Even as Chrysler CEO Bob Nardelli is talking of billion dollar losses, his Dodge Boys are declaring the yet-to-be-seen Challenger SRT8 a runaway hit. The Detroit News reports that over 6k customers plunked down deposits this week for the $37,995 retro musclecar– much to the glee of dealers, some of whom have been dodging tumbleweeds on the showroom floor for years. Over half of the Challenger preorders specified "Hemi Orange," with the rest divided evenly between black and silver (the only other colors available). Placing an order only guarantees a Challenger challenger a place in line. With 2008 production limited to 10K units, there's gonna be a whole lot of disappointed muscleheads. The real determination whether or not the Challenger is a sales champ arrives in 2009 when the full line of cars, styled after one of the worst-selling '70's pony cars, hits the streets (or not). At that point, the new Challenger will be going head-to-head with the new… wait for it… here it comes… Chevrolet Camaro. And, lest we forget, the old new Mustang.
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As the boomers move into retirement, I can imagine there could be a short spike in the sales of these nostalgia machines (i.e. the vehicle the boomers wanted but couldn’t afford when they were in their 20s) but it can’t be a long term success strategy. That cow is almost milked dry. And only a crackhead would want to expend any effort in resurrecting the long forgotten and not-lamented lame-mobiles of the late 70’s and early 80’s.
Mopar has tried everything else, why not boutique cars for geezers trying to relive their glory years? They can throw a bottle of Viagra into the glove boxes as a thank you.
This is the first car in a long time that made me say “I gotta have one of those!!” If it sells and makes money to spend on main stream vehicles, why not? It will sell just as well as a Mazdaspeed 3.
Yes skor I am a geezer, but these ARE the glory years. Oh, don’t forget to make that social security payment this month.
Take a gander at the Pontiac G8 reviews starting to pop up (engineering prototypes) or the Holden SS reviews. The reviews are good, very good. The Camaro will be lighter and carry more power then the G8 GT, its going to be a beast and unlike the Challenger is not an almost exact copy of a car from the 70’s. The Camaro is going to sell very, very well.
Not a single domestic car on the market today I have any interest in, even the Corvette (even if I could afford one) but the new Camaro is at the top of my list, hopefully I won’t be disappointed.
Might as well buy one now, just like the LT-1 Impala SS they aren’t gonna lose much value in the coming years. (I’m only talking about the HEMI models)
As the boomers move into retirement, I can imagine there could be a short spike in the sales of these nostalgia machines (i.e. the vehicle the boomers wanted but couldn’t afford when they were in their 20s) but it can’t be a long term success strategy.
That’s right on…..the retro design language (Chall./Camaro/etc.) doesn’t speak to anyone under 40. Retro didn’t work for Jag….or the Ford Thunderbird (Mustang it’s debatable), it won’t work for Chrysler.
The Challenger is the next one hit wonder.
The new “Camaro” is to be built in Oshawa, Ontario, maybe “Micky” could add some information on this new Model?
Sorry should read Mikey who works in Oshawa
I’m well under 40, and I dig the new ‘Maro. Its slowly starting to grow on me.
When I saw it at the Chicago car show this car made me say “I gotta have one of those”
and yes skor I am a “geezer” but these ARE the glory days. It will sell just as well as the Mazdaspeed 3, Just to a different niche group.
If it sells and makes money to spend on main stream cars, why not?
Oh, and don’t forget to make that social security payment. I will need the gas money.
Shouldn’t these sort of specialty cars be reserved for companies that have established themselves and are profitable? I honestly like the idea of the Challenger and Camaro, but this is not the market where profits are made.
As long as the proud owners of the new old Camaro and Challengers don’t wear the 70’s clothing we all used to wear, yuck! The viagra in the glove box however is worthy of attention. Are the cars going to be equipped with 8 track tape decks? Smokey and the Bandit lives!
