A reader emailed me recently, asking why I tolerated the following post by coupdetat: "I remember being at the old Ontario Motor Speedway and not being able to see the San Bernadino Mountains back in 1973. I figure the pollution controls on cars and industry allow us to enjoy the beauty of the state and have the beauty there for the coming generations. Now if we could get all these transplants to leave, it would be even nicer." The reader reckoned it was a racist remark. I saw it as a off-hand, tongue-in-cheek comment about out-of-staters. The reader was adamant. "It's an 'us vs. them' statement that definitely has nothing to do with the topic at hand," he protested. Barring some convincing argument here, I've decided to go with my gut and leave the post as is. Meanwhile, the debate got me thinking about the wider point: how life is, at its most fundamental level, a competition for resources. There are millions of battles every minute of every day; for clean air, water, steel to make cars, customers to buy the cars, readers to visit car-related websites, etc. Call me a heartless Darwinist, but I don't think 'us vs. them' conflicts are inherently bad. In fact, I believe humans were born to compete– in groups. If we weren't, I wouldn't be here. Nor, in fact, would you. And I mean that in the full, collective, inclusive sense of the word.
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I also interpreted the phrase as meaning transplants to California, including Americans from other states.
I took it to mean those with organ transplants.
Well i am going to say it, flame me or not. Transplants are people from all over the country moving to cali for numberous reason which is ok, but when you have thousands of illegals from Mexico crossing the border with their 6 or 7 kids, thats whats wrong with the great state of California. Its resources are being sucked dry due to the number of illegals flooding the state. I am for immigration, LEGAL immigration that is. I am a immigrant myself but I took the legal steps to get here and I did not “sneak in”. I think that people are moving out of California at alarming rates due to Hospitals being flooded by tons of Mexicans without any papers or American ID’s expecting treatment. At the same time you have multiple cali natives who don’t get the medical treatment they paid (taxes) for. Its sad to see such a beautiful state going through all these problems.
I thought he was talking about the transplant manufacturers, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc…
Which, now that I think about it, makes no sense – the transplants cars produce less shit than the ‘American’ ones… maybe because the American ones are made in Mexico, and I bet the factories use local water… hence the extra shit…
Yeah, that’s not discriminatory…
They rolled the red carpet out for illegals with free services, sanctuary policies, job opportunities(without required working papers) and great living.
This all costs money, someone has to pay.
I always wonder if anyone is left in California. It seems like every Californian in the last 20+ years has sold their house for a million bucks and moved up here to the Pacific Northwest… and done their best to californicate-up the area.
Though the rains eventually send them fleeing south at some point… it is our only defence.
–chuck
Hey, we began life as winners, in a competition against millions of others who had the exact same goal. That was me against everybody. :-)
California is growing faster than a lot of third world countries. In the ’90s, it went from 29 million to nearly 35 million. It grew that much despite the fact that on average, native US citizens who live in California are leaving.
Moreover, immigration, both legal and illegal, added the equivalent of one California circa 1990, or three New Jerseys to the US population, and the Pew Research Center says immigration will add well over 100 million by 2050.
In my opinion, growing the US population does not improve our nation in any way, and reduces the quality of life. If you want to do something about illegal immigraiton, call your Congress person and tell them to sign the discharge petition for the SAVE Act (which would require employers to verify immigration status of prospetive employees). This needs to be done today. Main # for Congress is 202-224-3121. More info on this at http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/attrition.html#s2
In fact, you can call any of the congress people on the list (see the websitej)
And no, this is not about racism. to paraphrase Pres Clinton, It’s the numbers, stupid!
As somebody who is about to move to the Bay Area from rural New York, I must admit I noticed the remark and flinched, but it never occurred to me that it referred to Mexicans. But then there _aren’t_ any Mexicans where I live. Except for the invisible ones that work the onion fields just south of here…I guess I’m in for an education, but I hope they let me in.
