Honda is quite literally gearing up its California-compliant diesels for the U.S. market. A few months ago, Honda started telling everyone that their i-DTEC oil-burning engines were headed for the U.S. Diesel fans were all a-twitter– even if the high mileage, high torque powerplant was destined to sit in the new, overdone and overweight Accord (or more expensive but generally better looking TSX). What Car reminds us just how much prep is involved. Step one, emissions compliance with a particulate standard that's twice as tough as the European Union's. Step two, configure an automatic transmission to work with the damn thing. That's right, until now the Honda-branded diesels (in Honda cars) were stick only. As less than 10 percent of U.S. driver drive a manual car, a diesel-compatible autobox is mission critical. Other updates in diesel news: Volkswagen hasn't released any info about its 50-state diesel engine since it said it would be delayed… again. So no, that's not really an update. It's a complaint. Get on the ball VW, before Honda beats you to the punch.
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Justin: “California-complaint“: freudian slip? LOL.
I’m anxiously waiting to see what Honda brings over. It sucks that they HAVE to sell it with an automagic, but people are stupid, so what can you do…
As for the Jetta, it’s coming in June. http://www.dieselforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=447
And VW will be selling a Touareg V6 TDI in 2009 in North America.
Could they build subtle marketing buzz by releasing the stick only version for the first six months?
Or would potential auto-only customers melt down on the dealer floor and stay away.
I wonder…
Why does it have the Grand Tetons on the side? People in Wyoming love their diesels, but they are mostly Cummins, Duramax and Powerstrokes.
As an aside, I saw an ’08 Accord on the highway the other day. Man is that thing ugly looking – the pictures on their website make it look good.
Now if they made a light-weight manual tranny Civic Diesel, I would be interested in that as a commuter car.
As less than 10 percent of U.S. driver know how to drive a manual car,
Is it really this small a percentage of people who knoe how to drive stick? Thats what 15-20 million drivers, it seems aweful small to me. Maybe we are a dieing breed, in this country at least.
Less than 10% of the cars *sold* in the US may be manual transmissions, but I would wager that a good percentage of those buying and driving automatics at least remember how to drive a stick, but choose not to do so for various reasons.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=758867
When I met my wife (before we were married). I told her that if we did tie the knot she will learn to drive stick well. Now that’s all she drives as she doesn’t like automatics anymore. Even when she car shops – won’t consider an auto. She’s even now autox for fun (and see what I see when I competitively race).
Redbarchetta,
It is about 10%. Having a manual is a good way to avoid getting your car stolen. A lot of would-be thieves can’t drive ’em.
I think it’s great Honda’s finally bringing the diesels here.
I think it’s great Honda’s finally bringing the diesels here.
Right on! It begs the question as to what the domestics might/will/are doing to compete.
jaje I did the same thing with my wife. She knew how to drive stick when we met, a little. It took a while for me to convince her that driving a stick is so much more fun than a boring auto, and since I told he I wasn’t going to buy anymore autos. It pretty much eliminated all the domestics from our last car purchase, not that they would have fit the fun factor and that i refused to get FWD. She loves it now it couldn’t see going back to an auto or FWD.
I’m not convinced the US is ever going to embrace diesels in mainstream cars with open arms like Europe does. I’m also not convinced that we should.
We like gasoline engines, gasoline pumps are everywhere, we like that gasoline doesn’t add cost to the sticker of a new car, and we like that gasoline is cheaper than diesel.
We also like hybrids, and that might be the biggest hurdle diesel must face here above all.
Note to Honda: I love Diesels. I will never buy a gasoline powered car again. Ever.
I love manual transmissions. I will never buy a car equipped with a slushbox. Ever.
I love convertibles, especially 2 seat convertibles. If you have the balls to ship a 2 seat convertible with a Diesel, I’ll buy it.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
Chuck: “I love convertibles, especially 2 seat convertibles. If you have the balls to ship a 2 seat convertible with a Diesel, I’ll buy it.”
