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Who killed the electric vehicle? Range and recharge times. Alt propulsion supporters are happy to compromise “normal” modern day purchase parameters– a car’s looks, acceleration, cargo capacity, passenger space, safety, towing, convenience, range, price, etc.– to cater to their political or environmental beliefs. Mainstream consumers are not. In other words, GM’s EV1 was not a mainstream vehicle. Hence its demise. The question for GM’s E-Flex Propulsion people now becomes: will the Volt EVer be ready for prime time? If so, will it be ready in time, or will transplant technology pass it by? Press play below for Part two of my interview with E-Flex Propulsion Systems' Line Director Tony Posawatz.
25 Comments on “Volt Birth Watch 2: GM’s E-Flex Propulsion Systems Geek Speaks… Again...”
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From my personal perspective, I want one for our next primary vehicle. Except for occasional longer trips, all of our driving (mainly my wife)are shorter to very short trips. And electricity is cheap in the NW; as it comes mostly from (non CO contributing) hydro-power. We would be looking at about a penny a mile for fuel costs. Pretty compelling package.
The range extending generator is also critical, as we do make long distance drives several time a year. That’s where a pure EV falls short.
The only time I’d see a gas station would be on a road trip.
Honestly, I almost can’t believe I would ever desire a GM product. So GM, the Volt is the key to getting me inside a GM showroom.
If GM pulls this off, I’ll be very pleasantly surprised.
It would be surprising and might save GM. it would also be a huge blow to conspiracy theorists.
I’m all for it, and hopefull that they can pull it off.
Here’s a practical quibble: no doubt, this car will be popular as an urban runabout, for city dwellers on short trips. But plenty of city folk don’t have a garage, driveway or even a front lawn, they rely on street parking. So to recharge, it’s not practical (and probably illegal) to run a extension cords across public rights of way. How do Volt’s designers deal with is issue?
Could the battery cells be light enough, and easy to access, so that they could be brought indoors for a recharge? Just a thought.
That podcast could have been a lot shorter and just as informative. Posawatz, as near as I could tell, didn’t actually answer any questions with any hard information. The car is, clearly, years away. To introduce for a regular 2010 model year introduction, in Fall 2009, wouldn’t they have to have the car nailed down NOW?
More random thoughts:
“We’re waiting for the battery technology to catch up?”
GM may be but Toyota is not. They are reportedly putting Li-ion into the 2009 Prius. Popular Mechanics, March ’07, has a picture, and AutoExpress is reporting on the Li-ion tech update.
GM is tolerating long time-to-market in favor of a car with few or no compromises? I can’t believe that GM marketing hasn’t noticed that people who buy these things ARE willing to make compromises. The Prius, for more money, gets a modest fuel economy gain and doesn’t offer particularly hot performance. People are happily driving Rav4-EVs with 100-120 mile ranges and multi-hour recharge times. GM could probabaly produce an electric turd and sell 2500 copies/month. Build or get off the pot!
At least Toyota has some technology to share (or not share). What does GM have?
I am not opposed to the electric car thing at all. But the GM’s Volt is simply a PR stunt. Toyota/Honda will simply beat GM to the finish line, even if GM holds on.
I am 100% sure that Toyota/Honda also have similar projects. The only difference is that once they show their concept cars, the cars will be in dealerships within a year.
The big “2.5” as they are known at TTAC, have reportedly asked the Federal government to provide $500 million, over the next five years, for research on battery technology, sufficient to make electric cars palatible to the American public, from a marketing standpoint. Their assertion is that this is necessary to avoid losing the technology race to Toyota, et al.
My source here is a short new item in the April issue of Car and Driver. It was never reported, in anything I read, whether the head honcos of the 2.5, when they recently visited the White House and showed the president a plug-in hybrid, pitched this idea, again (assuming that some flacks pitched it, previously).
Sadly, WE, the taxpayer, have been providing $100s of millions, possibly billions, since 1990 for higher mpg, cleaner engines, hydrogen, fuel cells, batteries, electric and hydraulic hydrids, EVs, diesel, … the list goes on.
Has anyone been able to buy one?
I’ll bet if you check the BIG 3 (and their European partners) on this list, you will find some of the technology WE paid for showing up in Europe in their high mpg vehicles.
What do you think with those 40 to 55 mpg vehicles DCX, FORD, and GM (and their partners)?
Not one of the domestic BIG 3 vehicles get over 35 mpg combined average according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov. It is funny the difference an ocean makes.
If you really want to see what can be done look at the 69 mpg(US) combined diesel/electric hybrid Peugeot 308 expected by 2009.
Then there is the Honda USA diesel expected in 2009. A 1.7 liter is needed in Europe to meet CO2 reduction (required shortly after 2009) would probably result in 50 to 60 mpg(US) combined average.
