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I told y’all on Friday that while the Ford Maverick might be a great truck, I can’t get too excited about it for whatever reason.
And now, it’s your turn.
You can make this about cars currently on the road, or about recent or upcoming launches — what vehicle excites others but makes you shrug? Are you indifferent to the forthcoming Bronco? Maybe the Maverick’s rival, the Santa Cruz? Something else?
To be clear, I mean “indifferent”. As in just not too excited or upset. This isn’t about a car you hate or don’t like or wish didn’t exist. This is merely about those models that create buzz on Twitter like cicadas — the kind of buzz you’d wish would just shut up (also like with cicadas).
Sound off in the comments below.
[Image: Ford]
87 Comments on “QOTD: What Makes You Shrug?...”
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Anything from a segment or brand I’m unlikely to ever buy. I understand rational arguments for why people buy these things, but it never makes sense to me intuitively.
-Hot hatches
-1/2 ton diesel trucks
-Small trucks
-Plug-in hybrids
-VW
-Nissan
-Honda
-Land Rover
Honorable mention to vaporware EVs (including Cybertruck). But my hatred for these is probably too strong to be a fair answer to the question.
“vaporware EVs (including Cybertruck)”
There’s a massive 4 story factory under construction west of Austin and photographs of the 8000lb presses needed to make it that say otherwise.
I’m sure something will come out of that plant someday.
I have extreme skepticism it will come in a timely fashion or bear much resemblance to the “concept” vehicle.
” or bear much resemblance to the “concept” vehicle.”
Given the equipment they are installing in the plant, it will resemble the prototype. For better or worse, that design is for low-cost construction. That and it is a structurally strong design. As far as mirrors go, it sounds like the production will have them according to some patent filings. The yoke steering wheel will be there since we’re already seeing videos of Plaid owners with their yoke steering wheels crop up on youtube. But the exterior of the Cybertruck isn’t for the looks. It’s a design for cheap assembly, low material cost, and strength with very little or no consideration as to how it looks. As an engineer, I’m interested because most vehicles will start with some artwork and engineers have to make something underneath that matches. The cybertruck seems to have started with cost and structural strength numbers with the outward appearance being the end result of those calculations. Backwards from what we see in usual designs. It looks as though it’s a totally engineering driven design with the guys with the art degrees left totally out.
I think cost and budget will keep it looking the way it does in production. It just looks like it will probably get mirrors added on.
I’m an engineer also, and I can assure you that stamping body panels from 11 ga stainless steel is hardly a cost savings measure.
“stamping body panels from 11 ga stainless steel is hardly a cost savings measure”
• Some say that bending is easier than stamping.
• Some say that a large hydraulic press brake costs less to obtain than a progressive transfer press.
Here is a ‘medium-size’ transfer press (not large enough to do a complete bodyside):
https://youtu.be/ixPhogfZTHU
• Some say that all those stamping dies are also expensive, fiddly, time-consuming to produce or repair, and relatively easy to wreck.
• Some say that one can compensate for increased cycle times (and add redundancy) by installing multiple sets of equipment [if the equipment is as relatively affordable as a press brake].
Here are some other ‘experts’ struggling to come to terms with a new concept [stuck on semantics and cycle times]:
https://stampingsimulation.com/forming-stainless-steel-tesla-cybertruck/
https://stampingsimulation.com/forming-stainless-steel-part-2/
What do those “experts” say about the price of a coil of 0.120″ 304SS vs 0.030″ – 0.040″ mild steel? And how many parts you get per coil?
I’d believe clever manufacturing engineering and equipment design can get around some of the obstacles of forming thicker metal. I would not believe anyone who told me buying stainless at 4X the thickness of standard steel body panels was for cost savings.
See “Fig 1. Steel distribution in vehicle” here:
https://matmatch.com/blog/advanced-high-strength-steel-stronger-lighter-safer-cars/
For anyone interested, there is less and less ‘mild steel’ in modern vehicles [even some pickups]. (Tried to look up the grade of steel used in some current body panels [outers], but this information is relatively difficult to obtain unless you work at the OEM – and even when you call the steel engineer at the same OEM where you work that individual is generally grumpy and doesn’t like to share – in my experience.)
