Automakers are justifiably proud of the fast, safe, clean and comfortable products they’ve unleashed upon the automotive market. But today’s carmakers have entered into a Faustian bargain with the electronic systems that make these four-wheeled wonders possible, and it’s busy biting them and their customers in their collective keister. Never mind the inherent safety hazards of protecting drivers from their own stupidity. The heavy reliance on technology has fundamentally altered the ownership experience, particularly when these techno-wondercars are repaired and resold.
This problem is particularly acute for high-end, mostly European luxury makes. In the past, upmarket brands justified their price premiums by offering superior performance, handling, comfort and refinement. As less-expensive brands have narrowed the gap, luxury makers have turned to electronic wizardry to create a distinctive distinction. But stuffing more stuff into the cars invites Murphy and his Law to ride shotgun.
Your humble author spent four years battling these issues as a BMW dealership technician and regularly saw Herr Murphy working his mojo. My favorite horror story of that time: a BMW E46 3-Series that was rendered impotent (warning lights aplenty, transmission stuck in second gear) by… wait for it… the radio.
The E46 radio is connected to the engine, transmission and ABS computers (and many others) by a network called the K-bus. When the radio died, it shorted out the K-bus, freaking-out the other computers. Every system that could turn on a warning light did so and the transmission computer went into ‘limp in’ mode: second gear only when in ‘Drive.’
While these sorts of gremlins may be more common in the luxury brands (Mercedes owners unite!), the same systems and problems are now appearing in more mainstream machines. Nissan owners who've put their Intelligent Key fob in the same pocket as their cell phone have discovered that the phone signal scrambles the key programming, rendering it impotent. Honda owners with a persistent ‘check engine’ light may have a major emissions system failure, or they may have slight corrosion on an electrical terminal in the fuse box. No make or model with electronic systems is immune.
Electronic failures differ from mechanical mishaps in important ways. Most mechanical items fail gradually and provide warning signs (noises, visible wear, etc.) indicating that something is amiss. Electronics are usually an either/or situation; they either work or they don’t. They also rarely warn their dependents before they fail. Mechanical systems can often be tweaked or bypassed (e.g. looping heater hoses to bypass a leaking heater core). Electronic systems usually don’t respond to duct tape and WD-40.
This electronic complexity can make for an expensive and time-consuming ownership experience. Increasingly, these systems can only be serviced by dealerships, whose technicians need a lot of (expensive) time and (expensive) training to diagnose the problems. Sometimes, the problems are so subtle that the only recourse is to install part A and see if the problem goes away.
When the owner comes back in a week with the same problem, install part B and repeat until the problem, or the owner, goes away. And make no mistake: these parts are getting mighty expensive. The aforementioned BMW radio lists for $590, and no $79 Pep Boys radio has a K-bus connection. Similarly, the days of cutting a spare key at the hardware store for $5 are long gone.
When the car is under warranty, the customer doesn’t pay the parts and labor costs, and service loaner cars might make frequent dealership visits tolerable. But imagine (or testify) what happens when the warranty ends. Electronic systems are not immune from age-related failures; the owner must bear the full brunt of these costs.
This leaves an owner with a set of tough decisions. Does he fix the problem or try to ignore it? Can he ignore it? If the transmission won’t shift out of second gear, the car isn’t very useful. Are the parts available, new or used? If only used parts are available, how long will they last? Should he just get rid of the car for something newer and/or more reliable?
That last question indicates the area where electronic overkill hurts the car owner the most. Trouble-prone cars have always had low resale values/a shortage of willing buyers. When the troubles are difficult to locate, devilish to rectify and expensive to boot, it only amplifies the situation.
Unfortunately, this is difficult to see in the available data because used car prices are affected by multiple factors. The cachet of MINI and VW, for example, keeps their resale prices high– despite their relatively poor e-reliability records.
Nevertheless, as heavily electronic cars age, the cost of repairs will overwhelm the market values of those cars. This may be the final ironic twist of modern automotive electronics: rendering eight-year-old cars about as valuable as eight-year-old computers.
Well, this is the part of the trilogy that I was waiting for. And you’ve hit the nail on the head with this one.
When I read on bulletin boards about car owners who intend to own their cars for 15 years, I just shake my head and wonder if they’ve ever looked under the hood or elsewhere to see what makes a 2008 car different from one built in 1988 or 1978. Those electronic gizmos are going to die long before that ever happens, and take the car down with them because the parts are too costly and the DIY mechanic won’t be able to replace them.
Cars today are far more reliable than they ever have been, but they are less durable. They will give more trouble-free service, but their total service lives will be shorter.
The age of passing your 20-year old beater onto your kid so he can travel cheaply and learn how to keep it running is dead. The analogy of the 8-year old computer is very much on point. The beater won’t be worth fixing, a computer swap will cost more than the car is worth.
Mercury Sable’s had a ABS light come on because of corrosion on the ABS computer connector. I wonder how many people paid for new computers. The same car would not start, forcing a tow and new 350 dollar starter. The real problem was the cheap connector on the starter solenoid that came loose. How many starters were installed for that one?
I have an electronics background and can troubleshoot these problems pretty well. Most people I know are not so lucky, the dealers and mechanics are about worthless when it comes to electrical stuff. Swap, replace and bill the customer is SOP.
