As you’re probably aware, this week began with rumblings that several Chinese automakers, some of them state-owned, are taking an interest in Fiat Chrysler Automobiles. Not entirely surprising, as we all know FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne’s spent the past year or so positioning his company for a potential takeover. Slashing debt, consolidating its operations, all to look pretty for that potential mate.
Sure, General Motors and Volkswagen rebuffed the company’s awkward advances, but there’s plenty of fish in the sea for a company with an urge to merge. However, with cash-flush Chinese manufacturers, buyouts are more likely than partnerships.
If it comes to pass, it might not be a bad thing for the volatile American automaker. China’s Zhejiang Geely Holding Group Co., owner of Volvo Cars, did great things for the Swedish brand, overcoming its financial issues while affording the automaker a hands-off approach. Is Volvo making great cars again? Is it on solid footing?
All signs point to “yes.”
Do people still view the brand as a Swedish entity? Yes, just as they do for Jaguar and Land Rover and Mini and Rolls-Royce’s Britishness, despite its owners residing across the English Channel. In the case of Jaguar, well beyond the white cliffs of Dover.
Fiat Chrysler isn’t exactly new to foreign partnerships. Anyone interested in a Dodge Colt? Plymouth Cricket or Sapporo, perhaps? How about a Renault-engineered Eagle Premier or Medallion? How about something from the DaimlerChrysler era? How about a model from today — a Jeep with Fiat underpinnings?
If ever there was a Detroit Three Automaker willing to attract offers from China, it’s Chrysler. Arguably, using Volvo’s story as a guide, Chinese ownership could be a good thing for FCA. Ram 1500s and Jeep Wranglers will still roll out of U.S. assembly plants, the Pentastar sign won’t disappear from Auburn Hills, Michigan, but the company’s global reach would expand greatly. Chinese customers want American products, SUVs especially, and partnerships are already a must for any domestic automaker looking to manufacture vehicles in China. Just ask Ford and GM.
The question today is: would Chinese ownership taint the company and its brands, or has globalization reached a point where no one pays attention to the company behind the curtain, as long as the product remains desirable?
We live in a land of German-owned Rollers and Indian-owned Jags. Does it matter one iota who owns the company selling you a Jeep?
There is not a chance I’d ever buy a car made in China. iPhone? Sure!! But a car is something that I bet my life on every time I get into it, and I don’t trust half-assed Chinese manufacturing to build me something that will do that.
If my iPhone fails? No problem – I put the fire out, then go to the Apple store.
Would you buy a car assembled in not-China but with safety critical parts manufactured in China?
Not if I was aware of it, no… I’d prefer not to, although I’m a tiny bit more comfortable knowing it was at least checked by someone externally… I know where you’re going with this… ;)
I drive a super old car though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI
DW, I’ve never seen that before, it is brilliant.
Also, I posted on this topic in the previous thread, but here I’ll repeat simply: if FCA is bought by the Chinese it will prosper in short term, although long term you will see Chinese made Chrysler/Jeeps, just like with Volvo. They’ll boil the lobster slowly for about 10 years or so to calm the hysteria.
It’s long past time we made our automotive trading policy with China reciprocal. They charge 35% tariff on imports of US made cars, we charge them 2.5%. If Jeep does become Chinese, that’s the perfect political flamethrower to get this topic on the minds of Americans and Congress, and level the tariff. At least this will either stop the influx or help actual American made car exports (Tesla and US-made BMW’s and Benzes).
NN,
Um, I do believe pickups and other commercials attract a 25% import tax into the US from China.
OK, China can keep a 25% tariff on light trucks imported from the US. The rest should be negotiated, including foreign ownership percentages.
this is true for pickups (chicken tax) although not SUV’s. What I’m saying is we match China’s 35% on all vehicles unless they come down–for China only. It’s not that raising tariffs is a good idea, it’s only reciprocating in the hopes they decide to drop their tariff
“There is not a chance I’d ever buy a car made in China.”
I remember hearing this when I was young, but it was Japan instead. In ten years the Chinese will be heavily in the market, underselling everyone else. In twenty years they will be leading the market. In another twenty years India (or someone else) will take their place.
No way. I will never drive Chinese car. I don’t even consider buying Japanese car made in Mexico. But for China… This is special. These are commies. At least, Russian commies made some great military gear, sturdy and reliable. China produces junk. I am very political on this. No Chinese, no Mexican, French, or German.
So, how was Charlottesville?
Are you claiming that slavuta is being racist against French and German manufactured goods? Is it possible to be racist against an object?
“Is it possible to be racist against an object?”
No, but it is possible to be bigoted against a group.
There’s a whole host of really good reasons not to like Chinese goods: from the inconsistent environmental practices to human rights abuses to anticompetitive trade practices.
There’s also good, solid economic reasons to buy local (and by “local” that means “within or close to your community/state/province”).
“Because they’re commies, but not Russian commies” doesn’t pass the muster and frankly sullies the argument—especially because I’ve been in a Lada Niva—nor does “because I’m political” unless you can qualify what “political” means.
I’m pretty sure those carry inanimate object privilege and therefore must be wiped out.
For the children.
“So, how was Charlottesville?”
So, how was the race card festival?
