That's right, today Chrysler sent out a press release announcing the introduction of its six-speed dual clutch transmission (a la VW's DSG), developed jointly with Getrag. Chrysler reports that it will "provide consumers with a fuel economy improvement and CO2 emissions reduction by 6%." The new cog swapper's going in the Avenger, Sebring and Journey in international markets, initially paired with a 2.0-liter diesel engine. Wait a second… we don't have that 2.0-liter oil burner in the United States. Does "international markets" mean "places that aren't North America?" Why yes, it does! Chrysler's biggest and most important market is not getting the dual clutch transmission from the git-go. But don't kvetch. Were you really considering buying a Sebring anyway? I didn't think so.
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Were you really considering buying a Sebring anyway?
F*ck no! I don’t care what kind of transmission it has in it.
Besides, almost any transmission that Chrysler has had it’s ‘hands’ on is doomed to failure.
Avenger? Sebring? Journey? Unless they’re going to push these things out the door at Tata prices, the total number they’ll sell in ‘international markets’ won’t come close to recouping the cost of engineering the transmission installation.
Chrysler’s mastering the art of shipping new models that are worse than the ones they replace, which when you’re dealing with something as anonymous as the previous Sebring, et al. that takes some real talent.
All a DSG from Chrysler means is a heftier invoice for a rebuild come 60,000 miles. Pass.
@JEM
But you see, with the staggering decline of the US dollar, there will come a time very very soon where the Avenger will sell for LESS in India than a Nano!
I’ll try to add some facts and keep up with the masterfully insightful responses thus far…
The DSG will be rolled out in the USA starting in 2010. Please read the below link if you’d like to learn more, or you can continue to improve upon your cutting edge, doctoral level witty comebacks.
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/auto-manual-transmission.html
A-Rod,
I detect sarcasm….
I have to say I’m impressed after reading the allpar article. 10 bucks says they’ll be dismissed as a bunch of cheerleaders.
Anyone remember Ultradrive?
…keep up with the masterfully insightful responses thus far…
Alex, you not only took the words right out of my mouth, but said it better than I could have.
Hey, why were all so into automotive sterotypes why don’t we just clear the air and say that all Fords roll over, all Toyota’s sludge their engines, all Japanese cars rust, all VW’s have electrical problems? Anyone got some more?
So does anyone here know all the types of automatic transmissions that Chrylser has made since 1990? Does anyone know which one was trouble prone? (“all of them” is not the correct answer). Does anyone know how long the problem lasted? (it wasn’t for the entire production run). Does anyone know what the major cause of the early failures? (it wasn’t the design). I could give you the answers but it would be better to look it up yourself. Allpar is great site, well organized, and has a great search feature. Have fun!
Please TTAC: Have someone do a review of one of these European DSG Chrysler’s whenever they become available.
windswords, The key question I ask is, “How many people do I know who paid to rebuild Chrysler transmissions?” The answer is, “about 6.”
I also know some people whose Honda transmissions bit the dust early. However, Honda paid for those repairs.
Allpar IS a cheerleader site. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong but there’s no obvious date, author or sourcing attributions on the article.
@A-Rod
If the 2004 Dodge Intrepid owned by this person and the 1998 Dodge Intrepid driven by this one’s elders are any indication of the quality of Chrysler transmissions, anyone would be in the right of being at least skpetical of this development.
Both cars, like clockwork, commited automotive seppuku at 63-65k. Both were anally maintained and had their transmission fluids replaced at 60k miles per manufacturers recommendations only to have a complete rebuild due at some 3000 miles after.
I apologize to have to bore readers with this personal anecdote, but any news concerning new transmissions from Chrysler read by this person will be taken with two Intrepids’ weight worth of salt.
Kixstart,
Ditto for Chrysler, which even waived the $100 deductible on the powertrain warranty and paid for room & board if the customer was away from home. Honda’s tack was a little different, they extended the warranty on the tranny’s – but – their warranty was not as long as Chrylser’s 7 year, 70K miles warranty. So the end result might have been that Honda owners ended up with a transmission (but not engine) warranty as long as Chrylser’s.
