As a lifelong Snow Belter, I’ve long considered myself a fairly good snow driver – and I’ve long understood the need for winter tires, even over all-seasons in some cases. A recent trip to the ski town of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, courtesy of Bridgestone, confirmed some of what I already knew – and taught me some new things in the process.
For example, one can be a pretty good snow driver, and yet be pretty far from excellent. More on that in a bit.
(Full disclosure: Bridgestone paid for my flight, lodging, and meals. The company offered a very nice winter coat that I declined. This event is completely separate from the tire giveaway we did in January, though some of the same people from both Bridgestone and TTAC worked on both projects.)
Bridgestone has a winter-driving school set up just outside of Steamboat Springs, and you, too, can attend, if you can swing the tuition (airfare and lodging not included). You must, of course, attend during the winter months, for obvious reasons. During the summer, the test track turns into farmland.
Pricing, if you are wondering, starts around $300.
Normally Bridgestone uses Toyotas to train customers – from novice to expert, from Sun Belt resident to Steamboat ski bunny – on how best to drive on ice and snow. Corollas, Camrys, and 4Runners, I was told. For this week, though, we’d be hopping into Acura MDXs and NSXs. Yes, you read that right. Six-figure sports cars with all-wheel drive.
We ran through several exercises in car control. There was a skidpad, to help us play with under- and oversteer. We did a lane-change exercise, and also an exercise that helped us focus on braking in a straight line, before turning, so that we could corner without the brakes or throttle engaged (we’ll get into the “why” further down in this piece).
We also “hot lapped” an 11-turn track (that included part of the skidpad) that had a surface of snow and ice – and hard-packed snowbanks serving as the barrier walls. Goal number one – don’t tag a snowbank.
Thankfully, I did not, though I came close once or twice. Nor did anyone else tag one, that I know of. Though an instructor spun an NSX during demo laps performed at the end of the day – laps that gave us a chance to ride right-seat and see how the pros handled the track.
The whole purpose of our playing in the snow was multi-fold: Improve car-control techniques and also compare all-season tires to winters. As well as see how proper footwear can help even a supercar in the snow. And, of course, all the rubber was from Bridgestone, so if the brand could convince us scribes that its tires are the best, well, so much the better for them.
I won’t go as far as to say that. Not only because we at TTAC are not shills (no matter how much of some of y’all think we are) but also because there was no competing brand on hand for comparison.
What I will say is this – even if you have years of experience driving in snow and think you handle it well, a school like this will help you. It doesn’t have to be Bridgestone’s school – a quick Google shows there are other winter-driving schools out there, including from the famed Skip Barber school. There’s one at the Road America racetrack in Wisconsin, as well. Similarly, I also walked away understanding that while all-season tires can get the job done, winter tires are probably going to be better.
No shit, Sherlock, I know. But it’s one thing to know something, and another to actually experience it.
The biggest thing that I learned when it comes to snow driving is something I already sort of knew but had never really articulated: Road conditions change constantly when there is snow or ice on them, and one must constantly adjust his or her driving line. I’ve done this for years, automatically, without realizing it, and it makes sense when you actually sit down and think it through.
When you get on a track and find that as the sun hits and the temperature changes, and as other cars traverse the ground before you do, the line changes. Completely. You need to change where you place the car, your speed, your braking points, maybe even the turn-in – everything.
I admit that I struggled with this a bit. I went out slow to get a feel for the track and got in a groove, and then things started going a bit sideways (mostly figuratively, a little bit literally). There were two reasons why my later laps weren’t as smooth as my earlier ones.
Reason number one is I got a bit overconfident and started driving faster. This may sound counterintuitive, but slowing down would have led to smoother laps – and if they’d have been timed, ones with faster times. Going too fast and/or braking too late led to slides, and while I was able to rein them in, slides still cost speed (and time). The penalty for going too fast on the straightaway – for those wondering, my drive partner and I saw speeds in the 50s, one journo claimed to hit 60 – was either a slide or a bad line or both through the next corner.