“So, how was the race card festival?”
Really? Putting aside that the article begged this exact question, I think it’s entirely fair game to call him out.
No one is saying the Chinese are “racially” predisposed to making poor quality junk. I can sit here and lament German lease fodder all day long or slag FCA, or poke fun at horrible Russian cars, but for some reason you honed in on racism only here? What gives dude? What happened to equal opportunity race card pulling?
“No one is saying the Chinese are “racially” predisposed to making poor quality junk”
Again: Really? Because that seems to be _exactly_ what slavuta is saying. He’s also chimed in about Mexicans doing the same.
“I can sit here and lament German lease fodder all day long or slag FCA, or poke fun at horrible Russian cars,”
Because you’re not saying their horrible cars because they’re German or Russian, but because they’re bad. That’s generally fair.
There’s a big difference between “The Russian-made Lada Niva* is an unmitigated piece of crap that’s only owned by masochists, hipsters and masochist hipsters” and choice quotes like these:
“They (the Chinese) are the people that have never seen a product that can’t be made a little cheaper, quality be damned”
“But I doubt that in Mexican culture you can find right work ethics. They work hard but I just know culture too well. The tooling calibration there may be lacking, the “mechanical” thinking may be lacking”
One is talking about the product, the other is, well, bigotry.
* Disclosure: I owned a Niva.
You Trump haters will be miserable for the next eight years just like the Obama haters were the last eight years-have fun.
Not if the Angry Cheeto keeps having news conferences like he did yesterday…
My Mexican made Nissan is objectively a better built car (not a better engineered car, not the same thing) than my German made BMW.
The Nissan has had fewer annoying little trim pieces breaking and electronic googaws malfunctioning. And most importantly, it has been more mechanically reliable, with no major component failures in what is now almost 8 years of daily driving. My BMW had 10 times as many minor annoyances and one major breakdown in 5 years.
I will also not purchase a Chinese made car, as China has a “that’s good enough” manufacturing culture that is sloppy and encourages corner cutting and lax enforcement of codes and consumer protection laws. New buildings in China are built to have a 3 decade lifespan – unthinkable in Europe and North America. https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/07/why-earthquakes-in-china-are-so-damaging/278092/
The lack of component failures on your Nissan is largely attributed to the design/engineering of the components and the assembly process, not the skill of the worker on the assembly line.
Modern automotive assembly lines are designed to take out as much human variation as possible.
I have nothing against Mexico or Mexicans. My protest against Mexican products is protest against NAFTA and against American manufacturers moving there. For all other manufacturers, I will only look at quality. But I doubt that in Mexican culture you can find right work ethics. They work hard but I just know culture too well. The tooling calibration there may be lacking, the “mechanical” thinking may be lacking.
“But I doubt that in Mexican culture you can find right work ethics”
Wow, I can’t hear that whistle.
Yes, can you imagine that? – every little region of the world has its culture, its customs, its principals, its pros and cons. do you know 10 Montenegrin principals?
1. Man is born tired and lives to get a rest.
2. Love thy bed as you love thyself.
3. Rest during the day, so you can sleep at night.
4. Do not work – work kills.
5. If you see someone resting, help him out.
6. Work as little as you can, and convey all the work you can to another.
7. In shade is salvation – nobody died from resting.
8. Work earns illness – do not pass away young.
9. If you have an urge to work, sit down, wait and you’ll see it will pass.
10. When you see people eat and drink, approach them. When you see them work, withdraw yourself not to trouble them.
Do I want my car to be built in Montenegro? – NO
““that’s good enough” manufacturing culture that is sloppy and encourages corner cutting”
Sounds like a perfect partner for Chrysler vehicles then :p
The PRC is more like fascists these days.
For many other products, it’s hard to avoid the “Made in China” label, but much easier to do for autos.
Unlike countries like Germany and India, the PRC is not a democratic country, but a totalitarian state and the biggest threat to the US.
Would never buy an auto made in China or built by an auto-maker that is from China or owned by the Chinese (Taiwan is a different matter).
The Chinese aren’t the Germans. They aren’t even the Indians. They are the people that have never seen a product that can’t be made a little cheaper, quality be damned.
They are also communists. I oppose everything they stand for. They can force their coffee makers and disposable electronics on me, but I have a choice when it comes to my automobile.
I also expect that the Chinese owners of FCA would also say that Jeep is not Volvo, and we don’t have to be as quality conscious when dealing with a “down market” brand.
You also have a choice when it comes to your coffee maker.
“The Chinese aren’t the Germans. They aren’t even the Indians. They are the people that have never seen a product that can’t be made a little cheaper, quality be damned”
And that’s different from engineering everywhere else how? I think, at this point, we can accept that Chinese companies can design and build products that are just as good as any others, assuming they have the funding to do so. Just like Taiwan, Korea and Japan before them and Vietnam, Thailand and Bangladesh will follow.
But yes, I do agree: if the product isn’t good, you shouldn’t buy it. But it should be judged on it’s quantifiable properties, not “because I don’t like where it came from”. That’s an ugly slippery slope.
“They are also communists. I oppose everything they stand for. ”
At this point in history, they’re Communists In Name Only. They don’t even stand for what they stand for. Had you said “they’re authoritarian jackboots, and I oppose what they stand for”, I’d have agreed with you.
