Despite most automakers proudly proclaiming their intention to shift toward EV-dominant portfolios, customers haven’t been sharing their enthusiasm. While there’s a subset of loyal early adopters that are eager to see electrification become the norm, the relative infancy of the technology and prevalent gaps in the charging infrastructure has kept them from becoming a majority. But manufacturers seem to think it’s just a matter of time and that they’ll be able to make up the difference through fleet sales.
Advertised with lower than average operating costs and juicy subsidies being offered throughout the developed world, automakers have convinced themselves that EVs will soon become the de facto rides for various entities needing to round out their stables. Meanwhile, we’re hearing inklings that Ford is seeing pushback from fleet customers over its s new F-150 Lightning pickup and E-Transit van.
Blue Oval believes that its new vehicles, combined with an updated version of its fleet management suite prioritizing telematics and data accumulation, will result in a glut of customers interested in having more direct control over their commercial armadas. The fact that they’ll also be EVs is supposed to make them further appetizing, due to government incentives and the fact that they won’t require fueling.
“[The Lightning and E-Transit] are targeted at real people doing real work,” Ted Cannis, chief executive of Ford Pro, stated at Reuters’ recent Automotive Summit.
From Reuters:
But some of those potential fleet buyers are taking a “wait and see” attitude, partly from a lack of experience with electric vehicles and partly from a lack of clarity on government policy and regulations around EVs.
Those are not insurmountable obstacles over the longer term, according to Cannis, who told Reuters:
“In the U.S., we see 70 [percent] of the full-size bus and van industry going electric by 2030. That’s more than 300,000 vehicles annually. And we expect a third of the full-size pickup (market) to go all-electric by 2030, which is more than 800,000 vehicles annually.”
With electric work trucks and vans, Cannis said, fleet customers can save money on fuel, maintenance and repairs, “but there is still a fear of the unknown” about EVs among both employees and managers.
Perhaps by 2030, the necessary infrastructure will be in place to facilitate widespread EV adoption and they’ll have reached financial parity with internal combustion vehicles. But electrics currently require more advanced planning to get the most out of their powertrains and you have to pay more for them upfront to save money over time. Some of the fleet managers we’ve spoken to said they’ve had difficulties figuring out how to make EVs work for their businesses. Concerns have also been expressed about their lackluster resale values, the potential for charging downtime, and how much money would need to be spent to replace a battery system. Though the latter issue isn’t likely to come up considering how short most fleet cycles happen to be.
On the other hand, managers were almost universally interested in the government incentives being promoted by the Biden administration and wondered if the changing regulatory landscape might make soon make EVs a necessary addition to their garages. Governor Gavin Newsom has repeatedly said that California will gradually phase out internal combustion vehicles and may even begin prohibiting diesel trucks from utilizing certain roadways in a bid to reduce pollution. Many other states are politically aligned with California and are likely to follow its lead. These are considerations business owners are preoccupied with. But there’s no concrete legislation at play to make any of the above a guarantee and the free market (or what’s left of it) isn’t quite ready to place EVs on a pedestal.
Cannis seems undaunted, however. He’s claiming that everyone who has driven the all-electric F-Series believes it to be the most exciting full-sized pickup Ford has produced, pointing to the 150,000 preorders as evidence.
It’s actually more than the automaker can realistically manufacture. In August, Blue Oval doubled its production target to 80,000 Lightings annually as a way to meet demand. But that capacity isn’t supposed to be achieved until 2024 and the model launches in 2022. Frankly, with the pickup obviously exceeding projections before anyone has had an opportunity to really shake one down (Ford has allowed a few high-profile influencers and Joe Biden to drive the prototype), it’s strange that the head of Ford’s commercial fleet division would even bother to mention that the company has been getting pushback from customers.
Our guess is that certain types of businesses just don’t see EVs as feasible right now. We noticed receptiveness varied heavily based upon what kind of work fleet managers needed vehicles to do. Localized fleets focused on precise routes with predictable downtimes are ideal for electrification. But long-haulers taking varied routes have less use for EVs and far fewer options to realistically choose from.
The U.S. government has also faced difficulties meeting the Biden administration’s ambitious goal to electrify the entire federal fleet. For starters, many government rides (particularly those used by the USPS) boast some of the longest lifespans of any fleet vehicles you’re likely to encounter. That adds meaningful financial risks if they select the wrong product just to spur on EV adoption.
The current federal fleet encompasses about 657,000 vehicles in total. However, agencies had only purchased about 500 zero-emissions vehicles through August of 2021, and data from the General Services Administration (GSA) currently cites EVs as comprising less than 1 percent of the whole. The transition has progressed slowly, with officials citing supply issues and difficulties choosing the right vehicles for various departments as the biggest obstacles.
