Buick announced Friday that it will bring from China the Buick Envision to sell in the U.S. next summer, two years after that car was introduced overseas, and that it will be the first Chinese-made car from a domestic manufacturer.
Automotive News reported that the small crossover would go on sale sometime around August, earlier than expected from initial reports last month.
When it goes on sale, the Envision will be powered by a 2-liter turbocharged four that makes 252 horsepower and will only be offered in all-wheel drive to start. The model will be bookended by the subcompact-sized Encore and full-size Enclave and fill a substantial need for the premium automaker.
The Envision is constructed on General Motors’ replacement for its Theta platform that will eventually underpin the new Chevrolet Equinox and GMC Terrain.
The new crossover will likely start near $35,000 to fill the void between the Encore, which starts at around $25,000, and the Enclave, which starts near $40,000.
The Envision will be roughly one inch longer than the Audi Q5 at 183.7 inches and less than one inch shorter than the Acura RDX. Both premium crossovers start at more than $35,000 — the RDX is priced closer to $36,000 and the Q5 starts over $40,000.
The Envision will be assembled in GM’s Shandong facility.
Start the screaming of “No way am I buying a Chinese made POS” in 3, 2, 1 . . . . .
Aw Hell, I think it is a prudent move on the part of Ms. Barra. It maximizes profit from this division, expands choice and is cheaper to build in Shandong than in the US, and without UAW issues.
But how well it sells at the $35K hinge point? Time will tell, especially if compared to the equally viable Jeep Cherokee, and the comparative Enclave vs Grand Cherokee, and Encore vs Renegade.
Grand Cherokee competes more with the Murano and Edge if anything as it lacks the rearmost row of seats. I don’t see anyone cross-shopping a bottom-barrel Renegade with a Buick; a Trax maybe.
Probably right. The Buick line in toto is not that great of a seller in the US. But for the fans, this China-built Envision will be a nice addition to the line-up.
And if it doesn’t sell well right off the bat, there’s always the rental market. And then the resulting secondary market of used program cars. They’ll get sold, one way or another, even at $35K, to the snobbish who think Buick has some kind of cachet.
For awhile there, used rental/program cars were a pretty decent buy for those needing transportation, but the demand for cars is at such a high level these days, that good deals are few and far between.
Between now and Jan 2017 is the most excellent period to buy that new or gently used car. Money’s cheap. Loans are super-easy to get. Gas prices are way down and going lower. There’s nothing to hold a potential buyer back.
The Envision as shown at Automotive News looks to be the size of a Ford Escape.
So, it may be be GM’s answer to the Lincoln MKC.
The right thing to do would be to update both the Equinox and Terrain to this platform at the Springhill Plant. Then build the Buick version there.
No screaming from me. Anyway, my guess is that GM will be happy with 25,000 to 30,000 a year here. Their real attention will be on selling a Chinese only-made car to the Chinese. It’ll go something like this, “Buy the car made here in China that Americans love! From Buick, of course.” they’ll sell 80,000.
Syke, the cognitive dissonance is stronger with you, based on your past comments & opinions expressed, than with most any other member of TTAC.
Keep waving the American Flag, talking about Harley-Davidsons, speaking of your deeply ingrained knowledge of the American working class’s plight, while cheering on Chinese made & exported to the U.S. Buicks!
My experience has been that is is best to buy a Japanese car that is made in Japan, German car that is built in Germany, American car that is made in the USA, a Swedish car that is actually made in Sweden, etc., etc.. Maybe others have had similar experiences?
Yeah right, Volvo’s made in Sweden.
How can you even compare Japanese cars made in Japan with German cars made in Germany is beyond me.
The process is simple: you put shit in you get shit out.
What was the end result of Honda’s Chinese Fit run in Canadia? I know they stopped selling the Asian built cars, but how have those held up the past couple years?
Wasn’t that driven by the Canadian unions to have them built in Canada? I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking.
I’m sure they’re the greatest vehicles ever built. I mean, nothing says world-class quality like a GM built vehicle, and Chinese quality is legendary. Slap a Buick badge on it and it’ll be the new industry standard for quality. I really didn’t think GM could advance the standard for quality they’d already set but now they’ve reached the pinnacle. All other small crossover manufacturers should pull out of the market now to avoid the giant losses they’re all going to endure once this thing reaches our shores.
HDC…..The Honda plant in Ontario is not unionized
Thanks, Mikey.
@highdesertcat Hondas for the North American market:
Fits and HR-Vs are made in Celaya, Mexico
Civic Sedans in Alliston ON and Greensburg IN (plus Acura ILX up to 2015)
Civic Coupes and Si’s only in Alliston
Civic Type R (Future) in Swindon UK
CR-Vs in East Liberty OH (plus Acura RDX), Alliston ON, and (few) in Mexico
Accords in Marysville OH (Plus Acura ILX andTLX)
Odysseys, Ridgelines and Pilots in Morrisburg AL (Plus Acura MDX)
I spoke to a salesman at our local Honda dealership here in B.C. and it was a disaster.
Cars off the transport truck wouldn’t run properly, as the gasoline from the factory was garbage. I’ll leave it to your imagination what the quality of the rest of the vehicle was like. I have a Japanese-made Fit and it’s great, but I wrote an e-mail to Honda telling them I’d never buy any of their vehicles again, after being a loyal 25-year customer, if they came from China. That was before I heard this from the salesman.
For me, it’s quite simple: I would not trust the metallurgy in Chinese cars. Here in Victoria, B.C., we’re in the middle of a fiasco with construction of a new bridge. The city chose the lowest bidder for the steel beams and structural elements, and that was a Chinese supplier. We’ve now had numerous delays due to substandard steel and even when the contractor tried to more closely monitor quality control, it’s still happening. Budget overruns and timetable delays. It seems I recall hearing the same thing happening on the new spans of the Oakland Bay Bridge in San Francisco.
Simply put, their quality control is crap because they either don’t know how, or don’t give a damn because profit above all is all that matters to them. Either way, it would be a cold day in hell before I’d knowingly buy an automobile from China or containing Chinese metallurgy.
Just what is G.M. thinking?
I worked in the copier industry for 28 years, mostly on Japanese brands that were made in Japan. Months could pass between service calls UNTIL they started being manufactured in China. New machines out of the box would be missing major components. Chinese metallurgy sucks—-there was no guarantee that something as simple as a spring would have the same tension as the part it was to replace…..and don’t get me started about the shoddy electronics!