Indeed, the closest I came to stuffing a car occurred in the first turn after the main straight – arguably the easiest turn – because I came in a bit hot, braked late, and started to understeer. Eventually, I slowed enough that the rear end came around as I released the brakes.
Remember how I referenced the exercise that focused on braking before turning and being off the brakes while cornering (which we actually did near the day’s end)? It’s a reminder that asking the car to turn while under braking or throttle can end up asking too much of it. Yes, there are exceptions for trail-braking and for accelerating out of corners, but some of that stuff is best suited for dry pavement. Slick surfaces are different.
In this case, releasing the brakes helped the car turn. Indeed, at times, a judicious application of throttle could induce oversteer and help bring the car – these MDXs had Acura’s SH-AWD all-wheel-drive system – around.
The other thing that killed my lapping is that I let myself get locked into a mentality of trying to brake and turn-in at the same spot each lap. This is ideal on a dry track, but not in the snow and ice. Indeed, early on, I was doing fairly well as I moved the car over a foot or two to get more grip. But for whatever reason (probably just lack of familiarity with the track), I let myself lock in on certain markers for braking and turn in, staying with them even as the surface changed. This caused me to slide around more and to lose speed. Lesson learned – be flexible with car placement when driving on curvy roads covered in snow and ice. And slow down. And brake earlier.
The point of the previous few paragraphs isn’t to point out what I did or didn’t do well, but rather to show how doing X can lead to result Y. Slow down, adjust your line, brake earlier, be smooth on the controls and you’ll be a better winter driver, whether just commuting on a snow-covered back road or doing some winter racing on a closed course.
Drive like it’s dry, and you’ll be sliding – or worse.
Snow Tires Vs. All-Seasons
After lunch, I took the Acura NSX around with a right-side rider. Shod with Bridgestone Potenzas (RE980AS+, to be exact), the AWD NSX handled the snow just fine, and it was fun getting the rear end to step out into controlled slides with the right application of the throttle on corner exit.
Just a reminder – the NSX uses two electric motors at the front, motors that independently drive the left and right wheels, as part of its Super Handling All-Wheel Drive (SH-AWD) system.
It was pretty easy to drive the NSX in the snow – just brake at the right time, let off, turn in, then slowly get on the gas, and use a little extra throttle to summon oversteer if need be.
Fun, but not the instructive part of the day. What I found most useful was the comparison of MDXs shod with Alenza AS Ultras versus those shoed with Blizzak DM-V2s. It wasn’t hard to predict that the Blizzaks would offer a lot more grip, which resulted in shorter braking distances, easier cornering, and less sliding. Yet it was still illustrative to see the difference between true snow tires and all-seasons. The vehicles shed with the Alenzas were just more of a handful during braking and cornering, and there was a lot more sliding around.
Again, this isn’t to suggest the Bridgestone tires are better or worse than the competition – there was no competitive set on hand for comparison. I can’t tell you if the Blizzaks are better or worse than what Michelin or Goodyear offers. I can tell you that if you plan on driving on snowy surfaces a lot, you probably should consider investing in snows from someone. Though all-seasons will still be better than summers or three-seasons.
On the way home, I kept thinking about what I truly learned. I knew how understeer and oversteer worked already – I learned that before I ever drove a car. I already knew that asking your car to do 100 percent of any one thing at any one time – be it braking, turning, or accelerating – tends to lead to trouble. And I understood intuitively, even if I’d never thought too deeply about it before, that one must adjust for driving in the snow and ice.
I also knew a correctly timed gentle application of oversteer can sometimes help you get around a turn, and snow tires are better suited for this kind of surface than all-seasons.
Yet I still learned some things. Or, at least, I gained real-world experience that confirmed what I knew intellectually. It’s still instructive to spend time working on wheel placement/braking point/turn-in point in a controlled setting like this. It’s still instructive to actually see and feel the difference between snow tires and all-season rubber instead of looking at specs on a chart.
If you can, take a winter driving class, whether through Bridgestone or someone else. And if your commute and/or vehicle type demands you consider snow tires, definitely do so.
Playing in the snow is fun. Knowing how to keep safe when driving in it is even better.
