It wasn't that long ago that Audi was known for creating cars that ran over their owners. After the “sudden unintended acceleration" debacle, the company went on to establish a rep for building high tech cars of dubious mechanical quality. Although Audi’s position at the bottom of JD Power’s 2005 Vehicle Dependability survey doesn’t indicate much movement on this residual critical reliability front, the company claims to be addressing the issue. Meanwhile, Audi’s got a secret weapon in the battle to carve out a bigger chunk of the US car market: diesel.
With little fanfare, Audi recently announced that they’ll offer their latest generation TT roadster with a diesel engine option. It’s a startling announcement. A diesel sports car? The concept is enough to make both the traditional US diesel demographic (truck buyers) and the hard core sports car fraternity (V8 and V6’ers all) snort derisively. Or not. A diesel TT could be the missing link that unites American pistonheads in a fraternity of torque and high mileage, paving the way for a wider acceptance of diesel powered passenger cars. And if anyone can do it, it’s Audi.
Earlier this year, Audi entered their diesel-engined R10 TDI into the 24 Heures de Le Mans endurance race. The R10 scored a number of firsts: the first diesel powered car to have the fastest qualifying time and the first diesel car to win Le Mans. The R10’s performance at Le Mans was so convincing that race organizers are now deciding how to level the field, so that gasoline powered cars can compete. Although these accomplishments went largely unnoticed by most Americans (if it's ain’t NASCAR, it ain’t racin’), the implications for a diesel TT are clear. A baby R10 would be a genuine coup for Ingolstadt’s US campaigners.
But first, Audi has to persuade the press and the public that the new TT is more than another pretty face. Although Audi’s Bauhaus-inspired two-door is an undisputable fashion icon, the TT never proved itself on the field of battle. High-speed stability issues plagued the car from day one. Front wheel drive questions dogged it from day two. Horsepower questions arrived on day three. By the time all that was sorted, the TT had disappeared from enthusiasts’ radar. From initial press reports, Audi might have succeeded this time. It’s a make or break proposition for the diesel version. If Audi drops an oil burner into a wannabe sports car, it’ll simply be perceived as a quirky option version for a silly car.
If, however, the TT is a “real sports car,” the diesel could elevate the car to an entirely different level: a hero/halo car. If a diesel TT delivers massive acceleration, Bimmer-baiting handling and a Porsche-beating DSG transmission, the engine’s impact will be enormous. Pistonheads and diesels lovers alike will stand up and take notice. Given this scenario, it’s hardly surprising that the company announced that the TT will receive an all-new engine. No details were provided, but we can safely assume that the new mill will be smaller than Audi’s 2.7 or 3.0-liter diesels, and more powerful than Volkswagen’s 140hp 2.0-liter four-cylinder common rail diesel.
If Audi succeeds with a diesel TT, the company will reap tremendous rewards. The Audi name plate will be associated with high performance, high mileage products– distinguishing the company’s diesels from the other foreign car marques, which use diesels for down-market thrift (Volkswagen) or up-market waft (Mercedes). As gas prices rise and clean diesel come on-stream, Audi will have the answer American consumers want: traditional V8 performance with Euro-friendly gas mileage. With every up tick in gas prices, the message will become more compelling.
Press coverage for a new vehicle is always greatest at the time of introduction; the diesel option to follow has the potential to go largely unnoticed. Audi is already working to prevent diesel distraction by shipping the R10 to the States for the American Le Mans series. We can also expect the vehicle to engage in more publicity stunts like the recent race in the UK between the R10 and a Harrier fighter jet (The R10 just barely lost).
While Audi plans to “sex-up” its diesels, Detroit is nowhere to be seen (Jeep brand excepted). It’s ironic. Truth be told, Americans really don’t want small cars; they want big cars with gas tanks they can afford to fill. Diesel technology, which has been around a long time (unlike hybrids or fuel cells), would improve the gas mileage of Detroit’s monster SUVs and extend their popularity into an age of rising gas prices. Detroit should have recognized diesel’s potential and been the first at this party, not arriving late as usual. In any case, at least one aspiring auto manufacturer understands the restorative powers of offering the right product at the right time.