The Chinese can’t even properly forge something as simple as a crescent wrench let alone automotive or bridge components.
It’s not so cut-and-dried. Chinese manufacturers will build as cheaply or as strongly as the company demands. We’ve got Chinese tools that have lasted 25 years and ones that have lasted 25 days.
It’s a combination of not knowing and not caring. I’ve been over there to meet with Chinese steel fabricators. They buy Chinese steel, but don’t keep track of where it comes from or who they bought it from. But they still need to provide mill test certificates before importing to the US.
They admitted to us that they just fabricate the certificates to get meet the demands of Customs and their customers. They had stacks of fake certificates ready to go with their steel products. No clue at all what the characteristics of the steel really are, or who made it.
OK I’ll bite
“No way am I buying a Chinese made POS
Seconded. I have never had a product from China larger than say a washing machine that would give me the confidence to buy a car they built. Ironically this would be a car I would look at in the next 3 years when the wife’s Hyundai is due for replacement. She wants a similar vehicle but a little nicer. This will not be on my list.
I bet that they’ll sell like hotcakes! This is what Buick needs badly
It’s so very telling that GM expects American buyers to not notice the difference between their normal mediocrity and Chinese build quality.
This is the modern-day equivalent of the Yugo, but at ten times the price.
GM and quality don’t exist anyways. They might as well make them cheap….
General Motors is still the same incompetent, bloated, mismanaged carcass of of an inept institution as it has been since the 70s, alive only due to massive direct and indirect U.S. Government (i.e. Taxpayer) subsidization (past, present & ongoing/future), and it can not and never will be run in even a remotely competent manner, but unlike British Leyland, will be kept alive for an indeterminate number of years thanks to those massive past, present and ongoing/future taxpayer subsidies.
It should have taken its final dirtnap in 2009, never to be resurrected.
Oh, please. They can very easily replicate the same quality (or lack thereof, if you’re a hater) in China as elsewhere.
Sure they CAN, if they post inspectors with real authority in the factories. The Mac I’m typing this on is Chinese-made, and it’s stunningly well crafted….because Apple has people staring over the shoulders of every line manager. GM will farm it out to the son-in-law of the factory owner and call it done.
Won’t buy a Chinese car either…unless it’s an Apple.
Yes, I’ve got three Chinese suppliers that can and do produce amazing products and quality – but they know it and charge accordingly. It’s all about “you get what you pay for”, not where it’s from.
That’s just it. GM knows that Americans WON’T notice and WON’T care. It doesn’t matter that the taxpaying public (American workers, you know?!) footed the bill to bail them out. Better to send work to China and forgo hiring those that kept the lights on. I’m embarrassed and upset that I pretty much convinced my mother to buy her Verano as her last and final car. My family had largely been a Toyota family for thirty-plus years but I sold her on the American Verano. I doubt I’ll look at GM vehicles again, but I also am painfully aware that I am in the minority and that the majority of American consumers won’t give a whiff as to where the car is assembled (much less China). Sure, there will be some flare-ups for complaints about the Chinese-made SUV, but GM also knows Americans have short-term memories and the noise and din will die down and sales will plow forward allowing for more made in China vehicles to grace GM’s dealerships (just come on down for that Fourth of July sale as the Red, White and Blue flags wave proudly over those Chinese cars!).
A blah CUV with crap quality?
Yup. Just like the Encore they sell today, but a bit larger.
Guangzhou Motors – Thanks for the bailout of our 30 years of incompetence, corruption & agreed, American Tool Taxpayers!
Now buy our Chinese made Buicks, Chevys, GMCs (Cadillacs, coming soon), and other vehicles assembled in Mexico, Thailand, South Korea & The US using many Chinese made components.
Thanks, suckers!
Signed,
GM Executives & UAW
The American taxpayers were scammed, no ifs, ands or buts.
Yesterday, when I read this in Reuters, my first thoughts were what a big thanks this is to the American taxpayer for the bailout of GM.
Delphi, which was once part of GM, has an even better story of shipping jobs to China – after having its debt written off and dumping retiree pensions on to American taxpayer. The Hedge Fund operatives walked away with cool $12.9 Billion on the spin-off.
They’re really setting themselves up for failure if they think they can slip a Chinese-built Buick into the market unnoticed at the height of political silly season next fall. They’ll be lucky if the whole corp doesn’t go down in the crossfire when the candidates turn this into a presidential election issue.
we can stop this, keep the faith and spread the word!
The way all new car parts are being made in China nowadays, soon ALL cars, no matter where they were manufactured will end up being Chinese anyway. My Corolla has got Chinese tires, struts, CV joints, brake pads and discs, 2 wheel bearings and assorted gaskets and seals.
Exactly
1975 – no way am I buying a car made in Japan
1995 – no way am I buying a car made in Korea
2005 – no way am I buying a car made in Mexico
2015 – no way am I buying a car made in China
Just wait until the Iraq made cars start showing up in 2035.
You forget India and Russia.
I’d straight buy a Lada Niva so Russia is in play!
Give me one of those cool Soviet pseudo-Packards!
Camaro IROC (IRAQ sic).
And I just bought my first vehicle not made in America, a Toyota, made in Japan as a Japanese vehicle should be made. The multiple Korean cars I see broken down every day convinces me that keeping those at bay is a good idea. Granted everything that comes out of Hyn/Kia is coma inducing so it’s not hard to ignore them.
I never lived a time where it was stupid to write a check for a Japanese vehicle, nor have I ever met anyone that had anything bad to say about a Japanese manufacturing.
None of this can be said about the Chinese.
“And I just bought my first vehicle not made in America, a Toyota, made in Japan as a Japanese vehicle should be made.”
Congrats! Soooooo, what did you buy? Inquiring minds want to know……
4Runner of course!
Simple SR5 to run about in, it’s the last non-wrangler midsize SUV, and with the wrangler it’s the only SUV still made that is actually capable of SUV tasks.
Excellent!!! Were I to ever need a 4×4 SUV, that would be my first choice.
Mark Ronchetti, the meteorologist at our Chan 13 TV channel in ABQ and all-around good person, just bought one from a local dealer nearby and he gave them a good write-up/review.
I know what you’re thinking. Why did HDC buy that 2012 Grand Cherokee? It was something my wife wanted — it was love at first sight for her; color, styling, feminine-touch interior, real girlie car. Hey, happy wife, happy life!
