Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that a less-than-flattering Buick Lucerne review would score me a road test reprise on Prince Edward Island, Canada. Thanks to an internet-savvy Buick flackmeister determined to show me the light, the deal went down. Of course, RF pointed out that a junket courtesy of a diss-missed manufacturer was not without its dangers: brow-beating, brainwashing, alcohol poisoning and/or failed brakes. So I brought my Mom.
The five Buick Lucernes parked outside our hotel were a thing of beauty. Waxed to perfection, the factory orange peel provided reasonable reassurance that our press cars weren’t specially prepped ringers. As the Lucerne's Product manager gave us the usual product demo, I fixated on the Magnaride exhibit. Like sand in an hourglass, two saimesed syringes filled with Magnaride's iron-goo morph from maple-syrup smooth to unyielding concrete, depending on proximity to an external magnet. Damn, that's cool.
ADD episode over, I retreated to the gorgeous looking Lucerne's decadent interior. Product-guru Drew Kraisinger requested and gained permission to climb aboard. Mom retreated into the backseat to overhear a little Quiet Tuned susurration.
Touring the Canadian island confirmed one thing: the Lucerne CXS' ride and handling balance feels great on smooth roads at Matlock speeds. Catch island fever, though and you'll soon discover that the big Buick ain't no Hawaii Five-0 cop car. Even a mildly-aggressive downhill curve at 55mph sends the brittle tires howling in disapproval. Bumpy roads force the 18" rims into a chassis-crashing frenzy, leaving the front subframe dazed and confused.
I bitched and moaned while Product Guru Drew listened patiently, sending Mom down memory lane. She recalled my youthful ability to bombard car salesmen with facts and figures delivered in a manner befitting an American shock and awe campaign. Yes, and Mom knows Buicks. In fact, I figure she earned this junket by purchasing a two-toned, limited-grade, gas-sipping Buick Century during the brand’s (and Detroit’s) previous dark age (the early 1980s).
Now that Mom inhabits the Lucerne’s intended demographic (i.e. someone old enough to remember Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-in), Buick's press rep actively elicited her opinions. When pressed, Mom praised the Buick’s styling, comfort, quiet ride and (yes) the MP3 hookup, cooled seats and OnStar-backed cellular phone service. When asked whether she’d been won over by the big Buick’s charms, Mom displayed her mastery of situational ethics. “I would definitely consider purchasing this car,” she proclaimed, definitely considering our host’s generosity.
Once again, I opened my mind to the company’s decision to add high horsepower to a wrong-wheel drive chassis. If Japan sells fwd hp by the boatload, maybe there's a place for the V8-motivated Lucerne CXS. Then again, maybe not. The CSX’ Magnaride suspension and 18" wheels promise more than the hard tires and flaccid chassis can deliver. The suspension needs a Corvette-style user interface (i.e. a switch for touring or sport dampening). Add a front chassis brace (or three), give an option for sport tires, and Buick might have a contender in the "near-luxury" segment.
After a lobster lunch at a suitably charming beachfront bed and breakfast, Buick's PR-wingman joined mother and son for part two: a jaunt in the cheaper Lucerne CXL. Cholesterol be damned; the less-rich Lucerne became my favorite Buick in a matter of minutes. Conservative 55-series rubber (17" hoops) and a softer suspension (no Magnaride) creamed road imperfections, reducing chassis flex to a mere wiggle. The CXL’s exterior was also more appealing, flaunting chrome in all the right places. Gone are the afterthought tailpipe extensions and adhesive-backed decklid bling; replaced by a brilliant chrome grille. The end result was solid Buick spizzarkle in the Roadmaster tradition, for a lot less dough.
The CXL's (optional) Northstar V8 puts the power down with a rowdy soundtrack– immediately downplayed by our gracious host. Which set me off again. If you can't Quiet Tune those 32-valves, why not promote Buick as an American Muscle Car icon? Don't try to out-Lexus an ES350. I mean, every Lucerne in attendance had a wiggly shift knob, loose shifter and dashboards sporting rock hard plastics. Mom won't remember, but even her old Century knew better; its flat-out amazing what $9000 got you in a GM interior back then.
In fact, let’s face it: Buick will never be an American Lexus, no matter how much spin is spun or press junket petty-cash hides in the console. After chatting with the Buick folk about life, liberty and the pursuit of precision, one thing became clear: GM’s minions know they’re up against it. They spoke hopefully about their next new dawn: the upcoming Enclave sport crossover utility thingie. They even invited TTAC to its official media introduction. And then, upon our return, GM formally banned TTAC from its Dallas press fleet. Suffice it to say, Mom wasn’t surprised. Neither was I.
[Buick paid the Mehta's airfare, hotel, transfers, the test cars and food.]
Gee, I wrote bad stuff about the Mercedes E550 and they haven’t even sent me a threatening email. Once again, Sajeev, you are the man!
Jeez, you guys will have to take jobs as valets in S. California just to get your hands on new rides! Let’s make it a requirement of TTAC membership that we notify RF when we have purchased new wheels, and he can coordinate a review of the vehicle by one of his minions.
Not required, but certainly appreciated: robertfarago@thetruthaboutcars.com
Well, there are always the rental places and *ahem* extended test drives at dealerships…
Hello!
If only GM would bring over the entire Opel line intact–as in NO DUMBING-DOWN THE CARS for the geriatric set–they MIGHT be a contender.
NO softer springs
NO 78-series whitewall tires
NO bench seats
NO fake wood interiors
NO added chrome exterior accents
NO padded vinyl roofs
NO Landau bars
NO opera windows
Beyond that, Buick, like the rest of GM, is just another nameplate of generic mix-and-match products. What does the name–or any other US GM name mean anymore to anybody?
I enjoyed this review. Being someone who actually does remember Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In, this car as well as the Cadillac CTS, Chrysler 300C, Dodge Charger, Ford 500, the new V-6 Saab 9-3 SportCombi and Volvo S80, are on the list of possible replacements for our “family car.â€
What’s incredibly weird, for us anyway, is for the first time EVER our list is very heavily weighted with American-made cars. We’ve traditionally been European car buyer’s; BMWs primarily, Volkswagon, Mercedes Benz, and most recently a Saab (my current car is a Saab 9-3 Aero Sport Sedan, which I positively love) filling out the list of usual suspects.
However, the last two or three years have been incredible, in my opinion, for the domestic car makers with the design and development of the four “family†sedans listed above – Chrysler being the standout . Now you wouldn’t have caught me dead in ANY Chrysler dealership much less a Ford store five years ago, but with fresh exterior styling equaling that of the imports and VASTLY improved interiors, we are now actually considering the domestic brands (gone are the days of the GM Gray Play-Doh/Playskool dash board controls, thank God!)
And by all accounts, reliability for American-made cars has improved to the point where they no longer are the risk they once were. That, combined with the comparatively inexpensive cost of servicing and maintenance, and a dealership on every corner of the known universe, make the domestics that much more appealing.
So, we’re gearheads and are seriously considering an American-made “Family Sedan.†I personally believe that bodes well for the domestic car industry because we just might be the sort of folk they’re trying to win the hearts and minds. Of course the proof will be in the test-drive ultimately as no matter of high-style or appealing interior can compensate for a floaty, boulevard ride – which is what I believe sends people off in search of foreign-made cars in the first place.