Diesel’s time is finally here and Detroit is dead on it’s collective ass (again.) Very good word has it that Toyota is preparing a diesel for the Tundra. This will crush the F150/Silverado. People will be lined up around the corner. What could possibly have compelled Ford to cancel (at huge cost) the V6 diesel that Navistar had developed for the F150? Insane.
Recently I have seen diesel Jeep Commanders and LR3’s around town with manufacturer’s plates. The Commander may have been for export, but the LR3?
Honda has announced (at least internally) that they will be selling diesel cars here within 2-3 years. VW is re-grouping on their small diesels to meet ’07 regulations and should be back for ’08.
Once people come to their senses and really do the math, they will find that diesels will be a MUCH bigger part of the solution than gas hybrids and ethanol combined. And Detroit will be nowhere to be found.
I, for one, would love to see a GOOD diesel sports coupe.
The current TT w/ a TDI wouldn’t cut it.
I think 5th Gear put it best when they compared the current / previous gen TT to a handbag. A fashion accessory. All style, no substance.
Although, Audi interior, BMW handling, TDI and RWD? Sign me up!
Heck yeah. Now if only there was a diesel car I could afford, that would be something.
Hopefully low-sulfur diesel arrives in the US soon. There’re a bunch of nice current model European market diesel cars that I’d like to try out, and it’d be great if the R10 received some publicity from Audi in the US, possibly removing some of the stigma that diesels still carry here…
As amazing as Audi’s accomplishment was with the R10, the average buyer in this country won’t sit up and take notice until someone runs a diesel in NASCAR – and with the NASCAR Nannies controlling every aspect of car design, the chances of that are about the same as them fielding something that is actually based on a production car. GM’s botched attempt at putting diesels into mainstream family cars back in the early 80s has tainted the diesel’s reputation as a passenger car engine in this country. They’ll have to price diesel fuel substantially lower than gasoline before many consumers will consider the diesel alternative.
Personally I wish Audi would sell a diesel in the A4 Cabriolet here.
i HOPE this starts the diesel revolution here in the states. my dad has a 00 Jetta TDI and its a great car (Gets 48mpg) if Audi brings the TT TDI here and its not price to high i will get one.
I think the key to making diesel a hit would be to drop to taxes on it. For one shipping costs would be lower so product pricing would drop and help the economy. and if diesel is cheaper then gas, and returns twice the mileage with equal or better performance only a moron would pass it up.
You wouldn’t necessarily need to be a moron to pass up a diesel. The nature of the engine means it is not suitable for everyone. People who frequently take short trips, or have a short commute are not good candidates.
I was interested in a Jetta TDI wagon when I bought my Forester, but after doing some research I concluded that the type of driving we (read: my wife) do was not well suited to a diesel engine. In fact, the type of driving we typically do would be ideally suited to a hybrid, but there was nothing available in the class of vehicle we wanted. The Lexus RX400h was a little out of reach, alas.
Wanted to get a VW TDI back in 2002. Not allowed in california. Didn’t meet new emmission standards. So I have just kept driving my 1989 Mustang (18mpg) and smog exempt 1972 MBZ 4.5 (14mpg). California Air Resources Board should hire at least one engineer and one economist to review their policies
Howard – Aging gearhead
1955 VW ragtop
1972 MBZ 280 SEL 4.5
1985 Volvo 245
1989 Mustang 5.0 vert
1993 Volvo 945
Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) is here (or nearly here – depending on where you fuel up.) That’s still not an open invitation to bring European diesels here. The EPA requirements are more strict than Europe’s.
The good news for California (Vermont, Maine, New York – sheesh!) is that engines designed for ULSD will be 50 state compliant. Bad news is that most cars are a couple of years away, except for the Mercedes.
Yeah – gotta believe that the EPA/CARB/New England are not looking at the big picture. CO2 versus NOx, health conerns, the true cost of oil. Mention diesel and everyone thinks of that crappy 350 conversion that GM did, and not the latest from VW or Jeep. I have to point out TDI’s to my friends. No smoke and barely a diesel smell out of the exhaust.