As for the us-versus-them part of the equation, I think our only hope is younger generations, even not-yet-born generations. Among the 30-to-60-year-olds (I assume) on this forum, I see way too much hate, selfishness and disregard for the environment.
During the first fuel crisis, in 1973 (right?) I had a friend who had a novel approach to the fuel-shortage problem: he was going to get as much gas as he damn well could by whatever means he could and burn it up as freely as he could, because he believed that “that gas was his,” and if he didn’t use it, somebody else would. I’ve never forgotten that sensible selfishness, if you could call it that.
SW: I repeat, this is not about racism. It’s not about prejudice against Mexicans, or anyone else. It’s about numbers. Should the US grow from 300-450 million over the next 40-45 years? What would we have to do as a country to cope with that kind of growth? A New York Times Mag cover story in Oct or Nov warned that we are already facing water crises all over the west, and even other parts of the country. How are we going to deal with that if we keep growing?
What about our most deprived citizens, who compete with low and unskilled immigrants for work? According to the US National Academy of Sciences, the average wage of US high school dropouts plummeted 27% from 1979-1995, and more than half of that drop was due to competition with immigrants.
Then there’s the issue of global climate disruption, and ocean acidification. We produce more greenhouse gas per capita than any other big country. How are we going to reduce our contribution if our country grows by 50% over the next 40 years?
Mexico–the source of about half of all immigrants–is not a paricularly poor country. But it is a particularly corrrupt one, with huge disparities of income. (The second wealthiest man in the world is a Mexican.) They have a deliberate policy of exporting their poorest people to the US–their president was recently in the US lobbying for so-called comprehensive immigration reform–both so that they don’t have to deal with their poor, and because their biggest source of income is now remittances from Mexican immigrants in the US–$20 billion a year. One out of every 7 Mexican workers is in the US.
The US needs to stabilize its population. Unless we can do that, we’re always going to be running to stay in place on environmental problems, quality of life, etc.
These policy matters should absolutely NEVER be used as an excuse to treat other people badly on the basis of their appearance, skin color, etc.
For living in a country founded by colonial immigrants occupying another peoples land and earning their livings on slavework from another, I find americans very bigot and anti-immigration in their mindset when it comes to people who wants to move to their backyard. Remember, USA wouldn’t be anything if it weren’t for all people that has contributed to the wealth of all other people in the country. The american economy is founded and based on immigration, and the economy booms for every new immigrant that arrives. That, and by invading other countries, killing their people and taking their oil and wealth.
Re Ingvar, above: we used to have a frontier, and in those days, immigration was a boon. We don’t have a frontier anymore, and according to the US National Academy of Sciences in a 1997 study, the average Californian family was paying an additional $1178 in taxes to finance about $3,000 worth of transfers to the average immigrant family.
Policies have to change as conditions change.
The notion that “The American economy is founded and based on immigration” is a gross exaggeration. One of the major reasons the American economy boomed was that compared to other parts of the world, land and resources were plentiful.
No, there are no frontiers left. You killed all the indians, and moved the survivors into “territories” while stealing their land.
Money-transfers are not made in a vacuum. It is not a one way street. Talking about paying, we all pay for our children when they grow up. It is an investment in the future. What we pay now for food, kindergartens, schools and so on, will our children pay with their wages and taxes in 20 years. What goes around comes around. The point is, yes, immigration costs. Now. But will pay off. In the whole. And for the whole country as such. Think outside the box. Think longer than your nose.
Uh, Ingvar, oil is real tight these days, and getting more so. Americans use more per capita than anyone else. What do you think is going to happen if our population keeps growing at the current rate, which is faster than any other industrialized nation, and as fast as some developing nations? And as for immigration paying off, read my earlier posts. The US can’t sustain a population that is any bigger than the one we have over the long term, and the planet can’t sustain the US having a bigger population. And immigrants, who are mostly low-skilled aren’t going to be paying for anyone but themselves 20 years from now. They have a much higher rate of welfare than native US citizens.