Thanks for a good review; the Lucerne CXL is still on the list.
Great review, Sajeev.
I would be more than happy to let you guys test drive any new car I purchase in the future.
I have not driven a new buick product but had the last generation in my garage. On the plus side, not having and olds or pontiac rendition to neuter the buick, it looks more distinctive and closer to the caddy then something else. The price is right and in it’s regular edition. Now will it run with a toyota avalon or nissan maxima for about the same money? Will it have resale like the above asians? Will gm keep building it or replace it with something else, or trash the entire buick line ala olds? Buick has a dealer network that sells 8 or 9 buicks per month. Since this can’t go on, most buick stores have been consolidated into chevy, buick, caddy combos.
It is one more new model from the big two after trashing their older un-succesful ones. (lesabre park ave.) Can we trust GM to see buick thru the next generation changeover if it doesn’t sell? If I could answer these questions, I could better able to make a decesion about ever owning a buick again.
“When better Buicks are built, TOYOTA will build them”
As I drive, I see so many older drivers happily piloting their Avalons and Maximas. I KNOW these people–many who fought the Japanese in WWII–previously owned Buicks, Olds, Lincolns, Caddies, etc. My father and father-in-law(deceased) are just 2 of them.
You realize of course that the car itself is merely one part of the equation. You have the complete driving and ownership experience, treatment at the dealership at point of sale and in the service department, depreciation and trade-in value on a new same-brand auto.
It would be interesting to see the difference in numbers of GM products being traded in for Asian brands vs Asian brands traded in for new GM products.
Magnaride. Probably the best piece of ‘transition’ tech to come out in the last 5+ years. Until the world goes to fully active suspenders (something akin to the Bose system) magnaride has all sorts of potential for being the best halfway point.
Too bad GM has it. For the price of a coupla press junkets, Buick could have installed a switch to tighten the handling up in every one of those invisible Buicks they’re gonna sell. The price of another few first-clas airfares would have dialed the handling a bit.
If GM spent it’s money smarter, they could have a have a car that required nothing more to bribe the journos than some cheese and crackers and Natty Light. Couple hours on the road and test track. GM gets a good review because it spent money on a quality car for a change. Journos get togo food.
Even the customers might be happy. (how novel is that?)
Appearance is highly subjective (thank god, or it would be a boring world) but I just have no clue how anyone has found this car anything but almost transparent. When you stare at any Buick sedan for more than 5 seconds, they fade away, even though they have not moved.
OK, the port-hole things are so cheesy and poorly executed they burn holes in your retinas, but other than that bit of painful visual smeg, Buicks are an errant wisp of smoke.
They’re great getaway cars for things like bank robbery though. Just de-plate and de-badge it. Chances of anybody even remembering the color, let alone knowing what type of car are almost zero.
It looks too much like a Sable with inflated headlights.
Sajeev,
My parents are in their 70’s. They are (theoretically) Buick age customers. The closest they’ll ever get to a Buick is an Avalon. Which, though unobtrusive, at least it has clean lines, doesn’t look like a rental, and the parts don’t fall off after 10K (or 100K for that matter).
The lucerne looks like an amorphous blob imbedded with bulbous headlamps of disproportionate size to the rest of the forward bodywork. Much like there is a golden ratio of facial geometry in humans there is also IMO a golden ratio for cars… the Lucerne demonstrates that GM denounces the existance of such a ratio like some religious folks do evolution. The BMW standard fare Hofmeister kink in the window trim is commonplace on honda accords today. I guess chrome wheels and tacked on trim are tantalizing for old folks or at least the people making decisions at GM.
Buick is to the automotive world what cubic zirconia is to jewelery. It looks flash and desireable to the ignorant, tho to anyone with a clue it is not the genuine article and that explains why GM sells em at cut (their own) throaght prices. If Buick were the genuine article and it’s image wasn’t so far gone there would still be a future for the brand a-la Rolex. Buick has been neglected for so many deccades that today it is nothing more than costume jewelery masquerading as something special.
Sajeev,
An fair and honest review I think. As much as I hate to admit it, I like the look of the Lucerne. Buicks aren’t supposed to appeal to people under 60!The last Buick that appealed to me were the Grand Nationals from the 80’s (well, I liked the Reatta too) It’s attractive and I am not alone in thinking this amongst people “like me” (late 30’s, wife, 2 kids, six-figure income). If GM can keep introducing attractive Buicks and then (fingers-crossed) sweat the details, there’s a future for Buick (and GM) yet.
I am looking forward to seeing the Enclave based on the pix from the auto show circuit!
CJ
PS- To confess, I have an `03 Rendezvous which we purchased for left-brain purposes (eg. cost, content, utility). It has been a capable workhorse for the family and has had no problems (except for the ones we’ve caused) but in no way does it set the heart afire!
Yesterday I received a call from my local Saturn dealer letting me know that their first shipment of Auras had arrived. When I got to the dealer, I immediately spotted one with the Morocco Brown leather. My first thoughts were “wow, I love this color” and “this is nicer than the last Lucerne I was in”.
Despite there being more plastic wood in the Saturn, it was better matched to the leather and more real looking. The dash didn’t threaten to cave in when I pressed on it. The seats were more comfortable and even the leather was softer. The kicker? The Saturn was $26k; the Lucerne was close to $40k.
Of course the Saturn had its weak spot too – in this case the doors, which pretty much makes it the quality opposite of the Lucerne. The armrests were made of a flimsy plastic / rubber material that threatened to implode when pressed on, though it held up to my elbows fine. A large plastic insert matched to the color would have looked a lot better if it were leather – or unmatched.
Maybe GM will get it all right in one car someday. In the meantime I’d feel a lot better about buying the Aura than the Lucerne. Come to think of it, isn’t that exactly why they killed Oldsmobile?
The Aura, got a pretty nice review in my local newspaper the other day. However, TTAC has helped educate us about the nature of the auto journalism biz!
However, even if 50% of it was true and unbiased, it was probably the best review of a mainstream GM product in a long time.
CJ
Wish GM could flog that RWD chassis out of Australia a bit faster. There is a market for big FWD cars (Lucerne’s predecssor, the LeSabre dominated that market for many years, today Avalon carries that torch). But they will never provide a chassis worthy of a big, smooth V8. Wards is reporting that GM is considering importing the Holden Commodore, to get a jump start before they start building them over here.
Buick’s best hope for survival is to not only get the enclave spot on but to produce a four door full sized version of the Velite concept car. Flashy styling to draw attention, 3.6 l 270 Hp base motor, 6.0l 380 hp flagship engine and a hybrid version like that found in the GMT 900 pickups and Tahoe. A midsized Gs300 and competitor should come next followed by putting actual effort into crating an appealing lacrosse. I have to respectfully disagree about the interior quality. I found it to be up to modern standards in everyway, especially the chrome bright work on and near major interfaces and the comfort and ergonomics of the door panels..
What’s with the bias against front wheel drive, Sajeev? The average motorist doesn’t need the handling characteristics of rear wheel drive . . . and front wheel drive can result in a more efficient package design, particularly for a family sedan or crossover vehicle.
If it is true that GM will switch the next-generation Chevy Impala to rear wheel drive, I think that will turn out to be a mistake. The “enthusiast” market is hardly unlimited, and as the years go by Detroit will face increasing pressure to improve gas mileage.