And no – diesels will never be for everyone – but neither are hybrids. Would just like the option of buying technology that is common everywhere else in the world.
The gas stations where I fuel up all have stickers warning that the diesel can’t be used in 2007 model year and later vehicles.
I’ve thought hard about a diesel something-or-other. It would work pretty well for my commute. Thanks to traffic, I can never go faster than 60 anyway.
YES! YES! YES!
Finally! I’ve been begging for a Diesel roadster for YEARS and everyone thinks I’m nuts. To me the ultimate would be an Elise with a TDI. That ultra lightweight Lotus chassis would likely provide startling mileage figures, and thrilling performance too. I’ve managed to reach nearly 60 MPG in my VW Jetta TDI, so lop a few thoudsand pounds off and presto! (mind you, my average is more in the upper 40s, but high 50s are possible.)
I like the TT to a certain degree, but Audi’s seem to be horrifically overpriced. How can they justify over double for the A4 over the Jetta? When I bought my Jetta in 2002 there was an A4 wagon sitting next to it for over $60k! Mind you it was AWD and packed to the gills with extras, but I paid under $20k for the TDI (that was before prices of oil-burners went crazy).
If Audi does have the guts to ship the TDI in a roadster chassis however, I WILL buy it. I have to after all the bitching I’ve done about no car maker having the balls to build one. Gotta put my money where my mouth is.
I’ve been driving VW diesels since 1998. First, an ’85 Jetta diesel, then an ’89 Jetta TD, and currently an ’03 Jetta TDI sedan. I won’t buy another gas powered vehicle if I can help it. 45 MPG on a bad day with the A/C on, and 53 on a good day. And I always drive it like I stole it.
The torque is what will sell the cars to the average North American. The key is to get people to drive them. I’m glad ULSD is being phased in, and hopefully Audi actually will bring a TT TDI over. BMW apparently is looking at North America as well for diesel implementation. If Honda follows through and brings over their diesel engines, I can see people lining up to place their orders.
GM and Ford have made such stupid decisions in regards to diesel for the NA market: Ford with the F-150 project, and also the diesel Focus. GM has the technology from its Euro divisions, but we all know they aren’t really interested in selling cars that people might actually want to buy.
It’ll probably be a rude awakening once the new diesels start appearing from the “foreign” brands. Unless GM and Ford are secretly gearing up too, but they haven’t bothered to tell anyone…yeah, that’s it, they don’t want to create any of that crazy anticipation that might sell a car or two.
I think among the congnoscenti, diesels have their place. Growing up a truck driver’s son, I have a deep respect for diesels. However, with decades of bad opinions behind them, diesels in the States seems destined for tractor-trailers.
As much as I would have liked to have seen a diesel (or E85 for that matter) on the option list of our new Malibu Maxx, no such luck. Even though my wife works for a trucking and logistics company, a diesel vehicle is just reprehensible to her. I’d be willing to bet the same applies for many folks in the States, TDI’s notwithstanding. At least until gasoline gets to $5/gal. Then you might see some movement.
About 2 weeks ago, I was in the magazine aisle of a food store, reading a diesel magazine – I forget the name of the rag, but they had a short column stating that VW was selling a bunch of diesel engines to DCX for use in the Dodge Caliber. I hope I’m not just feeding a rumor frenzy, but I know what I read. That would make for an interesting combination, I’m thinking.
I’d like to see a Diesel Civic, or Matrix. Shoot those tiny car mileage ratings to the moon.
Having spent time recently with the smart, and the CRD version of the Jeep Liberty, I appreciated the fuel savings during those periods (particularly the smart which fills up for the grand sum of $13). And although my wallet was cringing prior to a recent week spent with the Mega Cab Ram 2500… it was surprisingly cheaper than the regularly fuelled new Audi bus (which I took back early after it threatened to drink me out of house and home).
Can’t wait to see the R10 when it comes to Mosport for the ALMS series. Got some great pics of its predecessor last year, those stonking great carbon fibre brakes are pretty cool.
I’ve long maintained that the real fuel-saving technology is diesel. Hybrid technology is a stop-gap measure and E85 is a political gimmick.