As long as it all works properly there is nothing better than an electronicly managed car. When even a small problem occurs the results are far worse than anything you could imagine in a traditional car. And the ridiculous price of the service parts reflects not the cost of producing the part, but the need. They’ve got you by the balls for that gizmo and they are the only true source for it new. Who wants to take a chance on a ebay computer with NO warranty implied.
Whether it was a conscious decision or not, the development of automotive electronics has rendered all but the most skilled backyard mechanics to lawnmower duty. I am sure there is plenty of software you can install on a laptop and plug your car into an empty USB port but I cannot imagine how much time it would take to learn all of the correct settings and diagnostic procedures to keep your own vehicle running smoothly!
I guess from a part standpoint, bus connections, eproms and sensors make for great plug n’ play fixes in cars. I wonder what you pay for in a more expensive part is offset by the amount of time a dealer tech has to take to fix the problem.
CJ
But 8-year old computers are valued in terms of contemporary processing demands. A computer delivered 8 years ago had Internet Exploder 5, no Instant Messenger, no Skype, processed low-res video files, etc. But we apply software upgrades… to IE 7, add IM, try to run hi-res video, the latest Doom game, etc, etc. For contemporary processing, yes, the 8-year old computer is inadequate.
But the computer in an 8-year old car will only ever be asked to do the things it was initially asked to do. No Internet Exploder upgrades to contend with, no IM.
I think that on-board computers are a great idea, and that system integration is a great way to go. But the automakers have taken a bizarre path, not by integrating directly, but by just adding another mini-computer where ever the need arises. A typical new car has upwards of 12+ individual computers I’ve read, and each one has a specific task. How stupid is that? If there was one central brain, that controlled everything, from Engine Management, to electronic gizmos, to disgnostics that would be a much better system.
The flip side is when that main brain goes foul, and even bigger repair bill will follow.
Hmm, maybe it’s not such a good idea. Dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t.
Great horror story, Eric! If one is going to reflect on the ugly side of automotive electronics, the European luxury brands are rich in material. My favorite comment in this vein comes from Doug Flint: “…after finally getting a good look at some [VW] factory information I have concluded that they don’t provide diagrams because no one actually knows where the electricity goes once it leaves the battery.” (from his “The Mechanic’s Tale” column at thecarconnection.com).
I think the late 90’s and early 00’s may be remembered as a “golden age” for automotive electronics. In vehicles from this era you see electronics thoroughly integrated into engine & emissions controls, enhancing performance and reliability. Widespread support for the OBD-II protocol enables troubleshooting using inexpensive scan tools. A factory radio can still be easily replaced. In contemporary vehicles, we’ve entered an era of increasing complexity and diminishing returns.
I agree! The way they engineer the electronics on cars to integrate instead of isolate causes the crazy glitches like the “Radio killed the BMW – star” example above.
I had an 1989 Mercedes. It would just die once in a while. Wait 20 minutes. It would start right up. Drove me nuts for a year. It would die the on freeway costing me a tow. It would die all the time. The dealer couldn’t figure it out. By the time they got to look it at, it was fine.
I finally figured it out, thanks to a clue I found on an online message board. It was a faulty fuel pump relay switch.
The “switch” is actually a little computer with a small circuit board. The board had developed a hairline fracture. When driving, the heat and vibration would sometimes jiggle the board just enough to open the crack. That would kill the fuel pump, and then kill the car. The car would cool down, the board would shrink, and the problem would disappear for a while.
It pissed me off to no end that my premium luxury car could be killed by something so simple, and yet no one could figure it out. I took my “theory” to my mechanic. He pulled the board we looked at it under a microscope. Sure enough, there was the crack. Swapped out the part and the problem went away.
So one has to wonder… how many of these little circuit boards, connections, and other points of failure are there in a modern car? All it takes is one to fail, and the car is worthless.
There is no going back. The solution is more electronics. What is needed are babysitters, that is systems that monitor systems. They have to isolate each component. And then assign one or more baby-sitters to watch it.
They could then take it to the next level like they do on aircraft. They then have another system that babysits the baby sitters. The Space Shuttle does that. It has 3-5 babysitters watching the same component. They vote on a collective answer.
I can remember in the 1980s when the High-German automakers and the brand snobs used to rag all over Japanese cars because of all those “silly” electronic options. I remember a BMW commercial where a couple was laughing at a Japanese car and the salesman because the car had verbal warnings.
Twenty five years later and those Germans wish they had been paying attention in class back then.
While I has seen some minor annoying electronic glitches in Japanese cars I had yet to see anything like the absolute electronic disasters I have seen in new MB and BMW products. WTF is with this “limp home” crap, window switches that stop working on $60,000 cars, Radio that reset themselves for no reason and lose all setting. indecipherable warning lights, Interior lights that quit working, Engine control modules that need to be replaced 3 or 4 times. Man the list goes on and on. This is like GM in the early 1980s!
In 5 years the few remaining german cars from this period will clearly be seen for the trash that they actually are. No prestige will be able to overcome the sheer crappines and unfixable problems that these cars have. This WILL do enormous damage to these brand if the contempory lexuses and Acuras are still going strong.
Cars need to be more like computers (PCs specifically). Hear me out – I’m not crazy.
The PC architecture is designed around commodity components. The hard drive that runs your Mac, also can run your Dell and HP. Expansion cards, power supplies and drives, are (for the most part) interchangeable.