Buick’s history includes some “gentleman’s muscle cars,” notably the Buick Riviera GS – 425 horsepower from a 425 cid V8 as I recall – and the Buick GS, a variant of the Skylark with a 455 cid nestled in the engine bay. So the throaty rumble of the wonderful Northstar V8 is a way to get people into Buicks who are young enough – mid 40s – to value that, as well as a well screwed together car.
I haven’t driven a Luecerne but a friend who manages a book store and is a major car junkie has; and he said it is highly competitive with Toyota and Nissan. I have driven the Nissan Maxima – first in 2004 and more recently this summer. And it’s a helluva car: good looking and plenty fast for a sedan’s needs on American roads. In 2004, I took one from Seattle WA on a 500 miles trip to an estate auction just north of Cambridge ID and back. I drove there on just two hours sleep, solo, and made there by the grace of whatever Higher Power I have and that Nissan.
Maybe Buick has hit the mark there, too. It sounds like they have, from this well-written and entertaining review. I am really glad that GM allowed to bring his mother, since she is among the target demographic. It made for a good read, something different than the usual “boy racer” stuff.
Typo error to last post and correction should be: “… allowed Sajeev to bring his mother.”
Thank you all for your comments. Hope you had as much fun reading it as I did writing.
2006300c: have you noticed the largest part (middle) of the dash is made of harder plastic than the console or doors? It even turns a different color in direct sunlight! (tan interiors only)
I am anal, but its hard to mention the Lucerne in the same breath with the Avalon/ES with such blatant cost cutting.
Steven T.: front wheel drive can result in a more efficient package design. It did back in the 1980s. The Lucerne and all its competition has outgrown the space saving nature of FWD. My other beefs with FWD include:
1. Torque steer at full throttle, even the average motorist feels that
2. After the warranty goes out, CV joints and boots wear out much faster than a RWD design
3. More labor to fix suspension/transaxle/misc components on V-engined cars (in general) because of tight underhood packaging.
4. Most anyone can take a turn in a RWD car and “feel” the difference of using one set of wheels to turn and another to drive.
5. Even winter traction is an issue because the slippery roads induce massive understeer faster than a RWD car with a couple sandbags in the trunk. RWD is easier to rotate. And modern day snowtires (Blizzaks) seem to narrow the gap even more.
There’s a reason why even the average consumer lusts after a BMW once in a while. Ok, rant over. :-)
Terry: GM asked me to bring a guest, and Mom was the best candidate given the short notice. Turns out we had a blast, it was something nobody who attended will ever forget.
Sajeev,
You’re right about RWD having better road feel than FWD (especially as engine displacement increases) and the suspension/CV joint wear is one of the reasons large commercial fleets (ie taxis and police) still prefer RWD units. However, a FWD car will always have the advantage in winter weather simply because of the weight over the driving wheels. You’re virtually unstoppable in snow with a front-driver equipped with snow tires and traction control. New tech makes RWD more competitive but not equal to the benefits of FWD in the white stuff. I do agree with the understeer issue but that is endemic to FWD regardless of road conditions.
I think that for the market that Buick is aiming for, front wheel drive is preferrable. Most of the Buick customers care more about a cushy ride and safe handling in all weather than about the ability to clip an apex. But the styling?!? The rear is from the previous model Passat and ther front looks like a copy of the Maxima. What should scare Buick is the reaction to life-long Buick customers when they are exposed to the products of Lexus, Acura, etc. I went with a neighbor (a 65 year old retired newspaper worker) who had owned a succession of Buicks since the late 1960’s. After 20 minutes in the Acura TL he was sold. He never imagined a car could handle and accelerate so well. He was also impressed with the build quality and the materials used in the interior. What surprised him the most was that he was treated with grace and curtesy by the Acura dealer. He has sworn off Buick for good. If GM loses guys like him, they are really in trouble.
Buick aims to be an upscale brand; any brand that wants that image has to have a rear drive flagship and one halo or niche car, that’s the way the business works. They can also be 4WD but that consumes unnecessary fuel.
The auto industry can be so fad-obsessed. Right now a big trend is to rear wheel drive; five years from now the pundits will be beating up on GM and Chrysler for investing too heavily in those kinds of cars.
Why? Fuel economy is going to need to increase for trucks AND passenger cars. There’s really no way around that. Seejev is right that many recent FWDs haven’t fully benefitted from its greater efficiencies; that will need to change.
It’s entirely fine that Seejev doesn’t find front wheel drive compelling in the cars he buys (or tests). However, I don’t think he has yet made the case that rear wheel drive is the way to go for family sedans not targeted at enthusiasts.
2006300c suggests that an upscale brand must have a rear-wheel-drive flagship. I question that — Audi illustrates that it can be beneficial to differentiate a brand from the slavish “me-tooism” of everyone else. At any rate, what are the chances that Buick can succeed in moving upmarket given intensifying international competition? My bet: Zero to none.
Buick would do much better to mimick the Toyota Avalon than the Chrysler 300.
Steven: Yes, I don’t like portly front drivers, but out-of-date ones are more disappointing. The Buick’s chassis is too little, too late. Let’s try some history to explain my thoughts:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this chassis dates back to the early 1990s, when created for the stellar ’95 Oldsmobile Aurora (now that was a FWD car to love) and benchmarked against the most rigid chassis at the time: the MB 300E.
Ten-ish years later, the Lucerne’s chassis is loose (its larger-than-Aurora size doesn’t help) and that’s one fundamental flaw I cannot ignore. To drive home my point in the article:
1) stiffen the chassis for everyone’s sake. Maybe strut tower braces like Toyota gives their $19,000 Camry???
2) For the CXS: add sport tires/magnaride tweaking (a la Corvette) for the enthusiast crowd looking for a mainstream sports sedan.
Those two additions would go verrrry far in shutting me up. Improve the product! :-)
And for the record, my Mom rolls a wrong-wheel drive ride.
But its a small, sporty hatchback with fuel efficiency and plenty of roadholding grip, and I love driving it any time she hands me the keys.
Let’s face it, if the world were a “1984 perfect” place, everyone would drive a minivan. Logically, they make the perfect form of transportation.
I have lots of vehicles, and can buy anything I want, but at just 31 with a bummed football knee… some of the best day long shopping excursions with the girlfriend around xmas time have been in our dual sliding door minivan….. Every year we go to myrlte beach from Long Island, and we usually take my Jeep Wrangler, this year we took my AWD Astro (I love it, it’s hated by many), and it was a MUCH better experience! Even having foregone the convertible top of the Jeep.
Another thing I have to say…. I’m a big guy…. and find some of the center consoles (even in larger cars) very intrusive, and it gets annoying to click in the seatbelt. And why do some of the manufacturers put the gearshift no just in the center consol, but way on the left side, right where my knee or upper leg will rest against it…. same for the avalon, where my right leg seems to constantly hit the center stack… this can get downright painful after a day of driving!!! I also know old people that need to lean all the way in and then swing their legs in, impossible with a center console. So there is a market for some that might occasionally want a bench seat. Especially because many of the few people that can afford the car in the first place are the older people with the money. Ask your high school sons of they wanna borrow the center console vehicle for a date…..