Finally, while I agree with you that what happened to the Indians is terrible, the same thing happened to people all over Europe as farmers took land from hunter-gatherers (the Basques are probably remnants of these people, who like the Indians, had their land taken), and really everywhere in the world as farmers, who were far more numerous, and who usually had far superior weapons, took land from hunter-gatherers. In our cosmology, perhaps everyone in the farming and industrial nations should commit suicide so the hunter-gatherers can have the land back?
Those of us alive today did not kill Indians, or steal their land. That’s history, and we can’t do anything about it, so it is irrelevant to questions of what current policy should be.
I’m a native Californian, and I didn’t think anything racist about the post. I thought of out-of-state migrants myself.
Reminds me of the lyrics to a great song “I’m Not From Here” by one of my favorite artists, James McMurtry.
I’m not from here
but people tell me
it’s not like it used to be
they say I should have been here
back about ten years
before it got ruined by folks like me
AIUI, the population of American citizens is declining, as is the population of most industrialized countries. It is the illegal, but invited, workers and their families that are increasing the overall US population. My viewpoint on illegals is if they’re good enough to work here, they’re good enough to live here. Either keep them out or let them in, but don’t sneak them in because they work cheap, then offer them no chance to stay. That’s just exploitation.
yankinowaoz: Wow, Larry’s son. Didn’t know that. His father’s brilliant. Thank you for the introduction, gonna buy some of his tunes.
“Uh, Ingvar, oil is real tight these days, and getting more so. Americans use more per capita than anyone else. What do you think is going to happen…”
I think that USA will invade Iran and occupy that country, steal their land and seize their oil, and killing some half million arabs on their way, as in Iraq. Remember the next time you complain about gas prizes, that if it weren’t for the sacrifice of some million others that you don’t give a shit about, the prices would be even higher. The americans lust for oil is payed with blood.
“Those of us alive today did not kill Indians, or steal their land. That’s history, and we can’t do anything about it, so it is irrelevant to questions of what current policy should be.”
No, You personally didn’t kill any indians, but it’s part of the culture and the true heritage of the american mindset. What will You say to your grandchildren? “Well, I didn’t kill any arabs, I didn’t know we stole their oil, so it is irrelevant to questions of what current policy should be.”
Of course You can do something about it. History is there so that we can learn from our mistakes. Hopefully, at least. We all have our crosses to bear. The point is, if we don’t learn and act well, the history will repeat itself. It is never to late to stand up and make right. It is never to late to act good and fight hypocrisy, corruption, bad management, murder, theft, un-justice at large. Not in history, but today.
Humans are living the best way they know how. I know enough about humans dynamics to see there is no one to blame. When my dis-ease is not to much. I like every other being am following my bliss. I discovered abusing others puts a damper on my bliss ie. causes dis-ease. I am self-ish, I deal with my dis-ease. Since others are not to blame, the source of my dis-ease is not them. I am so self-ish that I will not abuse them, and ruin my bliss, usually. Being self-ih is great, its a blessed response-ability.
Others dis-ease causes them to perceive others as the cause of their pain and ultimately an obstruction to bliss. Hence we have so much violence and hate and bigotry. Its a lesson in disguise. Follow your bliss, be self-ish, deal with your dis-ease as best you can. Some still kill, abuse, etc often. I’m progressing to smile and laugh more often. Things happen for a reason (hint: so we can learn). We are works in progress, works in process.
hint: heal your inner child….joy2meu.com
ingvar and dave;
Used to be Spanish was the official language in Cali. Americans forbidden entry. It was called “Mexico.”
The US didn’t steal california from Indians in 1840’s. We stole it from Mexico. Go read “blood and Thunder,” recent best seller. Kit Carson, key personage.
Then we killed off many of whoever was left there. There was much prior killing. We killed the indians outside Cali to the east and north. Sure. Yeah. Prof Diamond estimated 10 million natives preColumbian along coast if I remember. 100 million on continent. Many more in SA. Most killing was biological warfare whether intended or not. First round of killing was unintentional, soon followed by intentional.