Automobiles need this kind of standardization in major components. Why on earth does every car manufacturer re-invent the wheel with each new model of car? How many different radios does the auto world need? Really, how different are engine management computers? Most engines have common parts – knock sensors, fuel-air sensors, emissions sensors, crank position sensors….etc. Why haven’t these computers become standardized hardware with software to handle the minute differences in engine designs?
The computer industry figured out a long time ago that commonality of parts leads to much lower overall production and maintenance costs. Auto manufacturers need to learn the same lesson.
-ted
whatdoiknow1..I hear you about the German electrics thing – my 07 G35X has been a wonderful car, but I got grief from my friend who bought an 07 BMW 550i. He says I should have bought German….
Until one rainy day, he came out and all his windows were down. It seems that BMW has added a “rain detection” feature to it’s power window controller (kidding)…except every time it rains, his windows go DOWN not up.
I wonder how much water the interior of his new car can take before it is trashed….
-ted
One irony of these electronic systems is that IF the technician actually understands them and IF there is sufficient and accessible technical material and IF the diagnostic systems are properly designed (that’s a lot of ‘Ifs’..:-D..) then diagnosing and repairing them is NOT that hard.
In the radio/K-bus example I gave, I hooked up the BMW diagnostic computer and it immediately told me that the K-bus was not functioning.
I checked the wiring diagrams/component locations and found that there was a “star” connection under the dash where all K-bus wires converged. I then yanked wires off the connector until the K-bus started working again.
Once I knew which wire was responsible, I traced it to the radio. Wire continuity checked out OK, so the process of elimination just left the radio as the culprit. Luckily, removing/installing an E46 radio takes 5 minutes.
All-in-all, it probably took 45 minutes to fix the problem, but that was because all of those “IFs” lined up properly.
Parts cost is a separate issue. There’s no field repairing/rebuilding of electronic modules and automakers are loath to standardize things and/or allow their proprietary information on them into the aftermarket. That will keep the costs high for the foreseeable future.
It is really funny, as I am searching for a new car, I am always confronted by the fact that all the new ‘toys’ on current cars can cause majot problems if they malfunction. I just looked at a car with an optional nav system that tied in the heating and radio controls to it. The car….a honda civic. The only thing I could think was that I can live with a broken nav system, but I like heat in the winter and a/c in the summer. Now, this isn’t as bad as some cars, but the issue here is that a civic owner is not likely to be able to shell out the kind of money it will take to replace said unit when it gets old. This is going to lead to issues in used car market 5-10 years from now. Additionally, mainstream makers don’t offer loaners like luxury makers do.
I believe that the best idea is to leave critical systems on a separate chip board and wiring network from ancillary electronics. That way, the broken radio,nav, etc can be dealt with whenever and won’t require a tow.
All this make me appreciate the simplicity of an air-cooled vw. Keep in mind, this is coming from a 24 y/o who worked his way through college as a computer tech.
“Honda owners with a persistent ‘check engine’ light may have a major emissions system failure, or they may have slight corrosion on an electrical terminal in the fuse box”
This is my Mercury Mystique. The check engine light has been on for the past 18 months. The Ford dealership mechanic predicted dire consequences for future emissions tests and a likely expensive repair. When the emissions test came due two months ago, I took the car into the local Canadian Tire for the test and to get another opinion. The person I spoke with told me to do the emissions test first as the light could be on for any reason. If the car failed the test, then do a diagnostic evaluation. Short answer, the car passed the test easily and the light remains on.
A couple of Japanese carmakers – Toyota & Nissan – are working in conjunction to standardize their onboard computer systems. This might make diagnosis/repair/replacement easier but isn’t expected to be completed and implemented until well into the next decade.
This might also result in tens of millions of cars having to be recalled at once :(
Of course this could all be obviated by an approach based on standard systems, but that wouldn’t let them rake you over the coals for repairs.
Eric, good editorial! Especially with high line German cars there are numerous “challenging stories” out there regarding a myriad of issues.
Since all vehicles have become an electronic platform the thoughts of long term ownership have diluted, and most younger people are well aware of the electronic shortcomings, and the effects of these shorcomings.
They have little interest in owning a vehicle past the warranty, since they have little interest in enduring a repair process involving step 1, then to step 2, and possibly step 3. The business repairing the vehicle is not interested in this process either, since its not productive.
Ideally the fate of these high content electronic platforms is to spend 36 months on a lease, then be resold as a CPO vehicle with an extended warranty. This scenario plays out quite well for the manufacturers, and franchised dealers, not as well for the independents, or the prospective purchaser on an older vehicle.
The high line, more electronically vehicles at a certain point go through an extreme depreciation, and strangely enough by then the technology has been out for long enough that they are repairable by independent shops.
Imagine the vehicle with keyless go, night vision, smart cruise control, rear cameras, active suspension, SMC transmission, paddle shifts, temperature control seats, memory seats, hard drive with navigation, mp3, rear seat entertainement, power rear seat, rear window sunshade, power rear door shades, 2 turbo chargers, 8 piston calipers with 2 sets of brakes pads per caliper, might as well thrown in ceramic discs.
What is the annual budget to maintain such a car to factory specs?
@AGR – Your thoughts on where the industry is headed mirror mine.