As far as demographics… I think if you’re hearing tire squealing from the Lucerne’s tires, you’re going faster than it was intended to…. lol
I do see lots of rich old people driving around Long Island in Avalons, the even smarter ones own Camrys (wink). I still think the new buicks are way better than they have ever been. I also think that a whole lot of readers might like it if they rode in it. I will also say that I find a lot of vehicles hard to justify against the price of a Chrysler 300, even for all ITS faults (and yes it has a few).
A thought about MagnaRide…. now there’s a system I would hate to own after the warranty expires…. let’s put some real money into making a really good conventional suspension. (I do believe in air rears, becuase I hate when sedans sit lot in the rear as soon as you have people in it. Offer maybe just TWO suspension, and spend a lot of time tuning each one, like in the old GM days when you got the stanard, or F41 or whatever it was. How can there be five engine choices, and three suspensions, and there be enough time to tune and test all of the combinations correctly? I think the manufacturers need to go back to channeling a little more Henry Ford…. build the whole vehicle for a niche, and don’t try to make every vehicle configurable to every niche.
I had a few bonnevilles, (loved my ssei), and I thought the low tech 3800 engines were the best engines I ever owned, however, my Dad had a late Riviera which I HATED, what was Buick thinking with that….?
OTHER THAN THE CAT’S EYE HEADLIGHTS THAT ARE STILL AFFLICTING MOST CARS (WHY DON’T THEY ALL JUST DITCH THEM ALREADY?); THE PHONY BUMPERS (WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CHROME ONES WITH THE SHOCS TO REALLY ABSORB A FENDER BENDER WITH NO DAMAGE; YOU KNOW, LIKE THE ONES ON MY ’77 GRAND PRIX?) THAT ARE DESIGNED TO GET SCRATCHED (AT BEST); AND THE FWD, THE LUCERNE IS A MIGHTY GOOD LOOKING AUTOMOBILE.
THIS FROM A CAR NUT WHO HASN’T LIKED A BUICK SINCE THE 1963-1965 RIVIERA.
EDDY IN NEW YORK.
Sajeev Mehta:
August 19th, 2006 at 10:04 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this chassis dates back to the early 1990s, when created for the stellar ‘95 Oldsmobile Aurora (now that was a FWD car to love)”
Not if you were an Oldsmobile technician! This was a car that would make a Olds tech run and hide! Starter motor hidden beneath the intake manifold, ANY engine service other than plugs or injectors requiring powertrain removal from the car. A $35 transmission solenoid requiring the same all-day work.
The doctors and blue-haired(or NO-haired) crowd thought they were getting an Audi at a bargain price ended up with a Chevy Celebrity on steroids. As one Olds tech told me at my dealership..”Crap on a stick, but I guess that’s what these people like”.
GM finally positioned Oldsmobile as their..uhhh..”Import Fighter”. They didnt know you dont bring a knife to a gunfight. And where is Olds NOW???
“combined with the comparatively inexpensive cost of servicing and maintenance”
Where on earth did someone get that idea? Servicing is not cheap if it has to be done twice as often. Ironically, however, it’s now the ’06 Avalon and Camry that are in trouble. As I’ve remarked before, Toyota is losing control. Too big too fast. Too much emphasis on hybrids.
In Toronto a few months back I wound up with a Lucerne as my rental for a few days. It was everything my father would have loved.
Soft ride
Numb, vague steering
Lots of room
Poor reflexes
Terrible if pushed hard
On the up side, it would comfortably hold five full-size adults, me, my client and 3 person video crew, who called it “the limo.” One of the crew, a GM-product die-hard, said how much he loved it, and talked about how great GM cars are, especially the big ones. But then, this is a guy who goes to Disney World in Orlando 6 times a year, so he is clearly living in a fantasy anyway.
GM and ford have the franchise on spongy, numb, supersized cars. They more or less have it by default. Who buys these things? Generallly older people who will never take any car to it’s limits and don’t want to hear or feel anything when they drive. Lincoln and Olds have ridden this niche into the ground. Sure there will always be millions of seniors buying cars. Trouble is, if you don’t use them hard, care about style, and are conservative to boot, you don’t buy these things often. And when your children put you in a nursing home they sell the boatmobile and drive away in their japanese or German something or other. Buick may (after ford defaults) have a lock on this business. Somebody has to build the stuff. No offense to seniors I’m 63, and won’t like it when my daughters come to cart me away.
All I can do is speak from personal experience regarding “inexpensive to maintainâ€:
Over the last fifteen years, our family has owned three American-made trucks (one Chevy, two Dodge), all of which were incredibly cheap to maintain and service.
All were sold with 130,000+ miles.
Not only were they cheap to maintain, they were by far the cheapest vehicles to own we’ve ever had. They’re were reliable vehicles and always got the job done with a minimum of fuss.
No horror stories here (sorry, philbailey.)
And while my original post had more to do about the foreign cars we’ve owned, one of my favorite non-foreign cars was a 1995 Oldsmobile Aurora. And, once again, this one was cheap to keep and very reliable.
To N2F – I guess reliable for X-miles depends on how long your yardstick is. My yardstick is 250K miles long. My 1965 Beetle has 130K+ miles with no-tech on board. ANYTHING modern ought to last 200K+ with a minimum of fuss unless it is a commercial vehicle being flogged HARD daily.
n2f has a point.
We’ve only owned one domestic car, a ’96 Exploder, but in 8 years 136K miles it was pretty damn reliable (with one exception). In that period it needed plugs and wires once, oil every 5K, four air filters, 2 sets of tires, one serp belt, a couple of brake jobs, ball joints (3X), and a radiator. All normal wear items. On the downside, it did, on the other hand, need a transmission at 77K. But basically all I did was change the oil and add gas. It wasn’t a competitor to an X5, ML 420, XC90, FX 45 or anything, but it was pretty painless to own (except for the tranny.) Lot to be said for that.
But the reliability champ for us was an ’84 Saab 900 which we had for 20 years. Brakes, oil, exhaust. Plugs occasionally. A clutch. A radiator and water pump. Broke it in at 80 mph so it knew what the left lane was for.
Buick is a dead brand motoring. GM is trying to get Buick under the roof of GMC and Pontiac. There in place, GM will pull the plug for a slow demise, and the dealer won’t be screaming for Olds $ because he’s got GMC and Pontiac still to sell. GM can’t afford to buy out Buick dealers, so the dying patient needs to be surrounded by the nurses known here as GMC and Pontiac.
Ever since I started writing on the Internet, I Google up my work to see what the car enthusiast messageboards have to say. Sometimes I’ll even post there, and thanks to TTAC, I have to because I’ve earned quite a reputation.
http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=16&t=11208&st=0#entry182412
Like I said on C&G.com, I’ll be driving a Lexus ES 350 soon. If, under my driving conditions, (cruise control going up and down hills) the Lexus and Lucerne make the same amount of intrusive engine growl, I’ll retract my negative remarks about Buick’s much-promoted Quiet Tuning both here and on Cheers and Gears.
You heard it here first. Anyone know how bitter Humble Pie tastes? I might be in for an extra-large helping. Oh, snap!
Sajeev,
I think the Lucerne rides on the same platform (albeit updated) that replaced the original platform that underpinned the `95 Aurora and the Riviera. This platform was used for the `00-`03 Aurora, `00-`05 Bonneville and if I not mistaken the `00-`05 Park Ave. Not very exalted company but I know my folks loved both their `05 Aurora and `00 Aurora and I thought the `04-`05 Bonneville GXP looked right sexy on the outside (and then you got in it and realized that beauty can indeed be skin-deep).