I’m not a boomer either and I dig the Challenger. It’s going to be interesting to see if it’s successful. The Mustang is, but is there room for another? I do know that it better have a manual transmission if I’d ever take a look at one. Can’t comment on the Camaro, as Mopar fans of yore like to state: I hate Chevys.
The Camaro has only been dead for a few years and the Mustang has been continously made since it’s introduction, no reason they wouldn’t apeal to a younger set. The price when you add on the ‘sucker tax’ at the dealer might hold back the non nostalga crowd for the Camaro, in the beginning at least.
The Challenger on the other hand has been dead for a while and I barely remember it from some movie. Could care less about too much horsepower when gas costs too much.
Looks cool, but they should have concentrated engineering and design resources to fix the Sebring mess not make a low volume seller like this.
It is interesting that all of the companies that appear to be into this whole Retro thing are the companies that are having the most problems in todays current marketplace, GM, Ford, and Chysler. The rest appear to be content moving on into the future!
While there might be few older dudes that get it for the most parts cars like the Camaro and Challanger clearly speak of the desparation facing the domestic automakers. After 30 years of servrely limited innovation these companies are coming up sorely short today.
These cars are simply the product of washed out old men that need to retire fast. The 60s and 70s are OVER and have been so for 30 years now. I guess the Model T was once a great success so why not start making retro open bodied Model Ts again today? I bet if the guys running Detroit could live to the age of 150 and were still working today they WOULD resort to something equally as stupid.
JFK said it best; “The torch has been passed to a new generation” Unfortunately the new generation of exciting powerful “muscle” cars does exist today in a form that Detroit cant successfully produce. Today “muscle” is a 335i/M3, WRX, EXO, G35/37. Mazdaspeed3, Legacy GT, Mazdaspeed6, GTI, etc.
With the exxeption of the G35 all of these car embody the classic muscle car formula of taking a regular bread and butter car and turning it into a relative performance monster.
The Challanger and Camaro are nothing more than nastalgic day dreaming on the part of GM and Chysler execs. Unlike the folks over at Ford they have forgot the simple notion that a Muscle car is supposed to be inexpensive speed not a $40,000 wannabe luxury car.
Another issue Detroit needs to deal with is the fact that if they create a “new” Muscle car craze Toyota and Nissan have everything necessary to jump right into this game. RWD chassis, V8 engines, and VERY DEEP POCKETS! They did it with the SUV craze and they can and will do it again if the profit is there.
So Detroit would capture the loyal nastalgic over 50 crowd while Toyota and Nissan end up doing battle for the GROWING under 50 crowd. Regardless, Detroit is once again trying to open up a niche were other makers can quickly flood and spread out the profits.
This will be a flash in the pan, like a lot of other high end “retro” models (T-bird, SSR come to mind). Retro only seems to work if it’s cheap (PT Cruiser?). So at the end of the day, all retro styling seems to get you is an initial burst of sales by the early adopters. And to be fair, that’s not a bad way to sell a car – but it only works in the short term.
At that point, it’ll be going head-to-head with the new… wait for it… here it comes… Chevrolet Camaro. And, lest we forget, the old new Mustang.
It will also be competing with the Charger. I can see a lot of Charger (S)RT owners/shoppers getting into a Challenger.
IMO the Challenger is a long-term loser. So IF there is so much pent up demand for the Challenger, cut Charger production and crank out Challengers while you can still sell them.
Better yet, kill the Charger along with the Magnum. Most Dodge dealerships are Chrysler dealerships anyway, so take the Charger customers who want a HEMI and put them in a Challenger, and the ones who want the “Big American” sedan in a 300.
whatdoiknow1 : It is interesting that all of the companies that appear to be into this whole Retro thing are the companies that are having the most problems in todays current marketplace, GM, Ford, and Chysler. The rest appear to be content moving on into the future!