“The opportunities are clear, but first we need to acknowledge that we are starting from a low baseline,” White House national climate adviser Gina McCarthy said during June’s GSA FedFleet Conference. “I want to thank the thousands of fleet management professionals leading this charge and demonstrating our leadership and commitment to winning the future. The many agencies that will work together to achieve our goals exemplify the whole-of-government approach to tackling the climate crisis.”
With the sheer amount of marketing materials out there promoting electrification and encouraging businesses to establish EV-focused fleets, it’s often difficult to get a genuine sense of how things are actually progressing. Ford says the Lightning is already exceeding expectations. But the head of Ford Pro said customers were expressing hesitancy. The federal government is dead set on replacing combustion vehicles with EVs. But it has failed to put more than 500 units onto the road. Manufacturers are promoting electric cars at every turn. But pure electrics still make up a minuscule share of what’s actually being sold to customers.
It hasn’t done much to assuage my skepticism going into 2022. But 2030 should provide plug-ins with sufficient time to continue maturing. Considering how much better EVs have gotten over the last decade, future EVs should be capable of handling new challenges and giving internal combustion cars a run for their money. Or they could fail to see the necessary infrastructure and technology develop and end up like autonomous driving — another unfulfilled industrial promise.
[Images: Ford Motor Co.]
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I still love the idea of 100% torque at 0 RPM but, with only 144,000 Kms on my 2010 F-150, I won’t be in the market for at least another decade.
I have 238,000 on my 2010. That model year statistically was one of the most reliable trucks Ford has made. I’ve had minimal issues. A T-case solenoid on warranty, front axle seals, a broken wire in left rear door, and one coil pack. The rest have been wear parts like tires, brakes, shocks.
OK how much is this incentivizing and other irrational crap going to cost me? I rarely go to highly populated areas, focus on them, fleets, government and otherwise, leave me alone.
Stop me at the city limits, shoot me if I defy.
The rest of us will join in when it makes sense, save the sky and whatnot, we promise.
Do whatever you want – it’s all happening regardless.
actually it’s not
there isn’t the electricity or the capacity to expand battery production due to shortage of rare earth components
That will be bad news for the secret agents in black helicopters that are circling your compound waiting to force you to buy an EV at gunpoint that I’m sure must exist.
It’s not agents in black helicopters trying to force me to buy myself an EV. It is Politicians trying to utilize tax policy to force me to pay for a chunk of your shiny new EV that bothers me. You like em’, fine…buy one. Leave me out of it.
Blue States are already refusing to register vehicles past a certain age and have dates where EV vehicles are required.
That is how it happens. It’s just like how 100 watt bulbs suddenly went away for those horrible, twisty, mercury filled, CFL’s. We have lived through this already and are just hoping for the equivalent of LED’s to replace the battery dream with a working reality. Capacitors for quick charging and Nuke Plants Everywhere! for a strong electrical grid might do it.
It’s not like the ICE exhaust forces any costs on other people, right? Oh. Yeah. You are full of exhaust. I forgot.
O5lgt you are speaking in shorthand that many won’t understand. The exhaust you speak of is CO2, which many consider the most harmless exhaust possible as it occurs naturally in vast quantity, there is a natural cycle for it, and it is essential for life. Talk to them about this but don’t talk down like a bully to them and it should be fine.
I’d say that all those pre-orders for the Lightning are from regular consumers, not fleets. Yeah, of course fleet managers are going to be hesitant about a new technology. It’ll take time to win them over. Not that big a deal I’d say.
Fleets will have them for a while before they hit showrooms, which gives Ford time to fix issues. Fleets don’t flood social media with complaints, they’ve got work to do.
Well said.
It will be urban fleets buying them. One reason fleets are adverse to change is they like consistency in parts and service. If they do their own servicing there’s extra costs in rotating to a different product. EV’s won’t need oil/filter servicing but there is the fear of the unfamiliar.
@DenverMike Sir, perhaps GM or Ford might -gasp- give away a few fleet vehicles. Have companies run them for a year or so and then give them more new ones and take the ones with a year of real world use back to the lab/test center/engineering facility. Stallantis will offer to Hellcat the office air handlers.
“give away a few fleet vehicles.”
That does happen. I saw a RCMP Nissan Altima roaming around and was told that it was a “demo” car. I can see urban police forces buying the Lightning.
Fleets are going to love the minimum downtime for service& repairs. For this alone, IC can in no way compete with electric.
Tell that to the owners of Mach-Escapes that have been told by Ford dealers that their vehicles can’t be fixed.
I’m sorry sir, it says right here in the service manual under the heading of “things which cannot be fixed”.
Competition and high price and/or shortage of gasoline will help fleet managers to figure out their next steps. Next step for administration should be coming up with plan of gradually reducing gasoline production and creating shortage which will nudge customers to adapt EV sooner than later.
“ Next step for administration should be coming up with plan of gradually reducing gasoline production and creating shortage which will nudge customers to adapt EV sooner than later.”