But, that marriage has ended. She’s a happy camper now in her 2015 Sequoia.
We gave our 25-yo grand daughter that 2012 Grand Cherokee as a wedding present this past June. I hope it lasts a while longer for her. It has over 85K on the clock now. My Grand Wagoneer of yesteryear had died and been resuscitated several times by 85K on its clock.
We’ve had a really great, problem-free experience with our 2008 Japan-built Highlander. We gave it to our 18-yo grand daughter and I hope it lasts her through college. It has >100K miles on the clock, without any problems so far.
Enjoy!
Very cool, any reason for not jumping up to the Trail? As I recall its only about $1000 more, the rear locker is worth that on its own, the manually shifted transfer case is just gravy. But I don’t care for the silver pseudo skidplate add ons on the bumpers.
Meh, I have more than enough off-road vehicles, this was intended as something to get around in, it has a few options but I just wanted something cheap. So I took something off the lot, which aren’t exactly well stocked in my area… All in it was actually less than the 4Runner starting MSRP despite stickering a little over 38k. I was surprised I was able to get that much off a Toyota, granted they wanted over $1,000 for some stick on clear plastic to protect the paint on the front end…
8 years and 110k on the wife’s Tucson and I have had all of 3 minor issues. Had a recall for the blower motor for an issue I never had. The tie rod ends were frozen and had to be cut off…probably more due to the 4 years in Watertown NY than the car and the battery just died. 8 years and 110k in. Timing belt was done at 60 k and I just did the front rotors. Probably the most trouble free car to grace our fleet. And no rust, though I wouldn’t want to remove any exhaust stuff without a fire hose with penetrating oil.
My grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and fought in the Pacific. He didn’t care for Mitsubishi products in the least.
My 12 year old American made Accord as had all of $100 worth of repairs done in the last decade. Everybody everywhere is a smart competent person IMO.
I’m still on 1995, the first one predates me so m’eh.
Honestly the Chinese situation is different.
The Chinese don’t have the detail-orientation of the Japanese, the “I want to catch up to the damned Japanese” of the Koreans, or the work ethic of the Mexicans. Chinese factories have literally no incentive to produce quality. Foreign companies can only operate through Chinese intermediaries who are closely watched by the govt…their real job is to provide jobs for Chinese workers and skim money for bureaucrats. If they are politically connected, the laws don’t apply to them. If they aren’t their company will disappear overnight if trouble appears.
I have Chinese students here in Japan who tell me straight out not to buy Chinese processed foods…and their families own the factories. They send home Japanese goods every month.
I could tell before I got to your last paragraph that you must have spent some time over there. You hit the nail on the head. Especially with the Koreans – that’s why they’re products are improving so fast. There’s still a ton of animosity towards the Japanese.
The first time I visited Samsung in Seoul, the opening conversation went like this: “We’re Samsung, and we’re now bigger than Sony.”
Not to worry, someone will show their Yankee ingenuity by buying one, taking it apart, reverse engineering every piece, and selling substandard copies on Ebay, with free shipping.
You win the internet.
Per the 12/5 NYT, they’ve sold 120K of these in China over the last 2 years. Most bugs should be worked out by now. I’ll bet the quality will be at least as good as Mexico-assembled vehicles. If demand is high enough, maybe they’ll meet it with US production. It’s got a lot of what I want, but not for $35K+. Might have to settle for the Chevy variant.
I really don’t see any issue with Chinese manufacturing. It’s not as if manufacturing or the auto industry is a new industry. Do we complain about where our commodities like agri or mining come from? Look at oil, look at the countries that trade in oil. They are some of the worst offenders of human rights.
I do believe GM is correct in diversifying it’s manufacturing. Keeping all of your eggs in one basket, ie, the US or even NAFTA will leave your business more exposed.
This will reduce the risk of the US taxpayer bailing out GM in the future.
As for the so called job losses, why doesn’t the US invest in technology and industry that is the future.
Where are the farriers, candlestick makers??? I suppose if they were backed by unions/socialist and even those incredibly shortsighted nationalists TTAC would be looking at what timber is best for a buckboard.
The consumer will benefit, as will the US taxpayer.
The world is fluid. It might not be a bad idea today, but what if in January 2017 President Trump is being sworn in. He has not been keen on China and has made no secret of his desire to impose tarriffs. All of your rhetoric about tarriffs aside, polling at least shows this to be within the realm of possibility.
If Trump gets elected, a Chinese-made Buick will be the least of our problems.
The people who scream most on their Chinese-assembled iPhone about not buying any of that there slanty-eyed crap (my mother’s Taiwanese, so I can say it) seen on their Sceptre TV aren’t in the market for one anyway; they’re too busy trying to spot-weld a gusset onto their aunt’s hand-me-down Windstar’s rotting beam axle. With their Chicago Electric welder. On a Pittsburgh Automotive floor jack.
Lovely Harbor Freight reference!
Take it back – you win the Internet.
Yes, because building a 500 dollar phone and a 35000 dollar car are one in the same. But maybe you are right. If they paint it with that lead based paint they used on kids toys we will get old school paint durability so it’ll at least shine up like that old Electra 225.
It’s all about the oversight. Apple is big enough that they can demand their own inspectors on the factories, and are serious about pulling multi-billion dollar contracts if the factories don’t toe the line. GM isn’t going to do this. Get ready for white metal suspension parts and cardboard brake pads.
The problem isn’t so much assembly as much of it is automated and the automakers train their workers the same, but rather the quality of the components and of the materials (such as steel).
Mot ideal, but it’s not like GM is going to go thru the expense of tooling a plant in the US to produce 30-40k Envisions a yr. when a factory in China already manufacturing it has ample capacity.
Same reason why GM is exporting the Impala to Korea instead of setting up Impala manufacturing there.
Asbestos brake pads FTW
American giants like Neil & Buzz say once you’ve been up there you realize its ONE planet.
They didn’t have to share their lives with much of the rest of it. Their progeny will, such lives as they will have.
Perhaps, but would they have duplicated that trip on a Chinese Knock-off Saturn V and Apollo capsule?
I don’t give a damn if they conducted a study that showed the quality of Chinese-built vehicles surpassed that of the average Lexus LS 460. I will never buy a car either manufactured in China, or by a company with Chinese ownership (talking to you, Volvo). The tired example of “iPhones are made in China too” or that people said the same thing years ago about cars made in Japan or Mexico is a non-starter. I don’t really have a choice where my phone is manufactured (it’s not an iPhone anyway), but I damn sure do have a choice were my car is made.