“They can force their coffee makers and disposable electronics on me, but I have a choice when it comes to my automobile.”
You have a choice with electronics and appliances, too, but apparently principles are negotiable.
Here is the best reason not to buy Chinese. Every purchase of Chinese product gives someone in China means for living. When they have $$ they produce children. Too many people = too much pollution. We need to starve China, so they bring down their population and that would be the best thing to do for the world as whole. Because when their 1.5 billion people have $$ they start to demand goods. To make goods we have to spend resources, burn fuel, etc. Once they bring their population under control, I might revisit this post.
Starving the population to keep it under control…
…Stalin, is that you?
(Interesting that a guy who rails about communism would cozy up to the awful kinds of things that actually happened under communism…)
Dude, I said, “We need to starve China”, NOT “We need to starve Chinese people”. Cut on orders from them, whatever it takes, to slow their economical growth. So, they think again before making babies.
“We need to starve China, so they bring down their population and that would be the best thing to do for the world as whole”
You know, Mao already tried that, albeit indirectly.
The Great Leap Forward is a solid nominee for the
Worst Moments Ever In Human History Award.
I mean, gee, let’s require villages and cities with no means of producing steel other than melting down farm implements to make the stuff anyway…what could go wrong?
@slavuta – That is highly incorrect. You reduce population growth by improving education and standards of living.
“Here is the best reason not to buy Chinese. Every purchase of Chinese product gives someone in China means for living. When they have $$ they produce children. Too many people = too much pollution. We need to starve China, so they bring down their population and that would be the best thing to do for the world as whole”
This is exactly why I avoid buying American whenever I can. I’d rather have a billion Chinese any day than a billion Americans.
The Chinese controlled their population with the one-child policy. It worked, and now they have had to relax that policy.
Money doesn’t create children, basic biology and a lack of contraception create children.
In fact, the poor have many more children than the wealthy.
You can buy or not buy whatever you want, but if you want their to be fewer children in China, boycotting their manufactured goods will not achieve that goal.
Authoritarian jackboots because communism.
These are the people who thought that ground countertop material would make an excellent filler for baby formula. Design and build – well they can do a great job reverse engineering great products, and can work wonders with pirated technology.
We’ve already seen how bad the result of Daimler and Cerberus could be. I can’t wait to see what comes out when China gets a chance.
“Authoritarian jackboots because communism.”
Correlation is not causation
“These are the people who thought that ground countertop material would make an excellent filler for baby formula”
Yes, but this isn’t unique to the Chinese. There are places in the US and Canada where unscrupulous contractors have, eg, thought that chemical waste is a great filler for schoolyards.
I’d also add that the people who perpetrated the melamine contamination faced a much steeper penalty than western nationals typically for their corporate malfeasance.
“Design and build – well they can do a great job reverse engineering great products, and can work wonders with pirated technology”
This was said about Japan, Korea and Taiwan in the past quarter-century and they’ve since progressed some ways beyond it.
I’m no fan of China, not by a long shot, but criticisms should be factual, not dog-whistles.
“But it should be judged on it’s quantifiable properties, not “because I don’t like where it came from”. That’s an ugly slippery slope.”
You mean the BDS crowd trying to make Israel a pariah state might have less than noble motives?
“You mean the BDS crowd trying to make Israel a pariah state might have less than noble motives?”
I was expecting this.
Here’s the question: is the person’s position internally consistent? If you subscribe to BDS, do you also support boycotting China? Most BDS people I know are also “Free Tibet” types, and certainly do.
That’s my issue with slavuta: I can’t see the consistency: it’s not communism, because China isn’t particularly communist and he seems okay with Russians. It isn’t authoritarianism, because, again, he’s okay with the Russians. Apparently he isn’t okay with Germans, French or Mexicans “because politics”.
Now, the only people I know who are okay with Russia but twitchy about western Europe and Mexico “because politics” are, well, not very nice people at all.
I was expecting this. “No enemie… er slippery slopes on the left”.
When your friends in the BDS crowd are willing to publicly boycott the Palestinian Authority for making it a capital crime to sell land to Jews or criticize the kingdom of Jordan for not allowing Jews to be citizens I’ll see them as being internally consistent and not just folks with Jews on the brain. Supporting Tibet costs them nothing in regard to their support of the Palestinians. Let them make a principled critique of both sides in the Jewish-Arab conflict and they’ll quickly become pariahs on the left themselves.
psarhjinian,
and who you are to judge? What, you are the supreme court here?
Read the question, give the answer. Don’t judge others.
“Read the question, give the answer. Don’t judge others.”
That’s not how conversations work.
In the future, if you are advocating for starving China and pontificating on the poor work ethic of Mexicans then you should plan on getting judged.
More fascists than anything else these days and even back in the day, they (nor the Soviets) were true communists.
Closest thing to true communism were the kibbutz system in Israel.
Q: Do You Care if China Sells You Your Next Jeep Wrangler?
A: Not if it saves me 13 cents!
– American
Exactly.
See my comment below…I wonder how many guys use Harbor Freight tools to modify their Jeeps? And for that matter, almost all hand and power tools are made in China these days.