For EVIs, if you track the energy back to the power plant, I suspect that it will require 2 to 4X greater energy than either a diesel or hybrid electric vehicle. And most electrical enery off peak is coal in the USA. I do agree that the EV usually moves the pollution out of high congestion areas … BUT NOT ALWAYS.
That is why I think we need to insist that Representative Markey push for 44 mpg by 2010. If we don’t get 44 mpg, then waive import restrictions on vehicles that achieve 44 mpg(US), or greater, from Europe and Asia IF they meet Euro Step IV, V, or VI.
“At least GM shares technology. Toyota does not”
Say what? Ford and Nissan are both licensed users of Toyota hybrid technology.
“Nissan won’t rely on Toyota’s hybrid technology for long, Ghosn says”
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060426/FREE/60426001/1024/LATESTNEWS
“Ford to Use Toyota Hybrid Technology”
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000452.html
If you want to slam Toyota, at least get your facts straigh!
Kixstart,
GM and Toyota will use Lithium battery very differently. The a serial hybrid like the E-flex/Volt is much harder on batteries, as they are the sole means of propulsion. Parallel hybrids like the Prius run off the gas engine most of the time, and don’t use the batteries nearly as hard.
I’m with Paul. I’d love to buy a car that can save me $800 a year in fuel costs. Even if it came from GM!
I was very impressed by the interview. Robert asked very pointed questions, and Tony was honest and as forthcoming as he could be.
I know we are frustrated that GM previewed the Volt ~3 years before it could be ready for production, but how long did we wait for the Veyron? the Skyline GT-R, that Porsche sedan?
Or did you think it was pure coincidence that those ‘spy shots’ were captured at the exact moment when Brenda Priddy just happened to have her camera out?
It’s progress. I have a wait and see attitude but it’s better than it was 10 years ago.
I’m with KixStart – I didn’t get any real facts to questions.
This whole thing reminds me – once upon a time, a grizzled veteran took this young rookie under his wing and told him “Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see and you’ll go home safe every night”.
I’ve seen nothing and heard about the same, from a company I’m not inclined to believe anyway, about a subject they have no record of credibility on.
Sadly, WE, the taxpayer, have been providing $100s of millions, possibly billions, since 1990 for higher mpg, cleaner engines, hydrogen, fuel cells, batteries, electric and hydraulic hydrids, EVs, diesel, … the list goes on.
Has anyone been able to buy one?
A diesel? Yes. Definitely, people have purchased diesels. Oh, and higher MPG and cleaner engines, too.
Some people even have hybrids, with batteries in them, I’m told. Even cars not made in Japan!
For EVIs, if you track the energy back to the power plant, I suspect that it will require 2 to 4X greater energy than either a diesel or hybrid electric vehicle. And most electrical enery off peak is coal in the USA. I do agree that the EV usually moves the pollution out of high congestion areas … BUT NOT ALWAYS.
Wow…that’s…very wrong. A large portion of off-peak energy in the us is nuclear. Nuclear is always used for base load.
I don’t know where you get the 2x to 4x “figure” from. The new combined cycle turbines (whether they’re coal or natural gas powered) are approaching 60% efficiency. Transmission losses to get the power to your house are negligible – about 1%.
An electric drivetrain should be highly efficient – much more so than an ICE or Diesel drivetrain. A motor is more efficient than an engine and you don’t have a transmission to worry about – or at worst a vastly simplified one.
Furthermore, it’s much easier to control pollution at one large source (power plant) than at many smaller sources (cars). This also gives people the option of charging their car using the renewable energy programs that many utilities now offer.
BTW – I’m not trying to defend coal. Generally, it dirty, nasty, and horribly polluting from mining to the smokestack. But there are other options.
The Volt is not without its problems – but if you’re going to be critical at least get your facts straight and stop spreading misinformation.
Remember when GM demo’d their first hybrid SUV, but it was just a representation. It was really just a gasoline SUV with a plastic engine cover that said Hybrid. See GM DW:20. Anyway, the Volt is the same thing and empty hat for market purposes.
RF: “Do you have any prototypes running?”
GM Hack: “We have ummmmm…. some… varients of engineering mule veh-blah blah blah… NO”
Has anyone seen a GM hybrid yet?
I agree with you, msmiles, this is all hot air so far. If GM can’t get this to market VERY quickly they’ve already lost in my eyes. Does anyone on earth think that the Prius will stay the same until the Volt comes out? Or that Honda won’t pull some trick from their sleeves? I hear Toyota is looking at a hybird Corolla as well… I’ve even heard Toyota plans a hybrid version of each of it’s cars by 2010. Which is about when the Volt will come out, having already become obsolete.
To step up in this game you have to be able to work fast on important models. GM still can’t see the future will have more and more hybrids, now that it has become a real, proven option.
Not only that, Toyota may possibly bring out a new RWD small coupe. The only niche I can think of where GM has an advantage is trucks, and that niche just doesn’t look so good right now.