I think that this car, the new Mustang and the new Camaro are what Detroit _should_ be focusing on. There’s no way they can compete with the Honda’s and Toyota’s of the world (at least by the time they catch up _and_ people realize they’ve caught up, they’ll all be bankrupt). Detroit needs to go do what it does (did) well, and that’s big torquey V8s, right wheel drive, and whatever else defines muscle cars (poor handling?). If I didn’t live on 5 miles of rough dirt road, The Charger, Mustang, and Camaro would be at the top of my list for fun cars. Other than that Detroit is no where near my RADAR. Back in the ’60s and ’70s people bought muscle cars not only because they were cool but to use them as daily drivers. If Detroit can make a whole range of new muscle cars, people now may start buying them and using them as daily drivers, not just a niche market of a few thousand cars. This is one area that the imports can’t compete, so that’s where Detroit needs to go to survive. And I hope they do. We need another golden era of muscle cars.
The Challenger and Camaro are OK “halo” cars for their respective marques, but there’s precious little to back them up — their mainstream vehicles are generally boring (Unless a Malibu SS Coupe is on the way) and a sucker potential buyer that walks into a showroom to look at the Challenger is going to drive out with an Avenger?
I’m waiting for GM to offer a Cadillac with fins
Muscle cars were silly back in the 60’s. We knew they were silly but gas was cheap and there was open roads to open them up. But gas ain’t cheap no more and traffic is bumber to bumber with automatic cameras taking our pictures even if we do get a few meters of open space on the road to see “what they will do”.
Enough of PT Cruisers, HHRs, and now muscle cars that look like they were built by the advertising departments. It would be great to see some engineering from the 2.8 or should that be .7.5.3?
I just bought a 2008 Prius and I am having a ball with all the advanced engineering features.
A couple of questions for all those making the snide “niche” and “retro” comments. 1. How many of the new Mustangs has Ford sold since it’s introduction? And 2. How does that compare to any other car that Ford sells?
While admittedly, there are a few people that post on this site that would actually know the answers to those two questions, MOST of the people here slamming retro muscle cars don’t have a clue…
This comment is directed to Martin and Skor (which he never did in the back seat of a rice rocket).
The muscle cars that you refered to as “not lamented lame mobiles of the 70’s”, were actually the best of times for gear heads. The crap that kids think is cool today, i.e., a Honda Civic with a big chrome megaphone sticking out the rear and a stereo to drown out the muffler, is not where it’s at.
The glory days of geezers (that would be me), was a 400 HP V-8, which none of these young clowns know anything about (carb…..duh what’s that??). A car you could smoke the tires (on the rear)until the tread shredded off, is what I’m talking about.
Oh, and by the way, we still don’t need Viagra…..just let me hear the roar and smell rubber burning and I’ll be ready for any trailor park princess that wants to mount up.
Its great that Chrysler sold out of Challengers so quickly but the reality is that 6,000 cars for a model year is a drop in the bucket. Dodge sold over 73,000 cars in October and 713,000 year to date; I don’t see 6,000 Challengers taking care of much of Chrysler’s projected $1.6 billion loss for 2007. Chrysler needs some products that will sell in volume to turn it around.
@gdudds03
I agree with you that a lot of what boy-racers do today is just plain ignorant, i.e. fart-can mufflers, picnic table benches used as spoilers, etc. It’s no different than the idiotic stuff I saw as a boy — clapped out muscle cars with the rears jacked up 6 feet in the air, loud mufflers bolted to engines that used oil and gas in equal quantities. Stupid knows no age.
I’m also old enough to remember carburetors. I’m glad that they’re dead.
When you compare the best of the gear-heads from back in the day, to the best gear-heads today, today’s kids win by a long shot. If a kid is capable of tweaking a modern car, with its complex electronics and computer systems, you know he’s got an IQ in the triple digits. Back in the day, any 85 IQ Neanderthal, who knew how to operate a 5 pound hammer, could call himself a mechanic.
I don’t understand why I would want a car with uncontrollable tire shredding power. Is tire shredding part of some Neanderthal mating ritual? I’d much rather have a well engineered car that can transform engine power into forward motion.
BTW, most “rice-rockets” have back seats that fold flat like a bed.
