You'd think GM would have enough greens on its proverbial plate, what with its lackluster hybrid sales, the prospect of more lackluster hybrid sales (anyone fancy a two-mode two-ton hybrid SUV?) and the problem of inventing batteries for a plug-in hybrid that's due on the showroom floor in three years. But no; the automaker was into hydrogen fuel cells when hydrogen fuel cells were hot (cold?). So here we are with a fleet of 100 hydrogen fuel cell-equipped Chevrolet Equinox. Might as well gets some PR for the things. And USA Today is happy to play along, 'cause you know it could be the next Next Big Thing. "GM is working as hard and fast as we can for competitive reasons, rather than as pure research on a promising technology." This according to Larry Burns, GM vice president in charge of research and development. Never mind the fact that there isn't a hydrogen infrastructure to support these vehicles (or enough vehicles to support the hydrogen infrastructure). The race is on! Meanwhile, maybe GM should try to do something with the gas-powered Equinox to make it more competitive. No? Alright then. Let's plan on fitting the new Volt with hydrogen fuel cells and leasing customers the expensive power pack, you know, eventually. Sounds like a plan to me!
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Well, there is sort of a hydrogen infrastructure. There’s a _huge_ amount of hydrogen being produced right now in the U. S., about half of it for agriculture (to make nitrogen for fertilizer) and half to scrub sulfur out of diesel fuel. There’s enough right now to fuel literally millions of fuel-cell vehicles. There are a couple hundred hydrogen-producing plants all over the country, all of them within easy range (like 100 miles) of the 100 major metro areas, and GM estimates that a hydrogen-station infrastructure could be built for $10 to $15 billion that would put a hydrogen station within two miles of 70 percent of Americans plus every 25 miles on the major Interstates. Sounds like a lot, but it’s the cost of five to seven B-2s (including developmetn costs).
The real problem is nobody wants to invest even $10 to $15 thousand before there’s a need for the stations, and nobody wants to buy a hydrogen car before there are plenty of stations.
I drove the Equinox FCV, and the remarkable thing about it is that it’s unremarkable–a real car. I don’t want one, but who cares?
Stephan Wilkinson :
GM estimates that a hydrogen-station infrastructure could be built for $10 to $15 billion that would put a hydrogen station within two miles of 70 percent of Americans plus every 25 miles on the major Interstates.
Assuming that’s true (I have problems believing GM PR), what would it accomplish? One way or another, it takes energy (i.e. carbon) to make hydrogen. Where’s the net gain?
Unless you build tens of thousands of alt. power hydrogen production stations. Good luck with that idea.
The pursuit of the new “energy monopoly” continues. Gawd… I hope people are smart enough not to buy into this.
Plus: The Hydrogen Infrastructure will keep jobs that already exist with the fossil fuel setup.
Minus: Said “infrastructure” will be soooo bloody inefficient that there will be a net increase in energy consumption.
Side benefit: Tailpipe emissions will be collected in an on-board tank and later bottled under an arrangement between Shell Oil and the Coca-Cola companies… er, Moto-Fina?
GM calculates that there is a substantial well-to-wheels net energy gain when I asked about that. Of course, you’re again left believing GM PR…
One thing that amused me about the car, by the way: of course it emits nothing but tepid water vapor, no emissions. You’d think that to stress that point maybe they’d build the Equinox with no tailpipe, let the water vapor come out in some hidden area under the car. No: they gave the Equinox FCV _four_ exhaust outlets, each of them large and rectangular, to, ah, make the pont that there aren’t any emissions….
Yep. Another day and another unsustainable promise from the Big 2.8. Anyway…who holds these guys accountable for all these empty promises? Waggyneer is like that kid in school who exaggerates and lies all the time. When you call him on something he can’t produce anything at the moment – maybe just a drawing or something he made with legos. He just hopes he gets the spotlight for 5 mins and no one ever follows up on the promised timeline.
GM estimates that a hydrogen-station infrastructure could be built for $10 to $15 billion that would put a hydrogen station within two miles of 70 percent of Americans plus every 25 miles on the major Interstates. Sounds like a lot, but it’s the cost of five to seven B-2s (including developmetn costs).
$15 billion is chump change. That’s under 2 months of funding our Iraq oil adventure.
Is there any reason why burning hydrogen does NOT produce NOx gases? I thought hydrogen burned very fast and hot, and that’s ideal for producing NOx, surely? Perhaps there’s a chemist who can help us out on this.
Also, liquid hydrogen is strange. When it turns to gas, it’ll seep through steel walls when under pressure, due to the tiny molecule size, and leads to hydrogen embrittlement of many metals.
Surely the brains of humans can come up with better ideas then using corn to make ethanol, or pressurizing hydrogen and carrying it around in a vehicle where it’ll all leak out in a week anyway, even if the engine is never started.
