When we added a comments section to The Truth About Cars, I was determined that TTAC would not become what Jalopnik’s Mike Spinelli called “a picnic over a cesspool.” To that end, TTAC instituted a zero tolerance policy towards comments that flame/insult the website, its authors or fellow commentators. I’ve sent dozens of emails to offenders, explaining why their comment(s) were edited or deleted. I’ve also permanently banned seventeen subscribers from posting. I believe this policy has been a success. But I want to give you a chance to publicly vent your feelings on our editorial policies without fear of retribution. And here it is.
Given our “death/suicide watch” coverage, it’s no surprise that some readers continue to believe TTAC is biased against The Big Two Point Five. Some feel so strongly they consider us anti-American. First, I would remind these critics that the site contains both positive reviews of domestic product (Fusion, Navigator, GT500, Corvette, SSR, Outlook, etc.) and negative reviews of transplant vehicles (Tribeca, M5, Cayenne Turbo S, etc.). Second, criticizing American companies is not un-American— especially when you’re trying to alert these organizations to the dangers they face. If you beg to differ, well, differ away.
Meanwhile, anyone who wants to forward a more positive perspective on Detroit’s fortunes is invited to submit one or more 800-word editorials justifying their optimism. We’d also welcome any writer willing to chronicle the triumphs and tragedies of foreign or transplanted automakers (Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, etc.). In any case, rest assured that TTAC’s always open to editorials on any automotive subject, including opposing viewpoints. And, in our defense, our Detroit-centric coverage reflects limited resources rather than ambitions.
TTAC also stands accused of hypocrisy. Specifically, my editorial calling Bob Lutz an idiot had many wondering why I felt free to make such an undignified statement when they’re prohibited from making similar remarks about the site, its authors of other commentators. At the risk of making an invidious distinction, TTAC’s zero tolerance anti-flaming regs do NOT apply to the editorials themselves. Our essayists’ job: stimulate vigorous debate. If I/they must use hyperbole and deliberately provocative prose to achieve these goals, by God I/they will. If this double standard rankles, well, now’s the time to say so.
I’d also like to know if we’ve got our editorial mix right. Generally speaking, TTAC’s publishing a single piece per day, alternating between rants and reviews. I experimented for a bit, running my Jalopnik precasts in addition to the normal editorial posts. Would you like these audio features back again? What about QOTW (Question of the Week)? While we’re at it, should TTAC resurrect the “as read by” audio on the editorials and reviews? Do you want to see accompanying video, or are we best off sticking with writing?
Those are my concerns. But I don’t want to frame this debate. Let slip the dogs of war. Don’t hold back. Tell us what we’re doing wrong or, if you’re feeling charitable, what we’re doing right. No holds barred. No limits, save [a bit of] linguistic decency. And one more thing. Don’t think I get a thrill out of banning people from commenting here. As you might have guessed, I may not share these miscreants' opinions, but I share their passion, frustration and anger. Clearly, they don’t understand or appreciate the boundaries of civilized discourse. But it's equally obvious that they have strong beliefs. For that, and nothing else, I admire them.
I don’t think it’s necessary to post up the precasts because I think most readers read Jalopnik anyway but maybe have a tab up top or something to bring up the precasts? I think the one thing the site is missing is pictures taken of the review cars, I personally don’t care if their taken with a camera phone as long as we get an idea of what the reviewer saw. The press shots are always way too overly optimistic. Other than that you guys seem like a bunch of smart decent people so you’ll make it work.
I remember the suggestion of a Point:Counterpoint co-review where 2 reviewers take opposite sides of the coin, I think it was in reference to that 500hp Ford with the live axle.
My suggestion would be a point:counterpoint on the deathwatch series. It was be interesting to read the views of someone with something positive to say about the now midsized 2.5.
Sometimes I think a little more ribbing between the commentators would add a little life to the comment sections.
Other than that, I think what prompted this was Jay’s article earlier today. Some people went overboard about a passage in it, likening that to child prostitution. When I read that passage (while it was there) I didn’t get that image at all, but what I actually didn’t like about that article was the first few sentences, which fly in the face of how I was raised – namely: if you got it in life, you be thankful and you don’t show it much, – and so if someone walked up to me and said the first line of article as an introduction (i.e. “Hello. I have a buttload of expensive cars”), I would walk away with a very bad impression of that person.
I’m curious to see what the readers think. Really, I am.
But, in the meantime, I want to know where Farago got a picture of George Washington and Marilyn Monroe driving a Lincoln Continental through the mountains in bad weather. I mean, that’s just crazy wicked wild.
Besides making an ass of myself once in a while… I dont have any issues with the site. Please play through.
Well you asked,other than a of couple of guys that were complete idiots I will betcha 90% of the banned were pro domestic.
I think I’ve been warned 10 times maybe 2 justified.Al pharzon was the best writer on the domestic side, he broke the rules and got axed.[I knew it was coming] How about gear head?or 300c were they as bad as say rastus?
Luther hates unions and will tell ya so.I’m a union man but I read and enjoy all of Luthers comments.
Lets talk about bias, my nomination comment [the Smart car] for the TWAT got deleted, not sold in the USA ,fair enough.
Two comments later somebody rips the crap out of the SSR it wasn.t sold in 06 but the comment stayed
The idiot comment was totally uncalled for, and beneath a writer of RFs caliber.
Sajeev another great writer lets his anti domestic bias leak into every review.[A flaming ball of garbage?]
I love to read TTAC I’ve been a reader since day one or two
I do agree with the anti flaming policy [I’m so computer illerate I had to ask my daughter what flaming was]I don’t agree with censoring anybody who points out the anti domestic bias on this site.
I don’t mind the debate on the pros and cons of one vehicle vs. another At the TTAC the debate is stacked against the pro domestic folk to the point that its becoming tiresome and boring.
I would love to hear from montes,and gearhead455 and al pharzon 300c and all of the pro domestic folks who do believe that there is a future for the 2.5 in North America.
And thank you for once letting me voice my true opinion
While I rarely comment on this site (though I read it on a regular basis), my personal opinion is that TTAC’s current policies seem to work the best of all the various auto-related sites. Not allowing comments at all reduces the number of readers, because when people read an article they don’t agree with they tend to stop visiting a site…but if they and others like them can respond in a rational way and explain their viewpoints, that makes the site much more interesting. Or, to put it another way, the comments section is a little like an accident on the expressway…while you might complain about the traffic, you still take a look as you drive by.
However, if the comments section is completely unregulated it tends to alienate some readers because it isn’t worth their effort to post. If I’m taking time out of my busy day at work to surf the ‘net, I don’t really want to spend my time arguing with some poster named ‘earwax’ that’s probably a 13-year-old kid who has never even driven a car. Been there, done that…and things like that make you take a step back and reconsider your priorities. (BTW, I don’t mean to insult 13-year-olds or posters that may or may not be named ‘earwax’)
I think the underlying problem is that sites like this one tend to attract people from all over the country (and the world), and from different socioeconomic groups. These people would not normally interact with each other, and tend to have a difficult time understanding each other’s viewpoints. As humans, I think that we tend to automatically assume that others feel the same way we do…and when they don’t, we have this overwhelming desire to make them see the world from our own (obviously superior) perspective. So, we tend to argue…but it can still be done in a civilized manner.
As far as additional Detroit-centric coverage, while I’m an automotive engineer living in Michigan I happen to lead an engineering team that focuses on Honda…so my knowledge of the internal workings of the “Big 2.5” is anecdotal at best. However, with the number of readers I would think that there would be some who would be willing to share articles from that perspective. However, they might be reluctant to share their experiences because of the likely response they would get from any sort of “pro-2.5” article…while the site itself may not be biased, you have to admit that an article praising Ford or GM is likely to get a far more negative response than one praising Honda or Toyota.
Plus, the other contributors have set a high standard for clever wordplay – and this might scare off new contributors who may feel they need to imitate that style. Heck, I’m an engineer…and communicating with other humans isn’t even in my job description, let alone attempting to construct clever turns of phrase. However, if you ever need a napkin doodle of a technical subject, I’m your man.
I don’t have time to sit at the computer and read TTAC, so I print the articles to read later. But no matter what method I use, I can’t print the comments. What’s the reason for that?
RF, while you might wish to set different rules for the tone of comments and the tone of editorials and rants, a more noble act would be to set the same rules for both. Even with a rambunctious site like TTAC, any personal attack on a named individual should be off limits. Personal attacks add nothing to the value of an editorial or a rant and are unnecessary. TTAC will lose nothing by adopting consistent rules across the board.
Thank you for inviting our opinions.
In defense of the “double standard,” it’s really quite simple:
Bright line distinctions (you are allowed 10 items or fewer on the express line, you cannot post profane things in the comment section of TTAC) always end up excluding some people unfairly or allowing others unfairly. That’s just how it is, it’s how our legal system tends to work, and it’s the only viable policy on a website. It’s impossible to police every single person and post by analyzing their actions, their comment’s content, their motives, and so on, and making a weird holistic evaluation of whether or not the comment and user should stay or go.
The rule is very clear and therefore easy to follow. There’s no question of unfair treatment of one person over another; anyone criticizing the authors, flaming, or insulting others is sanctioned.
Double standard? Maybe, but this isn’t a liberal democracy. Even if it were, free speech is subject to time, place, manner, and obscenity restrictions. If the comments section (probably the best of almost all automotive websites and certainly the best of the blogs) is going to function at all, it needs to be regulated. I hate to be the Nixonian voice of the establishment, but if we want our near-utopia of vehicular discourse to remain that way, this is how it will be.
Sajeev another great writer lets his anti domestic bias leak into every review.[A flaming ball of garbage?]
Mikey: when Detroit makes world-class cars they’ll get positive reviews. For the sake of the comments section, people need to realize that just because a writer dislikes the current parade of sub-par (flaming ball of garbage) offerings from the Big 2.5 doesn’t mean he has an anti domestic bias. My garage is proof of that, but that’s irrelevant.
Then again, the Camry is made in America and I gave it a negative review, so you might be on to something.
“But, in the meantime, I want to know where Farago got a picture of George Washington and Marilyn Monroe driving a Lincoln Continental through the mountains in bad weather. I mean, that’s just crazy wicked wild.”
If I’m not mistaken, that is the album cover from Little Feat’s “Feats Don’t Fail Me Now,” which contains the track “Skin It Back.”
Nice.
That’s a good album (listening to “Skin it Back” on Amazon right now)…nice job!!!
I’ve been reading this site for the past six months or so and thoroughly enjoy many of these articles, and in many cases, the comments even more, and I signed up today so I can partake :)
I think there might be a slight anti-domestic bias in some of the editorials, however, in many cases this prompts commentators to give positive viewpoints, thus serving as something of a conversation. Without Mr. Farago’s comment monitoring, TTAC might end up with something like Left Lane News’ comments, quite the horror story.
I do agree with what wangvicous said earlier about the press photo’s with reviews, I’d much prefer those taken by the writers.
Personally, I never listened to the audio and just read the articles and comments. I also feel that videos would dilute TTAC, since the editorial/review is only half the battle, the other half being the comments… and video’s just would feel right. Although, feel free to suggest that to the friends at Jalopnik.
I think that videos would greatly contribute to TTAC as a whole. The ability to see the authors in the vehicles they are reviewing would make it possible for every reader to truly understand what they are talking about in their reviews.
I do not comment here often, in fact this is probably only my third or fourth post, but I love reading all the debate in the comments. As others have said it provides a whole new element to the reviews/editorials that would be worthwhile to read on thier own. In regards to the apparent anti-domestic attitude of the site I am all for it. You cannot please every one so speak what you see as the truth and let the people discuss it.
You only have to look at the the Detroit News’s Auto Talk to see how a handfull of venom and bile commenters have ruined what used to be a pretty nice forum with some interesting posts from people inside the auto business.
Right up front, I’d like to see (or rather, hear) the “as read by” recordings again… Not only is it good to listen to while multitasking, it carries all the inflections and emotions of the author. Besides, with many authors’ tendencies towards wild and outrageous analogy it can be fine entertainment as well…
I’d also like to second the request for photos of the cars as-tested whenever possible… If I want to see what the *manufacturer* thinks the vehicle looks like, I can go to their websites and press kits… I think it’s also valuable to make particular note of the trim levels of the vehicles reviewed and take it into serious consideration when critiquing the cars – most review models are highly-spec’d and that can severely alter perceptions. All things that encourage transparency are good for the readers.
Asfor the “tough love” TTAC writers tend to give to the Big 3, well, it hasn’t bothered me too much, but then again, I agree with a lot of what is said… Some of the commentary in the deathwatches goes a bit on the excessive side – particularly when one devolves with mentions of “Rabid Rick” etc. It’s clear what the author thinks Mr. Wagoner (or whoever he’s profiling) is doing wrong, but the article and the argument are not strengthened by attacks on the person (as opposed to the performance).
This website is great particularly because it is one of the few places out there that offers reviews influenced only by the biases of the author and not by the coddling of the manufacturers (as is almost *always* the case in the print-mags). The ability for its authors to sound off however they see fit is what makes it valuable. Further, flame wars attacking the individual *or* its bias are not useful for changing anyone’s mind about the subject. There is no reason why a commenter can provide a compelling counterpoint if the information is out there. Can someone clarify the problem for me?
I appreciate the fact that Mr. Farago takes the time to monitor the comments section. I have had to restrain myself from trying to break up a few verbal wrasslin’ matches during my time at TTAC. I am a high school teacher, so it comes naturally to me.
And if anyone is qualified to comment on the general lack of civility in our society, whether it is on a blog or anywhere else, I feel I am one. And I’m 32 years old, so please dispense with any preconceived notions.
Those who choose to dominate the comments section with pissing matches aren’t going to care what I think, so I stay out of them. If they did, they wouldn’t waste my time insinuating how small each other’s penises are. But that is their right, as pathetic as it may be. And I don’t have to read the comments section in the first place.
I urge Mr. Farago to continue applying Justice Potter Stewart’s articulation of obscenity as a benchmark: “I know it (flame/insult) when I see it.” I think the policy works very well.