A diesel S2000? That’d be different, to say the very least, and maybe allow them to keep the platform around longer. They could call it the D2200, or S2200D.
Yeah, talking about sticks is drifting off the topic a little…but I have to say that I think the reason sticks are so unpopular is for two reasons:
1. People are too busy. Adding the need to shift is just one more task to add to the smoking, telephoning, eating, drinking, TV watching, radio listening, makeup applying, and steering; and
2. it most cases it takes just one person in a household to refuse a stick shift to make every car in that driveway an automatic.
I do not think diesels will sell in significant numbers. Diesel Accords or Jettas will only sell maybe 10% of that particular model.
Why? Two reasons:
Diesel fuel costs more. For the same exact driving habits, diesel’s purported economic advantage is ALMOST a wash. Diesel fuel operating costs are not as low as most talking heads in the MSM say it is.
Yesterday, I pumped gasoline. The pump had both a diesel and gasoline filler hose. I actually had to stand some distance from my car while it gassed up to keep my clothes from saturating with the stench of diesel. (Needless to say, this gasoline retailer in my hometown has lost my business for good.) Is a 5% savings in fuel costs worth ruining your clothes and your home and your car’s interior with the stench of diesel?
What I want is a decent trade-off between size, performance, economy, and total operating costs. This is why I am partial to HONDA mid sized 5spd four banger sedans. Hybrids and diesels just do not cut it for me.
I predict that many of these buyers of new diesel vehicles will be sellers of these vehicles soon enough.
Much awaited. I would have thought Honda would install their Diesel Motors on SUV’s & Trucks first. They benefit most on the extra low-end torque and fuel economy. No?
Sad story about the manual tranny…I can’t believe I have to give that up to get a Honda Diesel.
The article doesn’t say that Honda won’t sell a stick diesel, just that they need to have an automatic to sell. I would assume they’ll offer a stick, but can’t confirm it.
I agree that at current gas/diesel prices, the diesels won’t be big sellers, except among the biodiesel users (big here in Eugene), and diesel lovers. The economics just don’t pan out for most users, unless the manufacturers subsidize the incremental cost of the diesel engine to pump up their CAFE numbers, like MB is doing with their 320E CDI.
Honda’s really going full-bore on this if they want to adapt an automatic transmission for the NA market. If their engine currently meets CARB, I wonder if they thought about importing a lower volume of stick-shift cars before going all in.
One of the things that turned me on about my wife was that she could drive a stick… Something to do with how she holds the gearshift, I guess…
“Or would potential auto-only customers melt down on the dealer floor and stay away.”
My wife would melt. When I replace my Ranger, the new whip will have an auto box. I’m tired of having something my wife can’t drive – she can’t use it when her car is being serviced. She can’t move it out of her way if I park behind her in the driveway. We can’t even trade vehicles for a day if there is some reason I need passenger space. I’m 51, been stiring my own gears for many years. I’m tired of it. Gas, diesel, hybrid, Mr. Fusion, whatever the power source, lack of an auto box would be a deal killer for me.
My son loves driving a stick, and I used to when I was his age. Now that I’ve gotten old and somewhat contrarian, I have to wonder what is so fun about a stick? I mean, in normal day to day traffic, moving a shift lever back and forth is about as much fun as operating a machine in a factory.
Somehow I dont think most folks that are interesting in a Honda Accord will be interested in a Diesel powered one. I don’t know about Europe but IMO Honda (the maker of what I consider to be the best 4cyl gasoline engines) and Diesel do not fit together very well.
A Gasoline powered 4 cyl Accord already gets very good gas mileage so truly what is the point of a low revving, stinking, funny sounding, slower, Accord that you needs to now “search” for fuel to fill it up?
The average Accord shopper will buy a Civic Hybrid, Camry Hybrid or a Prius before they go in for a Diesel Accord.
Diesels are cute but in the USA I think Toyota has already set a presidence with Hybrid technology that Americans will always consider cleaner and more conveinent than diesel (truck) fuel.