[Images © 2022 Tim Healey/TTAC]
Become a TTAC insider. Get the latest news, features, TTAC takes, and everything else that gets to the truth about cars first by subscribing to our newsletter.
Is this an early draft of the article you plan to write?
Yes! The main themes are all in. Now he just has to figure out which exact message each theme carries, how they relate to one another, and above all, what the whole point is (“Framing” the article).
My takeway came fairly early (“all-season tires can get the job done”) and there was plenty of supporting evidence for that conclusion throughout.
Anecdotally, I don’t know anyone that runs winter tires. Those north of Nashville all buy AWD/4WD vehicles and use all-seasons year round.
I’m quite north of Nashville running all seasons without the precious AWD. Those people are pussies.
I have a set of winter tires for one of my cars (which is also AWD), but it is strictly for trips to or across the mountains—skiing, tubing, and winter road trips. Although we do get snow a couple of times a winter in the lowlands, if I didn’t go to the mountains, I could just keep the car parked when it’s snowy and save the money.
I always think people that say “pussy” are cool as ef. I also know it is literally impossible to make one’s point without indulging in casual misogyny, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a snowflake or worse, like a feminist or something.
I have winter tires for a couple of my cars because I have space for storage, live in a lake effect snow belt and it (usually) stays consistently cold enough that I’m not wrecking them by driving on 50 degree days in January.
That said, the “winter tires or you’re an moron” attitude of car blog commenters is pretty ridiculous and many people can get by just fine on all-seasons.
@jack: hear, hear.
Here’s how the AWD thing breaks out for me:
Cost of AWD: $1000 (typically)
Cost of good snow tires and an extra set of wheels: $1000 (typically)
(Whatever)
And either way, the real limiting factor here isn’t tires or AWD – it’s ground clearance. If you’re in a typical sedan, you’re pretty much limited to a foot or so of snow before you end up high centered (probably a bit more if you’re in a CUV), and if that happens, it won’t matter much if you’re running snow tires or AWD, or both.
Meanwhile, in typical winter conditions, you’re going to get better traction with AWD (I know, my last car had it), you’re not really spending any more money than you would have by getting snows, and you don’t have to deal with swapping out the tires twice a year, storing one set or another in your garage, etc. Meanwhile, if you’re running snows, and you get a stretch of nice weather – which typically does happen here in Denver during the winter – you’re stuck with the poorer-performing tires. It’s a pain.
I’d probably feel differently if I were running a RWD car.
So, yeah, unless I’m buying a Mustang, I’m opting for AWD and if it gets too s**tty to drive, I’m staying home. I guess that makes me a pussy.
AWD doesn’t do a bloody thing to help with braking — and it’s the stopping rather than the going that I’m most concerned about in winter driving, hence why when the cold weather rolls around I go with a dedicated winter tire over much poorer-performing no-season rubber.
“AWD doesn’t do a bloody thing to help with braking…”
That’s why you a) go slow and b) downshift to bleed off velocity before you use the brakes (paddle shifters work especially well for this). It’s worked for me since 1979.
Half worn all season tires don’t work very well on ice and snow. I used to have a Subaru Legacy wagon. With AWD, it could get up an ice covered hill but not if there was a couple inches of snow on top of the ice. The half worn tires didn’t provide enough traction to push the snow out of the way. It became sufficiently aggravating that I bought a set of off brand winter tires. What an improvement!
I had to leave a place with a down sloping driveway onto a road with a significant crown. The slope was steep enough that, with the half worn all seasons, I would slide down no matter what. The trick was to hit the road below the crown so that it would keep me from sliding all the way across. No such tricks were necessary with the winter tires. Leaving became a non-event because I had no problem stopping halfway down the driveway. On the way home, after the first snow storm with the winter tires, I came across a tow truck preparing to pull a 4WD pickup out of a ditch where its nose was up against a power pole.
Winter tires work better than all season tires especially once the temperature drops below 7C or 44F. The rubber compound stays more pliable.
