy Suburban
Mazda CX5
Mazda 6
I have respect for the Accord, I just wouldn’t buy one over a Fusion
According to MT they are only importing 200 of these things to the US so it’s not like they have a chance of being a common sight. I have a hard time bemoaning a quite powerful naturally aspirated V8/8 speed auto luxo rocket that happens to have what is regarded as the best chassis in its class.
Hmmm, a slight improvement, IMHO.
From Fugly^2 to merely Fugly.
If you think that front end is fugly now (and it is), picture it with a front license plate splattered in the middle of that maw.
people will knock it for sure… but in 5 years time, it’s resale value will trump the Germans… this will be a great used car without all the worry of the German metal… would take this over a Hellcat too….
At the Baltimore auto show this past weekend my dad decided we should take a stroll through Lexus and commented about the hideous maul almost all their vehicles now wear. I told him its called “Predator face” and he didn’t get it. That’s when my awesome wife pulled a photo up on her phone to show him saying “Once you see it you cant un-see it”. The look on his face of disgust was priceless.
Ahem…
“Get to da choppa!!!”
The Lexus front theme is the 21st-century version of the 1961 Plymouth Fury.
‘Tis a pitty wrt the looks. When I finally gave up my 2012 C300 4 matic when I determined that the benz folks really should try to find some EE engineers who got higher than D- in their durability classes, I went to see Lexi.
Gasp.
Please, Toyota, bring back the original 400. My old college classmate has one of these still in pristine condition (with over 250k) and to me – at least – it represents what a luxury car should look (and drive) like. And the darned thing still tops well over 20 mpg on the highway…with its wonderful v8.
When the LS400 and the ES300 came out there was no question that they were exactly what they were designed to be comfortable, refined, elegant, technologically advanced luxury cruisers with real world drivability. Almost immediately everyone dumped their Cadillacs and Lincolns and ran to these cars. Even Mercedes and BMW owners were lured in by their reliability and equal levels of performance at a far lower price. In one year Lexus surpassed both BMW and MB in luxury car sales
For the next 15 years it was all about the Lexus when it came to luxury cars, then it wasn’t.
What happened?
“What happened?”
First, Lexus slowly but steadily raised their prices until they were essentially on par with the Germans. Those LS400s and ES300s that sold so well on introduction were priced well below the Germans.
Second, Lexus coasted on their reliability and reputation for interior quality a bit too long. Powertrains didn’t keep pace with the Germans in terms of either power or sophistication. Styling remained static, both ins!de the car and out (until the current generation).
Meanwhile, the Germans released things like the E9x and the B6/B7 A4, and Audi and to a lesser extent Benz turned up interior design a bit. The momentum slowly shifted from Lexus back to the Germans in the top-end segments, and Lexus continued to dominate only in lower-cost near-luxury segments (where the ES and RX play). All of this resulted in Lexus losing cachet over time. In 1995 it was a legitimate Benz alternative. Today it’s a sensible-shoes brand for people who have money but are too rational to buy a Benz.
Now they are trying to catch back up, but they need a bunch of products they don’t yet have to do it. They need a CUV more interesting than the RX as currently configured. They need (finally) a new, world-beating LS. And they need this GS-F.
More succinctly, “leasing happened.”
Reliability and bulletproofness was Lexus’s (and Japan’s) trump card. But now that 80% of BMWs are leased, who cares what happens after 50k miles? And it’s got a warranty and free service to get you to 50k. And oh by the way, that BMW premium that guys like me hate to pay goes away when they subsidize the leases. If you can stomach a $500-600/mo payment in perpetuity, BMW’s business model makes a lot of sense (until the residual value pyramid topples, but whatever).
I really think it was more the bargain prices that Lexus had back in the day.
And the difference in the percentage of Lexus that are leased vs. BMWs that are leased is rounding error. Nearly ALL luxury cars, no matter the make, are leased. Because if you are going to buy a new car every few years anyway, it makes more sense to lease it.
It’s to bad that sweet engine is attached to that car. The front end looks like a Baleen Whale.
“It will be the only super sedan to offer a naturally aspirated V8 as well.”
Called it.
Anywhoo. I like the way this looks. I guess I’m a wierdo.
I am worried about the ostensible power deficit, however. What is good about an NA V8 is that the Lexus probably won’t need “creative” intake/exhaust plumbing or an MP3 track list to make the engine audible to it’s occupants.
What’s more is that out of all the hotted up Luxo-sleds this will probably be the least likely to require a dedicated Amex for repair and maintenance after the warranty expires.
A Powerball conundrum for me! Hellcat Charger, CTS-V or this GS-F…
Quite a lot of want for this one, particularly if the price is right (which I’d define as being significantly cheaper than a M5). Unfortunately even at the right price I can’t afford it.
This is a Goldilocks power level. Fast, but (unlike a M5, CTS-V or Hellcat) usable on the street. The engine sounds insanely good and, from everything I’ve read (not having driven a F Lexus) should have very nice power delivery. The engine is attached to a nice, relatively lightweight (for a luxobarge) chassis which is responsive and capable.
Lexus interiors show few signs of cheapening and the car should be as reliable as any other Lexus over a period of years, which is really what distinguishes Lexus (and Acura) from Ze Germans.