Mexico had two decades earlier got independent from Spain, who did plenty of native clearing.
When I say WE I do not mean today USA population, although I do not trust us, knowing us. No way. I mean Europeans. Spain #1 killer. Pigs running across the virgin land, carrying.
Summing up, when we see Mexicans hopping over fence into southern Cali (and into Texas etc), they have history there too.
What does this have to do with cars… pollution, smog reduction, GM intransigence, OK I remember.
My dad in NY desperately hates all Mexicans except the ones he knows and he loves them and cheerfully employs them, illegally. And they aren’t even Mexicans, they are from Guatemala.
Ingvar,
I stumped in New Hampshire for John Kerry because I wanted us to get the hell out of Iraq. And I have told Senator Kennedy that I want Cape Wind built so that we’ll produce more renewable energy in this country and be a little bit closer to getting off oil (he is a major opponent and he’s my senator). I write about renewable energy. I am doing everything I know how to keep us from invading Iran. I consider Bush to be the worst president we’ve ever had, and his time in office will go down as a terrible blot on American history. So don’t go trying to tell me what I think or don’t think.
Johnny Ro: yes, I’m aware of that history. For much more on who was living in the Americas before Europeans came here, you should read 1491 by Cameron Mann. Excellent research into the numbers of people–something on the order of what you are saying. Also goes into the various civilizations in the Americas, very sophisticated. And died out very quickly, due much more to disease (the native Americans had no defenses against a lot of European diseases–well, as you probably know from reading Diamond). For example, Massachusetts was packed with Indians in 1600; by the time the Pilgrims arrived, ~1620, about 90% had died out. There had been Indian towns every few miles along the coast, and then almost all were gone. 1491 is an absolutely superb book, one of the five best I’ve ever read. If you liked Guns Germs and Steel, you’ll like this.
This thread has now yielded two recommendations that are going to cost me money–singer James McMurtry, Larry’s son, and now David’s touting the book 1491. It’s getting better than Head Butler. Thank you, David.
I’ll swap you: “Rubicon: the Last Years of the Roman Empire,” by Tom Holland. Many parallels. (Cullen Murphy has also done a Roman-empire book, which I haven’t read but was well-reviewed. What a time to be living.)
Ingvar: For living in a country founded by colonial immigrants occupying another peoples land and earning their livings on slavework from another, I find americans very bigot and anti-immigration in their mindset when it comes to people who wants to move to their backyard.
Perhaps we should do like the French do, and herd them into ghettos outside the major cities. (That seems to have resulted in some rather nasty riots within the past few years.)
Or follow the path taken by the Germans, and make it very difficult for them to become German citizens, because they aren’t “true” Germans.
(Incidentally, my mother is a German who moved here from Heidelberg in Baden-Wurttemberg, and I still have relatives there and visit regularly, so I’m quite familiar with the German mindset.)
Ingvar: The american economy is founded and based on immigration, and the economy booms for every new immigrant that arrives.
No, the American economy is based on innovation and the free market system. Throughout our history, immigrants have made serious contributions, but so did native Americans, including Henry Ford I, Walter P. Chrysler, Henry Joy, Thomas Edison and Alfred Sloan.
As for the idea that the American economy “booms” when every new immigrant arrives – it boomed in the 1950s and early 1960s, even though this country seriously restricted immigration in the mid-1920s, and didn’t liberalize the number of immigrants admitted annually until the mid-1960s. Linking American economic success to immigration is far too simplistic.
Ingvar: No, You personally didn’t kill any indians, but it’s part of the culture and the true heritage of the american mindset.
I assume, Ingvar, you are a European. I seem to remember about 60-70 years ago lots of Jews and other “undesirables” were rounded up and systematically killed by Germans, and when the Germans conquered other European countries during that little episode now known as “World War II,” a fair percentage of the local citizenry rather enthusiastically assisted in the effort.