The hydrogen isn’t burned. It, and oxygen, flow quietly through the core of the fuel cell and thus create electricity–don’t ask me how; it’s juju. The other product of the chemical process is simply water vapor.
As for metal embrittlement, etc., the Equinox’s three hydrogen tanks are thick, filament-wound carbon-fiber affairs.
Before anybody brings up the Hindenburg, be aware that if hydrogen escapes somehow, it very quickly flows straight up and away, and if it burns, it dissipates so rapidly that there’s little heat. (What you see burning in Hindenburg photos is _not_ hydrogen, it’s aluminum-doped airship-skin fabric–hugely flammable stuff.)
If gasoline escapes, it puddles, typically under the car, while it collects and quietly awaits an ignition source. My volunteer ambulance corps responded to an MVA last year, single-car accident, young kid who probably fell asleep, hit a tree. When we got there, the car burst into flame, and there was nothing we could do but listen to him scream as he died, since none of our extinguishers were big enough to do any good on the huge fire and the fire trucks hadn’t arrived yet.
“Is there any reason why burning hydrogen does NOT produce NOx gases? I thought hydrogen burned very fast and hot, and that’s ideal for producing NOx, surely? Perhaps there’s a chemist who can help us out on this.”
“Burning” is a layman term for oxidizing. The reason you do not get NOx from hydrogen oxidation is that H2 and O go together like me and Riyo Mori. H2O is the most stable bond in the universe…As far as we know. Complete oxidation (burn) of a hydrocarbon yields H2O and CO2 – Plant food. How “Green” is that Hummer H1?
Need nuclear power to make hydrogen viable. It is a thermodynamics thing. There are also other problems with hydrogen fuel cells that need to be worked out…Like low temp performance and volatility.
“The hydrogen isn’t burned. It, and oxygen, flow quietly through the core of the fuel cell and thus create electricity–don’t ask me how; it’s juju. The other product of the chemical process is simply water vapor.”
That’s true of a fuel cell vehicle, but the BMW Hydrogen 7 uses conventional combustion?
Article on Spiegel.de
The reaction is the same in conventional combustion, although you will get some NOx in side reactions. Fuel cells do not produce NOx because the reaction mechanism is catalytic and nitrogen will not react on the catalyst.
2(H2) + (O2) => 2(H20)
Water vapor is an already abundant greenhouse gas…..if you believe that sort of thing. If this thing ever takes off, I will be investing in an umbrella factory.
1996MEdition :
November 6th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Water vapor is an already abundant greenhouse gas…..if you believe that sort of thing. If this thing ever takes off, I will be investing in an umbrella factory.
Water vapor is the most active of the green house gases. I’ve read that it is responsible for 90 odd percent of the green house effect. Shares an absorption window with CO2 as well. We’re screwed no matter what we put in the atmosphere. I think the only solution is cutting the world’s population down to about 1 billion. We need a volunteer population reduction list.
*sigh* It must be sad to be a Luddite….
Some day, people in our industry will realize a salient, undeniable, immutable fact: We are running out of oil. Say it with me: “We are running out of oil.” See, it didn’t really hurt.
That leaves two options: A. Wait, until the last drop has caused a war to invest in replacement technology. Or, B. start NOW investing in new technology, so that it can naturally evolve in the market before time and entropy force us into Option A.
Yes, we know there are logical flaws, logistical concerns and economic and scientific barriers to be conquered before fuel cells are economically viable. Henry Ford and Mr. Daimler had those, too, many decades ago. What you Luddites fail to frickin’ realize is that if we wait for the problems to be solved, it will never get done. What is needed is charisma, courage and some cojones. You namby-pamby whiney men who urge us to wait and stand still and do nothing while the world runs out of oil scare me. Also, I am quite certain that once the breakthroughs come that will make the HFC vehicles viable, you will say you were there with ’em all the time. If you don’t have a better idea, shut up, and let the innovators in our industry try and do something to make the future viable. If you have a better idea, love to hear it. Otherwise, crawl back into your basements, play your 33-1/3 vinyl albums and 8-tracks under your black lights and STFU while the rest of us grownups try to create a sustainable future for our children.
“Will everyone here, kindly step to the rear, and let the winners lead the way….”
You’re absolutely right, of course, but I frankly think we’re going to have to wait for a couple of generations, maybe three, to die off, so that we’re finally rid of the morons who think 600 hp is cool and 700 is better, plus the people who insist on eight-seat trucks so they can carry everybody and everything that possibly might want to one day all get into their vehicle at the same time.
The people who are now four and five years old, or maybe those who aren’t quite born yet, will be the salvation. Meanwhile, it’s hopeless.
Wilkinson, was it macabre day at your house? Between the poor kid dying in the car crash and the lack of faith in our generation, you might as well lock yourself in the garage with the Equinox and run fuel cell until you die of humidity.
Oh wait- you can substitue that for Florida.