Thank CSJ, that’s what I thought. I’d like to know how stiff this chassis is today. The original Aurora was tight (flexing at 25hz) for its day, but it also had a smaller trunklid and a less-SUV like stance.
The sad fact is that Toyota puts strut tower braces on their all-new (but run of the mill) Camry platform, which is the basis for the Lexus ES. And it shows, that chassis is TIGHT. GM’s full-size flagship offering sits on a re-hashed unibody that flexes and quivers everywhere.
Sajeev,
Yep, GM continues to be a buck short and a day late in that department. I haven’t heard if there is anything in the pipe to replace either this platform or the platform that is under the Lacrosse (Allure up here), Grand Prix, Impala et al.
Hopefully, some of the current Cadillac platforms can work their way down to the lower food chain brands (I’m thinking of the CTS, STS and SRX platform) while Cadillac gets newer engineering and technology to play with. I mean, that platform (Sigma, I think its called) should be bought and paid for by now right?
Another killer on the old `95 Aurora/Riv, those things were HEAVY!
2006300C: In response to your comment about an upscale brand needing a halo car and a RWD flagship, how do you explain Acura? I don’t think they even have a V8!
I apologize, I couldn’t resist.
CJ
The fact is, GM has to start producing vehicles 20% BETTER than the competition to gain traction on changing market attitudes. THAT is the challenge. “As good as” (which they are not, currently) will NOT cut it. But Buick is a damaged brand, and I find it fascinating that some are resisting the obvious. The resources allocated to propping this turd up on better spent on fixing the other GM brands. But, as I’ve written before, it will take time for GM to engineer its departure by burying it in the GMC/Pontiac tomb.
>>>As much as I hate to admit it, I like the look of the Lucerne. Buicks aren’t supposed to appeal to people under 60!The last Buick that appealed to me were the Grand Nationals from the 80’s (well, I liked the Reatta too) It’s attractive and I am not alone in thinking this amongst people “like me†(late 30’s, wife, 2 kids, six-figure income).
You’re obviously too young to remember the ’64s, the look of which can still instantlytransport me from home in suburban Boston to the Southern California of the Beach Boys (but go to motorlegends.com, click on “people and cars,” and among the slides will be a guy with his ’64), or the ’53, Lyndon Johnson’s old car (at motorlegends.com, click on CarToons, and scroll down). Next to these, the Lucerne would have all the charisma of a microwave.
Someone else mentioned the porthole thingies. They are called cruiserline ventiports.
Eddy writes
OTHER THAN THE CAT’S EYE HEADLIGHTS THAT ARE STILL AFFLICTING MOST CARS (WHY DON’T THEY ALL JUST DITCH THEM ALREADY?)
My sentiments exactly.
Good point, GM DOES need to build things 20% BETTER than anyone to succeed now that they’re in the hole. I hope everyone watches AUTOLINE DETROIT on Speed Channel, John McElroy is EXCELLENT, and he constantly comments on how the domestic vehicles are really a whole lot better than people are giving them credit for. I must admit, as much as I love them, I will often take one of the imports out to dinner and such here on Long Island for fear of Yuppie Bashing….
Incidentally, one of my rides in the garage in Vegas is a late year original body style Aurora with “autobahn package” (lol), and I will say that vehicle is neither vague nor numb…. it’s a huge substantial vehicle that I feel I could put through a toll lane going 80 miles an hour…. it cruises on long trips to lake mead, and to salt lake city and the utah mountains in 120 degree heat all day at 80mph pulling 1475 RPM silently… I like that….
I have a Hyundai Sonata in the garage for people to use when they stay at the house, which for some reason keeps s’ploding it’s battery at the supermarket, has “melted” several plastic parts inside and under the hood, including some wiring blocks, AND whose red interior comes off red in your hands after sitting in the vegas sun at a store…. (I really think the new Hyundai vehicles are light years ahead now though, and would not hesitate to buy one now. Also in vegas is a chevy suburban “Texas Cadillac” (everyone out there has one) which I use to tow said Hyundai back to the garage after battery s’plodes.
I’ve sat in a Lexus ES350, and there is NO WAY that vehicle comes close to the interior space as the vehicles that people constantly compare it to. You’re looking at “Taurus sized luxury” people…. by the time you come close to the space in a Lucerne or town car, you’re in the Big Daddy Lexus at 80K or whatever it costs. Ask a fat rich old person which one they’d rather sit in.. lol
As I said previously about the Lucerne’s platform… I love my aurora, and have owned many bonnevilles over the years (had one as my first car, ah the memories)… and for some reason, I really liked those cars… had no problems except for constantly replacing alternators, seemed to be a weak point, maybe it’s because I often replaced them with “auto zone” or pep boy’s “guaranteed” models… but I don’t think they could take the heat under there, and were underpowered for all the gizmos, but the upside is that they were $60 lifetime guarantee…. and could change it in literally 5 minutes. On the other hand, I HATE my dad’s Riviera….. but what is amazing, is how different all the vehicles were that were built on this platform.
please don’t hate me -John
p.s. – The “cheesy” heads up display in my bonnevilles was weird at first, but became a feature I absolutely LOVED and MISS… once you get used to it, you wonder why you need to look down at common “guages” anymore, maybe it’s because I’m tall, but it NEVER bothered me at all as some complain, I think it made driving safer, and made me constantly aware of how fast I was going.
Apparently there are no Safeway grocery stores in the Detroit area. If there were, GM would have recognized that Safeway has used the “Lucerne” brand name for decades on their dairy products. In short, it was “generic”…
I distinctly remember Lucerne milk being very watery. It didn’t have the rich, quality taste of other brands. I don’t know who picked the Lucerne name at GM, but whoever did should be promptly fired.
To continue with the food metaphor, GM also reminds me a lot of Cisco, the food supplier. When you walk into a restaurant and notice on the sugar packets the Cisco name, it is a safe bet to say your meal isn’t going to be fantastic, but rather bland and uninspiring. After all, Cisco supplies food to prisons and school cafeterias.
Compared to cities like New York, Tokyo, and San Francisco, Detriot is hardly know for it’s restaurants. To the average GM engineer, a Cisco meal is just fine. Cheap, watery Lucerne milk can help wash it down.
The rest of us know better.
That, combined with the comparatively inexpensive cost of servicing and maintenance, and a dealership on every corner of the known universe, make the domestics that much more appealing.
I would disagree that domestics are less expensive to maintain IF you follow the recommended service schedule. I have owned a BMW, a Toyota, and a Honda recently. I currently own an F150 and a Suburban. I would say that the cheapest maintenance overall was the BMW. A $100 15,000 mile service and a $300 30,000 mile service.
In the others, there would be about 3-5 services per 15,000 miles depending on exact recommendations. For example, I use the 5W-20 oil recommended by Ford and my oil changes are about $40. I checked on the recommended service schedule at my local Ford dealership recently, and I would be looking at about $1200 in service for the first 50,000 miles. Ditto the Chevy. The BMW would have been $500. I recently had the transmission flushed (to get the fluid out of the torque converter) at a cost of about $90 (it would have been over $200 at the dealership).
The BMW also does not need a timing belt (Honda and Toyota on most models) either. Of course, BMW includes all maintenance for the first 50,000 miles or 4 years (excluding tires and gas).