Last I checked, Biden was busy begging OPEC for more oil. Too bad he doesn’t have a neighbour dying to supply him with more fossil fuels, and even eager to build a system to easily supply his constituents. Oh wait…….
@deanst – right now everyone is begging oil producers for more fuel. It isn’t just a USA issue.
Why do you need to beg someone to sell you oil? It is a free market – just pay right price. People are still sitting at home, there should not be much demand for gasoline.
@deanst Sir, we also sent oil back to our polite neighbors to the north.
“For starters, many government rides (particularly those used by the USPS) boast some of the longest lifespans of any fleet vehicles you’re likely to encounter. That adds meaningful financial risks if they select the wrong product just to spur on EV adoption.”
That also offers meaningful savings if you adopt EVs. At an average of 6 mpg, it wouldn’t be hard to improve on the Post Office’s fuel economy. It’s not like the USPS is a model of efficiency today.
You know that dream you have where you forgot to do your homework?
I wonder if Bill Ford (“A lifelong environmentalist”) ever wakes up and realizes, “Oh crap! I forgot to green the company!”
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/people/william-clay-ford–jr-.html
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymake/Ford2021.shtml
(Maybe he was fly fishing.)
You are talking about America, which is of course, gong to be a decade or so behind advanced countries. and you’re talking Ford, arguably the laziest of companies transitioning to EVs – hardly a yardstick.
But regarding the free market – wanna free market? stop subsidizing oil and charge the real cost of gas. There will be a really fast transition. Nah – too free.
Yeah, rovers on Mars for 2 decades + now, probes in interstellar Space, a flyby of Pluto and dudes on the moon 50 years ago and of course being home to that company that is in fact driving the EV revolution but we aren’t really an advanced nation I suppose.
I know people like you prefer to portray us as a nation of beggars depending on soup kitchens.for survival, but in reality if you aren’t a lazy societal leech, you will typically do quite well here.
Well said Art!
Actually, the US is a conglomeration of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world economies. This is supported by facts.
Actually, unlike other advanced countries, the US is a conglomeration of 1st, 2nd and 3rd world people. This is supported by facts. Most European countries and Canada and Australia are whiter-than-white compared to the much more racially and ethnically diverse United States, whose population is 20% foreign-born.
“You are talking about America, which is of course, gong to be a decade or so behind advanced countries. ”
Hilarious that you equate the advancement of mediocre EVs as being advanced.
How can taking major steps backwards be advancing?
No worries with Biden saying he has no policy for oil prices to come down after he caused it to go up in first place, and soon looking at $5 a gallon of gas across the country, electric car sales will pick up some.
This is what happens when on first day you become president you stop pipelines. Then a week later a moratorium on new oil-and-gas leases on federal lands and waters. For example, interior department approved a mere 171 drilling permits on federal lands in August, down 75% from April. That’s not all folks
Biden Administration also moved to suspend existing leases in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, and it initiated a fresh review of Alaska’s National Petroleum Reserve that could put it off limits as well. Get it—a “petroleum reserve” will be off limits for petroleum.
Then he signed a congressional resolution about methane gas that Trump has taken off.He will replace it with more expensive regulations on fracking.
Biden is also unleashing financial regulators against the industry. The Federal Reserve is looking to impose new rules on “climate-related financial risk,” as a May order from Mr. Biden put it. The purpose is to close off sources of funding and raise the cost of capital for the industry, and it’s succeeding.
Fossil fuel is the new tobacco for Biden and his ultra liberal radicals.
So now he begs Saudi Arabia for oil increase and says he has no idea how to stop oil price to come down.
Yeahhhh right. just reverse your ultra radical liberal policies.
PMIRP1
Potato Head – strike that – I mean president obama is doing it all on purpose. Add in;
– The horror of Afghan exit and gifting them 85 Billion in military equipment (more than what we ve given israel since 1947)
– The Border – just like before trump – open.
– Wild spending.
– No respect from China. They laugh at us. After the Winter Olympics and 1 year before Potato head can be voted out of office, they will take Taiwan. Chaos and market collapse after that.
The demon cat / communists want to destroy the country. Then they can rebuild it all with them in complete control of everything.
– But at least they got rid of trump. Can you believe he once tweeted “Dr fauci throws a baseball like a girl.” I m glad we dont have that anymore.
So much that’s silly and just plain incorrect here, starting with the idea that the president can do dick about gas prices, which is pure, unadulterated nonsense.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2021/09/26/revisiting-the-blame-for-high-gas-prices/?sh=f4a8a94e31e9
Not worth my time to even get into it all.
I’ll just let you two enjoy each other in your Breitbart Fantasy Room. Be sure to put the “do not disturb” sign on the door.
@freedMike – Yeah. Myopic. It’s a global problem. Big oil producers like OPEC’kers and Russia are deliberately being sluggish to increase production to drive up prices. Others are enjoying the same profits but it takes time to ramp up.