Muscle cars know no demographic or age group, they have a universal appeal. You can go to any classic car show and see people of all ages owning and enjoying these types of cars new and old. I also notice that much of the interest in these new cars is coming from people my age and not just my father’s age. I am under 30 and I can assure you I would love to own this car as well as a new Camaro. I would rather own a car that looks like this than an ubiquitous modern appliance like the new Accord or the majority of generic, silver dull-colored stuff clogging our roadways and reviewed on this site. The Challenger will probably use less fuel than the majority of slow, ill-handling, expensive trucks, crossovers and SUVs this country is so enamored with too. You don’t have to like retro but this is exactly how this car and the Camaro should look. They along with the Mustang are finally sporting the styling that made them famous and they will never be mistaken for anything else on the road. Styling this car or the others any differently would be as silly as making a Mini Cooper that looks nothing like a Mini Cooper or a Jeep that looks nothing like the Willys that helped win the war or Fiat making the new 500 look like anything else or a GTO that isn’t recognizable as a GTO. Chrysler’s situation and product lineup hardly dim the appeal of this car. That’s like saying you wouldn’t have a Viper ACR because of the Caliber or that the ZO6 and ZR1 are awful because the same brand also sells the Aveo. That’s just stupid. If the Big Three applied this much passion in all their modern products and got back to making the cars that made them great and that they are known for like the Challenger they would be in a much better position today. By 2009 I will be in the market for a new car again. Cars aren’t cheap period. When I’m spending the money for one I expect something better than an A to B appliance. I want something I can covet in my garage, something that strikes up a conversation and that will make me smile on my daily commute. For me and people like me the new Challenger and Camaro may just be the ticket.
The Challenger, Mustang, Camaro, Hyundai coupe, 350Z, RX8, Sti, Evo, 1-series, GTi, Si, etc etc….lots of good choices and growing. Many boomers dont “seem” like unbias car enthusiasts. Seriously, a 350Z or BMW are great sports cars, too. What ever, I’m glad these cars are on the road.
I am not against the retro cars but what appalls me is if the domestics can design, engineer and build cars like the T-Bird, Prowler, Vette, Viper, Camaro etc why don’t they use that effort to produce something that will generate meaningful sales volume and profits? To run an auto company can’t be like brain surgery even if most of them do need it. Springsteen said it best “glory days well they’ll pass you by”. If they keep playing this tune they will be singing Nine Inch Nails-Hurt “I will let you down, I will make you hurt”.
Unintentionally, these sorts of cars reinforce the message that Detroit’s best days are far behind it, and that Michigan can’t produce anything decent without installing eight thirsty cylinders to put power to the ground. Not the best message to send to your customers when a gallon of fuel is approaching $3.50 per gallon.
Chrysler needs to make cars that can lead to some brand loyalty and future purchases. Even if the first few copies fly off the shelves, they can never sell enough of these to turn a profit.
A “halo car” is supposed to encourage the average car buyer who won’t actually buy the halo car to consider the other vehicles that carry the same badge. I don’t see anyone satisfying their baby boomer lust by opting for a Caliber once they’ve realized that they can’t afford the garage space or the fuel for something like this.
That Chrysler needed to jump into the way-back machine to even attempt to ignite the imagination of American car buyers makes it clear as day that they are fresh out of ideas. This car only highlights the fact that the other cars in the lineup fall short. Figure out how to make a useful, interesting, reliable car with a four-cylinder engine that works better than a Civic, and then they’ll be onto something.
If you have watched a Kruze auction lately you will see balding males in their 50’s or 60’s paying insane prices for restored musclecars.
At some point (maybe soon??) the sellers are going to be competing for the attention of fewer and fewer buyers. The new generation of performance car buyers do not relate to rear wheel drive, 400 HP, gas guzzlers.
There will always be buyers for the rare optioned musclecars but the average ones cannot hold their prices in a declining market.
The new Challenger will appeal to the geezer market but I can’t see it attracting much interest from the tuner crowd.