With regard to an anti-American bias, I doubt that you would get the quality of writing that you do at TTAC with narrow-minded writers limited to an anti-American agenda. These guys have too much fun doing what they do. Let’s all lighten up a bit and let them have their hard-earned artistic integrity. If their opinions occasionally offend, stick up for your point of view and call it a day.
For example, I don’t see Mr. Mehta’s anti-American bias at all. I recall him talking about racing an old T-Bird, driving or coveting a mint Mark VIII, and generally expressing a latent affection for Detroit big iron. To me, he sounds like someone who could teach me how to really enjoy my Mercury Marauder (that I don’t own yet).
But someone else may think he doesn’t like American cars. Sometimes perfectly reasonable people get completely different impressions of the same thing.
We used to teach each other that this type of difference in perception is a good thing; a particularly American strength, and a distinct privilege we enjoy in this country.
If that is to continue, we have to be a little bit savvier about our differences. The world has become a very complicated place in the last five years, and now — more than ever — is not the time to retreat into another Stone Age of discrimination and pettiness.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
I want to nip one bad thing in the butt! No offense to SherbornSean, but puh-leeeze do not institute some form of Point:Counterpoint as a matter of policy or regular feature.
These invariably come across as disingenous or “forced”. Often artificial. Maybe there’s agreement on something. Maybe there isn’t an obvious or necessary counterpoint…
… most importantly, there are likely many counterpoints, and thus TTAC’s excellent format. After each article, this is what I see, the variety of counterpoints, some less “counter” than others.
Keep up the great site.
I like the format of your site just the way it is. If I want to see video I’ll watch TV. As far as content is concerned, I would like to see occasional interviews with folks in the business; not the big shots, just the people that do the work.
I would like the podcasts back for the simple reason that my browser of choice (Opera) won’t open them on Jalopnik. (Selfish, I know)
The other reason to do so is that if so inclined, we can all comment on TTAC, wheras those of us without an invite cannot do so at Jalopnik.
A gold-star to CAHIBOstep (bad pun) for his (her?) post.
I would like to add one point about the “anti-American” thing:
Like any “anti-something” statement (“anti-French”, “anti-Black”, “anti-surfer”, “anti-dentite“), it’s the argument that says “I have nothing useful to say, and I feel uncomfortable, so I will use this ‘shut up’ argument”.
What the he77 does one mean by calling a reviewer “anti-American”? Are you saying then that the GM Minivans are inspired vehicles? That Ford did NOT lose a glabzillion dollars? Then say that, not “anti-American”…
Finally, to emphasize one of the points made by CAHIBOstep, I’d argue that there is little that is less anti-American than calling someone “anti-American”.
I guess this post makes me “anti-Stupid”.
Of all of the automobile web sites I read, TTAC has the most conscise articles (darn 800 word limit) and the most intelligent postings. This site is a breath of fresh air. I do not believe that there is a bias against the big 2.5, just against unacceptable products. Perhaps we are connoisseurs practicing tough love.
I’m an infrequent poster, but I feel that this is my time to speak up. I’m a resident of the Detroit area, a life long car enthusiast, and the third generation in my family to work in the domestic auto industry (big 2.5). So you pretty much know where this is headed……
I find the Death/suicide watches very hard to read. Although I realize most or all of the information that is presented is truthful, it is the tone and tenor of the articles that leads the reader to believe that the Detroit automotive scene is run by trained monkeys. Not all is perfect in Detroit, I will agree. It pains me to see 30 years of poor decisions made by the Detroit 3. I will also agree that some great cars are produced by foreign branded automakers. What seems to be ignored here is the fact that the Americans are making significant progress toward making great cars. RF said at one point that the ‘perception gap is crap’ or something like that. I, for one would like to get some clarification on this one. If you are comparing the GM TWAT minivans with the Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna, I would say that this is correct. However, this does not apply across the board. I would say the Ford Fusion and Saturn Aura stand up quite well to the Glorified Accord and Camry. The Mustang, Corvette, Jeep Wrangler, Chrysler LXs, Solstice/Sky, CTS, etc, etc, are great vehicles wearing American badges. Why can’t the deathwatch series at least acknowledge that there is still some good coming out of Detroit, and much more is to come? Even Peter DeLorenzo of autoextremist.com, one of GM’s harshest critics when his website debuted in ’99, has at least acknowledged that Detroit is turning itself around with decent product. Not all is perfect yet, but things are getting much better, very quickly.
OK, off my soapbox. I must acknowledge that the rest of this website is very well done, with talented writers and entertaining articles. The reviews are often harsh, but like all reviews, they must be taken with a grain of salt. Robert, this is your website and you will write what you feel. I have learn a lot from it and return here daily for my ‘fix’. But please, have a little mercy on us Detroit guys. We’re dyin’ here!
I do think it’d be great if when you opened an article, you could read it without the comments visible. Mostly for the sake of the scroll bar.
I appreciate the editors’ efforts to monitor the readers’ comments. Make them worth reading. They add value to the site if they’re insightful.
Given our “death/suicide watch” coverage, it’s no surprise that some readers continue to believe TTAC is biased against The Big Two Point Five. Some feel so strongly they consider us anti-American.
Funny, when I read Jay’s article this morning, I was going to post – sarcastically – how he is showing his anti-American bias by leaving out several great US-built cars such as, say, the G6 or Grand Marquis, the latter of which has velvety-smooth V8 power and excellent build quality, and will last for hundreds of thousands of miles, all of which makes Jay’s search for his elusive 12-cyl a waste of time.
Such a comment, although in jest, is in keeping with a lot of the more absurd comments that are posted here on a daily basis. It was to serve as a parody of what they sound like to most of us.
Pro-domestic, anti-domestic (is there really such a thing?)…that’s the issue, isn’t it?
Who is anti-domestic anyway?
EVERY car guy wants the American car companies to turn around, to restore profitability and to once again become the Marks of Excellence and the Standards of the World. Aren’t you as frustrated as I that the American car companies haven’t built a truly world-class car in over 3 decades? And if I could be so bold as to speak for RF, JL, SJ, JS, WM and the others [sorry, couldn’t remember everybody’s initials off-hand], we would all love to be able to report that some world-class Chevy, Cadillac or Lincoln could blow away a BMW. That would be cool.
But the bottom line is this – This isn’t politics, this isn’t religion…this is a frank discussion of cars! Everybody’s entitled to their own opinion. But whether you agree with the editorial conclusions posted here or not, TTAC presents a fresh and unique perspective of the auto industry that can’t be found anywhere else.
And, like it or not: as we’re in America, RF has the absolute right to censor posts, no apologies necessary. [Likewise, web-surfers have the absolute right to not visit this website if they so desire.]
If you are here just looking for another rubber approval stamp on the what the Big 2.5 are up to, there are plenty of media sources that tout the relative “successes” of the US car industry just for you. For example, look at the plethora of auto industry experts that are gushing over the new Aura (another in a long line of American “almost” cars) like it’s the greatest thing since the Model-T — despite its plasticky interior, its ugly G6 butt (badge engineering anyone?), and those silly little GM badges adorning its flanks. By contrast, TTAC is one of only a handful [of a growing number] of professional media outlets that give another point of view.
I, for one, can’t get enough of it.
So if you are one of those few who are offended and just can’t leave TTAC well-enough alone, well, leave TTAC well-enough alone. If that doesn’t stop you and you still can’t leave well-enough alone, then be mindful of two things: 1) many intelligent car aficionados who love TTAC are always going to think you are a little nuts for defending piss-poor business practices of failing auto manufacturing companies, and 2) like RF warned: if your flame is nasty enough, your post will be removed and you may be banned.
If that doesn’t satisfy you, remember that you can always visit GM’s Fastlane blog, or start your very own.
TTAC, simply put, is the greatest auto site on the web. To imply that there is an overarching anti-domestic bias shows an inexperience with the e-forum world. As a twenty-one year old owner of a Civic Si, I regularly encounter individuals on other sites who ignorantly claim that they “don’t want no peece of sh*t z06, cause an evo iz betta.” While Mitsubishi’s crowning glory is certainly to be commended, the utter dismissal of one of Old Glory’s finest is simply unexcusable. The intelligence and maturity displayed on this website, however, (from both writers and readers) is exemplary.
On the subject of pictures, I am a photography student who will do anything for an internship. If there is any way that I could get out and take some pics, I would be honored. I’ve done several photo essays that could be shared if anyone is interested.
Hi, I have a couple of points.
TTAC is fine as is. Robert does a fine job of monitoring and mediating. And when he cracks his whip, the offenders will know it.
I also respect his willingness to bounce and even to permanently ban repeat offenders. Other (non-car) forums that I participate in don’t do this well. Or at all, in some cases.
I don’t perceive an “anti-American” or “anti-domestic” bias in any of the editorials or reviews that I read. Keep telling the truth and that will stand on its own two legs.
The podcasts are nice for some people, but honestly, I don’t use ’em. I enjoy reading and I can read much faster than people can talk. Time is short, so I read. Yes, when listening to a podcast, AM radio, the television, you can multitask. But I’ve found that my absorption of the “audio content” is not always 100%, unless I’m just sitting there as a captive audience.
Podcasts also require additional equipment: headphones or speakers. And this can be inconvenient or disruptive at times. Either I don’t have headphones, or should I chose to listen in at lunchtime (which I never do), my speakers might bother the person working in the next cubicle.
Don’t get me wrong: If there’s a demand for podcasts, by all means do it. But I read. I enjoy it. I have a vivid imagination, so the clever turns of phrase come though to me crystal clear.
I say keep doing (with the site) as you are doing. Continue to tell the truth. And continue to be fair when dealing with the membership. And everything will be okay. Well, until GM, Ford, or DCX declare; in which case TTAC will be accused of being gleeful about it…or of having caused it. But that’s for another editorial for another time, yes?
I do not have a problem with this site’s writers or its commenters. It is also good that comments containing stupidity are deleted. I have never left a comment on this site before, but I am now because I know this will be posted.
While a many of the posters on TTAC are educated and posses excellent writng skills as well as some knowledge of cars, I think many of them lack experience with driving a wide variety of high caliber cars.
On that note I will keep this short and say that this site is just a place for a bunch of inexperienced, Toyota loving posers to vent their nonsense. I bet there has been many decent pro-domestic comments that were not posted in the past.
Well anyways I hope Toyota owners like their N.A. recall leader cars. I bet they have fun in them and feel very sporty and stylish. Oh ya Toyota doesn’t make a sports car.
Meanwhile those of us who haven’t lost our minds can buy domestic makes while they are still around. American cars are cheaper, more powerful, better looking and funner to drive on average then imports.
Too bad America has gone insane and decided that 1.5L, 11 sec 0-60, ugly Scion XB’s and Yaris’s are the thing to own.
I think you guys are doing an awesome job, and I wouldn’t really change much.
The only thing that comes to mind stems from the occasional technical battles in the comments after certain reviews (fwd vs rwd in snow, live axle vs independent, pushrod vs ohc etc). Maybe the QOTW could be used to definitively answer/discuss some of these controversies from a technical perspective?
GarthX, You know I think its funny I have an Xb and I love it. It doesn’t bother me that some people don’t like it, but why do you even care if other people like a car that you don’t like. Also why do so many people posting on auto forums think that the number of recalls are a good measure of quality? Also if it is a good measure of quality then does the fact that GM had 1.6 million recalls, Ford had 1.7 million recalls, Chrysler had 2.4 million recalls in 2006 versus 800,000 for Toyota bode bad news for Toyota or the Domestic car companies?
Robert I read this site every day and for the most part find some really interesting analysis of cars and the auto industry. I agree that no one should insult, demean or flame anyone for having a view that one disagrees with. I still believe that you should not ban or delete any postings that simply charge bias or an anti Detroit slant. Simply make those posters back up their claims and allow debate in a hopefully civilized manner.
Claims of bias against Detroit are nothing new. I was a regular reader of Car and Driver and Motor Trend from 1977 until 2000. During that entire period virtually every issue had some letter to the editor claiming bias in the reviews. Most claimed that the magazines were biased against domestics.
During that entire period of time repeatedly during the introduction of new models from Detroit, the articles would feature quotes from engineers and designers from Detroit claiming that such and such model was every bit as good as the import models. They would go on to describe new production techniques, new design processes, improved materials, decreases in tolerances, etc Detroit has been making claims of improved quality for over twenty years and during that time any publication that was critical of their products was regularly vilified as being anti domestic by Detroit loyalists.
I do have bias in my views. I think we all do. It is inevitable and simply a by product of life. How can I not have some bias against a company if I have felt they have delivered a product that was lacking in durability, while that same company boasted to the media of their improved quality. . A few years back I bought one of those supposed improved top quality domestic cars only to have it disintegrate on me. I believed their claims of improved quality. GM and Ford and their employees forget that they have been making claims of improved quality for many years. Simply make those who claim bias to back up their claim in a civil non derogatory manner.
Oh and Robert I think you calling Lutz an idiot is different from posters calling other posters idiots. No one should attack or flame anyone for their views. However if one writes a main editorial that calls the a major automotive figure an idiot whether they work for GM or Toyota etc , I believe it is proper if you can back it up.
Although I was against RF altering Jay’s Asian prostitute analogy, it doesn’t matter. You guys have a great site here.
And since when is Sajeev anti-domestic? If I remember correctly, he is a big fan of domestic automobiles.
I have tried to think when double standards are justified or better or make sense. I don’t come up with any.
I was told I was about to be banned for some comments far tamer on first iteration. I was told I was flaming another poster. I was disagreeing with the reasoning behind that poster’s comments. I altered it a couple times. With the suggestions given I decided it would become so watered down as to be useless.
No one likely is bias free. But the whole exchange seemed so far from bias free, I probably check in here about a tenth as often. Due to the bad taste of the comments section being far from civil free speech.
So then to see the idiot comment, well, again tell me really now when double standards beat a single standard? I would really like to know. And how can it be anything other than hypocrisy?
I have seen the audio and video help sometimes, though often it doesn’t. If it only reiterates info printed I see little point. If it amplifies a feeling or atmosphere about something then it helps.
As for improving things, I would like to see more articles on changing aspects of car use and car ownership. Comparisons of whether AWD is really worth having vs. two wheel drive. Taking into account cost, and reliability up against benefits. Maybe a series asking what we would like to be different about the cars of a few years from now.