I think in 10-15 years, any car less than 10 years old will spend its entire life under some sort of warranty.
Cars out of warranty will be considered “disposable” and people will buy them like they do ‘beaters’ today. They’ll be driven until the first major electronic failure, then dumped on the next sucker owner or at the junkyard.
Robert_h, you stole my thunder about Doug Flint. I read all his columns. Another favorite quote from him, this for problem with a Volkswagen Passat;
“The car limped back in last week with every warning light on the dash lit up like a Christmas tree. The customers had gone on vacation. When they returned, the back-seat floor of the VW had several inches of water in it, indicating some kind of body seal leak, as we had had heavy rains the week they were gone. Unfortunately, VW choose to locate the transmission control computer and the body modules under the carpet, under the seats, in wells perfect for collecting water.
The trans control computer was completely submerged and, since it is on a communication bus with every other computer, caused the car to have a nervous breakdown.”
—
The leak was caused by the sun roof seal and the cost of a new 6X4 circuit board from VW: $1206.
Electronics can be reliable and surprisingly sturdy. Case in point, the digital gauge clsuter in my LeBaron convertible went dark on me. The car was almost at the 200,000 mile mark so it wasn’t totaly unexpected. I thought I would convert it to an electro/mechanical dash but after researching on the internet I found that the wiring was different and while it could be done, I did not have the expertise or the time. Not having the cash to blow $400 at the dealer (for a “remanufactured” one no less), I took a chance on pulling one from a local salvage yard. It was the only one available. The donor car had been in a wreck and the car had been sitting in the yard with the TOP DOWN for who knows how many years. Thinking I was just wasting my time pulling this part that had been rained on and baked in the FL sun I realized I didn’t have any other options, so what the heck. I paid $50 and took it home.
The thing lit right up the first time! And the readouts were crisper and brighter than the old original unit. Best part; the mileage is kept in the body computer so the car still had the correct odometer reading, something that would not have happened had I been able to switch to a traditional gauge cluster.
Eric, the European Union is applying pressure for manufacturers to make their diagnostic available to the after market, which would greatly facilitate the repair of these vehicles.
The mind set is already in place the majority of people will not struggle with repairing modules in vehicles.
I really can understand the frustration when it comes to the uber-generic CEL warning light and the cryptic codes associated w/it. I had a 98 Ranger that showed a failed DPFE sensor; upon further inspection, I found that Ford has redesigned that sensor 11 times since 1996! Of course, they pass on the outdated design to the aftermarket industry..so you have to a FoMoCo shop to get the latest/greatest while PepBoys knowingly sells the crappola version(s). What a joke…
another ugly…….with long design lead times, car consumer electronics are woefully obsolete even in a redesigned car.
40gb hard drive in a G35/7 or myGIG? wow….except the standard now in computers is 300+ gb.
GPS wow….except they’re overpriced and superseded by handhelds.
Make electronics easier to swap…..just as swapping a hard drive on your computer.
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the electronics queens: Hybrid cars
The related control systems for these cars run into the thousands when it comes to replacement costs.
No thanks. Just make new cars lighter and more aerodynamic.
The leak was caused by the sun roof seal and the cost of a new 6X4 circuit board from VW: $1206.
Ah, the old leaking sunroof problem. From my colleagues at work who’ve suffered from VW maladies, it’s my understanding that it’s not the seals per se that fail. Rather, it’s the one-way valves VW installs at the end of the drain tubes that run down the inside of the door hinge pillars. It seems said valves can clog with leaves, grit, etc, and the water has nowhere to go but inside the car. The simple fix is to snip off the valves before the trouble starts.
Apparently, these same valves are used in drain holes in the battery tray just in front of the firewall. Same deal, when they get plugged, the battery takes a bath!
VW drain nipples…
The have closed-off ends to prevent critters from getting in. Too bad they also block the sunroof drainage when clogged. I cut mine right off!
They are also prone to the drain under the battery becoming clogged, with similar jacuzzi-under-my-battery results. The spillover usually comes into the firewall and soaks the electronic brain for the whole cabin. I’ve got a partial failure in some of my wiring, and that’s with just the water from my wet shoes!
Now I get funny looks when I stomp the floor to re-activate the interior lights.
The best solution for the uber-generic CEL warning light is dark electrician’s tape taped on top of it.
Worked amazingly well for me for 2 years until I sold my Mercury Mystaque.
Cars need to be more like computers (PCs specifically).
This is the LAST thing that the automotive makers want. They do not want cars to become commodity products with interchangeable parts. They want to be unique and different from their competitors.
Automakers have high costs and want to earn high margins on their sales. They want to offer unique technologies that create distinctiveness and dependency, as much as possible. So standardization is not only not in their futures, but I would expect them to go out of their way to avoid it.
Pch…More than that, if everything is standardized like that then eventually there will only be one engine of each type (4-banger, V-6,…) that all manufacturers use. Eventually the only distinguishing factor among cars and trucks will be styling. How boring is that?
The intermittent wipers, turn signals and rear defroster are all controlled by the same relay in our 1996 M-B C220 – and apparently the climate control and door locks are controlled by the same vacuum pump. It seems odd to group those things together. The relay is definitely on the fritz in our car, and thankfully there are some knowledgeable people out there online who pointed me to the problem – it’s nearly as simple as changing a fuse.