Notice none of the domestics appear to be very interested in jumping on the diesel band wagon but are willing to play the Hybrid game. I think with this matter they have a very good understanding of the American driver.
I don’t understand why anyone would want a diesel over a hybrid car?
A Prius that get say 45 mpg uses electric motor get a percentage
of that MPG. While a diesel needs 100% of fuel to get say 55MPG.
In stop and go traffic the Prius can use the electric motor and not use any fuel! While a diesel has to use fuel regardless of how you drive.
A Prius can fill up at $30 while a diesel would cost $45-55 depending on location. In my area diesel is 30% more than regular.
Not to mention the cold weather issues with diesels.
Peak Oil will change everything, people won’t care how bad the fuel smells, they will just want affordable transportation (which means it has good mpg) that will get them to work and back.
It may be too late in the thread to point this out, but the reason manufacturers don’t offer manuals is very simple, and anyone can do the arithmetic: Whatever you use as a powertrain–automatic, CVT, manual, warp drive, coasting, pedaling–has to be certificated and tested/proven/validated for the U.S. DOT and EPA.
Three percent of the market for a typical car, on average, opts for manual transmissions. (We’re talkin’ Honda sedans here, not Boxsters.) So the vehicle manufacturer simply figures, “Our profit from selling 3,000 manual-transmission vehicles in the U.S. will be X. The cost to certify that powertrain will be X+. Tell me how hard this decision is?”
@ whatdoiknow1 – “Notice none of the domestics appear to be very interested in jumping on the diesel band wagon but are willing to play the Hybrid game. I think with this matter they have a very good understanding of the American driver.”
Hybrids are a sort of “have your cake and eat it too” proposition. The convenience of gasoline with an electric motor around to stretch out your mileage even further. No need to suffer cramped tin can cars, dirty diesel pumps or reduced performance and, if you’re one of the many who own a Prius or similar, you get the “environmentally conscious” label to boot. It’s little wonder that Americans are far more receptive to those than they are to diesels. The fact that GM largely tainted the perception of the diesel engine with their abortive efforts helps none.
DTEC just kicked in.
Hybrids are a sort of “have your cake and eat it too” proposition.
Sure, unless you want a stick and prefer to keep your cars forever. Then that auto-only and exceedingly complex hybrid cake doesn’t seem so tasty. Of course, Toyota is going to be far more successful selling disposable cars to the masses here than Honda and Subaru will be selling manual diesels built to last to Neanderthals like me. There’s no question about it.
To the uninformed diesel naysayers that still think it’s 1985, I dare you to actually test drive a new diesel when they appear again. I have both a 2000 and 2003 Jetta TDI, and love them. I personally hate the smell of gasoline, but unfortunately my lawnmower runs better on it than diesel. My cars have no problems starting in Maine winters, and they stink much less than a gas engine. Ever smelled exhaust from a gas engine that’s just been started? Good god, it’s enough to make me vomit. Gas-electric hybrids do have advantages, but once you experience the torque and economy of a modern diesel, there’s no need to ever want to subject yourself to driving a gas powered vehicle again. Get some edumacation before knocking something. Diesel technology has come a long way in the last 10 years even.
whatdoiknow1 I don’t thing Honda is bringing the diesels to get their typical Accord buyer, they have already go them with their standard gas or hybrid cars. There are a lot of people like myself who have been waiting for more choice in diesels. My guess is the first year or two they are targeting VW buyers tired of the VW dealer experience just to get a diesel and all the diehard diesel people out there still trucking along in their old Merc 300Ds that have been waiting for something better to come along. After a while and other manf. hit the market(Subaru/Toyota) with them I think we will start to see a larger portion of the market buying them. If this new clean sheet designed Honda diesel is as well designed as their 4 cylinder gas engines I don’t see Honda having any problems and will probably have a hard time keeping up with demand once the word gets out how great they are.