Having said this, most people that I know (myself included) that drive domestics do not follow the recommended maintenance very well. Typically, the oil is all that gets done, so maintenance is cheap. Most people I know or talk to consider oil the only real maintenance item on their cars. A few will acknowledge the transmission or brakes, but most don’t do anything about those until something is wrong.
Once again, I am speaking of MY experiences and people I talk to. I think it is more perception than reality. Another thing, is the treatment at the dealerships. If you buy a Lexus in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, the dealerships give you a loan car (not available with most domestics, except for Cadillac). In fact, one Lexus dealership has a pickup/drop off service within 50 miles. You call, they bring a loan car, leave it, take your car and service it, and then exchange them again. You never have to leave you work or home.
The BMW dealerships all give loan cars, as do most “luxury” makes. So, to me, this is worth any perceived or real difference in the cost of maintenance.
GM and ford have the franchise on spongy, numb, supersized cars. They more or less have it by default. Who buys these things?
People who have never driven anything better, or are just determined to only purchase “domestics” (I think most Hondas and Toyotas sold here are as much or more domestic as the domestics). It is a matter of what people are willing to pay for a quality product. I wish the domestics made better products, but they don’t. I drive domestics now, but probably won’t buy again. I had hoped things had changed, but they hadn’t.
While the majority of these comments seem somewhat positive or indifferent towards the Buick Lucerne, I’m wondering what, to all the GM detractors, is your view of the automotive landscape in the U.S. in the next ten to fifteen years?
Are we going to be even more limited in our new car choices than we are already?
All it takes to completely depress me in this regard is to look at what the rest of the world has at their disposal as far as new car choices; Europe in particular has an unbelievable wealth of manufacturers when looking to purchase their next new car.
It just seems to me that when you look around here these days, we’re inundated with alarmingly bland, if not remarkably similar cars; reliable to be sure, but just about as interesting as a bowl of cottage cheese.
The homogenization of our new car choices down to an outrageously pedestrian and unimaginative Consumer Reports’-style specification has transformed a once diverse smorgasbord of choices here in the U.S. down to a mere handful of manufacturers.
Now I realize few people are bemoaning the departure of Peugeot or Alfa Romeo, but what was on offer from those two particular manufacturers here in the 70’s and 80’s were nothing on par with what they offer today (it is unfortunate that we can not add pictures to our posts). And while I’m not exactly advocating their return (kindly save the flame-posts, please), it just seems a pity we are already limited to such a narrow cross-section of the automotive universe, why encourage the demise of two of the already scant few remaining players here in the U.S?
So, can it can be possible to let GM survive, maybe even Ford? They both have merit and potential and I sincerely believe if allowed to continue can provide us all with even more new car choices. And while these choices may not be to your particular tastes, they might very well suit the fancy of other consumers with completely different requirements and their own unique perspective as to what a new car should actually be.
O.K., end of rant; sorry, it’s Monday!
n2f,
Check https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1997 for some of the TTAC community’s views on the automotive landscape of the future.
Here’s something interesting for the GM apologists to ponder: As of Sept 1, GM will not reimburse dealers for filling their customers’ gas tank when they take delivery of a new car.
http://jalopnik.com/cars/news/gm-says-to-dealers-no-gas-for-you-195512.php
Ha! Yeah, GM apologists are everywhere…although nothing compared to the folks that came screaming out of the woodwork on that heretical Toyota “quality†piece.
Ooo-oh what a feeling!
But hey, it’s all good so keep up the good work – TTAC rocks.
The Acura RL is not even a blip on the luxury car radar screen. Gm is getting better and better. They know that they are starring death in the face and are reacting accordingly. As auto enthusiasts we should not be actively rooting for the demise of ANY brand, especially if we’re all left driving appliances…err I mean Toyotas.
After reading all of the blogs, from strong positive to neutral, I think the biggest fear one would have about buying the new buick is resale. If it’s a soft product traditionally on a good day, what will it be like if Gm trashes the name or the entire buick franchise? If you bought a lesabre or park avenue last year, gm took some more money out of your used value by trashing the names. If you bought an olds say aurora, keep driving it until it owes you nothing. Do you really think lexus, toyota, nissan drivers have the same fear of no more brand in the future? I think not, and it is a good reason to go with the companies that continue to stand behind their buyers.
I think not, and it is a good reason to go with the companies that continue to stand behind their buyers.
Stand behind their buyers AND refrain from dumping product in the rental car market. That reminds me, the airport on Price Edward Island had a small rental car lot with a red Lucerne ready to go.
Recently I’ve seen many Lucernes and LaCrosses at airport lots (Houston, Boston, P.E.I.) and many people’s judgements (positive or negative) come from renting them. That’s fine for a Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6, Ford Fusion, but Buick should be better. I expect more from Buick.
Dumping the “Premium American Motorcar” marketing, Lutz said it himself, Buick needs to be the American Lexus.
How many ES’ do you see at Hertz?
Hate to say it but Buick has better reliability then Toyota…
-agreed with espo19047 on the reliability..
-you cant really complain with the lines on the lucerne, as they may be bland, but arent really misplaced or ugly lines…. the ES on teh other hand, is bland, and still manages to have awkward proportions.. and how many ES’s do you see period?? around my neck of the woods, the only lexus’s i see are the IS and GS, or couple generations old sedans..
-about the whole high-power/FWD debate, toyota’s V6 is only what, 7hp short of the northstar
-the underpinnings, however related to the aurora and riviera’s they may look since they are all G-body’s, is MUCH MUCH more closely related to the cadillac DTS..
-about the Enclave, i guess your just dissapointed that buick would actually be building a better RX330 with more of just about everything..
-and to be honest, yes GM can make the car lightyears better, yes they lack in many categories, yes they can do just about a billion things to make the company better… at least they know about their faults and are (Slowly, but steadily) fixing their problems, rather than some companies who are ever expanding and think themselves invincible in man ways.. but for me, GM gives me the most of what i want in a car (obviously not alll) and gives back to my university, my family, my community and my province more than any other automaker ever could.. and thats something you can say that lexus (and toyota as well) could never be
“How many ES’ do you see at Hertz? ”
I had a new Camry rental from Avis last week….
JakeRyan1974…
Looking to hire a guy looking for a big break in marketing? heheeh
Sajeev…very witty writeup. Increasingly, when I get into strange cars, I wonder “what would the TTAC guys say about this car?” My father (60…buick’s prime target) asked me what I thought the other day about the LaCrosse, and I told him the Lucerne looks better, and then tried to steer him towards a hyundai azera or TL, but I may tell him to drive one and see what he thinks. They certainly look more stylish than anything that buick has done in a decade…
Someone above said the Acura RL is merely a blip on the luxury car radar…I agree, and I think it’s better that way. That car is impressive. So it doesn’t have a V8…boo hoo. I want to know where all these people who crave all this power (me included) are using it. So I can sprint to 65 on the highway to set the cruise control a split second sooner? So I can hit the brakes harder and throw anything I have in the trunk at the back of the rear bench between stop signs. The RL is a sweet vehicle…very refined, very well done. It’s not all flash, and it’s not the superstar that Lexus is in that price segment, but the fact that I see less of those than Lexus or lower line Benz barges makes them all the more appealing to me.