All one has to do is go ride one of the dirt bikes made in China to see the utter crap they are capable of building.
I am not saying if they take ownership of a car company that they will move manufacturing there, but they can build some surprisingly awful stuff and people buy it because they save a few bucks.
I always make sure it is made in Taiwan. It doesn’t make the tool better but it doesn’t feed the Chinese
I’m in the process of bringing a product to market and the general consensus in the industrial and electronics industries seems to be that the Taiwanese have their act together in terms of consistent quality control, something you don’t necessarily find in China.
The residents of Taiwan are Han Chinese, just like the majority of the folks on the mainland, with pretty much the same cultural background, but on Taiwan over the past few decades they learned that you can’t sell junk in the developed world. The Taiwanese seem to understand that 差不多 ( chabuduo / chàbuduō ), “almost”, an attitude common in China, doesn’t work when it comes to making and selling stuff.
It’s like flying Delta.
“I’ll never fly Delta again. Until they have the cheapest flight to where I’m going!”
@Hoon Goon – sad but true!
To answer the question. No, I would not buy a vehicle assembled in China.
My preference in order would be Canadian assembled with a UNIFOR sticker. Next on my list, American made with a UAW sticker… Running a distant third on my criteria list, Canadian, or American assembled Honda. I do like the looks, and the build quality of a Honda. The rest of the Japanese offerings, just don’t appeal to me.
I prefer to keep Canadians, and Americans in good paying jobs.
My ’03 Suzuki Vitara came from Ontario, or at least its “final assembly” occurred there. I wonder where the motor and transmission etc came from?
@ttacgreg…..My guess China ? I drive an American assembled EB Mustang. I believe the engine was made in Spain.
Arriba!
Suzuki, and in 03′ nonetheless, it would almost certainly have come from Japan. Although possibly Hungary (really)!
Mikey,
Would you car if FCA was owned by the Chinese ? if they kept the plants in North America? I guess I am asking would the rank and file car who signs their paycheck if they were still getting one?
If FCA was owned by the Chinese and kept the plants running in North America, I would entertain the thought of purchasing a FCA product.
Right now, the rank and file of any manufacturing operation couldn’t give a rats a$$ where their pay cheque comes from.
I feel the same way about my pension cheque.
Mikey,
Thanks for the reply.
Perhaps present company is excluded, but I guarantee you that the number of people who say they won’t buy a Chinese vehicle far, far exceeds the number who will actually follow through with this promise.
Make no mistake, it bugs me, too. But ask any retiree driving a Buick Envision if he or she knows – or cares – where it was built, not to mention the millions of Chinese parts in new “American” vehicles.
Just because some people don’t care, some of us do. I realize there are products that are virtually impossible not to buy from countries such as China. That said, I do my level-best to check labels and buy as much American-made goods as possible. Is saving a few cents/dollars worth having my friends, neighbors (and family) lose a job? Is it worth sending $300 billion (plus) a year in excess trade to a country that is neither friend or ally? One that forces us to face large tariffs if we dare attempt to sell a product to them made in our own country, or join a lopsided JV while mandating we give up our intellectual property (or if that doesn’t work, simply steal it?)?
I’ve eyed a Jeep for a number of years. It might be a number of years before I can seriously look at one after having just adopted our daughter. Yes. Yes, it will matter if it is owned by the Chinese.
Jeeps are the most unreliable crappy cars on the road.
and I own one.
I laughed at first because I thought, “OK so the company that lands at the BOTTOM of every reliability study is ow going to be chinese… cue the irony…”
But really, can it get any worse? if anything, I actually expect it to get better because of less cost pressures.
I am looking forward to chinese ownership because I anticipate the quality will go UP and I love jeeps, and would love a higher quality jeep.
Interesting thought, does this hurt the Chinese industry as a whole in the US. Does knowing they would now be Chinese and in turn seeing them at the bottom of quality rankings reenforce current stereotypes making it harder for companies that follow?
@threer: “Just because some people don’t care, some of us do.”
As I said, “Perhaps present company is excluded…”
“Is it worth sending $300 billion (plus) a year in excess trade to a country that is neither friend or ally?”
Do you think sustained trade is perhaps a good way to make other nations more friendly and allied?
“Do you think sustained trade is perhaps a good way to make other nations more friendly and allied?”
I do. That’s why this “righty” supported Obama’s relaxation with Cuba.
“Is it worth sending $300 billion (plus) a year in excess trade to a country that is neither friend or ally?”
What was our trade deficit with, say Saudi Arabia, back in the day? Hell, we even spilled blood for them (think Lee Greenwood).
I see your point, but China isn’t the first trade partner we have that doesn’t have our back…and it won’t be the last.
No country really has another’s back, they just have aligned interests.
That said, trade is usually such an alignment; a country you can’t or won’t trade with doesn’t need to listen to a damn thing you have to say. Case in point: the DPRK.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
@psar….Not wanting to introduce politics here..However I sleep better at night knowing the might of the USA military has “my back”
Exactly. And if Chinese and American interests didn’t align, then we wouldn’t be doing business with them.