Examinations of what is really useful or what makes a car satisfying and fulfilling to own.
Then again, keep up the double standard, and I likely won’t care what is here.
Please keep the comment moderation. Edit, delete and ban away. If I really wanted to read personal attacks between 17 y.o. kids, I know where to look.
The jalopnik podcast are a good feature, I kind of miss them (bot I’m not bothered enough to seek them at jalopnik, where I suppose they are in the first place).
Otherwise, I’m sure you lament it yourself: not enough car reviews. I know, it’s hard and time consuming. And unrewarding.
All in all, I like TTAC good enough so I read (almost) all features.
Thanks all for the hard work.
I have to agree with SherbornSean. I’d also like to see more point/counterpoints on all issues. Those would especially make sense as podcasts.
Also, I really miss the podcasts. Not necessarily precasts because you can get those on jalopnik. But I really enjoyed the podcasts, probably because they give you more than one oppinion.
I actually like the mix of rants/reviews but I think a QOTW would integrate your readership even more.
Videos on the other hand are not necessary in my view, I don’t see how they could help improving site. I do however think that there shoud be more pictures. I like the press pictures and wouldn’t want them to be replaced. But I agree that it would help to also have pictures taken by the tester himsef to see the car he actually tested.
For the content:
The podcasts should return, even if I usually don’t listen them till the end, they were mostly enjoyable. I don’t think the “as read by” audio should return, I rather just read the articles, and after that they are kind of pointless.
Maybe some more reviews would be nice, although I understand this is limited by the supply of cars to review. The rants are often a good read, some more then others, but I wouldn’t kill the good ones with the bad ones.
Jalopnik is nice and all, but they’ve got so much material that it regularly gives me an attack of stendahl syndrom. So I would limit new articles to two per day, like it is now. Don’t add any video material either, it would just mess things up. “Real” pictures of the cars would arguably make better journalism (just my personal opinion), however, as long as the subtitles are fun, I don’t care that much. QOTW…yeah…but…Na.
For the ban policy:
Living in the Netherlands, where you can say everything about anyone and boundaries for media are (almost) nonexistend, I can say I regularly get irritated by all the things people think they can show on TV or post on the net. Don’t think I’m some old complainer either, I’m 21. Still, shows where presentors do harddrugs on national TV (Netherlands 3, no obscure sattelite) and say how they feel after that at 2230 PM to “give information to the young people about the effects of drugs” is sheer lunacy, for what I’m concerned.
However, I also think people should be able to vent their opinions as long as it doesn’t do serious damage to others. Everybody has the right to free speach but everybody also has the right to disaprove of other peoples’ statements.
Take it too far and live with the consequences.
Just to build on the QOTD idea, TTAC could post a gallery of pix and/or press release from a carmaker, and just invite comments, or perhaps a variety of quick editorials.
A great example would be the Chevy Volt, a concept car just being released in Detroit. Many will call the Volt yet another example of GM PR touting a vehicle they can’t even produce with today’s technology. Others will see it as a daring reinvention of the PHEV with a real chance of being introduced in 2.5 years.
Glass can’t always be half empty, can it?
Keep up the good work, RF. Best combo of quality and quantity among the many places people can leave comments on the Internet.
As you know, I don’t agree with everything on this site, but what you’ve done with the comments is top notch.
The Commentary Sections are the most fun to read on this site. The staff function as provocateurs, and does so with elegance and style. And it is up to the commentators to create a discussion. It works perfectly.
The only thing is that it can be quite tiresome with all those “hear hear” and “me too” comments. With 150 answers to any editorial, the “group think” mentality can produce a sense of “I think I’ve read this before” feeling.
But otherwise, I congratulate the staff at TTAC and all its contributing readers for the best discussion-group about cars on all the internet. This is the place to be, this is where it happens. And the car companies sure as hell knows where they read it first…
40 + Comments and already I see a trend.The import lovers see eveyrthing at TTAC as perfect.The domestic supporters would like to see a more level playing field.
Hey I’m one of those guys that wrote letters to C&D and R&T
to cancel my subsription[too much domestic bias]IMHO I believe the media is responible for much of the perception gap in the N/A auto industry.
One can’t fault the Japanese car companys marketing.Toyota has managed to convince a huge amount of unsuspecting
custumers that they have a better.product.
Now some savy consumers,are finding that the big 2.5 are every bit as good as the Japanese,for less money.
For now lets not forget that Toyota is #2 and really with the
Quality issues and the recalls,and thier line up of ugly cars maybe they will stay there.
TTAC keep it up its the best thing going.
I think its a great idea to have a no holds barred [like this one] from time to time.
Thanks for the feedback. Rest assured many of your suggestions will be implemented (e.g. more of our photography). Mikey: Which Hondas, Toyotas and Hyundais have you driven? Bimmers, Mercs, Audis? I'm not trying to pull rank. I'm just curious about your perspective. I mean, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
I enjoy very much the way this column works. I would be against a point/counterpoint style column. Please keep things the way they are.
I think TTAC is just fine the way it is. Moderated forums are important – unmoderated ones would eventually not be read at all, in my opinion.
I don’t see a bias here, except the bias for great automobiles, or at least ones that show some sort of passion in their crafting, execution, or performance.
The podcasts are good value added stuff, but not a deal breaker one way or the other.
On the bytehead side, I would add that this site is not the friendliest for those of us who view it on their PDA. Not impossible, mind you, and this is nitpicky, but I would be willing to be it’s an attractive demographic for advertisers, too.
Overall Robert and Co. – I think you guys are doing a fine job. I love provocative articles that stimulate ire, debate, incense, and even a little blood letting if it is artfully done. LOL!
My take on car reviews is that there is no single perfect review and any single vehicle EVER!!! The great thing about the web is that one can access literally hundreds of competing ideas regarding the choices available. And there are many kinds of reviews (all can be useful to folks researching purchasing options or merely seeking amusement as ourselves here) –
1) Would I buy this car myself? And if so or if not why? This is important because most consumers are not car guys, afficinados, professional car reviewers, etc.
2) Is this an attractive car for the targeted segment – IE is it competetive based on what else is out there in terms of price, features, etc? For example, a Chevy Aveo that may not be competitive with a Honda Fit but sells in market for $4,000 less may be a good choice for a first car. I tend to like reviews that look for any positive aspects of a vehicles personally as there is literally something for everybody our there.
3) A car reviewer should take each vehicle on its own merits – never in the context of the manufacturer or company executives or any other factor that really doesn’t have a bearing on the car itself. I see this all the time and it is bizarre IMHO.
4) Platform sharing and rebranding is a fact of life – in almost every industry these days (due to mergers and acquisitions and accountants and business cycles in general). Get over it! Just review the car as it has been presented. So the Lucerne is little more than a DTS – is it an attractive car for those looking for a roomy FWD sedan.
5) Attempt as much as possible to be objective (given the assumption that to do this completely is impossible for us mere mortals) – and let others be the judge of whether you are or not. No person can honestly and accurately determine of and by themselves if they are being biased or not (think about this and it makes perfect sense).
Overall I think TTAC does a reasonable job, although I can sometimes predict with 100% accuracy (for select reviewers), even before reading the review where it is going to come down, based on the writers track record.
6) Never second guess the market! If a car that you think is crap takes the market by storm, be honest enough to see it in this light alone. Car makers are in the business of selling cars not making great cars 100% of the time. Surprise! Like any other mass produced product they are little more than a commodity these days. I realize this may tweak our carnut sensibilities but get over it!
Yes the Dodge Caliber is not a great car – but is turning out to be huge sales success! Why is this? Did not the masses who purchase this vehicle not read all the reviews? Probably not, as most of them are not carnuts like us. They really don’t care a less what experts think (as if they did they would buy a Civic instead).
7) Compared to 10-20 years ago, in strictly relative terms, there are really no terrible cars out there in terms of quality, safety and even reliability.
Lets see I drove a early Hyundai it quit at the beer store.I guess theres worst places.
My brother owns a junk yard he loves scrap mercs they weigh heavy and he gets a fortune for the parts they don”t don’t like Canadian winters.The frames rot.
As do Nisson pick ups.
A friend with a Bimmer and a drinking problem I drive it a lot!
You need a second morgage to repair it.But a nice car to drive
I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Toyota [too ugly]
Confesion time If there was no domestic car industry and a I
had to buy a car it would be Honda. Best looking most reliable IMO.
However as long as there is a car with a PONTIAC BADGE its my car
– TTAC is a great site
– comments posting policy is right on; I’ve had a posting or two removed and I’m glad they were.
– We shouldn’t argue about whether TTAC has an anti-Ford/GM/DCX bias any more. The existence of a bias doesn’t devalue opinion as a matter of fact, it is the basis of powerful opinions.
Does the NY Times have a bias? Does FOX News? If TTAC doesn’t have an overall bias, it’s writers certainly do – it’s human. We commentators certainly have biases and some of us are being called out by name because it’s obvious and part of our character.
An interesting experiment is to multiply the number of comments by the number of views to give an overall "popularity factor". Based on the assumption that a superior article produces both more views and more comments. Unfortunately, articles concerning Formula One come in dead last in this area. And I say this even though I am a huge fan of this form of racing.
Robert my suggestion is for you to post a weekly import versus domestic chapter 1, 2 etc and let those that claim there is media bias or that the domestic brands are every bit as good as imports to debate the issue there
I believe that the racing articles are less popular because not everyone that follows cars and the car industry is automatically a racing fan believe or not.
Mikey what you posted earlier today is the argument and view that I constantly keep reading on other forums. That there is not an actual gap in quality between domestics and imports but rather a perception gap and that the various media outlets are biased against traditional domestic brands and that the public “perception” of traditional domestic brands versus import brands is due to the media coverage.
You go on to say “Toyota managed to convince a huge amount of unsuspecting customers that they have a better product”
I have to disagree. A few years ago domestics had 85 to 90 percent of the market everyone I knew growing up in Florida their parents had domestic cars. Most everyone I knew and know now has owned a domestic branded vehicle. It is our own actual ownership experience that has soured us on domestic brands. I hate that whole perception versus reality claim.
The reality is many if not most people are not into the import versus domestic thing. On Internet forums it is Toyota Honda and Hyundai versus GM, Ford and Chrysler. In the real world it is every brand versus every brand for the consumer. If some has a terrible experience with Brand A (GM or Toyota take your pick) they often tend to not buy Brand A again but they will still try Brand B, C, D etc (Ford, Honda Hyundai etc) Down here in Florida is extremely common to have a domestic and a foreign car both in the same family (spouse, son daughter etc). People do compare ownership experience, (time and money spent in shop etc)
This whole media is causing the “perception” of quality may be what people in the domestic auto industry think but frankly almost everyone I know now drives a foreign car (although domestic trucks are still popular). Please know I am also a union member in a right to work state and my fellow union workers mainly now drive foreign cars due to actual problems on their domestic vehicles not perceived problems. Its not the media and its not Toyota’s marketing. Its actual ownership experience that has been slowly eroding the domestic market share and causing Toyota to gain market share
I would definitely like to see a ‘second opinion’ section for both reviews as well as death-watch editorials. I would also like to see a reduction in death-watch related material – while these are important they are also becoming the editorial focus of this site which is a little narrow. There are plenty of other car industry related stories that are worth writing about.
As for the comments – please continue your editorial policy as the more intelligent comments on this site can be just a good as the editorials. Let’s keep the standards high and the flamers away.
“Clearly, they don’t understand or appreciate the boundaries of civilized discourse.”
This from one of the guys that works with Jalopnik, who had “handjob” crossed out of a recent article…and has a fair amount of profane ramblings there. Excuse me if I find that last paragraph hilariously judgemental in a “Robert knows best” kind of way.
The spirit of the site is fine, and yes, it needs to avoid being a flame war site…but I’d also argue that some reviews/reviewers come off as strong or stronger than the comments that follow them. If you post a review or an article that’s got serious teeth to it, really strong language and/or subject matter that stirs the pot, it’s going to attract a similar intensity in its comments. If the author in question can’t take the criticism, the author need not be an author. While I’m no fan of internet f-bombs or ridiculous flame wars, intensity begets intensity. If you don’t like fireworks, don’t light the fuse.
I would agree that the death watches seem to be the foundation upon which this site exists, thus how can it NOT look like yet another source of anti-domestic ranting? Perhaps a series of “Life Signs” articles that give notice to areas in which the Big 2.5 are making headway. Actually, that would likely be a great way to handle it. In any case, it would pull the anti-domestic bias feeling around here back toward the middle somewhat.
I’m one that Robert gets after, and I have to suggest one more thing: if you’re going to e-mail someone with a warning or an “I edited your flamey post” statement…tell the person exactly which bit got the notice? Asking in e-mail responses doesn’t seem to work….
If it seems like I’m pouring on, it’s because I don’t always agree with Robert. However, I like the site and the level of insight from most of the commentators…and I don’t deny loving a good, informed argument.
Personally, I don’t think it is hostility towards the 2.5, but frustration, deep frustration. I want them to do well and they are capable of producing very good vehicles. HOWEVER, what you see most of the time is management decisions which fail to recognized the new realities. As a result, you do see the ocassional vehicle which is really pretty good, but the inability to put together a group of good vehicles at the same time or to improve a good vehicle when the time comes for a model change.
The other major theme of the 2.5 is the failure to make the hard decisions. GM and Ford have far too many divisions and there is no talk of seriously cutting back on those divisions. That is a hard decision, but also a necessary one.
Don’t have much time right now but some quick comments:
1. Any way you can have the site display which discussions have been updated with new comments?
2. I’ve posted this already in the RS4 comments section but I feel comparision tests would be a great addition (RS4 v. M3 anyone?).
I’d like to hear more pod-casts that include some of the other writers on the site. I have TTAC subscribed on i-tunes where the pod-casts are collected, then dumped to my i-pod.
Listening to TTAC has calming effect on me whenever I wait in a BMW service department lounge.
Is it just me, but does Lieberman sounds like GG Allin’s drummer ?
I would agree that the death watches seem to be the foundation upon which this site exists, thus how can it NOT look like yet another source of anti-domestic ranting?