# Virtual Insanity :
December 6th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
I’m well under 40, and I dig the new ‘Maro. Its slowly starting to grow on me.”
37?
I kid, I kid. The challenger is a great looking car, but the price is not. 40 grand? I’d get a Beemer in an -instant- before that car. It’s cool and all, but really just a retro niche.
These are all about nostalgia.
We tend to forget that the classic Camaro and Mustang during their lifetimes spent more time as chick cars than as enthusiast cars.
Yeah, that’s right. Babes dug the cool lines even if only a 6-cyl rattled under the head. Ever the evolution of the mainstream racey car.
Pedantic aside: Technically, Mustand & Camaro are “Pony Cars,” not “Muscle Cars,” a la Nova SS or Super Bee or Challenger…
In a sea of Honda Civic and Dodge Neon “tuners” (which by the way aren’t muscle cars) the Challenger is a breath of fresh air. Mustang’s commanded a premium right before they came out as will the reappearance of the Camaro. These cars sell (not just to the geezer crowd) because they don’t look similar to every other car on the road. It’s nice to see a car on the road that has nice flowing lines instead of the generic enema shaped bulges that everyone else is building. If it’s the geezer crowd that makes it popular, I say “Go Geezers!”
Pch101:
“Chrysler needs to make cars that can lead to some brand loyalty and future purchases. Even if the first few copies fly off the shelves, they can never sell enough of these to turn a profit.”
If you are saying that the company as a whole can’t turn a profit with these sales, you are right. If you think that the car itself won’t make a profit, that is incorrect. The car was planned to be profitiable no how many were made by 1.) building off an existing platform and 2.) manufacturing in a flexible factory so that they could make as many or little as the market demands.
Originally they were not going to make a ‘plain-jane’ pedestrian model powered by a V6. They were were going to restrict it to V8 models and purposefully build less than the Mustang or Camaro, which would depend on mass market V6 models. Then the Magnum was cancelled making more production capacity available.
All the 2008 are top of the line SRT8’s. So the production is limited and the price is well, somewhat unlimited. Production will immediately begin on hte 2009’s and these will have the smaller Hemi’s and the V6’s. Availability will go up, and prices will come down into the 30’s and 20’s.
As for all the arguments about what or what not a ‘halo’ car will do for an automaker: I am sure that a little internet research will show that the same arguments were made for and against the Viper. That too was made at a time when Chrysler was not doing well financially. They said it was just the Cobra resrrected, that ChryCo was out of ideas. I’m sure a lot of pundits were saying then that this was not what Chrysler needed at that time, but it was the beginning of a turnaround. Who knows? Maybe history will repeat itself.
It is interesting that all of the companies that appear to be into this whole Retro thing are the companies that are having the most problems in todays current marketplace, GM, Ford, and Chysler. The rest appear to be content moving on into the future!
Why not capitalize on the one area they have a huge advantage over the imports. History. Like or hate the new ‘Stang it has sold quite a few vehicles (too lazy to look up stats right now). Heck, I’m well under 40 and would pick up a V8 Mustang in a heartbeat if I didn’t also need 4 doors.
Profits from these cars can easily be funneled into other areas to improve their overall line up. Granted Detroit doesn’t have a good track record of doing that…
The problem with these types of cars is that everybody wants one but the majority of the folks that do want one can also come up with dozens of vaild reason not to buy one.
“I would love to get one but I live in the snowy northeast.”
” I would love to get one but I need a 4 door car”
“I would love to buy one of these but the wife is not interested in reliving our twenties.”
“I would love to get one of these babies but the insurance is just too expensive.”
“I would love to get one but I am worried about the current price of gas.”
And the list goes on and on.
The Camaro and Challanger are truly one trick ponies from a sales point of view. There aint but one way to market these things because the target demographic is so small.
So when you say that the domestics need to makes cars like these because they can’t compete against the Honda Accord, I say stop wasting time and resources on these silly “projects” and get down to business making REAL cars.