But then, Hitler was only tapping the anti-semitism that had long been part of the European culture and mindset, and still lurks just below the surface of many European countries even today.
Tell me – is genocide therefore part of your true heritage and mindset, as a European? Because using the standards you apply to Americans, it is.
Ingvar: I think that USA will invade Iran and occupy that country, steal their land and seize their oil, and killing some half million arabs on their way, as in Iraq.
Last time I checked, we hadn’t annexed Iraq as a territory, and the revenues from oil sales were being funneled back to Iraq. And if you are using the Lancet studies for the number of Iraqis killed in the war, you may need to do further research. That study has largely been discredited.
Or perhaps should we have followed the policies of France and Russia, which, in violation of the U.N. sanctions, traded with Iraq and gave the money to Saddam, who undoubtedly used it to build another palace. So…it turns out it was the French and the Russians who were “stealing” oil from the Iraqi people.
That’s the better policy, I suppose?
Ingvar: Remember the next time you complain about gas prizes, that if it weren’t for the sacrifice of some million others that you don’t give a shit about, the prices would be even higher.
Uh, no. First, America does not import the majority of the oil it uses from the Middle East. (The figure is about 13-15 percent.)
Second, Europeans depend on Middle Eastern oil, too (more so than Americans, when looked at as a total percentage of oil used), and high oil prices are going to hurt their economies as much as they will hurt the American economy.
Ingvar: The americans lust for oil is payed with blood.
Because cars in Europe run on cow manure and chicken fat, and Europeans never use any plastics, and their homes are all heated with windmills and solar panels.
They have not benefited at all from Middle Eastern oil, and those inconvenient statistics that show automobile use increasing faster in Europe than in America were cooked up by the Bush Administration as part of a dastardly misinformation plot…
johnny ro: Summing up, when we see Mexicans hopping over fence into southern Cali (and into Texas etc), they have history there too.
Unless those Mexicans are at least 180 years old, they don’t have any history regarding Mexico’s ownership of California.
Let’s see, my mother emigrated from Germany in 1960 when she married my father, and HIS family left Germany in the 1700s…guess I should go back to Germany and start demanding all of the benefits native Germans receive, and maybe even a free Porsche or two…
But then, Hitler was only tapping the anti-semitism that had long been part of the European culture and mindset, and still lurks just below the surface of many European countries even today.
Meh…
Wouldn’t say so, living in the Netherlands. At least not in Western Europe. We have radical islamism to complain about now, although personally I believe that 1) The problem is not as big as portrayed by the media 2) The muslims overexaggerate their “victimization” by the same media 3) 1 and 2 tend to reinforce one another.
In Eastern Europe (ironically) racism and anti-semitism are more prevalent, yet it still is just a small group of people that is usually poor and uneducated, much like some rednecks in Southern US states (for instance, as pictured by the Topgear America special). I witnessed it first hand when I was in Cracow with fellow students from Venezuela and a sikhi from Los Angeles. The latter repeatedly got called Osama and was later beat up by some skinheads in Ukraine.
Humans will be humans, so what are you going to do about it…
At a more positive note; pictures of the new small Alfa via TopGear.com
Geeber: “immigrants have made serious contributions, but so did native Americans, including Henry Ford I, Walter P. Chrysler, Henry Joy, Thomas Edison and Alfred Sloan.”
So, Ford and Chrysler et al is really american natives? Born from indian blood? I regard everyone since Columbus as immigrants, as they colonized america, killed off all the indians and stole their land. Lets face it, america is founded and based on immigration. Your economy depends on it.
Geeber: “Tell me – is genocide therefore part of your true heritage and mindset, as a European? Because using the standards you apply to Americans, it is.”
Yes. That’s a part of our culture. And that’s why it is important to hold all the bloodthirsty hawks on a really tight leash. For without a proper leash like democracy, you end up with a George W Bush government, where torture is part of the agenda.