Zanary: we are allowed to question/challenge/dislike the policies of upper management and not be anti-American.
My problem is that CEOs get paid ungodly amounts of money, and so many of them (not just in the Car Biz) make the company worse for their investors/employees/society in their wake. There isn’t much accountability for their actions.
To me, he sounds like someone who could teach me how to really enjoy my Mercury Marauder (that I don’t own yet).
CAHIBOstep: two words…FORCED INDUCTION! :-)
Could someone who thinks that we are in fact “anti-American” (as opposed to… anti-Swedish?) please explain why?
Zanary: we are allowed to question/challenge/dislike the policies of upper management and not be anti-American.
My problem is that CEOs get paid ungodly amounts of money, and so many of them (not just in the Car Biz) make the company worse for their investors/employees/society in their wake. There isn’t much accountability for their actions.
I certainly have no issue with that, however:
1. Would articles like my proposed “signs of life” series be bad in any way? There is no lack of media attention to the negatives.
2. Most of the decisions are made years before the results. The time lapse creates a distortion that had, for instance, Bill Ford blamed for many things JAc Nasser did.
I like ACCURATE blame. Silly me.
Again, some balance shouldn’t be that much to ask for…unless the site is genuinely anti-domestic.
Unfortunately, articles concerning Formula One come in dead last in this area.
Unfortunately indeed, as a car fan and European, F1 and lesser racing formulae interest me very much. The lack of interest in the articles about this subject really surprised me.
However, I think we can also agree that there are other sources better suited to cover F1 than TTAC (Maybe a franchise? The Truth About F1 (TTAF1)). 800 words often aren’t enough for F1’s stories and on top of that, most F1 fans will already know them. So as much as I like F1 and racing, I’d say TTAC should keep concentrating on cars and the inner workings of the car business and keep the racing to others.
Based on the assumption that a superior article produces both more views and more comments.
Well, let’s just say I seriously doubt if that assumption would last.
Could someone who thinks that we are in fact “anti-American” (as opposed to… anti-Swedish?) please explain why?
It’s obvious…You don’t like most American cars, so you must be anti-American. I don’t like McDonald’s so, clearly, I’m anti-American too. Maybe you’re anti-Swedish too, only there hasn’t been a Swede to point that out…yet…
Maybe it’s because the USA has only a little over 200 years of history… :) It makes everyone sensitive when it comes to American culture.
it is your show and alot of us keep coming back. if that does not cover it , nothing else will.
1. Would articles like my proposed “signs of life” series be bad in any way? There is no lack of media attention to the negatives.
2. Most of the decisions are made years before the results. The time lapse creates a distortion that had, for instance, Bill Ford blamed for many things JAc Nasser did.
1. I think that’s a great idea. I find actual signs of life hard to discern from PR spin, maybe that’s easier if you work closer to the industry. (which I do not)
2. That’s true, but Bill Ford had years to do significant house cleaning and come up with a strong product lineup after Nasser’s mistakes, but we aren’t gonna see that until 2009 or so. If that’s not bad enough, he also let the Taurus, Town Car and other breadwinners die on the vine with no significant redesigns.
May not be “accurate blame” in your opinion, but there’s no love for the big man here. I’m sure he’s a nice guy, but he needed to do more in 2001 or so.
As the editor and manager of a weblog in a completely different area (search for ‘clarisonus’), but one with just as strongly held opinions, I have to applaud Robert Farago for how he mangages TTAC. Moderated blogs are not a guaranteed space for anyone to exercise their free speech. They are a space for civilized dialog under the watchful eye of the moderator(s). If, in the moderator’s opinion, the dialog has gotten unproductive, the moderators are free to do what is necessary. The overall quality of the blog is based on how the moderation is done. TTAC has the same goals as I do in my blog: freedom for the authors to express their opinions (short of libel), and freedom of the commenters to agree/disagree/augment/whatever within the limits what the authors and site editor see fit. On the whole, this leads to the best quality dialog, overall. People who can’t abide by these limitations are free to express their opinions on other sites. It is interesting to see who prefers these other sites, though!
Luther hates unions.
I dont hate Unions Mikey. In fact the pre-1935 Wagner Act Samuel Gompers stye Unionism often benefited all of Humanity. I embrace self-ownership and individual property rights (aka Selfishness) therefore I am anti-Government (Im a Lysander Spooner-esque Anarchist.)
Could someone who thinks that we are in fact “anti-American”
It is not anti-American it is anti-mediocrity which is profoundly American. I hope it still is anyway.
Both the brilliant/well-reasoned writing style of the authors and the thoughtful commentary from the peanut gallery keep me coming back to this site. Dont change a thing RF.
The title/picture of this piece prompted me to play Dixie Chicken at a volume of about, oh, 150dB (The minimum volume for this tune). This prompted my daughter to suggest/demand/scream “Turn that crap down!”. Revenge is so sweet. Thanks RF.
About this anti-domestic bias that supposedly exists and apparently annoys a lot of readers.
Well, I haven’t seen it and I don’t think there is any anti-Americanism to be seen either. I’ve seen a lot of comments about it though. Some commentators to your articles are somehow taking pro-American views for granted. Strange.
I think the problem lies with the rest of the motoring press. We punters are so used to pro-domestic biased journalism that we more or less take it for granted. The only time people react is when that bias is absent. Like in most articles on TTAC. When a journalist suddenly puts away his feelings for one or the other country and uses his brain, emotions etc to actually describe the car in itself, he obviously breaks some schoolboy rule. Supporting the wrong team suddenly?
The reason why I read the articles on this site is that they tend NOT TO BE BIASED AT ALL in any significant way. Unlike most other sites and magazines about cars mind you. Yes, a writer is allowed or perhaps supposed to get emotional and even personal when he describes a car, because that equals good reading. But to raise a flag for Detroit’s over-sized trucks, under-engineered performance cars or those cheap plastic palaces they call consumer cars is just stupid. Surely there must be fan-sites for the perverse buggers who like to do that.
No, keep up the good work and don’t let flamers try to scare you back to those playground car comparisons that many publications accept. TTAC has taken giant leaps in the race to keep petty nationalism away from motor journalism. In fact it might be the first truly grown-up motoring site in the whole bloody internet world. Not bad eh?
Death watches need to be curtailed? Yes, they are starting to get redundant anyway. Is there really that much compelling new content?
Here are some ideas, FWIW –
What about GM’s new electro-car initiatives?
What about commentary/second thoughts on other reviews or comparison tests, like R & D’s recent one where the Fusion topped the Camry and Accord?
What about prediction pieces like – In 10 years this is what I see in the auto landscape – Ford belly up, Chrysler sold to Hyundai or Samsung, and GM gaining its former dominance and glory (all hypotheticals that will spur vigorous and amusing discussion)
I also love lists – try to come with some more creative ones though, like – If I was the last person alive on the earth with total command of all roads and highways, what 3 cars would I want to have (one from Europe, one from Japan, and one from the US). Or, the 10 best cars for America’s increasingly obese rear-ends. You get the idea.
What about a piece called the “The Lies About Cars” and catalog the most serious such deceptions in circulation.
What about some more information pieces by those actually in the domestic car business – dealers, salespeople, managers, union higher ups. I am always interested in what things are like out there in the real front lines of the car business. Something like – why current sales tactics do little to promote consumer confidence in the car makers or their products.
For example – the typical car salesman really doesn’t care that much about cars. Like, he probably sold mortgages or insurance before cars and it shows.
Finally – I love inside information that is not readily accessible to the rest of us. Sales figures before they are published for example.
I think the problem lies with the rest of the motoring press. We punters are so used to pro-domestic biased journalism that we more or less take it for granted.
I can’t recall any of that in 20+ years. In the 80’s, the domestics weren’t European enough. In the 90’s, the domestics (rightfully) only wanted to build trucks and SUVs. In the 21st century, it’s assumed that the domestic vehicle in any market is inferior to any Asian import. Sadly, divisions like Buick and Mercury are almost always toward the top of JD , yet it NEVER gets mentioned.
Oh, wait…except by me!
Cars are like art why one guy loves one car and thinks the other is a POS.thats anybodys guess.
I love American cars with all thier faults.My 6 cyl Firebird is a poster boy for whats wrong with domestics.It rattles it sqeeks you feel every pot hole or manhole cover.The trim and carpets don,t fit.You gotta help the power windows go up.
And I love it, theres is just something I love about putting the top, down and gazing over that long front end that thrills me.
I think thats the common thread that ties us all at TTAC together I look at a guy driving a Civic with a fart can and I think ewww what POS. The Civic guy , looks at the old guy driving a chick car and thinks get a life.
I think I’m finding tolerance in my old age.The next tuner kid I see I’m gonna tell him about TTAC
It is interesting to me that since reading this site, i have actually started paying attention to “American” cars. I wrote them off so long ago, they had become irrelevant to me. As a VW owner, my world held VW, BMW and Mercedes. Well Alfa too, but we can’t get them here. And maybe Honda/Acura too. But that was about it.
Now I am noticing big 2.5 cars. For better or worse. The shocking blandness of the Ford 500 (should have called it a Galaxie 500), the sheer ugliness of the GM Chevy Cavaleir sized cars. Also, I saw a Lincoln Zephyr which I found really hot looking, and the Fusion looks good too. The Impala still looks bland though, ‘vette v8 and all. I still can’t figure out why I am so taken by a cars sheet metal, since when you sit in it, you can’t see the outside any more. Ah, but I am a sucker for a pretty face and a nice body!
I have also thought that since I am now paying attention to these “American” cars, that TTAC might actually be funded BY the big 2.5, to get us to pay attention to them. Was it Henry Ford who said “I don’t care what they are saying, so long as they keep talking about me”?.
Well, even if you are a secret agent of the dark lords of corporate automobiledom, this is still a cool site. I like being able to talk back.
Also I was never a big fan of the audio conversations, perhaps it was because I couldn’t chime in and say, “Wait a minute….” even though it seemed like you all were sitting across from me. I dunno. I prefer the text.
As for the anti-flaming rule, good for you. So so so so many interactive sites are truly garbage dumps of psychotic ramblings… this one is cool because it is regularly pruned of the most egregious offenders. Good riddance to them. People should not be insulted for an opinion, however looney. Grace and a good sense of humor make for a better time for everyone.
As for domestic bias (or the lack thereof), I don’t really care where a car is made. Chevy’s made in Canada, VW’s made in Mexico, Fords made in Mexico… Asian brands made in the southeast USA… soon Chryslers made in China – who really cares? I sure don’t. Porsches made in Poland, Fiats in Spain. Who can keep up with all that? And why?
It’s just a stupid car, after all. Unless it’s a one off, they are mostly easily replaceable with other stupid cars. Becoming vitriolic over a car brand for any reason always struck me as the product of a mind with nothing much to do. Use that high energy promoting world peace, or an end to hunger or oppression. Use cars to have fun with. Then tell us if u did or didn’t, and why. THAT’S cool..
Good work everyone; I wish I had thought of this.
Happy New Year.
What I really like about this site is the flair in the writing style of the editorials – and of course certain authors have more flair IMHO than others. Still I have a question: if there is any real bias on behalf of an author, how can what he writes be considered The Truth About Cars?
I recognize that everyone has an opinion aka bias, but if you are expressing anything it is an opinion about cars and not always the truth. But that’s just my opinion.
One thing that is so appealing about TTAC is that its writers adopt some rather strong positions, and aren’t exactly coy in sharing them. They also go the extra mile by dialoguing with the readers, which keeps the commentary moving and helps it to evolve from the original piece. These features make it a good read, but it also inevitably will produce some equally strong feedback, so we can’t be surprised when some of those in the opposing camp don’t take to it kindly.
I’m all for intelligent discussion, there’s already far too little of it on the internet as it is. But achieving that goal also has to be approached with caution, for if the moderation policy appears to place too tight of a leash on what is often a such a highly emotional topic such as the Big 2.5/import debate, then you do run the risk of running the pro-domestic crowd off the board and skiing down the slippery slope into groupthink. (Watch the trees.)
I personally think that the outright ban on accusations of bias goes a bit far, even though I also believe that these claims are complete rubbish. (Hint to Big 2.5 fans: In any industry, any company that can devote 30 years to giving up its dominance to other firms, with no chance of ever getting back, is poorly run. That is ultimately a business management problem, not a patriotic or American problem.)
Free speech is the best antidote for a flawed argument — as Justice Brandeis once noted, the best disinfectant is sunshine, and the best policeman is light. By allowing those who make such faulty claims to present them and permitting others to correct them with the facts, it will become clear to most of the readership that the bias claims are just hollow rhetoric.
I don’t believe that the TTAC authors are biased against the domestics based on the vehicle reviews. Hell, these guys are tough on everyone. There are some favorable domestic reviews and and some unfavorable foreign reviews here. No problems with that.
My only beef is with the DW series, which I feel goes too far and has reached the point of tedium. Hey, we probably could start a deathwatch for all automakers except for maybe Honda or Toyota. It seems that all others have evidence of various degrees of upper management incompetence, poorly conceived products, recalls, shoddy interiors, overpaid workforces, overcomplicated and unreliable electronics, etc, etc. A few German marques I can think of fall into some of these categories. Every automaker has a combination of the enlightened and the clueless, the people who truly understand what needs to be done and the those who are simply on board to get a paycheck and do things the way they have always done them. It’s just the ratios of these people at the various companies is different in each case. The TTAC DW/SW companies I believe are getting it, although a little late in the game. I would agree with a previous poster that there should be a “Signs of Life” counterpoint to the DW series to showcase the good that is going on in Detroit. And, yes, there is some, believe it or not.
As for the anti-flaming policy, I would like to be able to call someone on a bias if it can be done in a civilized manner and with a reasonable argument to back it up with. I’m pretty sure I would disagree with someone like Sherman Lin regarding automotive tastes, but reading some of his posts, it is obvious to me that despite his biases, he seems to have a reasonable thought process in which we can debate our different tastes and even biases with mutual respect. We should be able to call ’em like we see ’em, too. I would reserve the right-to-delete for the obviously mean spirited, the needlessly profane, and the moronic comments which sometimes surface.