If and when it shows up, the Cybertruck will be relatively low volume. The stainless ‘exoskeleton’ will allegedly replace not only the body panels, but a lot of the underlying structure. Upfront investment and tooling could be *significantly* lower.
(I have seen a lot of vehicle business cases which failed because the projected volumes couldn’t offset the initial investment required for doing things the conventional way.)
“I have extreme skepticism it will come in a timely fashion…”
Apparently you don’t know what the word “vaporware” means and you’re unfamiliar with the track record of Musk and Tesla.
Musk talks a lot and is always wildly optimistic with his predictions for deadlines and prices. But if Tesla ever released a computer-generated image of a pretend vehicle that it had no intention of ever producing, I’ve never heard of it.
There are architects, designers, industrial designers, and sculptors who very much believe that “form follows function” and that the name intrinsic aesthetic of any object is derived from its utility and honest design, which is true to it’s purpose, purpose and structure. Contrary to popular opinion, a pickup truck does not need to to look like a cartoonish variation of what we’re already familiar with in order to be beautiful.
I’m with Jack4x
I’ve designed thousands of sheet metal parts over the years and I promise you the very idea of building a vehicle out of 11Ga steel is lunacy and a complete non-starter. Take my word for it: it’s not happening. And it wouldn’t be 304 stainless, because one trip to the beach and it will be covered in rust within hours. You’ll need 316L steel at multiples of the cost of 304 stainless. Also, fun fact: stainless steel stains like hell. Cars are made of 22-24 ga steel and it’s formed to give it strength and stiffness. This is why cars lack large flat panels – stiffness. A person would have to be exceptionally dimwitted to believe that a brake would be at all suitable to manipulate exterior panels on a car that will be unpainted. There will be ugly tool marks all over it, it’s unavoidable. And then, what about the welding and the grinding? Because that will look just lovely and take forever. Go ask a welder what happens when you weld stainless steel.
This Cybertruck nonsense is just that, the vehicle will never exist as presented and as described. It’s unworkable. And anyone who knows anything about manufacturing and forming metal knows why. I don’t care how many buildings with whatever equipment Tesla assembles – it ain’t happening as described and as presented. I’m certain Tesla is capable of introducing a DIFFERENT vehicle and calling it Cyber-whatever if they choose to do so.
“A person would have to be exceptionally dimwitted…”
I certainly qualify as that.
Here’s some 304 after ~47 years of being parked outside the garage:
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/report-says-st-louis-arch-corrosion-and-staining-is-cosmetic-not-structural/article_e52f26e8-0665-11e2-9eee-001a4bcf6878.html
How Emmett Brown keeps his vehicle looking good:
https://deloreanindustries.com/stainless-care/
“Go ask a welder what happens when you weld stainless steel.”
And then go ask a metallurgist about passivation:
https://www.besttechnologyinc.com/passivation-systems/what-is-passivation/
Maybe 301-series?
https://www.sae.org/news/2020/06/tesla-cybertruck-stainless-steel
“I have extreme skepticism it will come in a timely fashion…”
Apparently you don’t know what the word “vaporware” means and you’re unfamiliar with the track record of Musk and Tesla.
Musk talks a lot and is always wildly optimistic with his predictions for deadlines and prices. But if Tesla ever released a computer-generated image of a pretend vehicle that it had no intention of ever producing, I’ve never heard of it.
“But if Tesla ever released a computer-generated image of a pretend vehicle that it had no intention of ever producing, I’ve never heard of it.”
-$35K Model 3
-Model S Plaid+ (500 mile range edition)
-Robotaxis by 2020
-Semi by 2019
-Roadster 2 by 2020
-To say nothing of battery swap stations, permanent free supercharging, Full Self Drive etc.