Well said. This really is a slap in the face to the US taxpayer.
Screw gm.
p.s. I truly hope the “new” caddies lay a turd.
Screw gm
not so much the entire corp, let’s focus on rejecting this particular model.
The clowns in the rest of the corporation brought you this model and they will bring more even if this one flops. There is too much GM/SAIC owned industrialization in China to not take advantage of it.
On another note, I just read that the Japanese have started killing whales again. It’s pretty hard to not buy any Chinese-made products–and, at least for now, I don’t have anything major against the Chinese–but I’ll do my level best to not buy from a country that slaughters highly intelligent mammals. Between that and their mercantilist economy the Japanese are not being good world citizens. There will never be a Japanese car in my garage.
yeah buddy!
Ford screws over Volvo and ends up selling them to Geely (not a government-owned company btw) and you’re going to blame Volvo? Pretty sure they also would have preferred to be totally Swedish too.
This kind of tribalism/college-football-foaming-at-the-mouth patriotism is getting kind of tired in a world with radicalized terrorism. We should leave that junk back in the 20th century.
tremorcontrol – I’m not foaming at the mouth, thanks. And while the “tribalism/college-football-foaming-at-the-mouth patriotism” line is cute, it’s also utter nonsense. It has everything to do with China actively trying to undermine the US economically, technologically, and militarily. I’ve been around the world a bit, having retired recently after 30 years in the Army (in fact I’m typing this in Manila which is where I’ve lived since retiring). Just some perspective so you don’t think I’m some guy who has never strayed far from Mom’s sofa and feels only the ‘Murican way is best. In fact my ex-wife was from the PRC, I’ve been there many times and traveled around the country and I’m quite familiar with the culture (in fact we got married there). Again, just trying to put things in perspective.
Oh, and I’m the proud recipient of a letter from the US Office of Personnel Management, informing me that my records were one of many hacked/stolen by the Chinese government. They have my life history in their hands, including friends and family, right down to my fingerprints. (I held a Top Secret/SCI clearance the majority of my time on active duty…yeah, same level as Hildabeast). So yeah, you bet your ass it’s personal for me.
“…I’m the proud recipient of a letter from the US Office of Personnel Management, informing me that my records were one of many hacked/stolen by the Chinese government.”
Yeah, you and how many millions of other current and former civil service employees, Prime Federal contractors, subcontractors, temps and consultants?
I acknowledged I wasn’t the only one affected…read what you copy/pasted once more.
So because millions of others were also affected, that makes it any less relevant to me personally?
drw1926, the answer to your question is “Yes!”
You put your faith in a government entity who thought itself invincible and didn’t take security seriously.
You chose badly.
Consider that the US has been spying on other countries, friends and foes, since WWII, and now your surprised, nay offended, that other countries are spying on us!?
Dude! Get real! And getta grip. Not everyone out there loves us.
You’re screaming about buying Chinese made goods, but if you love Murica so much, why did do you have an ex wife and current wife made in Asia and yet you retired in Asia? American woman not good enough for you?
I know your type and quite honestly, good riddance. You can stay in Asia where you belong.
You don’t know shite from Shinola, Sparty. And your reading comprehension skills need a serious brush-up as well.
I know your name is Greg and you retired in 2009. Anything else you want me to dig up?
Quit while you’re ahead. My reading comprehension skills, among other skills, are much better than you think.
You also like to travel to the Philippines and probably spend lots of money on snatch that you wouldn’t get for free. :)
I wouldn’t knock the 20th Century – its looking pretty good right now.
True, dat.
“I wouldn’t knock the 20th Century – its looking pretty good right now.”
Your iron lung is ready, Sir.
Ah but the 20th Century cured polio.
Rows of iron lungs filled hospital wards at the height of the polio outbreaks of the 1940s and 1950s, assisting the breathing of children and adults (mostly children) with bulbar polio and bulbospinal polio. A polio patient with paralyzed lungs could spend up to a week inside an iron lung.[23]
Polio vaccination programs have virtually eradicated new cases of poliomyelitis in the United States. Because of this, and the development of modern ventilators, and widespread use of tracheal intubation and tracheotomy, the iron lung has mostly disappeared from modern medicine. In 1959, there were 1,200 people using tank respirators in the United States, but by 2004 there were only 39. By 2014, there were only 10 people left with an iron lung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_lung
Oh, OK. People born before 1950 don’t count.
When better cars are built, Buick will import them from China……
To,paraphrase an old Buick ad slogan.
When Better Buicks are sold, they will be built by Americans for Americans!
And when crappier cars are built Buick will apparently import those from China too.
True story…….I’m thinking 2006 -2007 era . I was shipper receiver Oshawa Stamping. As sometimes happens in the stamping world , we smashed the Draw die , for the W Buick . The “draw” is the first die in the set of progressive dies. The draw forms the part. Anyway as I recall the draw had to shipped to the US , and we had no back up in North America. So we’re looking at shutting the assembly line down for 3- 4 days
China had a workable die set . So management opted to have the Chinese ship us Buick roofs . With the assembly line also running Pontiac W in the mix, we needed at least 700 roofs to be premium shipped.
So we came in on the weekend , myself a lift truck driver , and three of our best metal finishers . Our job was to recieve and metal finish the Chinese roof panels . An expediter brought them in from the Toronto airport. As soon as we had them on the floor, the metal finish guys set to work.
The roofs came in on wooden pallets , stacked with precision , and each panel separated with sheets of wax paper. The resident metallurgist went over them, we stoned them, we checked the specs.. Perfect , not an upding or a down ding. No die marks, and an even coating of machine oil, on every panel. The crew went through every panel , and stacked them on our racks, ready for production. We never took a file or an oscilator to any of them.
My opinion on Chinese , quality control , was greatly changed that day
Thank you for the insight. I used to work as a mechanic, manufacturing and design and now I work as a Service Advisor for VW. So hearing about the gritty details of vehicle manufacturing interests me. I don’t see many day-to-day stories from the line.
The cognitive dissonance is massive with Mikey.