It’s not a very pretty car but it has enough other virtues to make up for it.
I think it will look good in darker colors. While this may not have the stats of an M5 or E63 AMG, it will likely be $20k cheaper and 2x more reliable. It will be interesting to see how the throttle response, power delivery, sound, and steering feel stack up, as that’s more important to me versus picking up .5-1 second 0-60. All of these cars are fast enough for responsible public driving.
It’s surprising they’re actually releasing this car. I figured Lexus had given up on the 4DSC thing after they canned the IS-F. Good on them. Now, if I could request they get rid of that terrible mouse and GPS interface and put the buttons back in, I’ll keep an eye on these on the CPO lot.
I don’t mind the looks, but I don’t have the money for one of these.
I’ve seen exactly one IS-F in my car crazy area. They are outnumbered by Nissan GT-R. That is how rare they are.
Not making ANY penetration here in the gilded bedroom communities of New York City.
V8noturboV8noturboV8noturboV8noturbo.
V8notorqueV8notorqueV8notorqueV8notorque
Don’t care. The specs on the engine are plenty for me. I really enjoyed the way the IS-F went about it’s business and I’d assume this will be similar.
I love it when 389 lb-ft is considered ‘no torque’. Yes going FI would yield much better low end, but count me in with Dal below as someone who will mourn the loss of some wonderful screaming NA engines. IMO at ~4 liters this was more of a real problem for NA V8s since they were basically making NA V6 torque and you had to wind the crap out of them to make power. At 5+ liters they can make more than enough torque for all the sideways shenanigans you desire. I love turbo torque and cheap tunes for big gains, too bad they usually sound like poop :(.
And V8heavy……
And also don’t care.
Really, does anything outs1de of a big truck really need a heavy V8 anymore. With so many healthy V6s available, unless you’re just a horsepower freak, why?
I think in this price range and vehicle class “needs” are less of a concern than desires.
It may be possible for Toyota to build a great turbo V6, but for now they don’t make one and I like the Toyota 5.0L V8 so I’m happy that it lives on.
I’m not a turbo fan yet myself, so I get it
Drive the Ghibli — with an overboosted V6 trying to make up for two missing cylinders — and when it runs out of breath, you’ll understand
Sound.
I’m fully aware that in many cases the new crop of turbos are objectively better engines than their more cylindrically endowed predecessors. The example krhodes1 keeps harping on – the BMW N20 vs. N52 – is a great example. The turbo four has much more area under the curve, is much more efficient, and is more tractable. The same is true for just about any of the new crop of turbo fours and sixes compared with the engines they are replacing.
But they just don’t sound as good. And until I’m driving an electric that makes no sound at all (which is actually OK with me) I want the sound to be refined and beautiful.
That’s why I’d rather have Lexus’s 8 than BMW’s ungodly boosted 6 in this class, despite the torque deficit. And it’s why a V6 Accord gets my attention more than a 328i even though it’s wrong-wheel-drive and built more cheaply. Irrational, but true.
Agree on the sound. As apparently do the specific manufacturers who make their sound up with audio pumped in through the cabin.
In my personal opinion only, here is the great debate. I’m sure this car will be great, but at the moment, we have nothing more than stats and pics. Those that think like me and are craving the driving experience, the emotion that come from driving and that search for the next 10% will struggle with this car. Lexus performance is known for heavy, sterile cars. Far too many nanny controls, added weight, and usually coming up short in engagement and performance compared to competitors. People like me will gladly pay more money for an extra 5% without thinking twice. In this price range it’s rarely about value or price. The other debate is that Lexus just doesn’t have the image, the history, or even the visual dynamic style that the German competitors do (BMW M, Merc AMG, Audi RS). It’s already a small segment that will consider this car, but I think that as capable a car as this car probably is, buyers in this segment have higher expectations that what this car can deliver, but actual reviews will tell the story and I look forward to more.
Driving experience and emotion are excellent, wonderful points, and those are traditionally areas the Germans, Italians, and English have excelled in. As far as heavy, if rumors are to be believed, the new GS-F is allegedly lighter than the M5, but we’ll see what the final numbers are when it’s released. The truth of the matter is all the creature comforts and safety aids that we take for granted weigh a lot. I’m not as hung up on marketing terms such as “history” and “image” as they are non-quantifiable and will have no bearing my daily driving or ownership experience. I won’t come out to my car and see an emblem and think, “Wow, I feel just a little bit better about myself today!” Now I can see someone getting an extra smile from enjoying taking a particular line on their favorite curve on a detour home from the office, or enjoying the sound/rush of acceleration on an onramp.
I’m with krhodes1 here- I am failing to see the point of these cars. F30/IS/ATS etc are the size of what I think of an M5 etc to be. These are huge. The extra performance/edge of this over a GS350 or an M5 over even a 535i (let alone a 550i) is wasted
If its priced well it should be competitive. It is not really an M5 competitor IMO, its a Sport 550i ($66k) competitor which is good. Although its amazing how much car/engine a Charger 392 is for the money. You can get his kind of speed for $35,000 less. The used car market is only going to get better :)