I’m sure you Tesla guys have excuses ready for all of them, I’m sure they’re all “coming” in some stage or another, blah blah blah. At some point you have to deliver.
Here’s an actual manufacturing expert on the subject of the cybertruck:
youtube.com/watch?v=YQSQYQ44Qco&list=RDCMUCj–iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ&start_radio=1&rv=YQSQYQ44Qco&t=5
-$35K Model 3
https://insideevs.com/features/404376/video-35k-tesla-model-3-details/
-Semi by 2019
That was a ridiculous goal. Still, 2021 is 4 years which is actually pretty fast for a vehicle program. At least from my day.
-Model S Plaid+ (500 mile range edition)
So, they decided the 420 or whatever mile range 1000+ hp version was good enough for now. So what. They actually made a sane decision. That’s not a bad thing.
” At some point you have to deliver.”
Yeah, and they have. The Model S, the Model X, the Model Y, the Model 3. They’ve delivered those and the Model 3 is 16th ranking in world vehicle sales.
Oh, and one other comment about keeping on schedule for a product. I know Tesla hasn’t been great at it, but it’s not an easy thing to do. I’ve always tried over the years, but have missed targets before. Even if you plan on all kinds of delays, there are some that catch you by surprise. Often its vendors, but sometimes, before I had my own company, it’s last minute edicts by upper management. Like my current project. First, there was unexpected government paperwork and approval that took weeks. Then, multiple problems with the development tools shipped by the vendor. I have one shipment of parts from the vendor at the end of the month, but now I have to wait a year for the next. It’s one delay after the other. One issue two days ago. We just hit another vendor issue an hour ago and we’re scrambling to work around that. So, I get really, really, really sensitive about people whining about product delays. When you’re developing something complex and leading edge, there so much that can happen to delay your schedule. It’s impossible to predict everything that might happen. Its not like a home project where you’re dealing with known parts and methods. It’s not easy pushing the envelope of technology. Stuff breaks along the way.
If my company missed product intro deadlines by years, heads would roll. The products we design are on average at least as complex and costly as Tesla cars and have years long development cycles as well.
Yeah times are tough out there, but that’s true for everyone.
As someone whose job depends on rolling out new product on schedule I don’t have a ton of sympathy.
I get that Tesla does no wrong in your eyes, but they seem to me like the most amateurishly run large organization out there.
“I get that Tesla does no wrong in your eyes,”
That’s definitely not the case. I’ve repeatedly slammed their AV technology and have stated numerous times that I think the quality issues were because they were pushing the lines too fast. I’ve also stated numerous times that I was holding off on purchasing until the quality issues were resolved. I’m also not a fan of the first generations of their cars.I’m also critical of how they deal with independent shops and replacement parts.
“but they seem to me like the most amateurishly run large organization out there.”
Maybe you need to take a look at some of the established automakers. Don’t have time to list all of the issues there.
“As someone whose job depends on rolling out new product on schedule I don’t have a ton of sympathy.”
Yeah, when you’re pushing out the same boring product year after year sticking with the same technology year after year, that’s easy to do. Eventually you get destroyed by a competitor pushing the limits.
Again, it’s not an easy road when you try to compete against established players. Sometimes, the only way to get past them is to push the envelope. Pushing the envelope means taking chances and risks. That’s the rulebook. You don’t get ahead by taking the safe route. You have to push the envelope and take risks, And guess what, you get burned a lot and you just deal with it.
“Yeah, when you’re pushing out the same boring product year after year sticking with the same technology year after year, that’s easy to do.”
LMAO
You have no idea what I do or what my company does, but because we aren’t a “move fast and break things” tech style company or have a massively overpriced stock you’re absolutely sure we are behind the times.
There are more ways to innovate than having a blowhard CEO and using your customers as beta testers.
On the topic of Cybertruck concept vs. production [ex. “5 percent too big”]:
https://youtu.be/25ZuKkbHdqM?t=108
Why not just write, “everything I don’t want to buy” and be done with it?
Why not go police the comments on your own website?