I point out how dreadful and overpriced most GM vehicles are, and his response is to let loose the cries of a thousands of Ontario CAW GM workers in protest, yet here he is defending the QC of Chinese imports based on a single alleged anecdote, which, if true, only strengthens the case to minimize North American production of components going into GM vehicles or assembly of those vehicles.
And to trade anecdotes, I personally know a skilled CNC supervisor at FCA’s Sterling Assembly plant who has told me they have to spot fix (to bring into spec) > 20% of the Chinese components their plant receives.
If true….? Alleged ?………Dude , I thought that maybe I could just add a little input to this tread . You or anybody else can draw your own conclusions.
I have , with my limited literary skills posted hundreds, of comments at TTAC. Going back to the early Farago days , with Robert F sending me Emails with his finger poised over the “ban” button.
Never once in those comments , have I ever so much as distorted the truth.
DW, It’s Not All About You.
He didn’t mention your handle in his comment, which was not in response to you, or any other comment.
Chinese components farmed out to suppliers (some of which are dubious) is different from major components/body parts made by an automaker’s factory in China.
As we have seen, there are crappy suppliers everywhere (but more so in China).
DW,
This is so disappointing, coming from you. The only thing you’re consistent about is your 1 population sized good experience with a mid ‘oughts Honda, your bitterness and tired quotation of a Consumers Union publication about statistics.
You’ve sadly become the definition of a troll. I used to value your posts right up until this. This is like when the Fonze jumped the shark.
Mikey has contributed insight into this website time and time again. If you draw his ire, it’s likely because you’re a f*cking @sshole and need to STFU.
I will man up and admit that I was wrong to address Mikey that way.
My sincere apologies, mikey.
FWIW, I was not (or did not intend to) calling/(call) you a liar – I was merely offering a contrary experience from someone whom I know for a fact is a highly skilled machinist & CNC operator @ FCA Sterling Assembly (home of the Chrysler 200 and I think one other vehicle), and I was also pointing out what seemed to be some irony in your at least intimating support (or at least not repulsion) at Chinese sourced GM Canada components.
Again, that’s my 3rd ad hominem launched in over 7 years at TTAC, but there’s no excusing it.
On a more personal note, I also hope that your current struggles smooth out, and your Holidays are good, and that your 2016 goes much better.
Apology accepted ……..We’re good : ))
FCA has to spot fix components on the 200 because they build it with garbage. They either don’t have a handle on their suppliers, or more likely, don’t care.
Chinese manufacturers are certainly capable of producing high-quality goods when they want to. You saw the good roofs but didn’t see how many rejects were thrown in the metal shredder, and didn’t see how much supervision and money (legitimate and otherwise) may have been required to ensure that only the best roofs were packaged and shipped out.
The biggest hurdle for China is that several generations have grown up in a culture that prioritizes “not causing trouble” and doing the minimum to get by, because extra effort was not rewarded.
Mikey,
Unfortunately, I have had the opposite experience. My experience is with tooling. Ever since 2008, tool shops for die sets are literally extinct in North America. We are now dealing with Chinese and Turkish shops and it is a nightmare.
The tool makers are following the path of globalization. They will soon get to the proficiency of what North America once had, but I fear that tribal knowledge of mass production tool shops for sheet metal fabrication is gone forever on our continent.
Let’s hope we won’t need it else we’d have to rely on the Far East for production in the event of a national emergency… or war.
These will sell in ridiculous quantities and at sticker price for the first several months of importation.
wanna bet bro?
Agreed – won’t be able to move the iron from China fast enough – guessing starting MSRP between $31 and $33K – probably lower end. Just overlapping a loaded Encore and close to the difference between the 2 CUV choices that exist today.
The detractors said the Encore would never sell – continues to grow and created a whole new category.
Stupid is as stupid does, last I checked Americans on the whole aren’t too exceptional these days.
True, 28, and no better proof exists than the whole CUV craze.
Me:
I like a vehicle that has good snow clearance, is easy to enter without cracking my head and that gives me better visibility in traffic.
TTAC:
YUR STOOPID!
On visibility, here’s a tid bit you may or may not enjoy. Just this morning about 10:50 AM I was coming down a main road on the way to church and on this road there is a quick alley you can jet down (the alley runs parallel the main road for three blocks) before a light which at the time was in the process of going from yellow to red. This intersection is important because it takes you to a second main road which eventually leads into a tunnel. The reason you would use the alley off of the first main road is to beat the light because at the end of this two way alley is another intersection to the second main road. On approaching the alley in my Saturn SL I put my left turn signal on and observed an MY01-05ish Toyota RAV4 being driven by someone with large dark sunglasses (couldn’t tell male or female) coming out of the alley in the opposite direction. Right as I started to turn this driver looked left to right and started to go. I stopped 1/3rd into the turn and this driver stopped right after they drifted forward and saw me. Once I saw the RAV4 driver stop I continued to turn into the alley and this driver in my rear view put his/her signal on to turn left (to hit the intersection I was skipping) so we were both turning the opposite of each other. Now I always hear about visibility from these things and yet here was an instance where unnatural height worked against the driver because my Saturn is literally a few inches off of the ground, not nearly as high as the driver’s line of sight. I probably seemed to come out of nowhere to the driver and of course I am happy they did see me eventually but the head turn then followed by drifting and then a stop was eye opening. A normal vehicle at a natural driving height might have made me more obvious as I turned. Maybe. Don’t know. Not to make too bad of a pun here, but today I witnessed a ride height fail. I know when I have driven Jeeps in the family I have found it difficult to judge the distance I have between small cars on the road.
I didn’t read your comment because it’s denser than the crap I have to try to see around in a modern car.
Paragraphs are great. And free!
Fair point.
RideHeight, you’re talking about a logical reason to buy a CUV.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that about 90% of CUV buyers could care less about that reason and are willing to spend a LOT more on one of these rigs so they can just look butch, or trendy, or both.
I mean, Mazda’s new CX3 is a glorified Mazda2 – a freakin’ $18000 subcompact – and I was seeing them on the lot for $25-30000. Are buyers taking these home because of the visibility? Nope. They’re taking them home because they think these cars are cool. And they’re willing to pay thousands more (plus the extra interest on the financing) to get them.
Webster’s definition of dumb, if you ask me. But, it’s their money, I suppose.