Killing an unfinished pipeline had no effect on prices.
The Keystone Pipeline decision may not be impacting current prices but I do think it is worth debating the wisdom of policies that restrict future domestic fossil fuel production and refining. The Forbes article you cited *does* say Biden’s moves could worsen future supply issues and lead to higher prices. Is it worth it to apparently be at the mercy of OPEC or Russia?
I know the plan from the Democrats is to shift hard to renewables and BEVs but you shouldn’t go out buying smaller jeans until you’ve lost the weight. High consumer energy prices and “stick” policies just make it more likely you end up with zombie Calvin Coolidge as president at some point between now and 2030 and that administration will be spending $0 on renewables.
Keystone wasn’t one decision this January that wouldn’t have affected production nor prices 6 months later. Keystone was 10 years of decisions as the the political winds blew the greenbeans in and out of power and that constant of capricious unpredictability has undercut the entire domestic energy industry (and pretty well every other besides) for decades. Lost production, short supply, and high prices aren’t a hypothetical future. They’re today and the Democrats own them.
Better to send that money to OPEC. Americans and Canadians are too white.
FreedMike,
If you don’t have a point, don’t comment. I listed you items one by one, you say I am wrong and put some link in your reply as though people should go read a article from link. Right…
Lou_BC, America was the biggest oil producer in the world and had OPEC and Russia forced to comply with lower prices pre-pandemic. Because of pandemic, oil production was reduced. There was no reason it could not be again increased except for all of Biden’s actions I listed. But yeah, simply agree with broken FreedMike link. Perhaps you should stick to things you know better, like union support and dirty taxi group support against free people of British Colombia’s wishes in support of Uber and Lyft.
The gift of military expenditures was to the manufacturers the Afghans were merely the outlet.
“No worries with Biden saying he has no policy for oil prices to come down after he caused it to go up in first place, and soon looking at $5 a gallon of gas across the country, electric car sales will pick up some.”
Exactly right. It’s all by design. We had energy independence under the last (and true) president. We had pipelines that were going to keep gas prices low.
The Alzheimer in Chief (who says he was vice president for 36 years now) cancelled all of that for reasons that are yet to be known.
Except we do know them, he wats to make it so financially burdensome to simply own a car that people just give up. When you have to choose between gas and food, you cut gas.
Funny, those energy Independence plans that the orange Insurrectionist King took credit for were largely put in place by his predecessor.
Right……
Because in todays world of fake news and misinformation, anything good that happens under the (phenomenal Trump administration) wasn’t the result of his policies. It was Obama or unicorns, or magical fairy dust.
Conversely, anything bad that happens under the installed “Let’s go Brandon” administration (which is, quite literally, everything) is only the fault of the Trump administration.
The high gas prices = Trumps fault (despite having very low prices his entire presidency)
The rapidly increasing inflation rate = Trumps fault (despite it not being a problem during his entire presidency)
The massive crisis at the southern border = Trumps fault (despite the border being far more secure during his presidency). And let’s ignore the fact that Biden is implementing Trump era policies surrounding the border (stay in Mexico).
Covid deaths higher in 2021 vs 2020 = Trumps fault despite Brandon saying he was going to crush it, the presence of vaccines, etc.
Yes, we were the world’s largest oil producing country in 2020. That’s a fact. However Russia has twice the oil reserves we do and Saudi Arabia has four times the oil reserves we do. Go ahead, beat your chests, shout “freedom” all you want. We’ll run out of oil before the Russians and the Saudis do. Oil Crisis 2.0 anybody? We also export oil to other countries. I’m not quite sure why export oil to Canada and Mexico, countries with robust oil industries but we do. Who was U.S. Big Oil number three customer? China. Yep those guys; just a little more of our two countries economies intertwining. There is this magical place near Battery Park in New York City called the New York Mercantile Exchange. Crude oil futures are traded there and WORLD prices are established. Yeah, a bunch of guys running around in butt-ugly smock, so there suit jackets don’t get trashed, establish crude oil prices. Gone are the days when the Texas Railroad commission set the price for West Texas Sweet Crude. Oh the Texas Railroad Commission used to regulate how much crude was produced. Then one day in the 1970s they more or less said, “open all the taps, drill all the wells, let it flow wild”. So no, The President of the United States does not set oil prices. Frackers don’t set crude oil prices, they just react to them. Oil goes up so much, they start fracking; oil goes down so much they stop fracking. In the end; EVs are part of the solution, so is renewable energy, and biofuel. CAFE standards for vehicles and more efficient hvac systems will help too. I don’t see why 70% of the GSA fleet can’t go EV in five years, why solar panels can’t be put on the roofs of federally owned buildings, and sweet jeebus why is my office always freezing? In the end, we need to determine a way NOT to import more oil from nasty places and still keep our reserves.
el scotto, this winter as you pay more for gas to heat your rooms, go scream support for wind mills and solar panels. This winter as price of gasoline comes to 5 dollars a gallon, go scream support for non existent EV vehicles and non existent EV infrastructure.