What do *you* want to buy?
I like the Polestar 1, but they seem to still be lease-only.
Exactly…
Again, you are clueless about what the word “vaporware” means and apparently aren’t willing to Google it. Tesla has never produced vaporware. Tesla has frequently missed goals with regard to release dates and price points. But vehicles designed by Tesla have been and are currently being manufactured and sold. (Roadster-not vaporware; Model S-not vaporware, Model 3-not vaporware; Model X-not vaporware); Model Y-not vaporware). Where have you been? Are you sure you’re thinking about Tesla?
I know Tesla has made and still makes product. That’s not what’s being discussed here.
The Cybertruck is vaporware.
The Semi is vaporware.
The Roadster 2.0 is vaporware.
The Model S Plaid+ is vaporware.
Could these things come later and prove me wrong? Sure they could. Lordstown could start building product tomorrow too and no longer be considered vaporware. I don’t find either one to be likely though.
Broad proclamations by automotive executives regarding actions their company will take long after they are retired.
For example –
* BMW will reduce carbon emissions by 1/3 by 2030.
* Ford will be carbon neutral by 2050.
* GM will be all electric by 2035.
Mandarin speaking world totalitarian state by 2040.
Humanity extinct by 2060.
Dr. Zaius elected Chief Primate by 2124.
Compact CUV’s = MEH
Everything Hellcat. It’s cool, old school muscle, but I’ve often wondered what all the fuss is about. Seems like most buy them to drive around town, and those who do race have better dedicated cars for that. Same goes for Lambos and Ferraris. Doesn’t seem to make sense to spend that kind of money for all that horsepower when the speed limit is 65. To each his own.
“Same goes for Lambos and Ferraris.”
I hear what you are saying, but some vehicles are kinetic artwork and not necessarily for the performance. I think Lambo and Ferraris and higher-level stuff like Paganis fall into that category. I also view vintage lower power vehicles in that category as well. Like a vintage 1970’s Honda CB350. The commonality between them is the artistry and beauty of the design. Nothing to do with how fast or slow it goes. Sometimes, they are the vehicles we fantasized owning as youth when we had toy versions. I know I’m on a mission to get full-sized versions of my childhood toys. Take for example one of my favorites. The Ferrari Dino 246 GTS. A zero to 60 time of 8 seconds. A 2021 Kia Rio does 0-60 in 8.2 seconds. You’re not buying the Dino because you want to go fast.
“You’re not buying the Dino because you want to go fast.”
I’m not buying the Dino at all. :-)
Top speed, HP, 0-60, etc, are just numbers for comparison. Mostly you only have it pegged between 30-80 mph entering a FWY, slicing into a wide open lane, exiting a sharp decreasing radius, off camber, etc, pinned to your seat.
You just want to know how well it can get out of its own way.
Off-roading stuff. Whether it be trim-based (Renegade Trailhawk, ZR2) or vehicle-based (Bronco, Jimmy).
Same here. I will say that off roading seems very location based. For example in many western states I’ve noticed they have off road trail parks. But in FL (where I live) if you go “off road” you need an airboat not a 4×4. I don’t get the appeal of driving slowly over rough terrain, sounds like torture.
“ I don’t get the appeal of driving slowly over rough terrain, sounds like torture.”
It’s just as challenging in its own way as driving fast over smooth pavement. And you’re way less likely to get a speeding ticket. Which is the exact reason I bought a 94 Suzuki Sidekick 2 door and not a 94 Mazda Miata.
I find myself shrugging at super expensive cars: super cars, hyper cars, ultra high end luxury cars. I just don’t care about them. I don’t find them particularly good looking most of the time and as they are more expensive than I’ll ever be able to afford I’d rather read/watch content about cars more within reach.
I also don’t have any interest in crossovers or most 4x4s.
You could add German cars to the list but sometimes features will wind up in cars I do care about so I’ll occasionally look in out of curiosity.