GM is a corrupt organization:
Red Ink Rick, Board of Bystanders, subservient and compliant Mark LaNaive and sidekick Bent Over, Mr Ebonics and his wasted Billions, all parading as followup to the practice round Delphi…a Bankster Rinse thru BK and eventual reclaiming by Goldman et al. what a racket! it’s expensive maintaining those Hampton HUDS. now the next chapter of Corruption & Ineptitude at The General, led by UnBarrable Mary, another inept soul seller.
Buick is an American Brand. this they don’t care about but I do. keep your Commie, human rights abusing cars. let women know that they are only allowed so many kids by this autocratic government Barra is partnering with. want to build and sell there? go ahead, but keep those currency manipulating, polluting, slave wage paying partnerships off my shores.
GM sells less than 3000 units annually in Japan because they, as a people, refuse to purchase other than domestic. Americans meanwhile have given away production of textiles, apparel, electronics, etc. let’s be smart for once and realize it’s not tariffs that control the market as much as common sense. let’s effectively ban this Buick pretender and send a message to General Motors… Keep Your Commie Car!
STOP THE INVASION, BOYCOTT ENVISION!
Dude, take your meds. Sanity is within reach. Take your meds.
I am a man of action and an American who cares about the future of of country and children, what’s your deal dude?
Buickman,
I do believe you really care about your country.
But, get an education on how the globe functions.
After reading your comment you appear quite insular and insecure, lacking little faith in the US’es ability to manage itself.
Imagine the cost of living in the US if every item you purchase was built in the US?
You would have the same standard of living as the Chinese, who basically buy Chinese made products, like we do.
Wow, why not have someone else do your heavy lifting and profit from it.
How many Buicks are sold in China each year??
Some of the profits do make it’s way back to the US to pay for your social security, etc.
that “giant sucking sound” hit Flint worse than anywhere. I understand international finance and globalism. and I’ve had enough. this is where I draw the line dude.
https://www.quora.com/Is-China-a-communist-country
The irony is that China might be a better place for capitalism than the US. Lack of regulations is one big thing that’s helped it surge over the past decade or so.
“Lack of regulations is one big thing that’s helped it surge over the past decade or so.”
Actually, I’d say in many ways they’re FAR more regulated than we are…to wit, CEOs whose companies are found guilty of fraud or negligence causing death can get the death penalty. I’d say that’s the ultimate regulation.
I have a feeling the head of BP is sure glad that oil rig explosion was here, not in China – otherwise his last ride would have been in one of China’s mobile execution vans.
Still waiting for that 6 year old prediction of GM market share of less than 15%.
Your posts have grown old.
don’t confuse old with consistent my friend.
All by design, Buickman and its too late in any event as it already happened. Those so stood against it were marginalized or eliminated either quietly or in accidents.
I am the leading Buick salesperson in history but I will not sell this machine. I will do everything within my power to denigrate and eliminate any potential sale. please join me in speaking out against this misguided effort to weaken our country and it’s production capacity and supply demand for units built by our fellow Americans.
@ Buickman………I’m with you 100 percent…..But don’t you think “that train has already left the station”. .?
it’s up to those of us who care to do something rather than relying on the past or others. Merry Christmas Mikey!
Also with you. I did notice that Buick Envision won’t be featured at next month’s N.A.I.A.S. in Detroit.
if it is there I will be curbside trashing this piece of crap/
What would you do with used ones in a few years?
I love my old 1995 LeSabre, and would consider replacing it with a newer Buick. I wouldn’t buy this one new, but used in a few years if it turns out to be reliable….
That could be interesting.
everyone I know and talk to will get the straight story, new or used. this bag of bolts will fail or I’m not Buickman!
How many Mexican, Canadian and European-assembled Buicks have you sold in total? Rough numbers are fine.
prolly a thousand. monthly I discourage buyers from taking Encores but haven’t made a stand until now.
I’m an American!
Was it really necessary to make a third top-level comment just to say this?
“Take four red capsules. In 10 minutes, take two more. Help is on the way.”
Yes.
Buickman has understandably had enough.
GM was bailed out by way of massive, involuntary appropriation of taxpayer dollars recently and has $100,000 line workers along with an 18 million USD per annum.
If these were Chinese made unreported to the U.S. Harleys or Levi Jeans it would be less objectionable since neither of those iconic American Brands has received a taxpayer-forced bailout.
Well to be fair, Harley Davidson would no longer be here were it not for the massive tarriff on large displacement imported bikes in the 80’s. But at least they took advantage and fixed themselves to the point they now compete without the tarriffs. Not liking this move by GM.
And that bailout saved the US auto industry and prevented what was a Great Recession to turn into another Depression.
And if you really want to rant and rave – you should direct it at Wall St., the big mortgage lenders and the hedge funds which tanked the economy which finally brought GM and Chrysler down to their knees (esp. when they couldn’t get loans to keep them afloat until the auto market recovered due to the credit markets being frozen).
Also, the big GM shareholders holding GM “hostage” and forcing GM into stock buybacks to the tune of billions didn’t help (that rainy day fund could have kept GM afloat).
Now, not saying that GM and Chrysler (or even Ford) weren’t poorly managed, but w/o he Great Recession, a govt. bail-out would not have been necessary.
Harley Davidson had made more money selling Chinese-made, Harley-branded merchandise than they ever made on bikes – the “Lifestyle” has exceeded the “Legend”.
A few years back, a biker friend of mine (Harley, through and through) was proudly showing off a new $300 pair of HD riding boots – I asked him to take one off to look at the tag inside: Made In China.
Check the “official” site, and type in the search term “made in USA” – you’ll get a few products with the “USA” logo – type “imported” into the search; no results.
At least most clothing sites (Land’s End, Columbia, etc.) will have “Imported” in their product description; not so for HD.
Dirty Little Secret, indeed.
So fncking what!
It is a mid-size CUV powered by a turbo-4 so I’m not interested in owning one no matter where it is built.
I don’t care if it’s a V8 getting 50 MPG. this is my country to protect and defend regardless of what these pinheads promote.
“I don’t care if it’s a V8 getting 50 MPG. this is my country to protect and defend regardless of what these pinheads promote.”
-Sent from Buickman’s Chinese made computer.
Once he’s back on his meds, someone should remind Buickman that his beloved brand is a Chinese brand. Chins is where most Buicks are made;
China is where most Buicks are sold. And China is the market that allowed GM to stay in business.
I know Buickman wants to ENSURE the continued success of the brand on which he DEPENDS, but this nonsense is just silly.
If it weren’t for China, we’d be looking at GM being “Chevrolet-GMC-Pontiac-Cadillac” today.