But there are people on that same board are bitching over the fact that the new 2008 C-Class isn’t offered with Keyless Go in the US. Mind you, these are the same people who want to enable DVD playback while the car is in motion. Anyway, in my eyes, it’s unnecessary, and one more thing to potentially break. I think M-B is definitely not offering some features on their US market cars for just that reason – they know they have to work on their quality control – but I wouldn’t be surprised if it is rolled out in the future.
whatdoiknow1 :
Twenty five years later and those Germans wish they had been paying attention in class back then.
My old 300ZX had all the fancy electronic stuff. Except the auto climate control had an override button and a small knob tucked up next to the trim. The button would bypass the auto controls and turn on the defrost with the adjust the temp in case of a failure in the system.
My audi has no such thing, which will be fantastic when the climate control decides it’s done…
Great Series!
I drive a ’93 Saab 9000 Aero. The climate control computer in my car went out this summer. It tried to cool the cabin no matter the setting or the actual temperature. Not a problem in the summer, but I decided I needed to do something about it sometime after the first frost. You see, the computer could be tricked into blowing hot air if the temp was set to “High”. Having nothing between hot and cold was getting frustrating. I checked the temp sensor ($10.00 used) and then went on to assume it was the brain. I checked my favorite online retailer of OEM Saab parts. A new Automatic Climate Control (ACC) unit was listed at $895.00. Alright, ebay, here I come. Check part #s, and click buy-it-now. Three days later I had TWO ACC units on my porch, and I was out $45.00 total for both. One worked but had burnt-out lights, the other worked perfectly. Problem solved. Now, I can’t imagine what would have happened if a failing ACC unit made my car quit running altogether! I guess I will take the chance on used parts. If it saves me $850, I’ll give it a try.
Now, if you make engine management systems proprietary, fine. If I can’t upgrade my cars speakers without setting off the CEL, then get over yourselves and give me just a little bit of control. Maybe that’s why I prefer manual transmissions. My foot is actually connected mechanically to the clutch plate! (at least for now, right?)
I still think that BMW e30s had all the stuff I wanted, and nothing I didn’t. I don’t think a car company has made a better HVAC control than what BMW had in their e30s (and other contemporary models): http://secretaryforums.com/file_gallery/clavinzero/dash.jpg
~P
yankinwaoz :
December 14th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
I agree! The way they engineer the electronics on cars to integrate instead of isolate causes the crazy glitches like the “Radio killed the BMW – star” example above.
I had an 1989 Mercedes. It would just die once in a while. Wait 20 minutes. It would start right up. Drove me nuts for a year. It would die the on freeway costing me a tow. It would die all the time. The dealer couldn’t figure it out. By the time they got to look it at, it was fine.
I finally figured it out, thanks to a clue I found on an online message board. It was a faulty fuel pump relay switch.
The “switch” is actually a little computer with a small circuit board. The board had developed a hairline fracture. When driving, the heat and vibration would sometimes jiggle the board just enough to open the crack. That would kill the fuel pump, and then kill the car. The car would cool down, the board would shrink, and the problem would disappear for a while.
Off topic, but that is a classic problem with Honda’s from the 90’s as well. In my limited exposure to car repair, I have heard literally over 100 people describe your situation. It seems to have been a problem for pratically anyone who owned a Honda of this vintage, though I believe that Honda eventually corrected this problem. Usually, it starts in the summer when the interior of the car, where the relay is located, heats up and the part expands. Luckily the fuel pump relay is relatively inexpensive and easy to replace on these cars, but whenever I hear a problem described such as yours, and especially if it’s a Honda, the first thing I look to replace is the fuel pump relay.
I own a 2001 BMW 540i that I bought used. It has simpler electronics than the E60 5-series but all of the problems I’ve had with it were in the electronics. I’ve also had some electronic problems appear and then cure themselves. I love the car but I don’t trust it.
I use an indie shop staffed by the dealer’s former top technicians. One of them quit the dealership because the complex and buggy electronics in the new generation BMWs were a complete misery to work on. Example: When he applied a factory software upgrade to a 7-series it killed all of the elctronics in the car –no remote key, no lights, no ignition, no nuthin’. Four days later and after countless hours on the phone with BMW engineers they were no further ahead. On the fifth day everything worked. Nobody had a clue why. He told me that many days he didn’t touch his tools until mid-afternoon. The rest of the time he spent trying to figure out why something electronic wasn’t working. He figures there are enough older cars on the roads to keep him and his boss happily employed for years to come.
When the new generation cars come off warranty the owners are going to have a terrible time finding independent mechanics to maintain them. Without factory training the cars are black boxes.
This is a major justification to buying Japanese, specifically Toyota and Honda. When they break, they cost as much to repair as any other brand (but no more)-but they hardly ever break. If there’s one sterotype that’s accurate, it’s that the Japanese know how to make good electronics. Germans, not so much.
That fuel pump problem doesn’t sound like it would be difficult to diagnose from the side of the road. Engine dies or won’t run? First, make sure it’s getting fuel. Turn key to ignition and, if I can’t hear the fuel pump run, I’d assume the problem is something to do with the fuel pump.
I guess a lot of people don’t allow the fuel pump to prime when they start their cars? I listen to it for a second or two before every time I start the car.