One of the few things I support Trump on is the idea of getting a better Chinese trade deal. What we have isn’t worth a trade war, but it’s not as good as it should be.
But I don’t see how he does that *and* leans on them to resolve the North Korean situation. If I were China, in fact, a *worse* trade deal would be my price for pushing Dear Leader to grow up and stop acting like an idiot. It’s just too obvious. We’ll see how this goes, I guess.
“I realize there are products that are virtually impossible not to buy from countries such as China. ”
It’s virtually impossible to manufacture anything today without having to buy at least some things from China. I use Chinese plastic in the Harmonicaster because the brand I’m using is the best I’ve found so far, but I buy Chinese screws and nuts because I don’t really have a choice, that’s where a lot of hardware is made today. I use quality Orange Drop capacitors, but I have no way of knowing where they are made until I see the country of origin on the packaging when the parts arrive. Could be Singapore, could be Mexico, could be California.
And beyond the fact that it’s now difficult to find certain items that are NOT made in China, there’s the not-so-insignificant fact that 7% of the US federal debt is held by…you guessed it, China.
So I’d say for the vast majority of Americans, where their stuff is made is the least of their concerns.
Clearly some examples of non-nuanced, simplistic thinking on this thread so far . . . .
With all due respect, I take exception to your comment, sir…
@ttacgreg…I believe this thread was “QOTD ? The question was asked, and folks are answering, with their thoughts, and opinions.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that what the QOTD is all about ?
“We live in a land of German-owned Rollers and Indian-owned Jags”
Neither of which is a mainstream brand. Volvo has been careful to not introduce many models PRC’d, and they too are not a mainstream brand. The Chinese may have all sorts of projections on international Jeep badged sales, but here in ‘Murica I think it will hurt sales. Ram won’t change and the other brands do not matter much, all but Fiat can essentially disappear except in name only if the badge is worth saving.
Well Chinese ownership would make me laugh so hard I’d be a danger to others on the road if I saw a Hecho en Mexico Ram with Profits gone to China sporting a Rebel flag.
The entertainment value never ends.
I’m pretty sure that the Confederacy imported a lot of goods in exchange for their cotton.
FCA is pretty much a mess when it comes to reliability. I know Chrysler was never great but under Fiat it has gotten much worse every new vehicle they have launched; Cherokee, Renegade, Dart, 200, Pacifica, 500 series have been plagued with issues.
Sergio and Fiat family knows the storm clouds in the horizon sales are starting to tank and cost cuts have had huge impact on reliability (more warranty costs down the road). Better to dump and take the profit and run but will they find a sucker to buy it..
I agree, and I’d point out all of those models are post Daimler/Cerberus. Funny that.
The company’s quality was never exactly Toyota-esque BEFORE Fiat took them over either.
But under FCA recently it has gotten worse recently, it is sad there was signs of improvement 3-4 years ago.
Chrysler Kwality is legendary but if its actually gotten worse than that legacy, its about time to bail out.
This may just be coincidence but Sergio started pushing hard for a merger in early 2015, while the current crop of Fiat sourced fails started to come out in 2013 with KL Cherokee and continued. Perhaps the switch to Fiat platforms was simply a cost saving measure while they bought time for an eventual merger? From the reliability standpoint it does not seem to be working out well.
@dmoan
Signs of improvement on mature Daimler era platforms, some of which are still in production.
Seems like a lot of people are missing the actual question. Not where the car is assembled, but who owns the company that assembles it.
I don’t think Jag or LR have lost any of their status. And I’d be willing to bet, at least in LR’s case, that 50% of the owners of the cars even know that a Chinese company owns them.
Personally, no, I really don’t care who owns the company as long as the product is high quality and desirable.
I don’t think thats quite accurate… LR is owned by Tata, an indian company?
they didn’t sell did they?
Well crap. You’re correct.
Indian, not chinese ownership.
Assembly location also dictates local suppliers of that region for many components.
IS FCA American now?
I mean at first the idea of fiat-underpinned-jeeps were going to cause riots in the streets, but really no one really cared.
This is one of those things that everyone will talk about, it’ll be in the newspapers. every car blog will talk about it. facebook will have memes…
but no one will ACTUALLY care enough to change their behavior.
Thats pretty much what happened to Budweiser.. and yet I don’t think most people care or notice.
If I had a craving for a Budweiser, instead I’d opt for zero calorie seltzer water. Unfortunately, I don’t think the bottlers have a hops flavored seltzer. But then I felt that way before InBev bought them.
i’m with the poster from yesterday – this, and all Chinese ownership should be prohibited until US ownership is permitted without 50% “partnership and mandatory tech transfer.
“The question today is: would Chinese ownership taint the company and its brands”
It would depend on how much “America” the brand has treaded on and how much the demographic cares. In the case of Chrysler (the brand), Fiat or Alfa, it probably wouldn’t matter.
Jeep, Dodge and Ram might have problems. It really depends on the execution of the merger and the quality of the product. There’s really no precedent aside from Daimler and Fiat’s respective acqui-mergers of Chrysler: JLR kept corporate out of the press and kept the product offerings; Volvo was a dead brand walking and Rolls, Aston and such weren’t far behind–and all of them were small brands.