Some of my employees in Louisiana hurt by that last hurricane gassed up their car and drove to Mobile Alabama while power companies got power back (took about two weeks). You think they could have escaped Louisiana when there was no power anywhere after hurricane in their electric vehicles?
I am not an expert in commodities market. But, we trade commodities irrespective of borders. Oil is an international commodity. It is therefore traded internationally. We controlled the price of oil based on supply and demand, and based on expectations that between our three great northern American countries and allowing pipelines to criss cross borders supply would increase. Yet… Biden stopped all of that as I said day 1. Because environmental rights and some Indian reservation nonsense rights.
As for why oil goes cross border (again I am no expert) but I assume it is because of refining capacities and grade of oil. So oil is shipped via pipelines (hopefully) to where we have refining capacity, because if you have ever seen those refineries, you know they are very expensive to build, and so we leverage where we have existing capacity between our countries.
Yes oil is even shipped overseas. In fact I was reading this morning on WSJ there will also be a propane shortage because other countries want our propane so homes that are heated by propane in America are going to feel it this winter in pocketbooks. Again it is called free market. We sell to highest bidders. No different than gold or diamond or other natural resources. It is an international market.
The way to control price, is increase capacity yet Biden has stopped the growth.
And trust me, I know form my wife (she is from Odessa) and her relatives in Texas, they have no intention of opening the fracking taps more than gradual expansion unless Biden changes his tune. He is the problem. They need to be assured. We have plenty of oil between our three countries to last us for generations. But Biden and greenies are the problem.
“The way to control price, is increase capacity yet Biden has stopped the growth.”
Right, because Biden wants higher gas prices – they’ll do wonders for his approval ratings and help his party greatly.
Derpity-derp…makes total sense.
But back to reality. First, Biden doesn’t control oil production or prices. Second, we’re pumping more oil domestically and importing more since he took office.
US crude oil production:
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS1&f=M
US oil imports:
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUS1&f=M
So if oil supplies are up, why are gas prices up? Here’s your culprit:
https://fortune.com/2021/10/11/gas-prices-triple-crude-oil-above-80-supply-shortage-4-dollars-per-gallon/
Demand for oil is up and supply is constricted worldwide. But I’m sure Tucker Carlson has a different story…
“Right, because Biden wants higher gas prices – they’ll do wonders for his approval ratings and help his party greatly.
Derpity-derp…makes total sense.”
You think the people running this clown show of an administration give a damn about Brandon’s approval ratings? Everything he’s done (or not done) has resulted in his approval ratings dropping. His approval ratings have dropped faster than any other President in modern history.
Of course that wind bag who can’t walk up a flight of stairs and claims to have been Vice President for 36 years wants higher gas prices. It helps their green agenda (which has nothing to with the environment or being green).
Our gas prices are a direct result of his policy to cancel the infrastructure projects we need. Why? Because he’s an idiot and also riddled with Alzheimer’s.
“What am I doing here?” Joe Brandon at a CNN town hall. Probably the most accurate question he’s asked in his entire political career.
The fact you are so blind is staggering. #FJB
I kind of felt bad for Brandon since I felt he was ambivalent about the whole thing and was more or less coerced despite declining faculties. Now…
But you’re right though, they don’t care about the citizen’s approval in the least. Getting harder for the propaganda ministry though to keep a straight face, and real approval at best is 25-35%, I expect it to dip to 20-30% soon. What’s really going to be interesting is when that 20-35% of semi-lucid and semi-conscious start giving the thumbs down really exposing the true lunatics who can no longer defend their mental illness.
“Russia has twice the oil reserves we do and Saudi Arabia has four times the oil reserves we do”
That is very true. There is a thing known as “strategic oil reserve”. If the USA quite literally burns through all of its own oil reserves so old fart whiners can have cheap gas then it is militarily at mercy of other countries. China could generate enough oil to be self sufficient but they do not. Ask yourself why?
“Indian reservation nonsense rights.”
I’m betting that you’d howl like crazy if the USA government allowed a road or pipeline to be built through your property without proper compensation.
“We have plenty of oil between our three countries to last us for generations.”
A generation lasts roughly 25 years. At the current rate of consumption the USA will run out of oil by 2060. That’s less that 2 generations away.
How about doing some logical research and letting the facts speak for themselves as opposed to filtering everything through a selfish myopic and political lense.
Since when do the people who manufacture the votes, count the votes, and then announce the result of the votes give a damn about popularity?
Brandon doesn’t even know where he is but the machine that put him there sure as chit does.
And those ultra-liberal radicals will be the only ones with ICE.