I, personally, can’t stand the smell of the stuff. But if we can clean it up and quiet it down, Americans will flock to diesel. High torque and high mileage will carry the day.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the price of Diesel and Gas if a considerable percentage of drivers switch from Gas to Diesel.
Sid Vicious: Do a little research on the Duramax Diesel engines used in Silverados and Sierras since 2000 (and more recently, the Express and Savana vans) before you concede the diesel pickup market to Toyota. And let’s try remember that that “crappy diesel conversion” was over 30 years ago. Only the 40-and-over crowd actually remember that one.
And let’s not forget that the ONE thing that GM got out of the debacle with Fiat was access to competitive pass. car diesel technology, one of the reasons GM Europe market share is back on the way up.
To bad the new TT loses all of it’s charm with it’s Standard Audi Design. IMO of course.
Can we finally get this diesel show on the road, I’m really tired of this foreplay bullshit about the fuel is coming the fuel is coming!!!… I welcome diesel audis with open arms and I’d already own one if they had been here for some years. I would have gladly opted for a 2.5tdi or 2.0tdi over the 2.8 in my A4 avant.
Why the TT? thats such an obscure combination of things. Its a cute idea but its certainly not something I’d put in front of getting A4 diesels and A6 diesels on US roads.
Look the TT is a playboy toy IMO. The 8N TT was a well dressed GTI of sorts.. not exactly but it has an awful lot of 1J0 parts and if it starts with 1 its from a vw. When it costs $2k usd to put a ski rack on a car do you really believe that the buyer gives much of a shyt about fuel economy? Puhleeze… lets be logical Ingolstadt, I dont have many if any customers putting 20k miles a year on a TT… I do have a bunch driving the B,C,D platform cars tho (A4, A6, A8). What it boils down to is that the time and money spent to federalize a diesel TT would be better spent on the larger cars of which more are sold and see more annual miles per vehicle.
chuckgoolsbee, you were not looking at an A4 wagon for $60k. You were looking at an S4 Avant for $60k. Unless you know what to look for, they look generally the same. A fully loaded A4 Avant Quattro is priced in the low low $40ks.
http://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,bodyStyleId-2,00.html?bodystyle=a4avant
JSForbes, the new TT hatchback looks damn sexy. The coupe leaves a bit to be desired though.
KTM, Hmm I didn’t think about the hatchback. Very nice looking car, but the grille is a bit, um, menacing.
Yah, it screams “Git outta my way or I’ll eat ya!” All teeth and no smile, just my kind of car.
Good editorial here – right on the money. I wish I had written it! Audi could really be a first mover with a true diesel sports car and to your point it would be quite a halo vehicle. AudiWorld just finished two interviews with Audi of America Executive VP Johan de Nysschen on this same subject… ties in nicely if you are interested.
People, assuming that you can put up with the narrow torque band offered by Diesels, there are a few other issues that you need to consider before going in that direction.
Firstly, it is at a premium price to equivalent petrol models, sometimes several thousand dollars.
Secondly, servicing intervals are usually shorter, and much more expensive.
Thirdly, at some stage you are going to experience the financial pain of a clogged injector.
Fourthly, Diesel is a filthy, oily substance, and quite often you are going to splash youself with it.
Fifthly, you are going to be filling up in a greasy garage forecourt where Diesel is spilt all over the ground from 18 wheelers, usually with the bowser located nicely in the rain at the edge of the filling area. Just try getting the Diesel fuel off your shoes so that you can brake safely.
Oh! I forgot! It gets good fuel economy!
I never bagged on the Isuzu, International or Cummins offered by the domestics. My point was that 3/4 ton and a $5,000 option is the price of admission. (Hence my comment regarding the V6 that Ford cancelled.) Every day during my commute I either pass or get passed by dozens of these trucks hauling nothing but their driver. Currently the domestics have a corner on this market and free markets will not allow that forever. There is huge money being made and Toyota and Nissan are not ignorant of that. Not everybody needs 600 lb-ft, but everyone would like to get 27 mpg in their 1/2 ton pickup. This will be Toyota’s advantage. I’ll be the first in line.