That said, the quality of the writing by all of the regulars is top notch, and I sometimes have to explain to my co-workers why I’m chuckling to myself in my cubicle. Keep it coming, keep it funny, but be sure it’s the whole “Truth”!
Peace and Happy New Year to all in TTAC land!!!
Robert, I like the way that you’ve handled things to date. There have been a couple of unpleasant posts / contributors and you have dealt with them decisively. Thank you for keeping this a collegial sandbox.
Still digesting your comments, as are all the other TTAC writers. Quick note though: I'm getting the feeling that some of you believe our zero tolerance towards criticism of the site or its authors' bias (perceived or actual, pro-domestic or not) should be allowed– provided it conforms to the boundaries of civility. Here's my problem: if I open the door to that debate, the topic will dominate the comments section. And while some of the people involved would certainly be level-headed, most would not, and the comments would quickly devolve into a vicious flame war. I know this because A) it has happened and B) it continues to happen. Patrolling the site for personal attacks already takes up too much time. And I really can't stand vituperative pissing matches. Intellectual grappling? Yes. Name calling, literary cage matches and alpha posturing? Zzzzzz. This is really the nub of the matter: the bias debate is endlessly repetitive and infinitely boring. TTAC doesn't do boring. It's not our thing. I mean, I hope to God it isn't.
To me, there is nothing that can even remotely compare to the editorial content available here on this website. Please, someone tell me what other media outlet offers such a no holds barred, take no prisoners approach in their efforts to size up all things automotive? Exactly.
Even though I applaud such brutally frank efforts on the part of the editorial contributors, it is, in my opinion, a paradox of necessity to monitor the comments section and carry out some occasional parental responsibilities when the kiddies don’t play nice.
In my view, an occasional podcast and/or video feature is plenty enough to add a little variety to an already thoroughly entertaining site. Putting up a new article/review daily has to be a taxing proposition. Keep up the great work.
As for me, I’m going to go click on one of the sponsors ads…..
All in all I am VERY pleased with the TTAC editorials as they are writted – I understand that some are biased (because I don’t necessarily agree with them!) and some are very evenly written – but that is the beauty of TTAC.
I would like two things though:
1. More pro and con reporting from two writers – I REALLY enjoyed the last one.
2. Maybe Probert or womeone else could actually interview some of the principals of either the medium 2.5 or their unions or officials of the worlds automakers with the slant of TTAC and what we minority performance oriented members of the public want.
Thanks for TTAC and keep up the good work!
RF:
Re the issues of “boring” and “bias”: Each reader will decide for himself or herself whether the articles and posts, collectively and individually, are boring and/or biased. I would simply opine that when TTAC stakes out “unbiased” in its mission statement, it’s no more boring to hear some readers charge bias than it is to hear Death Watch writers and believers constantly piling on Detroit.
I should add that I currently own a Subaru and a BMW, owned Toyotas and Hondas previously, and have never owned a Detroit car. I’m not out to defend Detroit.
Guys,
This may be just me, but I am starting to think mikey is the same poster who used to be known as Gearhead 255. He must have gotten banned and come back with a new name.
Anyone else notice this?
And by the way, the question of anti-American bias is silly. The car market itself is showing this “bias”, just look at the dropping market share and crummy profitiability of the Big 2.5 It is not bias to point out that most US brand cars just don’t measure up to their competitors.
Here’s my problem: if I open the door to that debate, the topic will dominate the comments section. And while some of the people involved would certainly be level-headed, most would not, and the comments would quickly devolve into a vicious flame war.
AGREED. Check out every other blog in existence. They are full of flames, going directly after the honest opinions and tastes of others. What starts out as a civilized discussion quickly turns into a discussion of “who’s the bigger idiot”. We’ve seen enough of them already.
1. Would articles like my proposed “signs of life” series be bad in any way? There is no lack of media attention to the negatives.
What signs of life? Read USA Today if you want this kind of stuff. Many media outlets have been heaping praise on the American car companies for years.
But – if the TTAC editors believe that the Big 2.5 are headed in the wrong direction, then let them write about it. Forcing them to write about things they genuinely may not believe makes no sense.
If that doesn’t work for you, then stop reading their articles.
I’m impressed with the responses to this thread. Virtually every person who posted took the time to proof their comments before hitting the submit button, and posted with reserve and a level of intelligence rarely found online. That’s what makes this place TTAC. Very cool indeed.
Here’s my problem: if I open the door to that debate, the topic will dominate the comments section.
The problem is that the debate can’t be avoided. Unless you change the website to become The Truth About Crochet and stop discussing cars entirely, there is always going to be somebody, somewhere who will accuse you of some sort of bias.
That’s particularly true in this day and age when many of the fingerpointers base their accusations of “bias” merely on the presence of disagreement, rather than on a cogent analysis of the facts on hand. Sadly, it’s a byproduct of a time when all opinions are deemed equally credible, no matter how baseless or uninformed they may be, but that’s another topic entirely…
When a topic is rooted primarily in appeals to emotion, such as this one, then emotion is what you get. If the internet had existed in the sixties, you would have had equal degrees of vitriol flung between the GM and Ford camps at one another. It’s just different fuel for the same fire.
You have a few basic choices in respect to the bias charges: delete them, debate them from above, allow the members to debate them, or some combination thereof. As a possible hybrid alternative, you could allow the discussion, but also add some anti-spamming rules to prevent one-topic ponies from turning their viewpoints on the matter into a crusade. But the claims of bias are inevitable, even if it is only in the minds of lurkers who never actually post here.
Pch101:
“That’s particularly true in this day and age when many of the fingerpointers base their accusations of “bias” merely on the presence of disagreement, rather than on a cogent analysis of the facts on hand. Sadly, it’s a byproduct of a time when all opinions are deemed equally credible, no matter how baseless or uninformed they may be, but that’s another topic entirely…”
Couldn’t have said better myself. Actually I couldn’t have said it as good either. So my hats off to you.
I second (or is it third or fourth) the idea of the signs of life series. Only because it does get tiresome reading DW after DW. Recently they have been articles suggesting what the the 2.5 could do. And I have commented that I like that direction. Also in every large endeavor there is always some good news no matter how bleak the landscape. So if this is really the TRUTH you have to acknolwedge some good now and then. And you have to acknowledge when the imports do bad (like all the Toyota recalls).
I don’t consider the site or the writers biased. Yes they are harsh on Detroit in general. But I feel for the most part it is tough love. I criticised Robert’s reference to Bob Lutz as an idiot but I realized with that article that he really does want the domestics to prosper. If he didn’t all he would have said about Lutz’s stand on CAFE “there he goes again” and left it at that. Or worse he would have shrugged his shoulders and not cared, like so many consumers who feel that way about the 2.5. But Robert cares, or he wouldn’t be screaming “you idiot, wake up and smell the coffee!!!”.
OK, now some other suggestions besides the previously mentioned “signs of life”:
1) Is there some link that would explain in detail the rules about posting here? Maybe there is but I’m so used to coming here and just diving in I don’t even notice (damn this site is addicting!). And could it include some examples of what is NOT allowed? Some of us need examples to see what you are talking about, not because you are not clear in your explanations but because some of our brains are wired differently and that’s how we learn.
2) I second the question of the day or week because it give us the reader a chance to sound off on something. Maybe the first one could be “What in you opinion are the domestics doing right at this time?”.
3) Still waiting for TTAC gear (hats, t-shirts, etc.) to buy and promote the site.
I’m generally quite happy w/ TTAC. Editorials are often–though not always–very interesting and well thought out. I am complete agreement w/ banning posters who attack other posters. I don’t think there is a bias against domestics, and I think if leaders of the big s2.5 read TTAC and did something about the problems raised, they would benefit. (Those who think TTAC is biased: if you had a child who was screwing up in school, and got a lousy grade, would you criticize the school for being biased against your kid, or would you try to help your kid do better?)
Having contributed to TTAC as a writer in the past, and hopefully again soon, I have suffered insufferable agony in paring my words down to the 800 limit. I am sure all the TTAC contributors suffer the same internal angst, or ultimately face the giant red letters of editing.
So it is distressing to wade through what seem like 1000+ word comments, which usually take far longer to trudge through than the original review/rant.
Ultimately, as a novice writer, I have found it helpful to be restrained. Moreover, the limit is what makes TTAC cogent, compact, and a lean, quick read for busy p-heads. Comments would benefit from being distilled down to core nuggets, and things might generally stay on track better. Fewer comments might be skipped/skimmed past.
If you need a starting point as a suggestion….400 seems fair enough to respond to an 800 word piece. Surely this can be electronic and automatic.
In the words of Bill O’Reilly….NO BLOVIATING!
PS: I’m way ahead of you….this was 170 words.
I’m an American.
Bob Lutz is an idiot.
The domestics are getting what they deserve.
Do you think I’m a trator ?
I dont care…
I’ll bet you just love your Sony, dont you ?
PERFECT!!
darrencardinal
Thanks for the compliment but I’m not gearhead455,back from the dead.
I might think like gearhead and share his views.Gearhead however crossed the line and got axed. Such is life
As it is, the site is a good mix of give-and-take and civility. RF’s the publisher and is entitled to remove content. The rules are fairly clear and the end result is, overall, prety good.
The thing that disturbs me most are the all-too-frequent allegations of anti-domestic bias. Have those complaining of anti-domestic bias not noticed the reviews of the Camry and the SSR? While there are a few Detroit efforts that are worthy of praise (the latest Jeep, the Corvette, maybe the Fusion, there are others), the SSR sure isn’t one of them. However, the reviewer didn’t get bogged down in the sheer uselessness of the vehicle and wrote honestly about the driving experience which was, unbelievably(*), good.
Go ahead and try to placate those who complain of anti-domestic bias with a “signs of life” series but “signs of life” itself indicates we’re looking at something that’s close to clinically dead – that message probably isn’t what they seek. And I don’t know how fact-based a “signs of life” series can be. Early indications are that the press is willing to go into full hype mode over the Chevy Volt, a vehicle which can not possibly be produced before 2010, if makes it at all.
But it seems to me that those who routinely allege anti-domestic bias won’t get off it until you begin to praise crud. Don’t do it. This is another aspect of the startling and dismaying revelation (see recent Detroit Free Press article) that Detroit’s greatest strength is that Detroit brands are not Asian brands (apparently, it’s OK to actually BE an Asian car, of course, which is why the Aveo is accepted as a Chevy).
(*) and before somebody gets after me about anti-domestic bias, I say “unbelievably” not because it’s from Detroit but because the thing stands fairly tall and weighs nearly 2.5 tons!
Like movie reviewers who have to see every movie, the reviewers here have to drive every car. That’s why –like movie reviewers– they have to constantly think of new ways to say “this sucks.”
After all the majority of everything is less than great: ust think of dates you’ve had, movies you’ve rented, politicians you voted for. As science fiction writer Theodore Sturgeon said, “Ninety per cent of everything is crud,” which has become known as “Sturgeon’s Law.”
If the writers were less creative, they’d often read, “from people who believe marketing is more important than what they sell.”
1.)How did the 800 word limit come about? Is there any way it could be expanded to 1000 words? Sounds like many of the writers would be very pleased, and I bet a majority of TTAC readers would love another coupla paragraphs to chew on.
2.)Suggestion: when writers submit articles on cars/concepts, post some hyperlinks if you have them, to spy shots, official websites, test data etc.
Keep up the excellent work with this site.
I think the site gives off a very strong sense of having a strong anti-domestic bias, which in turns attracts posters that have the same viewpoint.
This is because it goes beyond not liking domestic automobiles – they do not like cars that are designed to drive like what they perceive is an American style ride – hence the dislike of Toyota’s, with the Camry and Avalon in particular.
I already know 90% of what will be said in a review/editorial before I read it. That being said, I am all for civility in the blog, but I don’t post much, because i know my opinion will be edited because it doesn’t agree with most of the writers or posters here.
raxman100: I'm dismayed that you think I edit or delete comments based on the commentator's arguments. I only edit or delete comments that flame the site, its authors or fellow commentators. By that I mean, comments that are personally insulting (yes, a website can have feelings too). It's the difference between saying "Your review fails to fully appreciate the tremendous value for money offered by this fine automobile" rather than "Yo! Mo Fo! Who do you think YOU are? You sank my GD battleship!" Or something like that.
Well I may be the only person who disliked the podcasts. I tend to never listen to any podcast, it’s just more to my liking to read and fully concentrate on an article.
And I tend to enjoy driving almost any car. Even rental whatevers if their not too big or floaty. Blowing along at 95 through northern Arizona in a Neon or flogging a Tercel up Haleakala in the predawn to watch sunrise is just as much fun as driving my BMW or WRX on the track at PIR. One has to learn to enjoy what they have at the time. Heck my 36 horsepower Austin A40 or Triumph Herald convertible were fun too – even though 0-60 could be measured with an egg timer. So reviews that dump on a car as being worse that the 6th level of hell and less fun than dredging a pig sty tend to make me wonder if the writer really enjoys driving and cars.
And this is still one of the best car sites on the web. And that’s saying a lot.
RF: The editorial and moderation style of this site is what makes me read every single article here. My eye balls are on this site dozens of hours a week. Take that and stick it in your advertisers pipes.
Thoughts, in no particular order: The DW/etc series can be a bit over the top but are needed, and no one else does it like this place. Podcasts bug the crap out of me. The spirit of this site feels to be the written word, and when I clink a link to a new article, only to run right into a podcast, it actually bugs me to no end. As jerseydevil pointed out, I too actually pay attention to American models now, whereas my opinion used to be, “If I were a contractor I’d buy a big white truck, I can’t afford a ‘vette, and the rest is crap.” I would definitely be for a last a try out of a 1000 word limit. Eight hundred seems to be perhaps too tight at times. Can someone please do an article on what supposedly makes a ‘good’ car interior, or more precisely a good dash? The only company whose cars I can possibly think of who don’t have ‘plasticy’ dash’s would be Porsche (and the handful of others who leather-cover their dashboards). Of course everyone else’s is plasticy! (Sorry, personal peeve there.)