I’m only 29 so I don’t know what the good old days were like, but I’ve had no problem doing my own maintenance and repairs on my cars despite the electronics involved, and I’ve been fortunate to not have any electronic mystery glitches. However, I do have a friend whose Audi TT had major electronic problems and spent 4 months at the dealer being diagnosed and torn apart, all due to one little connector in the door shorting out. To me, that indicates poor engineering. I’ll just stick to Japanese and domestic cars.
I’ve never owned a Volkswagen Audi Group vehicle without a drivers side window issue. The Jetta was particularly prone to having it’s window fly completely off the track. My TT’s window would randomly go spastic. But what are you going to do? I love German cars.
Maybe an historian will discover why the Germans responded to Japanese competition by (1) uglying up their cars and (2) playing to the strongest suit in their new competitors’ hand. Electrics were a long standing weakness in European cars and a strength in Japanese ones. As a business strategy it looks dumb.
M-B paid for it. Its reputation for being the gold standard of automotive engineering was demolished, partly because of dodgy electronics. The unworkable and unfixable electronics in the S class caused a bust-up between M-B and Bosch like the Ford-Firestone one.
VW/Audi had had garbage electrics for as long as anybody could remember so they couldn’t really suffer more damage to their reputations in that area.
BMW achieved record sales which it probably takes as validation of its strategy. One can only wonder what it would have achieved without Dame Edna styling and electronic overkill.
I agree with Pch101, the auto makers will not voluntarily standardize electronics systems. To do so will turn auto hardware into a commodity. Producers of commodities can only compete on price. What would distinguish one car from another besides sheet metal? Software?
Auto companies are painfully aware of the problems caused by unrepairable electronics faults. One of my friends runs the repair department for a local Chrysler dealer. When they run into one of these electronic problems, the factory reps get an earful.
In the near future cars will have a single data bus connecting a main processor to various sensors, actuators, etc. Diagnosis and repair will be greatly simplified for anyone with access to documentation, software and diagnostic tools. Unfortunately, everything connected to these systems will be proprietary. Need a (new fill in the blank) sensor for your (fill in the blank) car, you’ll only be able to get it OEM, and it’ll cost a pretty penny, and probably not be available at all after 10 or 15 years.
Why do automakers use a dozen ECUs in each car when a competent Dell or HP computer is available for a few hundred dollars?
Buy a new laptop, download car specific software, plug in the car’s harness, and you’re on your way.
I think I answered my own question.
These comments remind me of the transmission shop owner’s assertion that auto makers really don’t want to make things long-lasting and reliable because they make high profits selling replacement parts.
Somewhere I read that the Japanese tend to keep cars only a few years because getting an old car to meet emission and other regulations is very expensive. So why all those stories about Toyondas going 200,000 miles without a problem? Maybe their durability was engineered in for the American market.
zerofoo :
December 14th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
It seems that BMW has added a “rain detection” feature to it’s power window controller (kidding)…
My 4Runner’s tailgate would open by itself. It turned out to be, I swear, a faulty tailgate computer. This particular computer only controls the tailgate latch, rear window and wiper.
“These comments remind me of the transmission shop owner’s assertion that auto makers really don’t want to make things long-lasting and reliable because they make high profits selling replacement parts.”
I agree with that stament. I needed some burned out lightbulbs in the dashboard repalced, and the local GM stealership did nothing but lie and pressure me into buying an $800+ module plus labour to replace a $2 lightbulb. My independent mechanic sent me to RadioShack and told me which bulbs to buy. One hour ;ater some quick soldering and $75 labour plus $5 for light bulbs I was on my way.
When the DRL modual went, The local scrap yards either did not stock them, or charged an outragious price for a used unit. In the end I just left as nothing was netorked, and the manual switches still worked.
I hate to see what everything would have cost if these items were networked together and left me paralized.
I remember one time when my dad’s 1999 BMW 540i was in for a ‘routine computer upgrade’ which, of course, crashed the computer. With a crashed computer, the car wouldn’t start, and they couldn’t fix it at the dealer. We ended up stuck with a 3-series station wagon for about 2 weeks while they sent the 540’s computer back to Germany to have it reprogrammed!!
Then there was the time the computer went on my mom’s 1986 Saab 9000 turbo. We lost just about every function of the car from the temperature gauge to fuel economy readings to whether the doors are open or not. Thankfully, though, the car still ran well enough to get it to the shop to have the computer replaced. That was years ago, and when things were more ‘simple…
What goes around, comes around. The Lucas boys, the original Princes of Darkness, must be laughing in their graves.
My favorite has to be coolant migration… engine coolant makes it’s way into the thermistor aka coolant temp sender then into the wiring harness all the way up and into the engine control module. Liquid cooled computers are best for the over clocked and water cooled gamer crowd.
A close second has to be the ever entertaining aftermarket hacking of seriously high tech vehicles like the A8L. I’ve seen a hands free phone installation shut a car down because the installer tapped into the fuel injector power… ECM didn’t like that too much. Some vehicles should never be touched by anybody other than a select few technicians.
I agree current production cars are becoming ever more laden with unnecessary ancillary subsystems which serve little purpose relative to the vehicle’s primary function… transportation. There is no going back now… oh no, onward to bigger and more expensive proprietarization and integration of modules, networks and data buses.