The horsepower wars are in full effect, and the marketing is clouding everything. My father has been riding around in my TSX with me a great it recently, and until I had the hood up a week or so back filling the washer fluid, he had no idea it was a 4 cyl. Sure, it’s not the fastest car of the line, but a V6 isn’t everything…nor is RWD.
For all you RWD nuts (and I tend to agree to an extent, being primarily a RWD driver for 10 years of Chevy SUVs), I challenge you to go check out a TSX, TL, or RL, and tell me that FWD can’t be satisfying, if not handling as good as a 325i (in the TSX’s case).
In fact…Cap’n Farago has my email addy…drop me a line. If any of your writers are in Pittsburgh, they can swing by and drive my TSX for a review – I’ll throw a few steaks on the grill for them too…we can talk about how my neighbor swears every year cause he bought a RWD-only SUV and can’t get up our hill worth a crap in the winter, while the other neighbor in a FWD civic passes him…
You’re obviously too young to remember the ’64s, the look of which can still instantlytransport me from home in suburban Boston to the Southern California of the Beach Boys (but go to motorlegends.com, click on “people and cars,†and among the slides will be a guy with his ‘64), or the ‘53, Lyndon Johnson’s old car (at motorlegends.com, click on CarToons, and scroll down). Next to these, the Lucerne would have all the charisma of a microwave.
Yep, the `60’s were a bit ahead of my time but I see the `64’s ranked on Automobile’s 25 most-beautiful cars list (and it, along with the Olds Toronado were very attractive). I still think the Lucerne has some nice lines and I like the look. With a little luck, this is the first attempt to recapture some of that innate elegance from GM’s Golden Age.
jt87:
and how many ES’s do you see period?? around my neck of the woods, the only lexus’s i see are the IS and GS, or couple generations old sedans..
I see about 10x more ES 350’s (the new one) than I do Lucernes…which explains Lexus’ lock on the top of the luxury car sales chart.
-the underpinnings, however related to the aurora and riviera’s they may look since they are all G-body’s, is MUCH MUCH more closely related to the cadillac DTS..
So, unlike a $20,000 Camry, the $40,000 DTS’ front subframe wiggles and jiggles on rough pavement too?
-about the Enclave, i guess your just dissapointed that buick would actually be building a better RX330 with more of just about everything..
That remains to be seen, thankyaverymuch. Unless you snagged a prototype Enclave and know something I don’t. :-)
-GM gives me the most of what i want in a car (obviously not alll) and gives back to my university, my family, my community and my province more than any other automaker ever could..
No question, the Detroit brands give more to North America. IMO, given the political climate, that will become a strong selling point in the future.
I challenge you to go check out a TSX, TL, or RL, and tell me that FWD can’t be satisfying, if not handling as good as a 325i (in the TSX’s case).
Ronin: I wish I was in PA, because there’s no way a high-powered (let’s say over 250hp) FWD sedan has the satisfaction of a sporty RWD sedan (much less a 3-series) with its threat of torque steer.
You can get similar skidpad or slalom figures, but put the power down mid corner in a FWD and its asking for more of that hot hand-on-tiller action, not to mention possibly throwing the front wheels into traction loss and unleashing massive understeer.
Course this is all in theory, and I am a frequent flyer. :-)
Sajeev Mehta:
I see about 10x more ES 350’s (the new one) than I do Lucernes…which explains Lexus’ lock on the top of the luxury car sales chart.
-I guess its apparent that we live in verrryyy different parts of the forest
So, unlike a $20,000 Camry, the $40,000 DTS’ front subframe wiggles and jiggles on rough pavement too?
-Toyota obviously puts much much more development money into the midsize camry platform (top seller for toyota) than GM does for their full size FWD platform… I’ll admit that the ES350 is better at what it does than the Lucerne is, but in the end, the Lucerne still appeals to a slightly different audience.. but then also the Lucerne could very well be better at what it does (which is apparent in the demographics of shoppers for the Lucerne)
in short, I think that no matter what GM wants the Lucerne to be (i.e. ES fighter), its not. in my personal opinion it is more of an Avalon competitor (of which the Lucerne is more comparable to, especially in sales). Given a competitive platform, a more competitive base engine, and slightly more modern and agressive styling (cough cough WM Statesman cough cough) then I think a car like the Lucerne could be a definite winner for any shopper looking in the given category. But for now, the Lucerne still has limited appeal to the rest of the market.
The early 1980s were actually a very good time for Buick and Olds. The earned record or near-record market shares during the early and mid 1980s, largely at the expense of Chevrolet.
A big problem with the CXL is that, lacking the front foglamps and 18s of the CXS, it’s front overhang looks huge. Yes, there’s just as much overhang with the CXS, but it doesn’t look nearly as large.
“The horsepower wars are in full effect…” – Ronin317
GM has declared a horsepower war because it’s the only war they can fight. They can’t engineer a better FWD car and they didn’t have time to engineer a decent RWD car, so they stuff a V8 into a FWD car and tell their ad agency to turn up the heat on key phrases like “V8” and, ummm… “V8.” Their base responds to this like a cop to a donut and it holds off the defections. Some of them. For a while.
But it won’t win back anybody who bought a nice Toy-onda with an I4 or a luxury Toy-onda with a V6 and found that they don’t need a V8 after all. The phrases that these people respond to are now, “resale value,” “reliability,” “mpg” “dohc/vvt” and some other phrases GM does not recognize.
GM must have the only luxury brand with a 4-speed auto. I can well imagine that their bean-counters and egineers arrived at the conclusion that a 5-speed or 6-speed would only improve 0-60’s by such-and-such or fuel economy by so-and-so but, while GM is telling the customer that a V8 is better than a V6 because, obviously, 8>6, they’re also stuck trying to explain how 4=5 and 4=6.
dhathewa:
-surely, a v8 is not needed in a car like the ES or Camry, which is a midsize, but try putting the 2.4 Toyota motor into the Avalon and see how well it pulls (if it can). but in a fullsize ‘luxury’ car, why would someone ‘settle/be limited to’ the V6 when they have the option and the money for the V8
-resale value takes time to rebuild, not just an instant factor
-please dont knock the 4spd autos for reliability (and you might as well add in teh Northstar and the 3800 as well), as they may be ‘low tech’, but do its intended task efficiently well
-dohc is overrated… more moving parts, heavier engine, larger exterior engine dimensions, and the like (i could go on for days)
-im pretty sure all engines will go VVT for GM once the 3800/3400, the current gmt-800 trucks, the 4300 are phased out.. Gm also is the only company able to put VVT on a pushrod engine, so old tech or not, that does deserve some kudos
-too bad the Bentley Arnage isnt still in production… i guess 6.75L of turbocharged pushrod V8 goodness flowing thorugh a silky 4spd was not good enough for you
– i guess you don’t understand that new designs (like the new 6spd trans) arent just made overnight, and do take a long time to ramp up production (considering the amount of uses for the transmission)
while GM is telling the customer that a V8 is better than a V6 because, obviously, 8>6, they’re also stuck trying to explain how 4=5 and 4=6.
Funny you mention that! One of the Buick guys (managers) had a discussion with engineers about the Lucerne’s 4-speed, and asked me to come to their conclusion: the Northstar is just fine and dandy with a four-cog tranny.
Granted its okay for most traditional Buick owners, but its out of pace with imports making similar horsepower with 1-2 more gears. I told my host about my time with a 5-speed Lincoln Aviator, and how with 302hp and a short 2nd gear that SUV would haul ass and terrify its occupants. Crazy fun.