TreyV,
That’s a great question about “plasticy” dashes. The only answer I can think of is that there is plastic and there is plastic. That is, some dashes shape plastics into textures and colors that seem refined and soft and less like the plastic in a toy. Maybe we should stop using the term “plasticy” and focus instead on the feel of the dash.
taxman100
A couple things
1) An American-style ride, as you say, would be/should be a massive, tree-killing V8 lazily powering the rear-wheels of a 5,000lbs. coupe. Please, somebody, anybody, bring this car back.
What I complain about (and by extension, “we”) is the ride found in most modern domestics. Which is to say, garbage. Not because they are American. But because they mostly ride and handle like garbage. The two American sedens I can think of that handle well started off life as a German and Japanese (300C, Fusion).
That is not to say that all German or Japanese cars drive well. Think of the VW Rabbitt (snore) or the Toyota Corolla (blech). You even mention that we don’t like cars that drive like the Toyota Camry. So, I rest my case.
2) Saying that you already know 90% of what is going to be said in a review, well, uh, you know — time is precious and all that.
Trev, Jim.
Go check out the interior of the new Altima Cupe when it hits dealer lots.
That is an example of an inexpensive (fine — middle-class) plastic interior done absolutely perfectly.
As you guys know, you are never going to please all the people, no matter WHAT you say.
I think the level of success the site creates is the only answer you can use. If you are doing a good job (assuming reasonable advertising, etc), readership will flourish. If not…
The proof is in the pudding, boys. :)
Since RF said that no posts will be deleted from here… well here it goes. Watch how fast this one disappears!
As far as the “bias” of TTAC… The link below is all I have to say.
http://forums.automotive.com/community/70/3151/auto-news-car-talk/user-reviews/do-american-cars-suck/index.html
Your review and editing of the posts is right on the mark. Keeps the thing lively and interesting without the rants of the overly sensitive.
If there is an anti-American label bias, it is from those of us who have owned and driven them and now do not.
The people running the Big 2.5 manage, engineer and market like idiots. Therefore, it is likely they are.
The comments from the union members are useful in our understanding of why the rust belt is in the toliet and the Big 2.5 may have to reconfigure to find a way to survive.
Despite the site being generally good, I do feel it/the editors are anti-american, having read the site since discovering it just after moving here, there has clearly been a hatred towards the domestics that was clearly evident despite what you may say to the contrary. A prime example was the twat awards, how many japanese cars were nominated? how many were on the list?!! exactly, very democratic and very anti-american. but you made it clear from the beginning that unless it matched your idea (i.e. if it was domestic it’d be on there) it wouldnt be on the list. bravo. So what is the truth about cars then, or is it just the truth about what RF wants to hear in this little piece of our internet world. When positive signs from the 2.5 are seen (yes it does happen) they are conveniently ignored, and this has been noted through various people in various companies that i’ve compared notes with.
Please hold back on some of the deathwatches, think about what you’re doing there, they are getting tired and the same old arguments constantly come up, nice idea but leave them in bed for a while unless its really necessary, just feels like another soap box for RF to stand and preach to his congregation, i get the feeling you love the sound of your voice. Don’t get all internet egotistical on us please.
As for flaming, we’re all guilty of it and when you have people on here who work and rely on the 2.5 for jobs, you have to expect passionate responses. But if you make personal attacks then expect the same back, you can’t have it both ways while sat in your ivory internet tower. To some extent i’ve seen peoples posts deleted for correct reasons but some have been plain petty and too OTT and big brotherish from the TTAC staff. It does feel that if your opinion differs it will be deleted/edited. Made me laugh when one response of mine was changed to the opposite of what i’d intended!
Rememeber freedom of speech, i thought that was a big part of the american way of life.
1984: That passage was written for another website to stimulate EXACTLY the sort of debate you seem to enjoy, which has been held on TTAC several times, which you can have here, which is prohibited elsewhere because it leads nowhere. All that said, I'm man enough to admit it: I'm biased against crap cars, and ALL who make them. If the fact that Detroit makes more of them than others– when they should bloody well build the world's best cars– makes me biased against The Big 2.5, guilty as charged. That said, I and my writers take each car on its merits. BostonTeaParty: You can't cry fire in a crowded movie house and you can't flame TTAC, its writers or its commentators on this site. And if I changed the meaning of your text (and I can assure you if it was done it was done inadvertently), you know full well that I answer all emails (robert.farago@thetruthaboutcars.com ) re: these matters.
RF,
Bringing up points that people believe to be unfair and backing up their statements with examples is not flaming. It’s just disagreeing, and without it everything would be a bit boring. The name of the site and even some of the articles are designed to provoke a conflict of opinion. As far as the flaming on the site most of the real flaming is ignored as long TTAC is not disagreed with. I do remember being called a beer drinking NASCAR hillbilly (not by the staff) but somehow that conveniently stayed in the comments.
Actually tried to email this to JL to cut down on digression, but the TTAC email bounced for some reason.
Jonny L: Wait, don’t you own a ’06 Impreza? I own one (a STI, wheeee!) and used to own a 00′ 2.5RS as well. I’ve come to virtually cherish the simplicity and cleanliness of the Impreza dash. When I test drove a 02/03, while it was a bit of a lark at the time, the more complicated dash actually put the final kybosh on the exercise for me. I’ve got to salute FHI as well for a dash that says, “We both
know I’m made of plastic, so I won’t try to insult your intelligence by pretending to be leather or chrome.”
So your thoughts on the Impreza interior (as a point of reference?) And if you don’t actually own one, please forgive me for being daft.
Hah, maybe twenty minutes ago I almost wrote, “For the last time, it’s not an anti-American bias, it’s an anti-crap bias.”
i will try to make it concise:
1) TTAC is the best automotive website.
2) Deathwatch has shot its wad. the economy, politics and / or the financial markets will determine if and when one of the 2.5 go under. TTAC knows about cars but is so-so about the economy, politics and the financial markets — how could it be otherwise? i propose TTAC concentrates on what it does best.
3) TTAC is best when it gives you a fresh, non-bullshit viewpoint on cars. Some of Farago’s reviews have been absolutely memorable, such as when he wrote about the Smart, the Bristol or the various Boxsters. In such cases, TTAC is as informative and entertaining as Clarkson in his best moments.
4) The Forum is almost-unreadably verbose. I propose that only those registered members who donate at least ten bucks via Paypal per year should have the right to post. That ought to cut down on the volume from the 14-year olds.
I like this website a lot, but I feel most of the writers and posters think that anything that comes out of Asia walks on water and their stuff doesn’t stink. Meanwhile, anything that comes out of America had better be perfect in every detail otherwise it is a piece of crap.
The most telling example of this can be found just a few days ago, when the latest Chrysler Suicide watch came out the day after Chrysler reported a 4% rise in sales. Nowhere in the article or some 35 responses was there any mention of the improvement in sales, or the success of new models in those figures, nor the decrease in sales bank and inventory figures. It was nothing but DCX is run by monkeys, Compass this, Sebring is an abomination, blah, blah, blah.
If we can’t discuss topics objectively and use facts in our arguments than just forget it.
I don’t always agree but I’ve never had difficulty in getting feedback from the TTAC Mgmt. You guys do a decent job of regulating.
The bias issue is really a non-issue. Every person has multiple biases, some involving cars but most involving more important things.
One article a day is enough to elict thoughtful responses. Too much more and it will be a full time job.
This is a daily stop for me. Enough said.
Fine, but the amount of change to what was written was to the point of you being antagonistic.
I’ve never shouted fire anywhere but if at some point you call bob lutz an idiot aren’t we all allowed to have a go at the fire alarm?
SuperAROD hits the nail on the head.
Point-counterpoint can seem forced, but if a 2nd author wanted to review a car already reviewed, that could add depth to the reviews here. I would find it interesting to
While I might pass on a 2nd review of a Sentra, I’ll read as many BMW M5 reviews as you will publish…. (or any other compelling car to me). I’d also find it interesting if a 2nd reviewer came to entirely different conclusions than the first reviewer.
A pro-detroit editorial series would be interesting. I’ve appreciated that this site has made myself become more well informed on the status of the 2.5, but if someone had a different point of view and wanted to share what the 2.5 were doing right, or why the future looked brighter, I’d be interested in reading that as well.
While I might pass on a 2nd review of a Sentra, I’ll read as many BMW M5 reviews as you will publish…. (or any other compelling car to me). I’d also find it interesting if a 2nd reviewer came to entirely different conclusions than the first reviewer.
See every pro Mustang article by JL and read the negative one that fallows shortly after by RF. This occurred at least 3 times in a row. Not really sure why this happened so frequently on just the one vehicle…
Carping and flaming is way overrated and usually is a sign that someone has nothing to say of any worth. So I applaud the zero tolerance attitude towards such negativity. If someone disagrees they can at least come up with constructive criticism. Sound hokey but its really the only way to go.
And as for the Big 2.5, they need to get it in gear rapido or go the way of AMC, Hudson and Nash-Rambler. I believe that they can do it, its just a question of will they do it?
BostonTeaParty:
“Fine, but the amount of change to what was written was to the point of you being antagonistic.”
Nonsense. I NEVER add text to an edited comment. You sir, are seeing Reds under the bed.
And I have explained the Lutz idiocy remark: it is NOT against the site’s rules to flame within a rant or review. In fact, why don’t you put up or, you know. I invite you to write an 800 word essay on any damn thing you like.
SuperAROD, you keep saying my Chrysler Suicide Watch didn't include "any mention of the improvement in sales, or the success of new models in those figures." That's because a ONE PERCENT sales gain isn't statistically significant and certainly doesn't indicate a return to health. I don't know where you keep getting the 4% number from, but no one else seems to be able to come up with that number – including Chrysler's PR Department. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, perhaps you'll believe BusinessWeek as they cite a Chrysler news release: Even its normally chirpy public-relations team couldn't mask the disaster 2006 was for Chrysler. The release boasted in its headline a 1% sales gain in December "carried by 10 new product introductions in 2006." Final sales results for the year showed a 7% decline. With 10 new products introduced, sales should have been up, not down, and certainly up more than an anemic 1% in December. Chrysler's sales performance was made worse by the fact that it actually posted tens of thousands of sales it never made—vehicles it produced, booked as sales, but sent to airport parking lots to sit until dealers ordered them.
RF its what you take out that makes the difference, not what you add
SuperAROD is truthful. I don’t believe TTAC is anti-domestic, but several of the deatchwatch editorials amount to poorly reasoned piling on.
As far as Chrysler in particular and SuperAROD’s points, there are positives and negatives to Chrysler’s sitation. True, pickups and big SUVs are sucking wind for them right now, and the new Tundra threatens the Ram more than any other, I think.
But on the other hand, the new minivans look like winners and in cars, Chrysler is retaining share, and may even improve share once the Avenger is out. The story in small SUVS is also positive.
I would not have known that had SuperAROD not published the actual sales figures, i.e. the truth. You never hear that the glass is half full from a TTAC editorial.
Ingvar:
January 7th, 2007 at 9:35 am
…
The only thing is that it can be quite tiresome with all those “hear hear” and “me too” comments. With 150 answers to any editorial, the “group think” mentality can produce a sense of “I think I’ve read this before” feeling.
Hi. This doesn’t make sense to me. I’m really wrestling with an infinite loop of convoluted logic. Help me out here…
Let’s say only dissenters were to respond to editorials. How long would it take for two dissenters to dissent the same dissention? Hmmm, maybe by the second posted “comment.”
Oops, then they would be in agreement. We can’t have that, can we?
I guess then they could, in the unity of their dissention, simply sign themselves off with a “hear hear.” But I’m curious…since they would be dissenting with the original editorialsist, would that be more like a “there there?”
Okay, tongue-in-cheek humor aside, if only people who disagreed were to respond to comments, then this site would take on a skewed and unrepresentative air of disjointedness.
This may be hard to believe, but sometimes people just simply…agree with each other. When they do, thare’s nothing wrong with that. It’s called consensus. It’s what makes the world go ’round, so to speak.
So yeah, I have no problem with reading 100 of 150 comments that might be in agreement with the editorialist or with each other in some fashion or another. After all, most people would agree that the sky is blue. Except when it isn’t.
Frank,
I am not on here trying to say that Chrysler is the best thing since sliced bread, I am just saying there is not a lot of objectivity when it comes to U.S automakers.
Chrysler Group reported that unadjusted sales in December 2006 rose 1 percent to 190,415 units (4 percent adjusted). There was one less selling day in 06. Automakers almost always report adjusted figures. Not sure why in this headline, the unadjusted figure was touted.
In addition, November was up 3% adjusted and October was up 1% adjusted. That is 3 consecutive months.
Sales bank is supposedly down below 10,000 units according to Detroit Free Press.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070105/BUSINESS01/701050316/1002
Inventory is down to around 75 day supply.
jnik wrote:
I don’t have time to sit at the computer and read TTAC, so I print the articles to read later. But no matter what method I use, I can’t print the comments. What’s the reason for that?
I have the same problem. I cut and paste into Word, and then print out the word document.
I’ll have the tech guys look into it.
The Forum is almost-unreadably verbose. I propose that only those registered members who donate at least ten bucks via Paypal per year should have the right to post. That ought to cut down on the volume from the 14-year olds.
Perhaps a setup like Digg where the forum is both threaded and thumbed up/down would do? Otherwise, don’t fix what’s not broken – keep up the good work, folks.
Oh, yeah, and more reviews of cars not available in the US would be nice.
There will be bias on a car site no matter what or how much the site owner and moderator try to prevent it. What I think is important, is to have either an external/neutral moderator that does not post (or only post if necessary) to do the banning and warning.
Having the site owner post biased review and the power to ban the alternative viewpoint is a sure fire way to abuse that power. Example would be “Bob is the oil guy” site’s forum (even more so on their external political only forum run by SaturnNToyota). While it is said to be non political, every time there would be some conservative and liberal flame war, then there would be selective banning or editing of only the more liberal opinions, or a quick banning of liberal opinions and then a very late, unwilling ban of the conservative opinions.
I think TTAC is doing great in this regard, until the Asian Prostitute comment comes along.