Luckily by the time many of these technological monsters are out of warranty the few technicians who are able to fix them have had years of experience diagnosing issues on the manufacturer’s dime which might increase the probability of a successful diagnosis and repair when it is on the customer’s dime. Of course in some cases it may mean the technician has to spend an hour digging for technical bulletin information from say five years ago.
A person who wants to buy a car walks into a dealership. He/She states:
I need a GPS, Bluetooth, iPod hookup on the top-end stereo, heated and cooled seats, ABS, stability control, traction control, a built in hard drive to store music, satellite radio, xenon headlights, LEDs in the rear, 300hp, adjustable suspension, hybrid technology, power everything, an automated “manual” transmission, keyless ignition and locking, and so on.
I want it for under $30,000. Make it happen!
Cost cutting kills the electronics. Think about it – if you were to load up, let’s say, a new Jeep Liberty with all (or most) of the above, it still functions with the same electrical system as the 2wd base model. They can’t charge the consumer a ton of money for adding additional and more robust electrical system components to handle the load of the extra gizmos, so they have to cheapen the build quality of things…and they really couldn’t cheapen the interior materials any more.
I believe that if BMW and Mercedes (especially) put the same effort and craftmanship into today’s cars as they did 10-15 years ago, the smallest 3-series and C-class probably would start at over 50 grand. They would use better components and more durable parts. I think if the German companies don’t get a handle on quality issues, their sales would plunge. Instead I see them (or hope) calling a truce and work out the bugs with things they already use. Don’t most BMW owners with iDrive have at least one horror story? (I know someone with a 745Li right before the “emergency” redesign of the front and back…3,000 miles…3 flatbed tows…all iDrive related. A Porsche was traded in for this car. A Porsche is back in their driveway and they’ll never touch BMW again.)
Personally I like cars that start up in the morning and I don’t need to attend a weekend class on how to use the damn thing!
Any wonder why both my daily drivers were built in 1968?
Then again, today’s “hot rodders” basically install electronics and plastic “body kits” rather than doing mechanical work and realizing their own vision for the bodywork and paint.
My favorite part of car electronics is that cars are really miserable environments for electrical stuff. Go open the hood of any 10-year-old car and see how flexible the plastic-insulated wiring is–it will more than likely be stiff as a nail and the insulation is going to crack if you bend the wire.
Other components suffer from extremes of heat and cold, moisture and vibration. It is a recipe for failure.
When I totally rebuilt my comparatively primitive 1983 fuel-injected, Apollo-era computer-controlled 911SC–go to amazon.com and do a search for “The Gold-Plated Porsche” for the whole story–I removed a big ECU about the size of a hardcover novel plus a Medusa’s-head wiring harness from the car and threw the whole mess out. Put in carburetors–two three-barrel PMOs–and now there are something like three wires coming from elsewhere to the engine.
I love it. I’m back to the days when troubleshooting consisted of “If you have gas, air and a spark, the engine should run. If any one is missing, look there for the problem.”
Is it possible that some of the electrical problems mentioned could be the fault of the owner, the dealer, or the mishandling by a repair facility. For example, new Saab use fiber optic cables to connect various electronic components. If the owner has a dead battery, and gets a “jump” from one of those boosters, it could damage the components. In fact, the owner’s manual calls for a tow back to the dealer for a deal battery. But sale people routinely go around giving cars on their lot a boost, if they have been sitting for a long time. So, little by little, this could cause degradation. I strongly doubt that Saab is the only company using fiber optic cabling.
Is this the fault of the design or the quality or it is the fault of people thinking they can treat every modern car the same as they treated a 57 Chevy. Here is a non-electronic example: wheel lug nut torque. I can’t tell you the number of times I have had my wheels over tightened by a shop. I just bought a used Volvo with 19mm lug nuts, and they call for 62ft lbs. I checked the torque, and it was nearly 90, so I re torqued. Am I being anal? No. Because incorrect torque can cause warping of the rotors. If the rotors warp on a car because the shop over tightens the lug nuts; does that mean the car has poor quality? Of course not. If a car has been abused and has electronic problems, is that poor quality? No. Are cars getting more complicated? It depends if you thing replacing an electronic component is more complicated than synchronizing 4 carburetors. Personally, I find electronics fairly easy to diagnose and to replace. It is usually a matter of unplugging something and plugging something else in. What is needed, however, are some friendly hackers that can allow laptop users to tap into the on-board electronics diagnose their own problems; and do those other things that only the dealers can now do.
62 ft.-lbs. of lugnut torque??? That is seriously soft. You sure that’s right? I just torqued my V50’s wheels to 95 ft.-lbs.
Here’s a different tack.
I am the radio operator with International Rally New York. Each rally, I work with the Course Stewards to clear rally stages for the competitors.
Last time, the Stewards had a Tahoe. The Tahoe had the usual Stability Control system, which we could not figure out how to shut off for love or money.
I’ve driven these roads with the same driver in Audi Quattros, and know how they can be taken, and have faith in the driver.
The Tahoe was set up not to upset soccer mom. By the end of the rally, I commented to the Driver, “you’ve always wondered what it is to be a mediocre driver…now you know”.
OK, I will admit that a rally on loose surfaces is not “normal”, but I have a hard time with a system that can’t be shut off.
I think I need to switch over our family fleet to late model Volvo 240s. At least with those I know I will still be able to repair them 10 or 20 years down the line! No communications bus. If the wiper relay dies, only the wiper stops working!