Remember when the “new” thunderbird came out? The waiting lists, the 75k price tags, the arrogance of ford?
Yeah- last year I saw one on the dealer lot with 8000 off MSRP plastered on the windscreen.
The best part of these cars comes from the dealerships arrogance, all of a sudden they have the upper hand, they can sell over sticker, and for awhile they at least feel like a profitable company.
Enjoy it while it lasts dodge.
skor:
BTW, most “rice-rockets” have back seats that fold flat like a bed.
So did my Dad’s Rambler – not much of a car, but that was certainly one advantage.
Everybody keeps saying this is a copy of the 70’s Challenger, but I don’t see any gray primer on the rear qtr panels. And where is the dream catcher? The pit bull living in the back seat? Nah, this thing is not the same as I remember it.
The problem isn’t whether the Challenger will appeal only to “geezers,” or whether muscle cars were dumb back in the 1960s.
The problem is that Chrysler – and the rest of the Big Three – seem to view the excitement generated by vehicles like this as a substitute for building modern, reliable family sedans and crossovers that most people will actually buy.
Lots of people – not just geezers – will salivate over the Challenger. I like it, too, and I’m not a geezer (at least, I hope that I’m not).
But most of those people who look longingly at the Challenger will then drive to the Toyota store and sign the contract for a Camry or RAV-4.
The Challenger is no substitute for a Sebring/Avenger that is fully competitive with the Accord, or a Dodge subcompact that can stand toe-to-toe with the Civic.
As for nostalgia – the original Challenger (and 1970 Barracuda) were considered flops at the time. They entered a declining market for pony cars; they never met their original sales projections; and their quality was absymal even by the standards of the early 1970s.
The Camaro Z-28 was a better all-around performer, while the Mustang was a better “secretary’s special” (don’t laugh – the Mustang’s popularity with women is why it has survived while the others died) or “second car” for the family that wanted something inexpensive and stylish.
The Hemi drank gasoline like it was going out of style and was hard to keep in tune. The interiors featured acres of cheap, hard plastic with ergonomics that were lousy even for the time.
Like it or not, it was the Dodge Dart and Plymouth Valiant/Duster, along with Dodge trucks and vans, that kept Chrysler in business during the early 1970s.
As Geeber and Whatdoiknow stated above, having a car people talk about or look at or smile at or reflect nostalgically about is not enough. If people won’t lay down cash on it, what good is it?
Yes, I suppose it might “get people into the showroom,” but then what? Short of having salesmen rob the customers at gunpoint I don’t see what financial gain could come from merely “getting people into the showroom.” Would our Challenger-drooling muscle car fan be inclined to buy a Sebring? Or (God help us) a Caliber? Why? Because it was in the same showroom as the Challenger they wanted to see? Or because they were in a hurry to buy a car and, heck, they’re already in the showroom anyway (the “impulse buy” theory of sales, I guess.) But a $25,000 – $40,000 car is not a tin of Altoids or a gossip magazine. It isn’t something most people will buy on impulse.
Seeing as how Chrysler has such a dismal lineup of “regular” cars, how does getting an aging boomer or even a twentysomething muscle car buff into the showroom translate to more sales?
And what does it say about the company’s confidence in itself that the only “new” ideas it has are to mine the old ideas of generations past?
Chrysler has a habit of creating non-mass-appeal vehicles. Magnum. Viper. Crossfire. Prowler.
I think my Dad epitomizes the metro Detroit attitude when he says that muscle cars must have V-8s. This is simply not true any more. I feel that this car will be out of the price range of most of those who want it.
Detroit needs to figure out how Toyota can go without updating the Corolla for five years and still sell a metric buttload of them. (I’m not sure Toyota actually knows itself.) Flavor of the moment cars like the Challenger are not the key to profitablity; selling a ton of something where the engineering costs have been paid off years ago is.
Now, the domestics actually have something like that-their full size pickups. They are updated rarely and sell in huge numbers despite that. However, that’s a declining market segment overall.