It’s one thing to wait on a sports car or supercar, it’s another thing to wait on a daily driver. Halo cars shine a light on a company even before their release. Companies take their time on sports cars and halo models because they don’t need to sell that many; a car like the Volt could be a very important part of GM’s future bottom line. People will only be looking for the real thing (even the Prius succeeded because it was the real thing – I’ve driven one, they are practical, useful daily drivers). For cars like that time is even MORE essential.
Speaking of hybrid GM vehicles, what happened to the light-hybrid option for GM’s pickup trucks? A few years ago they were being rolled out in a few markets. The idea was that the cost adder would be relatively small, fuel economy gains modest but real, and a side benefit was that the system also provided a 110V power outlet in the bed for contractors to use as a short term power supply for their tools. Seemed like a reasonable idea, yet it quitely seems to have simply vanished.
msmiles: Has anyone seen a GM hybrid yet?
I think by now just about everyone has seen a Vue, Silverado, & Aura. This summer we’ll see Tahoes and Yukons. What’s the point?
SherbornSean: The Aura Greenline is great, and it would be nice if GM sold a ton. But it’s not Prius, the mileage estimates are 28/35… I drove a Prius regularly for a month and consistently got around 50 mpg, even when I took a highway trip from Tampa to Orlando. The Camry hybrid gets 40/38. GM is behind, and if they intend to compete they need to get a better product to market fast.
SherbornSean wrote, “The a serial hybrid like the E-flex/Volt is much harder on batteries, as they are the sole means of propulsion.”
I’m not sure I agree with you. I can’t see any reason why the ICE/generator shouldn’t be able to power the electric drive motors directly when conditions require it, so the battery is not the sole source of propulsion (although you could say the electric drive motors are the sole source of propulsion).
Replying to SherbornSean:
I know we are frustrated that GM previewed the Volt ~3 years before it could be ready for production, but how long did we wait for the Veyron? the Skyline GT-R, that Porsche sedan?
Well, none of the cars that you mention is a money maker. (The Porsche sedan is not out yet and is not waiting on new technology, so it’s not a good indicator.)
If you see some similarity between the Volt and the Veyron, then you are right. And I seriously doubt that’s a good thing for the Volt. The Veyron is one of the major causes that 20,000 VW workers lost their jobs.
As of now, GM doesn’t need a Veyron fighter. It needs a Prius/Corolla/Camry fighter(s).
If the VOLT currently has a 28 mile ALL ELECTRIC RANGE and a TOTAL RANGE of over 500 miles (over 650 miles in one report) before refueling with an mpg of about 50 mpg (combined/highway?) … isn’t that a 40 or 50 mpg combined average hybrid … without plug-in!
If GM used a modular upgradable battery pack that allowed a field trade-in upgrade retrofit (like the PC feature cards) … they could be in the market today … if they REALLY WANTED TO!?? The 40 mile “all electric range” could then be up-graded when the battery technology arrived … soon or never!
Drew (4/2/07): “I don’t know where you get the 2x to 4x “figure” from. The new combined cycle turbines (whether they’re coal or natural gas powered) are approaching 60% efficiency. Transmission losses to get the power to your house are negligible – about 1%.”
I’m not certain about you electrical engineering background. So here goes a rough analysis: 1 stepup transformer (probably really 2) and 3 stepdown transformers plus transmission lines each with about 2% loss results in a 91% efficiency plus your 60% generating efficiency results in a 46% loss to the “wall outlet”. Then add the efficiencies of the vehicle power conversion/charging system, batteries, motor controls, and motors at 99% efficiency each results in 95% efficiency for the vehicle. Overall efficiency for te total system is about 50% (assuming the high efficieny gas fired turbine generators … generally used for peak management).
So if the VOLT requires 0.5 kwhr/mile that translates to 1 kwhr at the generator (in round numbers) or about the equivalent of 1/40 of a gallon of bio diesel.
It should be noted that by 2010 Europe will have one or more vehicles that will get 2 miles out of that 1/40 gallon of diesel!
As far as electrical power generation goes, it is my understanding that substantually more than 50% of the base load is provided by coal fired plants (most of which are older systems at lower efficiencies that have not been upgraded to significantly reduce emissions) … not nuclear! I do agree that gas fired facilities (usually spinning reserve) are about 66% cleaner than coal.
I am not trying to say that EV’s are “bad” only that they do pollute at “remote” locations. And that in the total scheme of things, they are about equal to “traditional” vehicle technology for gasseous, particulate, and thermal emissions.
The downside for coal fired energy sourcing is a set of fairly “bad actors” like sulfur, mercury, CO2, and particulates … plus others based on the coal source.
All hybrids are marketing stunts. At least GM is not wasting money they don’t have on actually building them. If you want 50mpg, match the Prius’s pathetic performance by driving around in 4th gear all the time or better yet, get a Japanese car from the 80s and enjoy it’s 14 second 0-60 time and comparable milage.
How does the volt compare to the Opel Corsa diesel/electric hybrid?
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/08/gm-opel-to-pres.html