Most auto companies outsource or use external suppliers/vendors for much of the electronic wizardry. As some people have mentioned, they have a choice between supplier A, who does great testing and uses quality parts; or supplier B, who does no testing but is 50% cheaper. Guess which one they usually choose?
Even worse, many of these suppliers come from an auto industry background, with little experience in true software and hardware engineering.
The interesting thing is now the traditional software and hardware companies are getting into auto electronics. Will the Microsoft Sync system in Fords result in greater reliability or a BSOD (blue screen of death)? It sounds like it can’t get much worse!
Stephan Wilkinson wrote:
“62 ft.-lbs. of lugnut torque??? That is seriously soft. You sure that’s right? I just torqued my V50’s wheels to 95 ft.-lbs.”
I also thought it was a bit low. My Saab uses 82 ft lbs for a 19mm lug nut. But here is where I got the figure.
http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=77794
The “service engine” light on my wife’s 97 Taurus wagon has been on for about five years now. Every year or so it is reset by a tech with a gizmo and nothing happens except it comes back on after about 2 miles. Fortunately, the car was designed with a oil dip stick just like in the 1960s or 40s or 20s.. So when the oil level finally goes below a certain mark I know enough to put some oil in. Not too complicated. The last car I had was an Audi in the 1980’s. The fanciest possible with independently heated seat, two area a/c, electric this that and everything. When the cruise control adjustments started to affect the seat heaters, and the moon roof controled the windshield wipers, and the tank registered empty at all times I sold it and never looked back. Now I can do a complete overhaul of my Canondale bike including wheel bearings, bottom bracket, head set, and deraillers, and brakes in about three hours. If you gave me a new car I would sell it. Mechancial is the only way to go along with leg power. Welcome to the future!
“Put in carburetors–two three-barrel PMOs–and now there are something like three wires coming from elsewhere to the engine.
I love it. I’m back to the days when troubleshooting consisted of “If you have gas, air and a spark, the engine should run. If any one is missing, look there for the problem.”
I went the other way with my 1972 240z. I installed a Wolf EMS to run my ’83 280zx turbo engine. I have made major modifications to the engine and the stock computer was worthless. The same heuristic holds true though: air, fuel, spark. I only need worry about three sensors and these are easy to diagnose since I can datalog.
I believe that the problem today is not the electronic wizardy within the cars but the fact that there is no redunancy and that they have connected (ala BMW’s k-bus) all of the various subsystems together.
Keep the engine, transmission, and interior systems separate. A failure of one should not cause the failure of another.
Stephan, I also found this reference in the Owner’s manual, on page 137 (2005, S40 T5 AWD):
“Installing the wheel
1. Clean the contact surfaces on the wheel and hub.
2. Lift the wheel and place it on the hub.
3. Install the wheel nuts and tighten hand-tight. Using the lug wrench, tighten crosswise until all nuts are snug.
4. Lower the vehicle to the ground and alternately tighten the bolts crosswise to 62 ft. lbs. (85 Nm).”
So 95lbs could warp your rotors and/or stretch the threads on your lug bolts/nuts.
Carlos, you’re right. I looked in my owner’s manual and that’s what it says. I’d used 95 ft.-lbs. because it’s what specified for both of our Porsches so I assumed that was sort of Eurocar standard. New wheels and snowtires go on tomorrow morning, so I’ll correct it. Thanks!
I believe that the problem today is not the electronic wizardy within the cars but the fact that there is no redunancy and that they have connected (ala BMW’s k-bus) all of the various subsystems together.
This is the type of cheapo engineering I would expect to find hidden underneath a Kia, NOT a BMW!
WTF is the point of paying $40,000+ for a car if teh manufacturer is going to dick you around like you purchased a $14,000 bargin basement sub-compact. Like I said when you buy a low priced car fitted with what many would consider to be high-end options like a NAV system you kinda expect to see cut rate engineering as the means of being able to equip a low priced car as such.
I need a GPS, Bluetooth, iPod hookup on the top-end stereo, heated and cooled seats, ABS, stability control, traction control, a built in hard drive to store music, satellite radio, xenon headlights, LEDs in the rear, 300hp, adjustable suspension, hybrid technology, power everything, an automated “manual” transmission, keyless ignition and locking, and so on.
I want it for under $30,000. Make it happen!
OK, let me see… My PDA has Bluetooth, it can play music, it has GPS and it it rather rugged. It costs $500. One can have rugged notebook with full blown OS and zillion applications for about $1500. Why does can Nav system and upgraded stereo costs $2000? I guess it is about margins. I bet manufacturer cost is $500, not $1950.
ABS and traction control are old technologies that typically work reliably and do not need a computer in a sense of iDrive or Audi MM or MB COMAND. Power windows are 30 years old and don’t need to be connected to the engine control bus.
Automakers do everything they can to prevent you from upgrading stereo yourself for $200 + speakers or adding aftermarket GPS for $300. NOOOOOOO! They’ll keep piling gizmos because that’s where the margins are and where you don’t have any choice except paying the manufacturer outrageous money. iPod integration in E60 BMW for $800??? $300 for iPod and $800 for a small gadget that does not even work reliably? My PC costs that much and happily integrates with iPod for FREE. Alpine aftermarked iPod adapter is $100. And yet BMW happily charges $800.