I would rather spend money on several motorcycles than on one expensive car
Or on a higher level, a few below average price new cars rather than a single stupidly expensive one. Such as buying an $84,000 for a Porsche, or a fleet consisting of a Prius, a Rav4, and a Miata?
Fully agree. I really don’t care and they don’t impress me. I’d rather read reviews of common cars all day.
That is my tendency, I am interested in affordable vehicles. Super expensive ones that are unobtainable are curiosities more than anything. In a real sense car magazines and their digital descendants are just car porn, analogous to Playboy magazines of old. You indulge in them for their unobtainable fantasy objects.
I shrug when I see a backseat of the latest version of Mazda3 and CX30 and also when I don’t see a 6cyl in CX9
Big shrugs for button-shifters and electronic dashes. And huge shrugs for computer monitors in the center console
Wireless cellphone charging pads. Why would you want your phone to be loose in a difficult to reach cubby?
Apps to fiddle with your car. Why do I want to depend on a remote server for me to access my car?
Manual transmissions.
99% of everyone is slower in a manual transmission car than they would be in an automatic, and 100% of everyone is slower with a manual than a DCT/paddle del, but everyone wants to play Fast and Furious and shift 17 times during the course of a 10 second 1/4 mile. It’s laughable.
Manuals are old tech, and they’ve been out-darwined by better tech. That simple.
Strong comment. I’ll stand with you against the arrows.
You wanna fight in the shade?
Why not just write “manual transmissions” and be done with it?
Specifically to upset you, but since you already know it all, I’m sure you knew that, too. ;)
It’s the equivalent of the car wiping your A$$ for you.
It’s not about lightning fast shifts, never has been. You can keep those if it makes you feel better.
…as my manual transmission becomes more of a theft deterrent with each passing day.
“theft deterrent”
One more of the many reasons a car with a manual will always be superior to one with robo-gears.
I guess this would be covered by: If you have to ask you wouldn’t understand. With a manual you feel like you’re driving; with an automatic you’re just along for the ride.
Have you ever driven a CVT? It’s like a slow painless death by numbness. I rented a CVT Rogue and after awhile I was looking for something to crash into just so I could feel something. I don’t roadrace or drive especially fast, but can’t enjoy driving any car that doesn’t have a manual transmission.
And oh god the automatic commuter in heavy traffic. Just shoot me please.
Nissan’s CVT is particularly bad in general so your experience may have been more pronounced as a result.
It’s purely about fun and challenge. Driving a manual and an EV back-to-back makes dramatically clear how archaic the manual/ICE combination is. But there’s still satisfaction in nailing the heel-and-toe downshift or in firing off four perfectly executed upshifts in a row. The fun of it is the only reason to do it.
I prefer manual transmissions because they’re more fun. If you want fast, buy a plane ticket. It’s much faster and cheaper than a sports car.
Anything new from GM. They always seem to half-a$$ everything they introduce (Blazer/Arcadia) so my reaction to their new introductions is equally half-a$$
This is what bothers me most about GM, GM knows how to build good, high-quality cars and trucks, they just choose not to
lie
You are a wise man. GM is CRAP.
Obligatory: GM, what a disgrace!
Trucks, exotic cars, and 0-60 times.
With trucks, the numbers translate directly to work/pulling ability, from a dead stop, battling a headwind, etc.
At a glance, you get the layout, gearing, torque curve, etc. It would be nice if they let you hook up a horse trailer for the test drive, with appropriate water barrels, and turn you loose on the nearest steep mountain grade, but yeah.
When I read about a new vehicle, my interest is the motor, transmission, drivetrain, suspension, basic interior comfort characteristics, and overall performance and engineering. All of the other categories in the run of the mill reviews, safety features, bling and gimmicks, and infotainment, even styling, BIG SHRUG.
Anything fully electric.
The gloss/primer looking, non-metallic greys, light blues, tans and puke greens. It seems most CUVs since 2018 are one form of these paints
What about matte paint. Why would you want your paint to look dull on purpose? Who knew sun-faded and un-waxed was a style choice. Seems to be on high Euro cars too and I can only assume its an extra cost.