One thing I do believe, is not to abuse the mod/edit/warning power to hide a mistake and shut people up. If you don’t want extreme comments, have a complain/rant/politics/etc forum that people have to register to view, and have a “I Agree” button that they have to press before they are allowed to read it (not anything legal, just to cool their head before they start flaming).
Hello all,
I’m a fairly new subscriber, but have been lurking for a while.
My comments:
1) To jnik, who said: I don’t have time to sit at the computer and read TTAC, so I print the articles to read later. But no matter what method I use, I can’t print the comments. What’s the reason for that?
I’m in the camp of those who like to print out the articles and read them later. I simply cut the text (both article and comments) and paste them into Microsoft Word and print them from there. (I’ve no use for Podcasts or videos, btw.)
2) While TTAC may seem to be biased against American iron, I’d refer you to the following reviews that pretty well ‘dis my beloved 2006 Honda Civic–and in pretty much all of its forms, no less: Si sedan, EX sedan and the hybrid. (My daily drive is the red ’06 EX coupe, MT, which was not specifically reviewed.) Anyway, if you call the following text examples of TTAC talking about how cars from Honda (etc.) “walk on water,” then what would a truly critical review look like?
Civic EX (sedan):
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=288
Unfortunately, their brazen attempt to replace their three-box sedan with a one-box wonder looks like more like a transporter malfunction involving an economy car and an SUV. The Civic’s front end is an Odyssey unto itself, with a windscreen so steeply raked it’s virtually a forward facing sunroof. The muffed multi-model matrix is equally obvious at the back. The eagle’s head lamp treatment is pure Audi A4, while the horizontal crease is straight off BMW’s 3-Series. Taken as whole, the Civic’s new shape displays all the anomalous futurism of Captain Kirk’s concubines, with none of their intrinsic allure.
The Civic’s drop snout is the piece-de-la-Atari. By denying drivers even a glimpse of the car’s muzzle, windscreen becomes widescreen. If it weren’t for the Civic’s A-pillars– columns of such magnificence that Honda felt obliged to put triangular windows at their base– you’d be tempted to press the alternative view button. Oh wait, there isn’t one.
While the Civic’s in-line four has more than enough oomph for a high mileage shopping trolley, the 140hp 16-Valve i-VTEC® powerplant fails to provide punch to match the car’s boy racer dynamics. Around town, the biggest problem is a drive-by-wire-throttle that’s jumpier than a “dancing” chicken. At cruising speeds, or [theoretical] passing situations, you’re good to slow.
…the Civic faithful will not be well-pleased by the disconcerting view out the windscreen and the bizarre instrumentation in front of them. It’s one thing to watch an X-wing fight its way through tie fighters. It’s another to drive one though traffic.
One of the (few) positives mentioned in the above review: The new Civic will be a tremendous hit– as a coupe. , which was referring to the Si coupe, and I’d agree, the Civic looks best in coupe form.
Next up, the Civic Hybrid: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=1450
The HCH may be the perfect car for fuel misers, but it only offers pistonheads one major advantage: it’s so unrewarding to drive fast that you eventually give-up and drive under the speed limit.
Not exactly sounding like a car the writer worships, does it?
And finally, the Civic Si (sedan):
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2780
Honda is known for its engines. They’ve given the Si Sedan everything an enthusiast could want but a totally stonking powerplant. At the end of the day, you’re left like a greedy little girl penning a letter to Santa for a corral full of ponies.
Sounds like the author feels the car is underpowered, to me.
Some other feedback:
3) As someone who’s authored reviews (of high-end ham radios), I can tell you that when you write, you share a little part of your private self. Publishing something kind of puts your ego on the line, as well as a little of who you are. I’ve nothing but respect for authors who publish.
BTW: The Japaneese effectively put the American ham radio manufacturers out of the ham radio business, save for one that still offers American made ham radios down in TN. What happened? The Japanese offered better-engineered (more modern) designs, with more features, and at competitive prices. Sound familiar?
4) Guess this is a “me too” but I also would love to see the Detroit manufacturers build more world-class automobiles. And not just one, two or three, out of a lineup of many. I read the Death Watches and feel soooo frustrated at how (I feel) the American manufacturers just don’t “get it.” That’s why I’m on my 2nd Civic in a row, and I tend to keep my cars for 10 years.
I’ve too many bad memories of unreliable American cars (in my case GMs and Fords) to trust them again. They simply broke down too often as compared to the Honda’s I’ve owned.
Should I try the ‘new and improved’ American cars? I guess I should, but for me it’s like when someone cheats on you, or otherwise breaks your heart: Do you dare trust him or her again? Even if they proclaim they’re a better person (read: car) now, how do you get over that distrustful feeling deep inside of you…
Finally, I’d suggest the seemingly harsh-sounding “Death Watch” be replaced by something just a trifle toned down. That would go a long way towards quelling the “you guys are anti-American cars” charge. Perhaps something along the lines of “Ford Health Watch” would be less in your face, yet not compromise your editorial integrity. Just a thought, as “Death” is a pretty harsh word.
I do enjoy those pieces, and disagree that they’ve run their course. No one is perfect (not Honda, not the Big 2.5), so a little “tough love” does no harm, I feel. So keep ’em coming!
This is one of my favorite sites–great overall job, TTAC.
Happy 2007,
Glenn in CT
Just one suggestion: a forum where we can search for answers and share info.
Oh, and an edit feature would be nice!
[edit:] Ooppss, there is an edit function. Duh!
Thanks for the opportunity to provide [the other] feedback,
Glenn in CT
I have been a regular reader of TTAC for over a year. I really enjoy this site, but I must say that over the past few months I’ve begun to detect an anti-domestic bias in the content. It sometimes seems that TTAC revels in the 2.5’s predicament.
A few months ago TTAC reviewed the Chevrolet Aveo. They reviewed the outgoing model just weeks before the new model was to hit the showroom floors. Why would one do that? I doubt that TTAC would have reviewed the Toyota Echo just weeks before the arrival of the Yaris. Actions like this make it seem like TTAC is not giving the domestic automakers a fair shot.
Another issue I have with TTAC is that it seems intent on delegitimizing patriotism as a factor in auto purchases. People choose cars for many different reasons. Someone who is very concerned about the environment may choose a Prius. By the same token, someone who is concerned about the future of the United States may prefer a domestic vehicle. A choice based on factors including patriotism shouldn’t be denigrated.
Also, I wish the reviewers would be as critical of exterior styling as they are of interior fit and finish. TTAC seems to be very critical of poor interior materials quality (a domestic weakness) but not very critical of bland exteriors (an import weakness). Ironically, the Civic review quoted above is probably the least-deserving of those remarks; it may be the only Honda that has a good degree of character.
rottenrob
Aside from Patriatism being the last refuge of the scoundrel, we’re in a global economy. The Toyotas you see are built in the States. The Fords in Mexico. GMs in Canada, etc.
Both Ford and GM have massive business in Europe, China, Australia, etc. And Chrysler is German.
Supposed “patriotism” is the worst reason to buy a car. Especially since if they could, EVERY manufactorer would move all of their operations to China. Can’t beat slave labor, etc.
Thanks for this opportunity. It’s difficult to think of any successful enterprise that hasn’t engaged in rigorous self-examination; this bodes well for you, less so for most car companies. A few thoughts:
I like the Death Watch series. I am interested in the car companies as businesses, and there are few other sources of informed criticism in this vein.
Moderation of comments is becoming a necessity. Comments seem to obey a form of Gresham’s Law and if unmoderated will eventually drag any site into the ooze. As to the rules, I don’t think you need to prove that yours are perfect, only that they are reasonable on their face and are consistently applied. You easily pass this test as far as I’m concerned.
I understand your point about the difference between appropriate language in an article and in a comment. Nevertheless, it might be wise on general principles to avoid ad hominem commentary, however justified on the merits.
I’m glad that you are experimenting with podcasts, video, etc. The mobile platform seems to be catching on; you might want to think about how you can take advantage.
Personally, I’d like to see more coverage of very high-end cars. Reading about cars I’ll never drive is a different experience from reading about cars I might own. In the former case, there is much more of the author in the review, and the article can be so much more than a buyer’s guide. This is something that British media seem to do very well (evo, Octane, Top Gear). I like it on this site, too – I just want some more, please.
I’d also like to see more coverage of motoring – great drives, scary drives, track experiences, etc., just because cars are meant to be driven. And while I’m on my soapbox I’d like to see more about motor sports. I know that racing isn’t that popular here but it’s an essential part of both the historical and current development of cars, and should not be ignored.
Outstanding site.
Rottenbob, buying a car on account of patriotism will weaken the country. If you give the Big 2.5 a protected domestic market, you encourage the building of crap and, ultimately, your standard of living will suffer. To compete globally, the US has to build, and might as well buy, the best that there is.
Some 40% of the people who won’t buy an Asian car won’t buy it simply because it’s Asian. That’s a tremendous advantage to Detroit and they’re not investing this advantage in building better, more reliable cars.
Besides, the Big 2.5 have no loyalty to the US, they are loyal only to their shareholders. They’ll wave the flag at you to get you to buy the car but they’ll skip out on their taxes and offshore anything they can to save a nickel.
Rottenbob,
By the way, one man’s “bland” is another man’s “clean.” “Stylish,” “good-looking,” “ugly” and similar terms are 100% subjective.
There are legitimate terms you can use to describe forms which you think are unappealing (“busy” comes to mind) but the overall effect can still be subjective.
I agree that the patriotism argument generally is not well received here. But Mr. Lieberman makes a fair point, too. I’m still going to look at an American car primarily because it is “American,” and I’m a so-called America-hating Democrat.
I find the suggestions that there should be an ombudsman for the site, or that people should pay to be able to leave comments, or that things should generally be more egalitarian interesting and even useful. At the same time, these suggestions require much more time and effort on the part of those that run the site. Which begs the question…
As the Honorable Judge Smails asked in “Caddyshack:” Don’t you people have jobs?
All of this is free, no one gets paid for anything (recent, no doubt minimal, advertising dollars notwithstanding), and you get to pretty much say whatever you think. And the authors respond directly to YOU most of the time.
Has anyone else ever been ignored or treated unfairly? It happens to the best of us. Don’t take yourself so seriously. Be thankful that offensive comments receive more than even minimal consideration before they are deleted.
And learn to be gracious while you’re at it. Your kids are watching your every move.
More precasts with Jalopnik. They were entertaining while they lasted.
rottenbob –
The Aveo5 that TTAC reviewed last fall is a carryover model and still on sale. Given TTAC’s reputation of not whitewashing car reviews, it’s hard to line complimentary test vehicles, never mind in advance of market introduction.
And, let’s not forget that the Aveo is designed & built by GMDAT. The new Aveo sedan is a joint venture between GMDAT and SAIC. And that’s about as American as kim chee and dim sum, to use a horrible gastronomic analogy.
Patriotism in terms of car purchases is misplaced. By blindly buying American, you are saying that the 2.5 need not compete or don’t have to compete with foreign car makers. The 2.5 have or have had the resources to compete and have failed to do so for whatever reasons. With their backs against the wall, those companies can choose to learn from their failures or die. That is good ole capitalism at its best.
So, to completely skip over the whole flame war about domestic vs foreign, I have two things.
1: As someone who has had a post deleted for inappropriate language, I appreciate that RF polices the comments section. As someone who looks at many sites with user generated comments, this is an oasis of civility and if it degenerated to something like this I’d be gone faster than an STI with an aftermarket chip.
2: The short articles are great opinion pieces, almost flame bait, and the true genius of the site is the comment section where everyone fights it out.
PS: I’m jealous of all of you who drive a nice car, until I blow by you in traffic on my nice bicycle!
I agree with earlier comments that you should practice a bit more professionalism in your articles. You guys are obviously talented writers; it’s beneath you to call people childish names. Further, you don’t need to take such a venomous tone in your articles, especially the death watches. I don’t doubt that you want GM, Ford, and DC to survive and I appreciate the tough love you’re trying to exercise, but too often it sounds like the writer has a grudge.
I’d like to see more reviews. I know that’s hard to do when you’re a startup with an atypical philosophy and a shoestring budget. Just sayin’…
Videos can be cool but they’re hard and expensive to do well. I like podcasts but I didn’t warm-up to the TTAC casts when I tried them. I still think there’s potential there, however.
I’d like to see more high quality photography. I think that’s an area that print still does way better than websites. Obviously, print has a physical advantage over the web, but you recently added some good stuff on your masthead.
I think you could set yourself apart (which fits in with your mission/philosophy) by putting more emphasis on good camera work. Which isn’t the same as simply adding lots of high resolution photos. Which is what other sites tend to do. Which is fine to a point. Which is often exceeded. Okay, I’ll stop with that.
I like the way the writers read & respond to comments when appropriate. They usually do a good job of balancing that interaction by often allowing comments to stand on their own.
Finally, I like the way you monitor the comments section to delete the knuckleheads’ posts. No matter what else you change, don’t let the comments section become a cesspool like most others have become.
Thanks for asking
RF –
I do not always agree with you. I do, however, read TTAC eagerly as often as possible. As the son of an GM retiree, and Detroit area (since relocated) I take personal interest in the possible demise of the Big 3.
Most posters on this site have interesting things to say. I believe than comments which out of hand dismiss products from any one company are unhelpful. Do I think that Toyota has built one hell of a pickup? Yes. Credit where credit is due. Do I think that it looks good? No.
I would like to make the following observations – I honestly believe you are somewhat biased against BMW. They seem pretty nice to me, but I haven’t spent lots of time in them. Perhaps it’s just that you like to present an opposing view, since the rest of the automotive press (buff books specifically) can’t utter one negative thing about BMW.
I actually believe that the caliber of the GM Death Watch series has fallen off. I interpret this to mean that GM is doing more things right. Honestly, you’ve taken GM to task lately for some trivial issues, when I expect to read about the 2007 labor negotiations, and some senarios that you think are likely, and which will be successful, etc. The only other thing that I take issue with is that you’ve repeatedly said that if in charge of GM, you would declare bankruptcy, and start anew. To me this seems like running from a fight, but then again, I’m not billions of dollars in debt.
On a final note, I did not find the comment regarding prostitution in Asia to be offending. Maybe because I’ve been there, and yes, that goes on. Instead of writing this website, go ahead and email your congressmen and senators, asking what US policy on this is, and what we are doing to stop it.