I don’t think it’ll matter much, but if it does, then what it belies is a combination of a) bigotry and b) more rational fears, like China’s economic strength.
After all, for 20 years, this company’s been owned by overseas entities, and those entities were even based in countries we fought against in World War II. Americans didn’t seem to care much about that.
Clearly Americans haven’t cared since the 1990s if their Chrysler, Jeeps, Rams and Dodges are made by a company that is foreign owned.
I don’t think being Chinese owned would make much of a difference.
Bringing a Chinese-made FCA product into the States might be another matter…perhaps that’d turn off some buyers but I doubt most would care.
“I don’t think being Chinese owned would make much of a difference.”
You know, if you’d asked me last week, I would have had that same opinion.
What’s changed?
Nothing but my perceptions: I underestimated the strength of the undercurrents of bigotry.
Every once in a while, we need a reminder that these creeps are out there. We got one this weekend.
Know what I’d love to see? One of these white power marches…in a completely empty street. Or a crowd of “counter protesters” who are just laughing at them. Nothing would hack these morons off worse.
I personally do not see the downside but I think the answer for most of us depends on how that merger is executed. Will the engineering and manufacturing be increasingly done in China? Will it be a hands off approach like Volvo? Right now, I don’t think most car buying American’s are ready to buy a Chinese made vehicle from a Chinese manufacturer. That will change.
The reality is, its probably this or nothing as time rolls on. There is no FCA 20 years from now without such a merger/purchase. The Chinese WILL become a player in the US market, just a matter of time.
People once said the exact same things about Japanese and Korean vehicles and they are now very much part of the US Market and here to stay.
I have toured the Toyota plant in Guangzhou, China and found the process and the output (Camry) to be the same as the USA KY facility. I have colleagues who have owned the the China produced product for 6+ years and seem to have the same user experience as stateside folks.
Supply chain and proper QA discipline always rule the day.
That said I’m not sure historical Fiat quality could get any worse. The Soviets licensed the 124 and when they realized what they had been given, they added a manual, crank handle start option. ;-)
Depends on how many cylinders they are willing to sell me.
I admire your ideological consistency, sir.
I’m engine-configuration Vulpine.
“That thing got a Hemi?”
The only question that matters.
It can’t possibly be any worse than the italian-built renegade we test drove for the wife’s car (wound up with a challenger instead).
FCA should take the whole jeep brand out back and have it ‘taken care’ of. Garbage car. If they are owned by chinese maybe there will be an improvement.
What did not you like about the Renegade? 9spd AT? Madrid took FCB outback – no issues
I don’t really think Volvo is a good analogy here, if for no other reason than the scale involved. They’ve developed a single architecture and applied it to three new products at this point (XC90, S90, and XC60). FCA has many more platforms across a larger range of categories, and the fact of the matter is that the R&D costs are exponentially larger just to keep pace with the update cycle in the wider industry, let alone to create that many compelling, quality vehicles in a profitable way. If it were easy, somebody else would have done it at some point in the last 20 years, but everyone who’s tried has blown through massive piles of cash before dumping the whole mess on someone else.
Actually, I’d say the Volvo analogy makes some sense.
After all, Volvos are bought by educated, affluent people. These folks tend to be picky about stuff like quality. If the new, Chinese-owned Volvo were making junky cars, then these buyers would be the first ones to turn away. They aren’t. At first glance, there’s nothing wrong with these cars.
I haven’t seen anything obviously wrong quality-wise with the Buick Envision either, and those are sold to fairly well off people too.
This seems to dispel the “China makes junk” narrative, at least for now.
(Of course, whether the current spate of Volvos and Envisions will turn out to be long-term reliable is another question…)
The only Chinese made Volvo sold here is the S60 Inscription. The rest are made in Sweden or like most regular S60s in Ghent, Belgium. However, the Volvo factory in South Carolina is now building to turn out S60s, I feel there will be little to complain about if US-made is your criterion, and if a Volvo appeals to you in the first place.
It’s like this QOTD, guaranteed to turn out the xenophobic mob for a spot of howling. Really, the question is, would you continue to buy Chrysler products made in the USA (sort of with Mexican and Chinese input and cheap Chinese parts like everyone else) if the ownership were Chinese. There appears to be no plan to summarily move Chrysler production to China, but the crowd roars off in that direction as if it might be fact.
It’s not as if the Italians with “fictitious” registration in the Netherlands and HQ in the UK for tax purposes (but mainly bankruptcy as British laws are notoriously lax on companies in that event) run some kind of wonderful outfit in the first place. So far it seems to me Chrysler profit has been a way for FCA to cop some additional funds to design and build some completely non-achieving Fiats and Alfas in Southern European factories that have no history of achieving good assembly quality – ever. Their Polish factory seems better.
The only turncoat in the entire equation of sourcing Chinese-made vehicles and flogging them in the US is GM with the Buick Envision. They also announced the Cadillac CT6 hybrid would be built there. A US company overseas selling a unique foreign-built vehicle back in the homeland, just as they’ve done on and off with decades of Opels from Germany. Shoot ’em at dawn! Volvo was always foreign and an import, soon to change to some extent with the new US factory.
I take the general leaping up and down as a complete waste of time. The question was like throwing out a bunch of meat to starved dogs and expecting a decorous reasoned response.