Those aren’t factory finishes that I’m aware of. They’re “wraps” or plasti-dips that are sprayed on, can be peeled away. Some of those I like, depending. Anything custom, of course, if not too loud, overdone, obnoxious, etc.
Factory option: https://www.bmwusa.com/innovations/bmw-individual.html
Teslas and Hondas. Critics fawn, I yawn.
The frothy, sweaty love journos have for Hondas is weird.
You guys are woke now! I’ve said this for decades now that Honda became a maker items for “broad consumption”.
And proving your point… it just happens to “Civic Week” at C/D.
What makes me shrug?
Cars in general. It looks like cars have the same effect on FoMoCo executives.
Anything with a Harley Davidson badge on it.
Pickup tests done with empty pickups. (Especially HD pickups)
The Grand Wagoneer is being way overhyped. Stellantis pricing it well into six figures while it shares showroom floor space with three sub-$30k models is quite daring. Maybe even foolish. Even more so given the limited configurations and color options. Bring the pricing down to earth and we’ll talk.
I’m also extremely meh on the Model S Plaid. Not sure why since I appreciate its capabilities, but I just don’t care about its existence.
“Ace of Base” articles. I guess it’s too much to ask for an actual review of a vinyl everywhere, block-off plates all around, steelies and crank windows.
god knows automakers won’t provide them, never mind airfare, sandwiches, accommodations, etc.
Kia Telluride.
You win.
Those p!ssing themselves for auto-steering, auto-braking and auto-parking are no doubt the same that shrug all day at manual transmissions.
Yipes, but what they need next is “auto-merging”. Hopefully that comes soon for them, but this should’ve come first. For all our sake!
You mean “Alex on Autos”. Got ya!
” And it wouldn’t be 304 stainless, because one trip to the beach and it will be covered in rust within hours. “. That’s a big fat lie. we test our 304L stainless parts in salt baths for hundreds of hours and they still look pristine.
Would it be fair to say “Hellcat”ing all the things made me shrug? Is that too old hat. I never understand the need for obscene amounts of power.
I recently picked up my Mazda3 Turbo and, honestly, anything more powerful would be wasted on me. I finally understand the ease of acceleration that comes with turbos; 195 or so torques available from 1100 rpm at least per automobile-catalog dot com.
Things that make me go “meh”:
– Supercars. I don’t have the time or money to take my cars to the track. I buy cars to drive on the street. There are no circumstances under which you can use performance better than about a 14-second quarter mile or a 110 mph top speed responsibly on U.S. public roads.
– Mega-power versions of regular cars (Hellcat, GT500, etc.) See above. The fastest performance car that actually makes me interested is a Boxster GTS 4.0, and I’d be fine with the regular Boxster S if it had six cylinders.
– Anything with four cylinders and no electric motors. The only cars that interest me at this point either have at least some level of electric propulsion or five or more cylinders. Fours perform fine these days. I just don’t like the sound they make.
– Burnouts and drifting. Burnouts are stupid. Drfting requires skill, at least, but I still can’t get excited about it. If I’m going to watch people drive fast I’d rather watch them drive fast, as in road racing—or, better yet, rallying on public courses. Being sideways is not inherently interesting. It’s only interesting if it helps you race faster.
– Making off-road vehicles or pickups taller. I just want everyone’s bumpers and lights to be at roughly the same height.
Forgot one important thing: diesel in any car, or any truck with a GCWR under 20,000 pounds. The emissions are most likely fraudulent (and, in the real world, stinky), the refinement is still pretty bad, and (most importantly) the engines are Rube Goldberg machines that in no way should be expected to be reliable.
I’m excited about the Maverick because of one, it’s a small truck and two, because of price. Trucks have become too large and way too expensive all to gouge the consumer. Manufacturers make vehicles so the consumer think they need these expensive giants.
Anything CUV or car-based SUV and anything ‘infotainment.’ Basically nothing interests me past model year 2003