When “The Beast” goes successfully all electric, I might listen.
They actually discussed making “The Beast” all electric back in May. The White House even claimed it was a priority of the administration to show how serious it was about converting the entire federal fleet to EVs.
It has yet to happen and, based one the insane weight the armored limo carries around, I don’t think it’s going to anytime soon.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2021/05/fisker-to-build-electric-popemobile-white-house-wants-beast-ev/
Thank goodness the highways are flooded with EV Semis…. Oh wait.
EV semis require batteries with at least 300+ Wh/kg density. For a lot of reasons. Those batteries are still in the pilot production stage. When they are in mass production, then you’ll see semis on the road. Until then, they’ll be scarce or non-existent. Even once the semis are in production, they’ll be scarce because of low production rates.
I read about a local company starting to install systems that allow trucks to run on a blend of diesel and hydrogen. There’s another local company that makes chemicals for the pulp mills. Hydrogen is a waste byproduct. They plan on increasing production to sell for commercial use. A win/win.
My company fully switched over to Windows 10 at the beginning of last year. Of course companies will be cautious in moving over to a brand-new product like this. They’ll wait to see if there are any kinks, and move if and when they are comfortable.
The conservative customers of pickup trucks are the least likely people to buy EVs.
I used to live in an EXTREMELY conservative area of town – think 80% registered Republican – and Teslas were thick on the ground down there.
The “EVs are only for tree huggers” line is nonsense.
Gotta hug something when all the trees are gone ;)
@akear Sir, pickup trucks are perceived as durable vehicles. Conservative people buy goods that last. I’m not sure about pure EV’s but hybrids have a huge, huge following with STEM crowd. Some of the Stemmies went from the -reviled on TTAC- Prius to the -even more reviled on TTAC- Tesla. Show them the overall cost of ownership will be lower and they’ll buy them. Oh, there have been days I’d have killed for a plug-in in my truck bed.
Matt Posky isn’t an EV fan. Got it. Yawn.
He and the vast majority of reasonable and responsible people.
I am unreasonable and irresponsible. My Porter-Cable 737 corded “Tiger Saw” reciprocating saw draws a nominal 11.5 amps (likely more at startup or under load).
The other day I used it to make two axial cuts in each of the front hubs of my car (we destroy the hubs but are able to get them out of the way to pull the bearings; saving the knuckle – and we can do it all ‘on’ the vehicle).
[Significantly cheaper than buying ‘loaded’ knuckles with the bearings and hubs installed, and we can choose better bearings than what comes with the loaded knuckles. How do I know this? Because I got ‘loaded’ knuckles first and promptly destroyed the new bearings by overtorquing them – because I am unreasonable and irresponsible (automotive education is not free).]
Anyway, it was four fairly large cuts in better than average steel. My *cordless* reciprocating saw would not have been the right tool for the job (the corded 737 was getting noticeably warm).
Because I am unreasonable and irresponsible, I would *love* to be able to plug high-current power tools into a vehicle, instead of a wall outlet. (Not everything that breaks in life is close to a power outlet.)
@ToolGuy I (or we) need a good electrical engineer. Imagine an EV truck with four 110 Volt outlets and and 50 AMP wiring for a welder. It’d be a work truck; drive it back to the shop or your house each night and recharge.
“Because I am unreasonable and irresponsible, I would *love* to be able to plug high-current power tools into a vehicle, instead of a wall outlet. (Not everything that breaks in life is close to a power outlet.)”
That makes zero sense.
That presumes that whatever is broken is closer to the bed of a fake pickup than a regular outlet. I find that hard to believe. Plus, 2-3′ of the cord will be along the bed and tailgate reducing the amount of “working cord” you have. Seems silly.
Flexy, on a farm almost nothing breaks in close vicinity to a wired power outlet. F-150’s, which you say don’t exist, have power outlets in the bed of the truck. On job sites I used to carry a generator to charge batteries and run power tools. Yeah, some plug-ins would’ve been real handy. As said, I’m waiting for an EV that can handle a welding rig. Or a plasma cutter, they’re real handy. Who knows? Stellantis might figure that out some day. Marconi was real good with radios; perhaps the Dutch will make little windmills a renewable energy devices on all their products.
Scotty I get it. But that’s a very specific case.
Plus a gas powered generator is a much better option as it has a far greater range of uses over an outlet in the bed of a pickup.
“Plus a gas powered generator is a much better option as it has a far greater range of uses over an outlet in the bed of a pickup.”