I’ll admit that the ES350 is better at what it does than the Lucerne is, but in the end, the Lucerne still appeals to a slightly different audience.. but then also the Lucerne could very well be better at what it does (which is apparent in the demographics of shoppers for the Lucerne)
JT: my problem with this statement is Buick’s current nightmare. They are losing sales every year, and their demographics are likely shopping for caskets along with Buicks. (ok, that was harsh, but you see my point)
Lexus is #1. They sell tons of cars to all age groups, almost every buyer is rabidly loyal, their cars have nearly faultless driving dynamics, and people like the way they look and feel.
Let’s be real: the Lucerne has to be better than a Lexus to survive.
And as far as an Avalon, its pretty easy to option it out so it’ll sell for the same as a Lexus ES. There is so much overlap in this segment its downright scary.
-Sad but true about Buick’s current demographic… Many are former pontiac/chevy owners looking for their ‘last car’, which indeed is a problem. Now for many, a Lucerne would be an ideal car for their ‘last car’ as reliability is great (from relative G-bodies), it is essentially what they are looking for at the pricepoint that can fit their budgets. For everyone else, go to Cadillac or Lexus or BMW or practically every other lux/entry lux company.
-Buick does need to be better than lexus to survive, to a certain extent. They need a car that betters the ES and avalon (which sizewise should be the next gen LaCrosse), a car that betters the GS (the next gen Lucerne/Stateseman), and a SUV that betters the RX (which is coming, crossing fingers for the Enclave)
-Lexus has proven to be #1, granted. And buick can never really be #1, period. Like you said, there is way too much overlap, and that is what GM needs to address.
-Things are not where they need to be for every division in GM, mainly Buick and Pontiac. Time will tell if they can be differentiated enough to live on. I sure hope so, as I am an avid Pontiac fan (owned nothing but), and plan to be for years to come
“-surely, a v8 is not needed in a car like the ES or Camry, which is a midsize, but try putting the 2.4 Toyota motor into the Avalon and see how well it pulls (if it can). but in a fullsize ‘luxury’ car, why would someone ’settle/be limited to’ the V6 when they have the option and the money for the V8” – JT87
JT87, you ARE GM’s base. You clearly understand 8 > 6. Unfortunately, Toyota has moved on to the New Math and the V6 Avalon is actually quicker than the V8 Lucerne. There’s no “settle/be limited to” involved here.
In fact, Volvo wrings 300hp out of a 2.5L I5. Are S80 owners settling for something less than they should?
Technically, you may be right about the characteristics of DOHC engines but, as far as packaging goes, the DOHC engines in my Toyotas all seem fairly compact and all have surprising pep for their displacement (especially the 3.0L DOHC-VVTi V6 in my ’01).
If I ever go looking for a luxury car, my key phrases will include “DOHC,” “resale value,” “mpg,” “power,” “luxury” and “reliability” but won’t include “V8.” Whether or not my key phrases include “Buick” is for GM to decide.
Lucerne was (perhaps still is) the name of milk marketed by Safeway stores. It’s for people who cannot afford a brand name. Safeway’s soda brand was always marketed under the “Cragmont” name, but don’t tell that to Buick product planners.
studedude: Lucerne is an entire line of dairy products. They also make off-brand sodas and bottled waters.
http://www.lucernefoods.com/
And since you mentioned it…
Buick PR made a point to remind me that the Lucerne was named after their 1994-ish concept car of the same name. (You know the one, it sorta inspired the last-generation Buick Park Avenue) It was a nice concept car, but that name was better off forgotten. MUCH better off forgotten.
dhathewa:
-thats a good example with the vovlo S80. theoretical situation here: same price, same fuel economy, same performance, same pretty muhc everything, woudl you take the 2.5T I5 or the 4.4 V8? My personal tastes would direct me to the 4.4, but there are obvious arguements either way
-in my personal opinion, luxury is a very easy way of saying “i have more than you”, and one of the easiest (not always better) ways for a car to ‘have more’ is by having a bigger engine with more cylinders and power.
-now, if i would be looking for a luxury car, i would be looking for real-world performance, feel, mpg, etc (some sources on these subjects aren’t always perfect and shouldn’t always be taken as gospel), not necessarily specific qualifying terms such as V8 or DOHC or RWD or the like … and let my research take care of the value and costs related
-Avalon is quicker for many reasons (0-60 anyways, not tha buyers would be racing them at nights haha): 6-speed, smaller car, more modern chassis, less torque steer, and good on the Avalon for these advantages.
Avalon is quicker for many reasons (0-60 anyways, not tha buyers would be racing them at nights haha): 6-speed, smaller car, more modern chassis, less torque steer, and good on the Avalon for these advantages.
Aside from overall length, the Avalon isn’t much smaller than the Lucerne. Interior dimensions are similar, unless you’re tall enough to need the Lucerne’s extra 0.7″ of headroom.
But the Avalon is lighter with better fuel economy. I haven’t driven a new Toyota V6, but I expect it will have the same or more torque steer as the Buick, as the Northstar has a flat, de-tuned powerband while the Toyota has gotta be peaky with VVT-i engine design.
^^ Agreed
A bit of perspective: for the demographic who historically purchase Buicks, a soft ride is preferable to a hard, stiff one because of pain–arthritis, stiffness, cancer, etc. My 50-year-old father has colon cancer and was in utter agony after riding in his sister’s BMW 535 with sport suspension. Same with his other sister’s G35. His 2004 Silverado for him is soft enough where he can tolerate trips longer than 20 minutes. To me, it’s floaty, disconnected and frightening when I depress the brake halfway before I feel any decleration.
Buick has an opportunity to cater to this niche and pick up the soon-to-depart Town Car slack instead of trying (and failing) to appeal to the youngsters. The retiring baby-boomers are going to be traveling, visiting grandchildren, and golfing with their buddies. A large, luxurious highway cruiser with a big trunk will meet their needs.
P.S. How much did Buick pay Infiniti for the Q45 front end?
-I just find it odd that you are comparing an ’04 Silverado to a BMW 535 and an Infinity G35… its like comparing apples to sandwiches. Tucks tend to drive in a more “floaty, disconnected and frightening” way than sport sedan/coupes do.
-I think the front end of the Q45 carries more ‘character’ than the Lucerne, so you should really be asking Kia how much they paid for the Q45 front end to use it on the Magentis…. also, if evevery company had to pay for using other companies’ styling cues, Toyota and Hyundai would be royally screwed!!!!!
I wasn’t comparing the truck to the sports cars. My point was that the Buick’s not-sporting ways was comparable to the Silverado and that that was more tolerable for my dad. But that’s just his opinion (and that old joke doesn’t work for him because they sewed his a$$hole up when he had a colostomy).
Don’t know, nor care, what the Magentis is, but you’re right about Hyundai’s familiar design cues. The XG300 reminded me of a second-gen Q or first-gen I30. And, note, it’s spelled Infiniti.
-Sorry to hear about your dad, I obviously didn’t know that….My 24 year old sister is in kind of the same boat
-I didn’t even realize I spelt Infiniti wrong until I looked at it now
-The Kia Magentis is basically the Kia version of the XG350, and the new one’s front end is a dirt cheap knockoff of the Q45 (for whoever does care)