“If it weren’t for China…”
Who cares? We get along just fine without Mercury and Plymouth, don’t we? I’m sure Mercuryman and Plymouthman are alive and doing well. Probably better than before!
Spartan and VoGo,
One thing Buickman and many others should realise, as the Chinese become more affluent, like the Japanese and Koreans they will influence vehicle design, like the Japanese and Koreans.
People like Buickman are like the atypical Frenchman. Viva la France ……. or maybe Viva la USA.
What appears to be arrogance is actually fear and insecurity.
Fear and insecurity, which is driven by not by lacking faith. This is driven by a lack of education. Both the far left and right have this problem.
BAfO,
You really nailed it with that post – explaining Buickgeezer’s fears, America’s love affair with selling machine guns to the insane, and the rise of Trump and Cruz in a couple of sentences.
I had a large input into Buick’s Chinese development, beyond what you might imagine.
if GM understood marketing Buick would again be selling a million domestic units.
The only surprising nugget from this post was that the Enclave starts just a hair under $40K (with cloth). It’s $45K with leather. Holy crap! How? It’s not even close to a good looking car. Buick as a brand in the US has no more value than Ford or Dodge, probably even less than both to most people under 60. Who is paying Explorer Sport or Durango RT AWD money for these things?
The Enclave is an aged model and the next one should get a fairly significant price bump.
Also, the much newer Acura MDX only starts at $42.8k.
Folks, the reason the Envision is being assembled in China is that it’s not going to sell in large numbers here. GM estimates maybe 30K sales per year, which is not a large enough number to warrant the construction of a new stateside factory or the disruption and retooling of an existing one. It will sell in far larger numbers in China, for whom the car was probably designed in the first place. So it makes sense to put the factory there and export the cars here as an afterthought market. All of this b*tching and moaning about circumventing American labor and cheating U.S. citizens of their tax dollars is of secondary concern.
Traditionally, Chinese-market Buicks are assembled in duplicate factories in China. One example is the Enclave. This time, however, the Chinese factory is just going to be the main factory churning out this car.
Excellent points well said. It’s not like the Big 3 have moved pickup production to the Middle Kingdom.
I’m not seeing INVASION here, just a few ex-pats.
you are missing the point. this model is only the beginning of what will be an onslaught, rendering more decimation across our land.
Correct. On another front robotics advancements will soon render a whole other group of useless eaters unemployed. So get ready for current skilled labor unemployment + current unskilled labor unemployment + useless foreigners imported. Gasp! Its almost as if they *want* to crash the nation? Naw, couldn’t be.
Buickman makes me feel like someone who managed to get into one of the Titanic’s lifeboats being exhorted to row back and help save the ship.
But then I see he’s in an even less crowded lifeboat than mine.
RideHeight, Buickman=Jim Dollinger. If you don’t know who that is, I recommend you Google or DuckDuckGo his name or visit LinkedIn (if you have access).
There’s a reason why Buickman writes what he writes, and it is based on decades-long experience.
Yeah, I know; Ive read his stuff and watched his videos. He made a bundle in and is stuck in the past of an upwardly mobile America.
But today he’s as irrelevant as a dedicated public educator from the same age group.
C’mon now. I understand that things change. But the more things change, the more they stay the same.
If you’re “in the game” like many on this board are/were/aspire to be, then many of the same principles from way back then, still apply today. The name of the game is “selling.”
So I would disagree with your evaluation. This guy was an icon of his day, has the track record to prove it, and the life experience that most others lack.
What you’re saying is like that Bob Lutz is irrelevant today. Hell, we wouldn’t be where we are today if not for Bob Lutz, his triumphs and his disappointments.
Ms Barra is paid to make unpopular decisions, rife with criticism from those who think they could do it better, but who are not in her position.
I, too, think, that importing from China is a lot more profitable for GM, and without the UAW hassles, but I can well understand that people like Buickman will be strenuously opposed to it.
Different life experiences. Different interpretations of the same “facts”.
Ultimately, the buying customer decides what flies and what dies.
“But the more things change, the more they stay the same.”
The scaling destructiveness of population density, the proliferation of highly lethal weapons (big & little) and the global freedom of capital are new things that invalidate that bromide.
Human nature may not change, but that nature is explosive under pressure which until some significant die-back will only continue rising.
Locally, that means kids can’t learn because they’re busy fighting, f*cking and falling prey to each other as well as to sickened adults who themselves are victims of lost jobs, shattered family structure and politically engineered dependency.
Serially unemployed “families” of 350 lb. illiterate substance abusers with STDs and a numbed familiarity with gunshot wounds are probably not going to support the Great Buick Resurgence of Tomorrowland.
RideHeight, I understand your sentiment but that is the nature of the New America.
This is what the majority wanted. This is what the majority voted for and will continue to vote for.
The future belongs to the young. It is up to them to shape what America will be like in the future.
Those of us who do not agree, or who will not adapt, simply detach themselves through any form most comfortable and appealing to them.
Some move out of the country permanently; others spend time on endless vacations aka nomads; and yet others bunker themselves in place and reside in communities of the like-minded.
So I have noticed three factions in America today: those of the working class who do all the work and pay the taxes; those who live off the toils and taxes of others; and those who have at least some modicum of personal wealth who spend it prudently and selectively while contributing nothing to America’s Treasury.
But when it comes to corporate money….. ahhh, yes, corporate money, building them cheaper elsewhere and selling them for more profit in America, is definitely going to be the wave of the future. TPP anyone? Look at what NAFTA did for America.
And doing this without the influence of the UAW? Priceless!
Um, GM exports the Impala to the Korean market where it has been doing very well.
GM can’t replicate tooling for every model for every market – would be a total waste and a $$ loser.
Now, not wanting to buy a Chinese-made car is entirely your choice.
Both the Equinox and Terrain models will need an update soon.
GM could have just brought this platform over to the Spring Hill Plant and begun phasing out their Theta platform CUV’s.
The numbers given by GM for Buick alone would be significantly more than 30k a year – if you also build Chevrolet and GMC variants in the same plant.
Second, take a look at the demographic of who buys a Buick in this country. A large percentage of them are going to be turned off by the Made in China label.
When shopping for a truck this year, I wasn’t interested in one assembled in Mexico. The Made in China label would have been a total non-starter.