When hybrids came out their were a lot of naysayers including Detroit and we all know how that turned out, I wouldn’t use them as much of an indicator. And compared to a hybrid with a diesel you get to have great mileage and a really fun drive, and the added bonus is you can pack on the miles.
Around here there are a bunch of gas stations that sell diesel and some of them are brand new with nice clean pumps. The ones with nasty pumps, all the pumps are nasty including gas. When I had my 300TD I never had a problem finding a place to fill up even when I was in unfamiliar territory. And I know how to pump gas without getting it on myself, like using a urinal without peeing on your leg. And if you hands smell go wash them. If you don’t like them don’t buy them, more for the rest of us.
The US has become a nation obsessed with meaningless conveniences. People can’t be bothered to shift, can’t be bothered to cook food, can’t be bothered to fix anything (just throw it away) and often can’t be bothered to give a friend or neighbor a helping hand.
Everyone is busy, but mostly with noise and nonsense. People chatting constantly on their cellphones but often with little of substance to say. Teens spending countless hours playing video games. Middle aged car nuts reading and writing on blogs (oops!).
I much prefer to drive a manual transmission car, but boy are they getting hard to find!
Years ago I tried to buy a Passat Diesel Manual Transmission Wagon … and was told that while they were available the dealer could only get one every three or four months. Crazy.
I had to learn at 32, when I had to switch cars with my pregnant wife after she had a fender-bender in her old Civic hatch; and I was told I’d grow to love a stick; everybody does, after all. Baloney. It was just awful having to keep shifting while stuck in stop&go traffic; and when in free-flow conditions, I lost the ability to have my arm on the window like I did in the AUTO convertible I had to switch out of.
I,m of the belief that diesels will play a huge role in this 35mpg thing.G.Ms effort in the early 80s ranks with the Edsel,as one of the most massive blunders of all time.I think there is a market for diesel.Honda engines have a great reputation.I hope they can convince North Americans that the diesel is a viable alternative to the hybrid.
Late to the party here but I thought I’d comment.
I grew up on a farm and thus believe I have different perspective (could be wrong though). I’m a firm believer that a turbo diesel and diesels in your basic sedan application are better suited to an auto tranny. I love my manual vehicles (’00 Passat GLX V6 & ’05 Suby Legacy GT Wagon) but the low redline/rpm of a diesel makes shifting almost laborious beyond enjoyment. And today’s autos can keep the diesel in it’s optimum hp/torque producing rpm better then a manual would. A lot of this has to do with keeping the turbo spooled up – shifting manual simply takes a bit longer then some of today’s autos, or a DSG (IMHO the holy grail), take. And ultimately this will affect your MPG which is what most of the diesel infatuation is about. My Old Man had a 1983 Pontiac 6000 diesel. This was the V6 that was designed as a diesel from the ground-up and not the disaster V8. The only problem he ever had was an o-ring going bad somewhere in the injector pump. It only had 85 hp (no idea on torque) but I could snap somebody’s head off at a stop light with the immediate torque. Anyway, the automatic made that vehicle and absolutely helped it get the great fuel mileage it had (you could get 40+ on the hwy).
As for Detroit not being interested in diesels somehow being an indicator of where the market is going? Let’s just go over a small # of things Detroit wasn’t “interested in”
-small cars
-four cyclinder engines
-anything more than a three speed automatic tranny
-anything more than a four-speed manual
-hybrids
-quality
-refinement
-variable valve timing
I could go on but it’s obvious where not being interested in these things has gotten them. Detroit got to the party late on nearly every advancement there has been in the last 35 years. Sure, Cadillac had the first electric starter but that doesn’t matter today.
With all that 2+ cents I can say that I’d be glad to purchase a Acura TSX with a diesel and an auto but even more so if it were a wagon with a DSG tranny.
i sold my ’83 240d benz w/ 4 speed manual in 2006. someone paid my buy it now price on ebay 6 hours after the auction started. i was still getting email 2 weeks later from people who were interested. i think that the subset of people who are interested in diesels overlaps nicely with manual transmission fans.