I have a gas-powered generator (3250 watts, not huge). I very rarely use it to power tools and here is why:
– It is heavy and unwieldy
– Some of the ICE components don’t age well (ex. haul it out and realize we need to address a fuel leak before we get on with our day)
– Not pure sine wave, which some tools might not be thrilled about
– The hot exhaust is a danger to property (ex. bed of my truck, you have to watch the ‘orientation’ unless you haul the thing back out and run it on the ground) and person (nuisance burns)
– It is noisy
– It is stinky (and unkind to lungs)
– It runs constantly, while my tool use might be very intermittent (for my ‘typical’ use case) [if I had a ‘typical’ case; some of my cases are ‘silly’ and make ‘zero sense’ – except to the customer and me]
Generator sizing is a huge issue – I would *never* take the 3250 camping, for example (way oversize), and some tools would need a much larger generator. Whatever size we pick is a compromise.
I can’t use the generator indoors (think of trade show set-up in a convention hall for example).
I can’t use my generator on a film set. [Take a look sometime at the generators they *do* use for film production.]
My MIG welder [technically GMAW; fun fact: the 25% carbon dioxide commonly used for “Metal Inert Gas” welding isn’t “inert” – it is ‘active’ or ‘semi-inert’ if you insist] is 115V 20A. I would be *thrilled* if I could run that from my truck.
“Matt Posky isn’t an EV fan. Got it. Yawn.”
Depends on the application. Work in the city and want one of those juiced up trucks for your tools? Live somewhere where EV charging is easy and you never venture more than 50 miles from home? Buy an EV.
Live in the boonies, like to take a lot of long-distance road trips, or prefer to DIY the work on your vehicle? Don’t buy and EV.
The only thing I am staunchly against is circumventing the free marking to forces something down the collective throat. We’re planning the EV roadmap in a shortsighted way that’s going to come back to bite us. Let consumers adopt the technology as it matures.
I’m an EV fan, big time, just not a battery fan. They are complex, temperature sensitive, and can’t handle deep cycle usage that is needed for heavy use except as a short term stunt. Show up with a storage system that works and we’ll ALL be fans! Who doesn’t want there car sounding like the Enterprise engaging warp drive when you hit the loud peddle?
And shouldn’t EV fans be driving to treble generating capacity right now so we can power them?
I think Ford thought they could circumvent the political leanings of “Flyover America” by keeping the EV conversation fully about capability and not about ecology. I think The Press As A Whole believed that, too– I know I did. My most recent conversations with some dealers in Virginia and Pennsylvania have shown me that this is not the case.
Car dealers tend to be a politically conservative bunch, so I suspect they might be caught up in the “EVs are for virtue-signaling” stuff that’s typical around here.
In the end, though, if there’s a buck to be made from anything, these guys will figure it out.
I’m in a centre of rural conservative North Central BC. The local Ford dealer has zero problem selling Mach E’s. I drive by the Ford lot several times a week and it’s obvious to see what’s moving. I’m not sure how Lightning’s will do. Probably not as well due to travel distances. I see quite a few Tesla’s.
@Lou
I hope then Ford sends some of the excess supply north of the border.
@28-Cars-Later – we aren’t talking the same volumes a hugh dealership might have. The dealers in my town will typically have well over 100 pickups on the lot. Maybe 20 – 30 SUV’s of various models and a few cars. I’ll drive by and see 2 – 4 Mach E’s on the lot and and a few weeks later I’ll drive by and they are gone. The local Ford dealer seems to have the best luck when it comes to inventory.
Car dealers also rely heavily on maintenance revenue from servicing ICE cars. EV cars require far less service. Dealers not wanting to sell EVs has been a significant issue for the OEMs to date.
“Car dealers tend to be a politically conservative bunch”
I think they kind of want product that they can actually sell as well.
I think they’ll like EV pickups, SUVS and commercial vehicles quite a bit. The rest? We’ll see. I think that the aforementioned stuff needs to be a hit before the tech trickles down to the cheaper, smaller vehicles.
Very possible but we just don’t know yet. Everything not from Tesla has been lot poison to this point.
EVs becoming a normie culture war battleground will be bad for everyone so I’m sure it will happen.
Waiting with baited breath for the “failed coal-rolling on Model S Plaid” videos.
Going to be interesting to see what happens when small contractors figure out that this truck can seriously power their tools all day long.
For sure! And then they can just leave it on site because they don’t have enough electricity to get home or to a charger. How great is that!
You seem to think everybody is brainless.
You have some personal skin in the IC engine game?
“You seem to think everybody is brainless.
You have some personal skin in the IC engine game?”
Everyone blindly drooling over these mediocre EVs certainly are brainless. What kind of person lusts over a very dirty form of transportation that is many orders of magnitude behind ICE vehicles?
The amount of energy required to propel a massive iron pickup truck 2 or 3 miles is more than enough to run tools all day. Besides, the truck will not allow the user to drain the battery. Even this truck is smarter than you are. Did you get a leaded brain while siphoning gas as a kid?
“Besides, the truck will not allow the user to drain the battery. Even this truck is smarter than you are.”
This truck is not smart. Ford engineers are not that smart.