If I’m buying a big ticket item, I prefer that the final assembly be done here, by American workers that pay into income tax, Medicare and Social Security.
I wonder what is Buick’s name for that color.
Mine is Champagne Poo. Or maybe Pu?
For me, it’s entirely basic: I would not believe the metallurgy in Chinese autos. Here in Victoria, B.C., we’re amidst a disaster with development of another scaffold. The city picked the most minimal bidder for the steel pillars and auxiliary components, and that was a Chinese supplier. We’ve now had various postponements because of substandard steel and notwithstanding when the temporary worker attempted to all the more nearly screen quality control’s, regardless it happening. Financial plan invades and timetable deferrals. It appears I heard the same thing occurrence on the new compasses of the Oakland Bay Bridge in San Francisco.
Cheers,
Zira
Buying a car requires trust bordering on faith. I don’t trust Chinese metallurgy and I have little faith in Chinese QA.
Besides, what’s wrong with offshoring a few more American jobs, right? If they haven’t offshored your job yet it’s because they haven’t gotten around to it.
callmeishmael,
I really do think GM is involved in the metallurgy. GM is an American company, right?
How can the Chinese determine what metals are used in this Buick???
Hmmm…………..
It’s refreshing to remember that the Envision’s success or failure will be entirely determined by people who would never visit this or any similar website.
If it’s comfy it will sell.
Regardless of what I think or anyone on here, GM knows GM buyers are too stupid to care where their cars are made or the GM bailout, or anything along those lines.
Fleet buyers especially don’t care.
Everyday I spot a few Hecho en Mexico, brodozer Silverado and Sierra crew cabs with the huge vinyl sticker on the back window, “Made in the USA”.
My wife has the Chinese made Fit, bought new about 2 years ago (we are in Canada). At the time of purchase it was a big decision whether to go with the Chinese Fit, wait for the next model produced in the brand new Mexican factory, or buy used. After trying unsuccessfully to buy used (desirable models in good condition went fast at any price), we couldon’t wait and bought the Chinese made Fit.
The car hasn’t had any problems and the quality is what you’d expect from a Honda at that price, which is to say higher than most in the entry-level segment. In hindsight I’m glad we didn’t get a first run model from a new factory, those seemed to have some issues.
Although I’m still not keen on buying a Chinese made car, based on this experience I can’t fault anything in the product. Many parts and subassemblies already come from there regardless of where a vehicle is assembled right? As long as quality control is good, it should be fine.
Honda and GM come from opposite ends of the credibility scale.
Kablamo,
You are correct, most places are assembly points.
As an example, the US has increased vehicle production significantly over the past few years. But yet, the increase in people employed in the industry has risen marginally.
This is due to the imported vehicle components mainly from Mexico and China.
Is a Chinese worker any less capable than a US worker in assembling a motor vehicle?
It’s like a Hyundai Sante Fe, only built in China and sold by the kind of dealers that make other shysters in the business feel unfairly judged. As long as people whose lips move when they read can get jobs for checking a box or two, there will be a market for GM cars.
Smaller than a Santa Fe. More like a Tucson.
Smaller only by an inch or so, and a longer WB than the Santa Fe Sport. Not as wide or as tall, though. A longer WB than any other compact CUV I can think of (Lincoln MKC at 106″?), but not long enough to be a true mid-size like the 112″ of the Edge or Equinox/Terrain, or even the 111″ (rounded) of the Pilot or 110″ of the Highlander. The Envision is an odd size–that may help it fit nicely between the subcompact Encore and full-size Enclave.
Made in China but sold at premium prices. Good luck with that GM. They probably are all-in at $9-10k built. With year end sales they can discount it down to $20k with mfr cash and still make huge profit. LMAO
In my family there were elderly gentlemen who COULD readily afford a Cadillac but bought a Buick instead. Sadly they are either deceased or not driving their American Barges. Their children and grandchildren like the Encore and have bought one or two. This vehicle will be marketed to those youngsters.
Will people chill out. For the amount of hatred for Theta here you’d think they were stacked 180 days deep on Chevy and GMC lots. GM has no problem selling the Theta vehicles at Chevy and GMC – the SRX is woefully out of date at this point and sales show it.
GM doesn’t have the capacity to tool a new line (the Envision is not Theta) and add capacity for this. My prediction, Chinese source is temporary until Theta winds down (as late as 2018) and then production moves to the US.
Contrary to the predictions from the same folks that said Encore wouldn’t sell, and Verano wouldn’t sell, and can’t understand with a starting price of almost $40K they sell one Enclave – this will sell. They won’t be able to bring them in fast enough, and they’ll sell for sticker.
No higher than 30 day inventory turn first 6 to 9 months, and more than likely under 20 days. Buyers don’t care about 4-cylinder turbo under the hoods, cripes Lexus is doing it at this point, Audi has done it forever, Acura will take the plunge, Mercedes is doing it, BMW does it, Cadillac does it (interestingly Hyundai on the Genesis platform doesn’t it anymore but did). They are also rolling with AWD right out of the gate, which buyers eat up like candy.
If the SRX replacement in 2018 will have a possible sticker price starting at $35K – there is no way this has a starting sticker of $35K.
the Equinox starts at $23K. The Terrain starts at $34K. A Terrain Denali starts at $34K. The starting price will likely be between the Terrain and the Terrain Denali – likely on the higher end – $31Kish – peak out right around $40K – which is about where a cloth seat Enclave starts.
Acura did with the RDX and the switched back to a V6 in said model.
Terrain starts at $24K – Terrain Denali $34K – typo above
The SRX replacement is next year, 2016. It’s going to built in Spring Hill.
if we don’t do something about this, who will? God Bless America, land that I love.
I am really sick and tired of all of our jobs are going overseas. We have a labor problem here in the United States. We need to create and KEEP jobs in the United States. We need to boycott these foreign vehicles! Keep American jobs!
http://www.carshippingcarriers.com
“I am really sick and tired of all of our jobs are going overseas. ”
We have priced ourselves out of the competition. Others overseas can do the same work better and cheaper.
Holy crap, it’s like I stepped out of the DeLorean straight into 1985!
Interesting how almost any TTAC Buick article draws >100 posts. Now, aside from the anti GM bailout/Chinese crap reactions, wouldn’t it be nice to hear about how the 127,000 Chinese owners of this baby have fared with it? Given Buick’s high status there I’ll bet they’re pretty critical of any flaws. Just asking.