I can’t talk about races here, because it’s not a racial thing as it is a cultural thing. But the fact is that the western culture since the greeks and the invading huns before that, is the most violent and bloodthirsty culture this earth has ever seen. War is the mother of all invention, and this culture has made the western civilazition the must “successful” of all, depending on what you lay in to those words. And the europeans are descendents to that culture, and the americans are the long lost cousins from that family-tree. And as such, the american culture is extremely violent and aggressive.
It’s all about “using the force” as Obi-Wan Kenobi would have put it, as it is really easy to join the dark side, but very very hard to always do the right thing.
Geeber: “…and the revenues from oil sales were being funneled back to Iraq. “
Really? Boy, are you kidding? Who’s being naive now?
And according to Goodwin’s Law, I have now won this discussion through reductio ad hitlerum, as You draw the Nazi card up to this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Ingvar: So, Ford and Chrysler et al is really american natives?
Considering that Henry Ford I was born in Michigan, and Walter P. Chrysler was born in Kansas, and, the last time I checked, those respective states were part of the United States when they were born, and remain so today, I’d have to say “yes.”
Ingvar: Born from indian blood? I regard everyone since Columbus as immigrants, as they colonized america, killed off all the indians and stole their land.
Sorry, but no one – except for you, apparently – considers people who were born in the United States of parents who were legally here to be immigrants.
Please, learn from history before attempting to quote it. The natives were killing each other long before any Europeans set foot on the continent, and were decimated by unintentional exposure to diseases borne by Europeans as much as anything else.
Ingvar: Lets face it, america is founded and based on immigration. Your economy depends on it.
Uh, no, it is founded on innovation and free markets, which attracts a fair number of immigrants.
Ingvar: I can’t talk about races here, because it’s not a racial thing as it is a cultural thing. But the fact is that the western culture since the greeks and the invading huns before that, is the most violent and bloodthirsty culture this earth has ever seen. War is the mother of all invention, and this culture has made the western civilazition the must “successful” of all, depending on what you lay in to those words. And the europeans are descendents to that culture, and the americans are the long lost cousins from that family-tree. And as such, the american culture is extremely violent and aggressive.
Nonsense. Several Native American tribes were extremely warlike, as were several African tribes. The idea that all Native American tribes were living in some sort of pre-Columbian version of a 1960s commune is fantasy concocted by those who either don’t know history, or ignore certain parts to suit their agenda.
You should also read the Old Testament of the Bible to find out what went on the Middle East long before even Rome or Greece were significant nations. It’s pretty gruesome.
When the Spainards first arrived in the New World, they were able to initially ally with other tribes that were oppressed by the dominant tribes (Aztecs, etc.).
Sorry, but blaming all of the world’s woes on western civilization, or claiming that the West is somehow more violent than other cultures, is both simplistic and inaccurate.
Ingvar: Really? Boy, are you kidding? Who’s being naive now?
And you seem to be unfamiliar with how Russia and France were violating the U.N. trade sanctions with Iraq, and were thus padding Saddam’s pockets.
Ingvar: And according to Goodwin’s Law, I have now won this discussion through reductio ad hitlerum, as You draw the Nazi card up to this discussion:
Sorry, but, once again, no.
Reading the entry that you cited for Godwin’s law:
Godwin’s Law is often cited in online discussions as a caution against the use of inflammatory rhetoric or exaggerated comparisons, and is often conflated with fallacious arguments of the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
First, you are the one who basically accused Americans of genocide, and saying it is part of their heritage, so bringing up what Hitler did, and asking whether the same standards can be applied to Europeans, is reasonable. The two deal with the same subject.
Second, that is hardly inflammatory. If anything, basically implying that people living today are still somehow responsible for bear the guilt of what happened well over a century ago is more inflammatory, not to mention fallacioius.
Perhaps we need a new law for people who speciously bring up Godwin’s Law to mask the weaknesses in their own arguments. I’ll call it Ingvar’s law…