I’ve made a point of running winter rated tires on my truck but run them all rear round. Duratrac’s worked very well on ice which was surprising considering the aggressive tread. Grabber AT2’s were winter rated but were almost as bad as my all season tires on icy roads. My current Yokohama Geolandar AT G015’s are really good on ice and are wearing reasonably well.
In the Northern Rockies, I’d say most run snows in winter. Studded vs non-, is the debate. Ditto (at least Western-) Canada and Alaska.
There are also two very distinct classes of winter tires: Continental and Nordic. Continentals make most sense if you also spend a lot of time in above freezing conditions. Nordics are grippier still, in true winter; but almost literally melt in any heat at higher speeds. Nordics also tend to have very restrictive speed ratings, while continentals are designed to haul down slushy Autobahns on the way to the alps.
If you’re in areas with any meaningful winter, I can’t see any reason not to fit continental snows on during winter months, and dedicated summer tires for the rest of the year. Instead of allseasons. Continental snows work well even on dry roads at high speeds.
If you’re in Jackson, WY, or the Yukon…..; nordics, studded or not, are just better for true, largely uninterrupted, winter driving. If you harbor any fantasies about flicking it in and getting through turns like a Finn, fit the biggest studs you are allowed….. (and still don’t do it on public roads unless you have a lookout….)
I live in the Sierra foothills and for me the roads are pretty well plowed in a couple of days and I have my driveway shoveled by then as well. Problem is trees shade the road and ice forms so most folks use studs. I have winter tires but I have to chain up to get across ice patches especially on the steeper parts of the road. Mostly I just stay home and use Instacart when I get low on beer.
I recently prepared a RWD car for sale and it needed tires.
Cheapest I could get were real snow tires. Given the RWD and
the amount of snow we are having in Colorado (and of course, the
budget price of the tires), I went with the snows (all four of them). It had beena LONG time since I had driven on real snow tires, and I was
very impressed. The debate as to whether or not to put two snow
tires on the front or the back was handled succinctly by my brother,
who said that if you can’t get going, it doesn’t matter how good
the car brakes or turns.
I tend to agree. I live in a hilly place, and grew up in an even hillier one. While sliding off the road is a real concern, the most common trouble with snow is getting stuck. Even in a FWD car, all-seasons don’t do a very good job of backing your car out of a downhill-sloping parking spot and over a 3″ snow speedbump that the plow has left. You can carry a shovel around with you (and probably should) but anything you can do to get traction on your drive wheels is a plus.
That being said, the difference between AWD, FWD, and RWD is very real. An RWD car needs those snow tires much more because of the possibility of turning sideways when trying to go forward, whereas the FWD car just kind of drifts left or right when it loses traction. And AWD can still drift, but less so than FWD. With the caveat that AWD cars with bad tires, or summer tires, are almost useless in the snow and ice, just as RWD or FWD cars would be with the same bad tires.
I don’t currently have snow tires for the FWD family hauler, but I do have them for the RWD sedan. I didn’t put them on this year, as there hasn’t been much snow. But I got great use out of them in past years.
@SPPPP:
Yep, and that’s why I back into parking spots.
Where I have to park, whether I back in or not, I still have to go uphill to get out of it. Being backed in does help in that the drive wheels are on the biggest obstacle. And that I can at least see where I am trying to go.
I live in Southern Ontario ,and drove a 15 EB Mustang for four winters ..It worked pretty well with a set of Michelin X winter tires ..Changing and storing wheels and tires twice a year was a major PITA.
This is my third year with a 19 Impala Premier model ..FWD with good all seasons takes me anywhere I want to go ..With 50 winters of winter driving experience ..I think i have it figured out .
Here’s the thing: with or without snow tires, the main thing limiting your ability to motor about in snow is ground clearance. With a typical FWD sedan, you’re OK to about a foot or so with all-season tires. After that, you’re prone to getting high-centered no matter what tires are on your car.
Being on the North shore (lake Ontario ) as of opposed to the south shore (Think Rochester NY) We don’t experience a lot of lake effect ..With the colder temp here ice is always a factor …
Here in Denver, it’s sunny during the wintertime, so when we get snow, it doesn’t stick around long – we got almost 10 inches a week ago, and it’s pretty much gone now.