Just for the record, I currently drive an import, and six of my last seven vehicles have been imports. So it’s not like I’m some anti-import fanatic. I’m simply saying that (a) I can understand how readers of TTAC infer an anti-domestic bent and (b) TTAC and it’s poster community generally fail to recognize patriotism as a legitimate factor in the purchase decision of a new car.
Why is patriotism a legitimate factor for new car buyers? The fact is that our nation is experiencing a significant trade imbalance. Many consumers, in the spirit of patriotism, are choosing to puchase domestic vehicles because they don’t want to contribute to the growing trade deficit. A lot of these people may be automotive enthusiasts who feel this web site doesn’t give domestics a fair shake.
Robert, one of the qualities I have most appreciated about this site is your attempt to create a “flame free zone.” I assume this takes a lot of extra work that is not terribly lucrative (at least in the short run).
I would nevertheless like to suggest a bit less “attitude” when sending out your anti-flame emails to those of us with a track recording of making thoughtful and civil comments.
I received an email from you the other day and it made me wonder whether you had placed me in the category of a low-grade flamer. Frankly, that’s insulting, particularly given the tone of my “offending” missive.
Rotten Rob,
Patriatism is not legitimate because as I said, Chrysler is German, the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico and was designed by the Japanese, your Silverado was built in Canada and it is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
For Mr Farago and the staff:
I have been a moderator for a discussion-based forum with several million posts, almost a million threads, several hundred thousand viewings a day, ten thousand posts a day, 100 moderators, and perhaps 2000 members on-line on any given time.
And I can say that you are doing a-okey. Someone is always gonna feel hurt in some way. It is unavoidable. Moderating is about weighing interests, so that as many as possible will be pleased. If problems occur, you solve them one at the time. If the shit hits the fan, the you take out your broomstick and start sweeping. There will be calm moments, there will be moments like hell has risen, there will be easy times, there will be tough times. The thing is, it is never gonna be perfect. There is no such thing as a walk in the park when it comes to individual standpoints in a discussion. The problems you have seen and tried to sort out is business as usual when it comes to discussion-groups. You have to decide what You have to do, what Your ways are, to make this jungle of a board a desirable place to be.
I know that you, Mr Farago, is good at listening to people. you are good at weighing what’s right and what’s wrong, and then decide the best way to go. Have faith in that sensibility, because that intiutive knowledge is what have led you this good so far. As they say in Star Wars: The force is strong with this one. At the end of the day, that is what drives this site forward.
To all who replied to rottenrob.
READ WHAT HE SAID AGAIN.
He never said patriotism was a justified reason for buying a car. He just said it exists and should be recognized by TTAC as (god forbid) a legitimate reason that some people buy cars.
Shakes head…. wow…
I think we can all agree that this ‘townhall’ get together has been good, RF you should do this maybe quarterly or bi annually so you can get feed back on the site etc, and help take it further and farther and we can say what we feel needs to be addressed, without the worry of repurcussions and thats healthy.
Keep it up.
1984,
I understand that patriotism is a reason that some people buy cars. Like my uncle (27-years in the Navy, four tours in Vietnam), who for years and years whenever I picked him up from the airport work say to me, “What’s wrong with an American car?”
But just because this mentatlity exists, doesn’t make it legitimate. Case in point, my uncle just bought a Toyota after decades of non-reliable Fords. As he explained to me, “It’s built in the USA.”
Arrrrg! I hate the internet or text in general.
I never said it MAKES it legitimate. It’s a legitimate REASON for some people… not your own… my own… or TTAC.
Why is patriotism a legitimate factor for new car buyers? The fact is that our nation is experiencing a significant trade imbalance. Many consumers, in the spirit of patriotism, are choosing to puchase domestic vehicles because they don’t want to contribute to the growing trade deficit.
I’m as American as can be, a true New England Yankee, with family roots that branch out into the upper midwest.
In July of 2006, I bought a new 2006 Honda EX Civic coupe.
The car was assembled in Canada, and the 5-speed transmission came from Japan. (In my ’96 Civic both engine and tranny came from Japan.) Honda is adding capacity to build more trannys here, so it’s a safe bet that the next Civic I might buy will have 100% (North) American parts content.
However…
The 8th generation Civic coupe was designed in Ohio.
*Safe to assume Americans designed/engineered the car?
According to the Window sticker, the engine in my car was made in the U.S.A.
*I’d assume Americans built the engine.
The car was purchased from an American Honda dealer. *The salesman, and the Internet sales manager are Americans. (Dunno if the owner is American.)
The car is serviced by an American Honda dealer. *The service managers and the technicians all appear to be Ameicans to me.
To protect the 16″ alloy wheels, and gain some winter traction, I purchased 15″ snow tires & steel wheels, which came from an American company(Tire Rack), which employs Americans.
The 15″ Honda-brand plastic winter hubcaps I also purchased came from a Honda parts distribution warehouse right here in Connecticut, where Americans are employed. (I even met an American guy who works there.)
After I got them home from the dealership parts department (the head of that parts department is an American), I opened up the boxes the 15″ wheel covers came in to look ’em over.
While the front (street) side of the covers have the typical Honda “H” molded into them, to my (pleasant) suprise, molded into the back side is this: “Made in the USA” So somewhere in America, there is a factory, and American factory workers making them for American consumers. As these covers come stock on DX-level Civics, it’s a safe bet that they’re making a lot of them, too.
I’ve changed my engine lube over to Mobil 1 synthetic oil.
Mobil certainly employs lots of Americans. (And, I’m not dependent on foreign oil for that small part of running the car.
As the Civic is averaging 32+ MPG (in 90% city driving), I’ll bet the car uses a lot less (foreign-sourced) oil than many (“American”) vehicles do: How much gas (made from mostly foreign oil) does an Expidition, Suburban, or other large SUV use in its lifetime? Compare that to a “foreign” car like a Honda Civic. In the spirit of patriotisim, I’ll feel pretty (flag-waving) good when filling up my gas-sipping car; “We are addicted to oil,” may well come to mind while at the pumps.
My car is insured by Amica, based in Providence, R.I., which is American owned, and employs (my fellow) Americans..
When I purchased the car, I paid sales tax and registration fees to the State of Connecticut, where Americans work for the state.
Not sure how much more a (North) American car I could have purchased. And aside from assembly point, I sure am contributing to the American economy by purchasing and servicing the car here in the U.S.A.
A lot of these people may be automotive enthusiasts who feel this web site doesn’t give domestics a fair shake.
As I mentioned above, this sites’ reviews of 3 different variations of the new 8th generation Honda Civic were pretty darned critical of many aspects of the cars, from the instrument panel (IP), to the exterior design, to the horsepower. There’s not much left to the car after that…
Finally: Many consumers, in the spirit of patriotism, are choosing to puchase domestic vehicles…
Fair enough. But to me, this silently implies that those who choose cars made by other companies are less patriotic to some degree than someone who buys a new Ford, or GM, or ooopsss–can’t say Chrysler–ther’re owned (at least in whole or part) by the Germans.
So, in the spirit of being patriotic, I should have bought a Ford or GM, is how that comes across to me.
Just my take on it.
However, to insure I’m truly patriotic, I could buy a Ford or GM vehicle–but only after first double-checking where the car and its various parts were sourced; and then I’d need to make sure exactly where it was assembled, too.
Being patriotic takes more effort than I would have thought.
Oh, and…
Here in Connecituct, each of the 169 cities and towns in the state levy a “personal property tax” on our rides. :-(
The local property tax on your ride depends on how high a value they assign to your whip. More value = more taxes.
Conversley, as your car depreciates, your taxes go down. From a local tax perspective, then, the longer you hang on to your ride, the better. Therefore, long-term car reliability becomes a key. (New England Yankees are frugal, after all.) ;-)
We pay property taxes–every year–on our cars (foreign or otherwise), which contribute to local American K-12 education (teacher salarys, etc.) in our schools; for American road maintainence (crews), and so on down the line.
A “foreign” car can contribute to a lot of American incomes.
:-)
RF & Co:
Love the site. Keep it up. I’ve been reading TTAC for a few months now…commenting for a week or two…..and I’ll be with you going forward.
One thing that comes to mind is sales figures. Can you provide links to sites (or the data itself) that report vehicle manufacturers sales, by month, by model? Or even provide guidance as to the best way to find these sites?
Labrat et al:
I empathize with your situation. I also grew up in metro Detroit — my Dad and two Grandfather’s were Big 3 guys. I even interned within Ford’s Finance group while at U of M. After graduating in ’99 I moved to Boston (girlfriend, now wife) where I’ve been for the last eight years. When I got here, even as ‘educated’ as I was, I thought Cadillacs and Lincolns were the best vehicles money could buy, bar none. It took me a few years to start to see the truth (BMW / M-B / Lexus / Acura), and then to acknowledge Honda and Toyota, and get past the stages of denial and mourning — and then to acceptance.
I hear what you are saying about Death Watches being “hard to read”. Honestly, I have a difficult time reading them from 700 miles away — although my entire family is still there. I don’t know how you are able to make it through those articles and work for the 2.5 at the same time. Kudos to you. That said, I think the articles continue to shed light on the problems. It amazes me how many intelligent individuals back home are brainwashed when it comes to automobiles. It makes me sick. The more and more I research and observe, the more it seams the Big 2.5 make vehicles for themselves, for their neighborhoods. Sure, the cooling systems are testing in Death Valley — but the suspensions are designed to be driven around metro Detroit (i.e., gliding over huge pot holes, which is why their cars can’t ‘corner’ or ‘handle’). Just my two cents.
At any rate, I sincerely hope the 2.5 are on the path to recovery, if for nothing more than competitions sake. The business model is going to look a lot different than it did in the last century…but that is what the global economy demands.
Glenns
You make a good case well thought out and well written.
Ask yourself this, what company/companys contibute more to the U.S/ Canadian economy.
I’m talking good paying jobs,taxes,profits,charity just compare the 2.5 in every level of taxes.including number of
employees,
Just imagine where the North American economy would be without the 2.5.
Could the transplants replace the 2.5?
Would they pay half decent wages without the UAW/CAW
breathing down thier neck?
I don’t think so and I don’t want to find out.
I’ll stick to buying domestic thank you very much.
My only concern has been the banning of posters.
I live by the rule that you attack the idea but not the poster. I can see where trouble can occur when some of the posts degrade to, “I’ll run my V8 and see if you can keep up in your Jap crap” form of “debate”.
As far as any anti-domestic bias by the staff I personally don’t see any. But from the beginning, RF has invited those that would offer a counterpoint to submit articles for publication here. If there are those that feel strongly about it, start submitting.
I still enjoy the Death Watch series as I find them to be insightful and educational. I also enjoyed the racing articles, but I understand that I may in the minority.
The only suggestion I would make is more reviews of regular cars. An Impala LTZ with the 3.9 V6 review to go along with the rental and SS review would give a comparative balance. I would also advise reviewers to state their opinions on cars while taking into account what that particular car costs.
Ask yourself this, what company/companys contibute more to the U.S/ Canadian economy.
I’m talking good paying jobs,taxes,profits,charity just compare the 2.5 in every level of taxes.including number of
employees,
Just imagine where the North American economy would be without the 2.5.
Could the transplants replace the 2.5?
Would they pay half decent wages without the UAW/CAW
breathing down thier neck?
I don’t think so and I don’t want to find out.
I’ll stick to buying domestic thank you very much.
With the 2.5 eliminating manufacturing jobs and falling all over themselves to base more and more production offshore, I’m not seeing your point.
My question to you would be, are you as careful in all your other purchases as you are with your cars to make sure they are American?
Um…. isn’t more than 30 years of the domestics making worse cars than the competition costing more American jobs than me buying foreign?
Thanks again for all the feedback. I’m in digestion mode. Um, maybe there’s a better way to say that…
# Jonny Lieberman:
January 9th, 2007 at 2:47 am
Rotten Rob,
Patriatism is not legitimate because as I said, Chrysler is German, the Ford Fusion is made in Mexico and was designed by the Japanese, your Silverado was built in Canada and it is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
The point is that while you pile all over patriotism as a reason for buying a car, few people do the same for “environmentalism”–another reason that can also be shown to be patently absurd (much more quickly than you could complete a discussion about NAFTA and Mexico).
I could argue that Prius owners are absurd since true environmentalists shouldn’t be driving to begin with.
Anyway. Please do not construe my comments in any way to be an endorsement of any particular “car-buying philosophy” (whatever that is). I have my own peculiar criteria.
(Anyways, as an aside, you’ve mis-spelled “patriotism” twice.)
TTAC improvements I’d like to see:
1. A link to the precast.
2. More interviews with industry “people”.
3. A reduction in the tiresome caveats in SUV reviews.
People have been whining about their handling and fuel use for about a decade now.
Simply review the vehicle on its merits please.
4. A mention of exterior aesthetics. (As stated earlier.).
I value the moderated comments. When civility is maintained, everyone can participate. No bullies, no shouting down reasoned opinions. If you have to wreck someone else-then your point is too weak.
I thought despite the age of this thread to insert my comments here lest they be too uncharitable to the publisher and columnists:
Sometimes when I read this site it feels like I’m reading commentary from another planet. Not that differing viewpoints are a bad thing, but I think this site needs a little more depth.
What I mean by this is that, especially with respect to the DW/SW series, it’s really all a matter of perspective. I live in Regina, Saskatchewan, and perhaps the market will get to where it is in California someday, but as of this moment domestics are still very popular, in Canada as a whole and on the prairies in particular.
Chalk it up to rural yokel ignorance if you must, but where I was raised the “Big 2.5” are not on life support. This site tries to review trucks but I always come away from reading the reviews with a bad taste of condescension. There’s poseur truck buyers here just like there is everywhere, but in farm/industrial settings like mine these trucks aren’t just being sold to the village people, they’re being sold to people who need these units for work.
While I’m certainly aware that many of TTAC’s columnists hail from Texas, aka The Centre of the Universe for Trucks, I still don’t feel like my worldview is being represented here. While I like the site and read almost every article, I still feel like something’s lacking.