Would everyone , who does not want FCA sold to a Chinese company be happier if they only took a 49% interest and it stayed as a American ( ok a Italian , British, Dutch company I think that is where they have there HQ and are incorporated status) If the market decided Chinese quality does not cut it , it does not cut it. There are very few things you can not get that are made in North America, really nothing I can think of, you will more than likely pay more for it but there is a choice.
If the jobs stay in Toledo (and other points in North America) than its hard to argue against it.
I wonder how many people commenting here have owned a car ostensibly “made in America” with heavy Chinese parts content.
Yeah if Chinese ownership keeps FCA/Chrysler in existence and they just sit back that’s fine. If their ownership implies burdening Chrysler vehicles with even more Chinesium, forget it.
Nope, because I’d never buy a Jeep. There are Mopar products I like, namely the big sedans and coupes, and I’ll tell you right now that the RAM is a good looking truck, but their quality rep won’t allow my brain to sign the note, so to speak.
My very first car was a ’78 Lebaron, and while I have great nostalgia for it, it kind of sucked. I’ve never owned another Mopar product.
Only American manufacturers are judged based on products from 40 years ago.
No, other manufacturers are also judged on the products they made 40 years ago.
It just so happens that their products from that era were better.
Yes and no. It’s their current quality rep that I care about, despite the relative suckage of my now 40-year old Lebaron (which probably met the crusher by the late 90’s). I’ve had reasonably good luck with Fords over time, but the worst Ford I’ve ever owned was a ’08 Lincoln MKZ which won all sorts of freakin’ quality awards and was NOT a good car.
If Chargers were known for being bullet proof, I’d probably own one right now.
If chinese ownership of FCA goes as well as Geely’s ownership of Volvo has, then I don’t see why not. All the Wrangler has going for it is identity, and part of that is the Toledo plant, so I doubt any US-market models will be built overseas. And it’s not like their build quality can get much worse anyway.
How the pendulum swings. If you lived in the 50s you might remember the when goods made in Japan were derided as poorly made and made out of “recycled beer cans”. Some of them were but:
By the 1960s Japanese optics and electronics were as good as any in the world and reasonably priced. In the 1970 and 80s their cars reached similar status. Still for several decades there were many who would not buy excellent Japanese products and would give you their reasons why. With consistent mild political pressure and strengthening of the Yen Japanese Auto factories moved to the US. Quality does not seem to have suffered.
Granted Japan does not have the “just good enough” ethic but but also Toyotas totally made in China are as well built as those built elsewhere and please their owners. Engineering and factory standards are more important than where the factory is located.
Currently I would not buy an FCA product but that is due to reliability of their products not due to who owns the brand.
If China’s deep pockets can keep FCA factories in the USA open all the better.
If they want to sell me a BAW Knight S12 (read: ugly-facelifted 4cyl XJ Cherokee) for like $12k new, I’d consider it. But an actual serious new car purchase? Hell no.
American components, Russian components, (Chinese components)
All made in Taiwan.
http://imgur.com/gallery/1DbTOfC
Come on people, robots are robots. It’s FCA, it can only go up.
I don’t think most people really care anymore and it’s not like FCA products would lose their reputation for good quality.
Lets not mix quality vs reliability. I tested Jeep Renegade made in Italy. It was Altitude package with MT. The interior is quality. everything is nice to touch, turn and twist. I would say, not all Toyotas have buttons that nice to operate. Now, reliability… Here comes the lease.
We know they would keep Ram production stateside because of chicken tax, but Jeep would suffer as I can see the GMC ad campaigns and for theupcoming Bronco , wherever its being made, certainly won’t be in China.
I don’t think I’d consider the Volvo deal a success, I certainly don’t consider it a premium brand anymore ,now that they’ve moved all production to China.Its a shame for Sweden.
I have a problem with China that still has significant human rights issues and of course environmental black flags.
I have no problem with Mexico, because as a people their labor force apparently has graded well with at least VW products apparently and they are a Western culture which is important.
Fundamentally I don’t think the Chinese govt. likes us, and won’t likely support Volvo or CFCA.
Can’t say I’m shocked to see how quickly and completely this went right to politics, race, and all the finger pointing and name calling. Kinda like the current state of affairs in the US.
As an owner of a 2015 Wrangler (Italian? Swiss? US-assembled?) I will consider another in the future based on the appeal of the Jeep itself – looks, powertrain, etc.
And I suspect just about everyone else will too.
“Is Volvo making great cars again?”
I’ll give this an “ehh,” and a “we will see.” Their complex engineering do not point to the longevity and reliability which made Volvo great in the past.
Are their current cars better than the 850 and S40? Surely.
I feel like most people won’t care as long as they keep the North American factories open/open new ones.
I don’t really care since we’re all the same species, I’m supporting humans no matter what I buy, when other species get involved or things are imported from other planets i might care more about “buying human/buying Earth”
I don’t think it really matters where a vehicle is made/assembled or who owns the business.
As the article mentions, look at Volvo, Jag, LR, etc.
Production will still be in the US and I’d say design and engineering.
Maybe if the Chinese own FCA a better product will be the outcome.
I say let it go and move on.