But the flip side is that right after the sun goes down, all the melted snow turns into black ice almost immediately, particularly on freeway overpasses.
The thought strikes me, as I look at these test track photos, that this is basically best-case winter driving. If I looked out the window on a frosty morning and saw clear skies and snowy, unsalted roads like that, I would probably hop in the car and drive nowhere just for fun. That’s the easy version of winter driving, and in my state, you only get one or two chances at it per year.
There are many different hard versions, but they involve one or more of the following: other cars, plows and ruts, car-damaging salt and cinders, windshield-smearing salt spray, brine puddles, inconsistent levels of frozen-ness and therefore traction, darkness, falling snow white-out, freezing, re-freezing, black ice, and more.
Snow tires are free.
The cost is in the extra wheels or in paying to constantly mount/dismount snows and all seasons. With a little shopping I can usually get an extra set of decent wheels for less than $500. So once the snow tires are mounted it is a piece of cake to make the swap using a floor jack twice a year. I mark the tires and rotate accordingly so this saves doing rotations for rotations sake.
So the tires don’t really cost anything because you are saving wear on your all seasons. Drive your vehicle long enough and the snow’s effectively replace one set of all seasons.
Now if every manufacturer would adopt Honda’s tire pressure monitoring system. No hardware in the tires at all. So simple. VS Toyota that not only charges a kings ransom for the TPS monitors but wont let the vehicle “remember” more than 5 units, forcing me to take it to a dealer or shop with the programming tool twice a year.
Lastly, not going is annoying and at times embarrassing, but not stopping will get you into an accident. AWD/ 4WD does not help you stop, better traction does.
Those are good points. The only caveat I would add is that, if you don’t drive the car a lot of miles, you may run into the problem of dry-rot taking out your tires before they are used up. I had this problem with a set of Michelins that developed a lot of sidewall cracking. The way you store the tires can help, but some brands are just prone to it.
@KC is correct. Rather than rotating your tires you just swap your winter tires in and out. So zero extra cost or extra time there. And since you are rotating two sets of tires, they should last twice is long. So therefore there is no extra cost or time involved there either. Yes you do have to buy a set of ‘steelies’ but they hold their value better than most vehicles. So you can always sell them when you no longer need them. and if you use winter rated tires you generally get a rebate on your car insurance. For us that is over $100 each year. So the winter tires as well as adding peace of mind actually put money into my pocket. So the only possible drawback is storing the tires. Which is really rather minimal. Right now I have 3 sets of tires ‘stacked’ in my garage. Each set takes up less floor space than the lawn mower. And less space than 2 cart style golf bags. They are each on stands, the stands are on top of ‘rubber’ flooring and an old sheet is over top of each. This is to prevent the tires from sitting directly on concrete or being exposed to direct sunlight. Yes, I understand that such precautions are not necessary for modern tires, but it ‘makes me feel better’ knowing that I am ‘protecting’ them.
The Toronto area got a near record ‘dump’ of snow a few weeks ago. On a Monday. For part of the morning commute there was very limited visibility.
I was on the road for over 2 hours. For a trip that usually takes 25 minutes. Driving a FWD CUV with nearly new winter tires.
During my trip I saw well over 3 dozen stranded vehicles. I stopped counting after that. This included 2 public transit buses. It also included a large number of AWD/4WD vehicles. Usually ‘high end’ Lexi, Porsche, etc. From the look none shod with winter tires. Also a couple of 4WD pick-ups.
There were also a large number of AWD sedans/coupes. Again I am assuming no winter tires. I did notice a considerable number of sedans/coupes whose front end/air damn had accumulated so much snow that the front tires eventually were lifted right off the ground. Demonstrating the importance of road clearance height.
Having driven in Canada since the mid 1970’s I was able to keep my vehicle moving. As teenagers used to practice winter driving in empty parking lots primarily with RWD domestic sedans or rear engined VW Beetles. Spinouts, fishtailing, donuts, emergency stops, hand brake stops, etc. Often on mis-matched tires.