Regardless of how long ago GM’s misguided adventure was, it still sucked. At least Ford had the brains to buy motors from BMW (Continental) and Mazda (Escort, Tempo, Ranger.) VW converted their 1.5 gas to diesel in the same time frame and no one can argue that it wasn’t successful. The block in my diesel rabbit is exactly the same as the block in the gas motor. The SAE asked VW to do a full write up on this motor, which they did. To my knowledge SAE did not ask GM for the same. Also – seems that the over 40 crowd buy quite a few vehicles and have WAY more purchasing power (money) than Gen X and Y.
If this comes to pass markets will adjust, as they always do. Refiners will adapt to produce more distillates (diesel) and less gasoline. And you won’t have to fuel up with the truckers. I don’t today. Probably 1/3 of gas stations have a diesel pump right next to the gas pumps.
CasterOil, you’re right about the higher initial purchase price of diesel engines, but a small diesel engine common here in europe will easily run to 150k miles while the equivalent small petrols are designed to fail at around 100k. Which is why there are so many VWs still tooling round where their petrol counterparts long since gave up the ghost. Amortize that extra initial investment over an extra 50k miles and it pays for itself many times over.
WRT the pain of refuelling and Diesel’s general “filth” there really is no difference, I’ve driven both diesel and petrol on both sides of the pond, filling stations are the same, you just have to pick up the correct filler nozzle. (You’d be surprised how many folks get this wrong). Having said that, if you’re prone to splashing yourself with fuel anyway, then of course diesel will give you the same trouble…
I recently drove a Vauxhall (GM) Astra 1.7 diesel, 100 hp, which felt like plenty of poke. More fun and twice the efficiency of the (4 pot – euch) Stratus I had in Detroit. For context, my regular chariot here in Blighty is a Vauxhall Omega V6 2.5l (Caddy Catera)
How about this then…
“The car has twice the power and more than four times the weight of an F1 car, yet half the fuel consumption.”
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=14540
RF
In response to several of the comments here:
Getting a diesel engine in the TT is not as much of a waste as it might appear. Any diesel engine developed for the TT would be used on other platforms, I would think the A3 and the A4 at the very least. There are also reports that the Q7 will soon have a diesel option. If I were a betting man, my money would be that Audi is developing 2 diesel engines that, between them, could be used with most of the Audi line.
Reports are that pricing will be around 3% above the old TT. The old TT was around $35k for the 2.0T and $40k for the 3.2. That isn’t so expensive that I wouldn’t care about gas mileage. My guess is that any diesel option will be a mid-level option priced between the 2.0T and the 3.2, which I believe is how they are priced in Europe. If they do this, Audi will have a hit on its hands. If it is priced above the 3.2, well that would be a more difficult sell.
Diesels won’t be for everyone, but it looks a whole lot more attractive to me than any hybrid I’ve driven. Personally, I can’t wait to test a modern diesel. Unfortunately for me, I live in one of those 5 states where current diesels can’t pass emissions.
On a related note, if you’d like to read more specifics about Audi’s plans for diesels in the US, see this interview with Johan de Nysschen, Audi of America VP:
http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/jdn2/
Audi is definitely at the forefront of diesel technology for passenger cars, and I, too, would welcome the chance to buy an Audi with a TDI engine – amazing refinement, power and TORQUE.
zOMG… JET is reading TTAC!
BarryO- I believe that the diesel engines VW is selling to DCX for the Caliber will only go into european bound Calibers. Unfortunately I don’t think these will find their way to the US market.
CasterOil- I’ve never known servicing intervals to be any shorter than for gas engines. In fact, I just did an air filter and oil change on my TDI (pumpe diesel for those of you who know what that is) and it will not need servicing again for 15000 km’s (9320 miles). Thats pretty good considering that I used to change the oil on my dodge every 4 or 5 thousand miles.
The thing is that the R8 could have been faster than the R10 if they developed it more. even now with a far less inferior chassis the privateer r8’s can compete with the R10. Another embarassing moment for the R10 this year was when the P2 Penske Porsche Spyders beat the P1 R10’s in a AMLS race this year!