Maybe not when it comes to engineering and assembly, but it sure matters when it comes to enriching the PRC further (which is no friend to the US).
To answer the headline question I reply with an emphatic YES!
Disregarding everything to do with quality and other supposed complaints I have only one critical concern: Politics. Being Chinese owned, the company would be an ongoing risk for personal and national security here in the US simply because there is no real political partnership between the two countries. And honestly, until there is a true world government that can effectively control nationalism and regional “leaders”, there will be no security between nations.
I question whether you can buy any coffee maker or any like small appliance that isn’t made in China unless you buy used at Goodwill or the thrift shop. I am not as opposed to Chinese manufactured goods as much as they manufacturer to the lowest price point and thus take short cuts that make a product unsafe and/or poor quality. Eventually most of our vehicles could be made in China, but having said that I am not endorsing Chinese made goods. I doubt FCA would turn down a good offer from the Chinese but unless they have to they are not going to sell cheap. I prefer US made products when I can get them but even then most US made products are assembled from foreign components and many of these components are made in China. Whether one agrees or does not agree this is the Global economy we live in. You could become self-sufficient and live like the Amish. You could buy used items that are made in the US when you cannot find a new item made in the US or where all or most of the items are made in China. There is still a choice, you just have to be more open to alternatives, but if you don’t care then don’t worry.
I am hesitant to buy FCA products now and would definitely cross them off my list if they were Chinese owned.
But as for other people, I doubt they would even know enough to care. I was at a County Fair last month and the local GMC/Buick dealer had several vehicles on display. A middle aged women was looking at the $40K+ SUV and said to me it looked very nice to which I replied it did but I would never spend that much money on a vehicle built in China. She was very surprised when I pointed out the Monroney sticker with the assembly point and high percentage of Chinese parts. Seems most car buyers just look at the sticker price, then options included, and possibly fuel economy. They never even notice where a car is made or where its parts come from.
I wouldn’t go for a Chinese company owning FCA unless it’s a privately owned company that can allow Chrysler vehicles to be built without compromising safety.
You brought up a good point, many would not even look at the sticker to see where the vehicle is made. Many would assume that since the Envision is a Buick that it is made in the USA. Even some lawn equipment is made in China regardless of what name is on it. As for the Envision I saw one at the Auto Expo in February and thought it was nice but the new Honda CRV is nice as well and has a lower MSRP, but as others have stated few would pay MSRP for a new Buick.
I barely care where a car is bolted together. I seriously don’t care who owns the company. The product is all that matters. China can build anything from lead-filled kids toys to iPhones.
Ultimately the Buick Envision isn’t overpriced crap because it is built in China, it is crap because it was designed and built by GM to be crap. It would be no better if it was built in the middle of Detroit. I don’t think we have ever heard a bad word said about the Chinese built Honda Fit’s sold north of the border, have we?
Volvo shows that Chinese ownership can be a good thing.
In the case of the Wrangler I’d want it to built in the US simply as a point of pride and a bit authenticity. Primary ownership is less of a big deal though. I’m sure we haven’t seen the last of big manufacturing companies coming under foreign ownership. The US has been steadily transitioning away from manufacturing for decades now and I doubt it will stop. Ultimately we will end up like Britain with a few niche manufacturers and the and primarily just a big financial institution.
FCA is realizing surprising profits since their takeover of the Chrysler group, even if the Fiat brand itself is languishing here in the States (a pity, since they are decent cars and in some cases seriously underpriced (either that, or their competitors are overpriced. Yes, Mini, I’m looking at you.)
FCA has become a desirable brand, despite the obsolete reputations of their many brands. People avoiding the brand should really reconsider and try driving their cars and trucks.
I think it would hurt Jeep and Ram and cause some sales loss. I doubt it would be huge but it’s there. As I have mentioned before when I drove a Volvo multiple people pointed out to me that Volvo was a Chinese brand. Several of these people were not car people but soundly in the blue color ram demo. I think China is a big step for a lot of people, European and mexican built cars do not arouse the same suspicion that Chinese made cars will. Nothing against Russia but I could see Americans having issue with Russian built cars as well. I imagine this could change with time.
Personally, I think FCA products can’t get any worse than it is, so what the hell. Then again, I’d pick a Chinese Volvo over a US made Fiat any day.
It doesn’t matter. Sergio has run the company into the ground, shutting down models that never got updated when they no longer sell, with no replacement considered, and squandering cash on muscle cars and Alfa. He has no compacts or mid-size models, let alone ones that could compete, and the bloom is off the rose for the Fiat-based Jeeps.
He has no cutting edge technology the Chinese would want, no competitive models outside of Jeep, and to top it off the company still has massive debt from Fiat. He has no chance to sell FCA to the Chinese, after GM and VW brushed him off – they’re not that dumb. This is just a float, a last chance for a miracle before he has to part out the company.
That sounds like pure prejudice, Lorenzo; the fiat products are very good but because of people like you that hold onto obsolete beliefs, Sergio CAN’T sell the true compact and mid-sized cars he has.
As for the “bloom is off the rose for the Fiat-based Jeeps,” I suggest you look again. Jeeps are all over the place and they’re still among FCA’s top sellers.