The article does omit a possibly important type of tire. All-weather tires. These have the ‘snowflake’ so are winter rated, unlike all-season tires. Once an all-weather’s tread wears to below a certain depth they do become non-winter rated. But for those who rarely drive in the winter, or like my mother put few miles on their vehicle, these are considered an acceptable alternative.
“It also included a large number of AWD/4WD vehicles. Usually ‘high end’ Lexi, Porsche, etc. From the look none shod with winter tires. Also a couple of 4WD pick-ups. … There were also a large number of AWD sedans/coupes. Again I am assuming no winter tires.”
I see this too from time to time. People just assume AWD will get them through anything, regardless of tire condition. Let alone snow depth vs bumper height, which limits some AWD cars to snow of a few inches or less.
Your best move in a snowstorm like that, assuming you don’t have something like a jacked-up Jeep, is to stay home.
@Mike: Unfortunately some people do not have that option, for example ‘essential’ workers. And this particular storm had some very unfortunate timing. Although there had been light snow all night a big storm blew in around 7:30am on the Monday morning and kept dropping near record amounts of snow until about 10:00am. So right at the peak of the morning commute. That caught many people during their commute. On Highway 401 going through Toronto part of the highway was closed by a combination of accidents and stalled/abandoned/stuck vehicles, so some commuters were ‘stuck’ in their vehicles for 10+ hours. Many vehicles were abandoned and left for up to 48 hours, until the City towed them away. I saw one public transit bus still abandoned on the shoulder of a highway 2 days later.
@Arthur:
Totally agree, but I’m not one of those essential folks, so I’m really speaking for myself here. If I were one of those essential workers, my car would be “wintered up”.
We live in an area with occasional snow. I have often wondered which was better in light snow conditions, my car (and Audi) with AWD and all season tires, or my wife’s car (a Mini) with FWD and four snow tires.
I saw on another site, in a test that coincidentally used FWD and AWD Minis, that AWD and all seasons would get you going much quicker, FWD and snows would get you stopped a bit quicker, and on a road course, they both came out about the same (The AWD would get started quicker, but the car with snow tires could slow and corner a bit quicker).
I had Blizzaks on my awd SRX and that car was amazing in the snow. I was in a mini-blizzard up in Cleveland and felt totally in control.
I’ve got General Altimax on my old S10 but those, while low cost, aren’t nearly as good.
Exactly. I run winters because our family heads to the mountains every weekend, so it’s well worth it. It’s a given that in any storm, nearly every car stuck in a ditch is a new SUV of some sort. I don’t need to check their tires…
@FreedMike
“That’s why you a) go slow and b) downshift to bleed off velocity before you use the brakes (paddle shifters work especially well for this). It’s worked for me since 1979.”
Got it — I have to slow to a crawl behind you on my winter tires because you are too stubborn / lazy / ignorant to use seasonally appropriate tires. As for an emergency stop in wintry conditions, your tactic of downshifting doesn’t apply — only the four contact patches between tire and road surface will help you there, and winter tires are demonstrably superior in braking.
Last Friday I was driving my RWD sedan (M-Sport 550i) in Stowe, VT. We got two feet of snow. My Hakka R3 winter tires made it safe and fun.
My friend was driving an AWD SUV with all-season tires. He got stuck twice. Cost him $150. Twice.
I run the General Grabber AT2s on my truck. They’re seven years old and only now need rotating. They are utter pucks on hard pack and ice but great on snowy gravel and loose pack. I occasionally need to punch through 2′ foot drifts on the way to work ( to plow said drifts with a 160M ) and they perform admirably. CDN$1150 all in seven years ago and they’re not even half-worn yet.
A burning issue around here is the use of 4X4 in trucks. Some guys use 4X4 to get out of trouble. Other guys use 4X4 to stay out of trouble.
I’m in the latter camp.
I’ll run 4×2 mode unless roads are bad. Then I’ll use 4×4. I do the same in the backcountry when I’m alone. 4×4 is my escape mode.
Play wheeling with others is a different story.