“…exemplify the whole-of-government approach to tackling the climate crisis…”
Climate crisis? Give me an f’ing break.
The Left is hell bent on solving imaginary problems like cops killing POCs, systemic racism, and climate change. Meanwhile, real problems like homelessness, drug overdoses and migrants overwhelming the southern border go unmentioned and unaddressed. Welcome to Clown World.
You mean to say companies arent keen on replacing their work vehicles with new vehicles that take hours to refuel, and have half the range in cold weather?
What could possibly be their reason for this? Im stumped.
@Eaststand:
“new vehicles that take hours to refuel,”
Not a problem when the vehicle is sitting parked for 12 hours overnight and the recharge time is 3 hours on a level 2 charger.
“and have half the range in cold weather?”
I’ve only seen 50% loss on an air-cooled battery EV at -5 degrees F. With a modern liquid thermal management, the temperature of the battery is heated using cabin heat, motor heat, and a heat pump so the loss is less. The country where EVs are most popular is orway and it’s definitely not a tropical paradise.
Maintenance can be cheap. I drove an EV 100k miles and it only needed a set of tires, a 12v battery replacement, windshield washer fluid, and wipers. I think that was it.
Sure, EVs might not work in every commercial application, but they do work in plenty of situations.
until electric vehicles offer an advantage to IC, no ones buying these novelties en masse.
There has to be literally no drawbacks, only an upgrade on IC. Its just the way it is, you dont see Samsung going “hi guys, heres our new product, its significantly worse than the previous one, but you should buy it anyway”, do you.
Theres a reason serious car makers like toyota are committed to making normal cars for the foreseeable future, they know everyones not buying this fledgling tech that offers nothing to the buyer aside from being smug that instead of polluting the world with gases, they pollute the world by encouraging mining lithium.
“until electric vehicles offer an advantage to IC,”
They do. instant toque. They’re quieter and smoother. Far better acceleration. You can also fuel it at home without going to a gas station.
“no ones buying these novelties en masse.”
One manufacturer alone managed to sell 240,000 EVs. That’s en masse. Well over a million on the road
“There has to be literally no drawbacks,”
Lots of drawbacks to ICEs and people still buy them.
“Theres a reason serious car makers like toyota are committed to making normal cars for the foreseeable future,”
Toyota is introducing 15 BEVs by 2025. One of them will be on sale this summer. They also lead in the number of solid-state battery patents. Over 1000.
“they know everyones not buying this fledgling tech that offers nothing to the buyer ” Toyota not selling fledgling tech that offers nothing to the buyer? Ever heard of the Mirai?
Lithium extraction is massively cleaner than oil drilling and fracking. Haven’t heard of any lithium slicks washing up on beaches recently. Maybe I missed that. If you don’t like lithium, go to CATL’s sodium-ion batteries.
Fleet use is probably best suited to deal with the shortcomings of recharge times – they typically go to the same garage or lot every night. So charging issues are non issues for your typical municipal fleet. NYC is going full steam ahead with electric vehicles. So far, the data suggests that total cost of operation on the electrics is well ahead of the ICE vehicles that they are replacing. YMMV
Blue States are already refusing to register vehicles past a certain age and have dates where EV vehicles are required.
That is how it happens. It’s just like how 100 watt bulbs suddenly went away for those horrible, twisty, mercury filled, CFL’s. We have lived through this already and are just hoping for the equivalent of LED’s to replace the battery dream with a working reality. Capacitors for quick charging and Nuke Plants Everywhere! for a strong electrical grid might do it.
There is a word for that.
There’s a solution, too, albeit a rather nasty one.
Sure as hell doesn’t involve “voting.”
There are some who posit they will keep increasing the boot-on-face actions until such an event occurs (though I argue that event will be faked in order to draw out loyal Americans). When that event occurs, in comes the NKVD troops though the ammunition won’t be made of rubber. If they learn from history, those troops won’t be Americans or at least ethnic Americans. I argued in 2014/15 the swarms of illegals being sent from nowhere were to form the backbone of a fifth column irregular army to be deployed around 2024/25 after the last elected president had stepped down and was replaced by the dictatorship we now see. The fact they sped up the timeline four years -when they would have won legitimately in 2024- doesn’t bode well IMO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Troops
@28,
I was about to post a snarky comment about ‘why do I feel an A-Team montage coming up’ but at that very moment a large (tandem rotor) military helicopter made a low slow pass over my home. [Not even kidding.]
https://youtu.be/H7zc1iySY1I
@ToolGuy
Yikes.
Good point, C5. You definitely shouldn’t vote.
As evidenced by your snark, Astig, we’ve reached the point when more direct and lasting measures are probably necessary.
Oh but they made it so easy now, you can just mail it in.
Vote early and vote often!
Alas, one cannot simply “vote out” infestation.
That’s a lot of miles on a 2010 you more than got your money’s worth and you will likely go even a lot more.