John,
If you read the Allpar site you will find that a major contributor to tranny problems has been shops putting in the wrong type of fluid. It’s interesting to note that the two tranny’s you refer to had just had their fluid changed and they quickly gave up the ghost, one after the other. That can’t be a coincidence.
If you don’t put the correct fluid in (which is not the same as GM, FORD, Toyota, etc. fluid) it WILL ruin the tranny. By the way, Honda’s are picky about the fluid they use too.
There are thousands of Chrysler transmissions (including the original now infamous Ultradrive) that have many thousands of trouble-free miles on them. Even during the Ultradrive debacle the failure rate was about 17%. The normal premature failure rate of transmissions is nomally around 1-2%. So the failure rate was way too high but the way it was reported at the time you would think everyone of them was going belly up.
I own both a 1999 Chrysler 300M and a 1998 Jeep Cherokee. The 300M has 130K miles on it, the Jeep has 110K on it, both trannies have had zero problems. Both vehicles have had few problems period. They are both daily drivers, both make 300+ mile trips across Texas on a regular basis.
The Allpar site is the one of the premier sources of technical information concerning all things Mopar. You could spend months going through it all.
I think they can have more profit in those markets OR make the car more attractive/palatable for them.
Also, I think the 2.0 diesel engine is VW sourced… I don’t know about the tranny, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was either.
And they may also think the americans are not as “sophisticated” as the europeans.
We get the Sebring here. I don’t like the car, I liked more the cab-forward models (still do). I don’t see what’s the big deal with the car: cheap interior plastic? EVERY car being sold right now has it, brand independent.
I’d rather have a Grand Cherokee (of any year) than a similar Toyota SUV (I really don’t care if the tranny is crap blah blah blah, the Jeep jsut look cool). Of the Japanese I like the Frontier, Montero and Grand Vitara.
What bothers me is that the models they’re rolling out are a bit dull. It’s a shame they replaced the Neon with the Caliber, but if it sells well, it’s ok for me.
The people that has the “correct” and justified answer for this question is working within the walls of Chrysler LLC.
My 1998 BMW Boxer motorcycle had a Getrag trannie.
At 4,000 miles it lost third gear.
It was replaced under warranty by BMW.
Not unusual for Getrag trannies in BMW motorcycles.
Their history is not the best.
Didn’t I read something a few weeks ago that Getrag and Chrysler LLC were having a feud over the new DSG transmission plant and that the plant construction had halted?
I wonder if this means that the VW built unit is being used on the VW built diesel engines, and that’s all she wrote?
Besides, almost any transmission that Chrysler has had it’s ‘hands’ on is doomed to failure.
Really? A904’s and 727’s were legends in durability. Same for the 80’s era three speeds. A604 Ultradrive? Uh, could we forget that one?
golden2husky,
You answered a couple of questions in my earler post:
“So does anyone here know all the types of automatic transmissions that Chrysler has made since 1990? Does anyone know which one was trouble prone?”
The 45RFE 4/5 speed has also been a very reliable tranny.
The truth about the A604:
“The A604 was a revolutionary development, but it suffered from Lee Iaccoca’s desire to rush it into production. It was the first electronically shifted hydraulic automatic transmission that used fuzzy logic to learn to adapt its shifting pattern to match the driver’s habits and tastes, as well as to compensate for internal conditions. No other automaker had attempted to replace the many valves and servos in a transmission with simple solenoids controlled by a computer. What’s more, Chrysler was often not followed by others in their use of a “limp” mode, to take the driver home even in cases of control failure. The limp mode deliberately restricted the driver to second gear so the vehicle would be serviced.
Chrysler reportedly put over a million miles of testing on the A604 before its first use in 1989, which is when they discovered that Dexron fluid was not good enough. However, the company did not make this clear to customers, saying that Dexron was good enough if their own fluid, ATF+3, was not available. Nor did they get the word out to oil change places and corner mechanics. As a result, many, many transmissions were destroyed. Even some dealers apparently told customers they could use Dexron. The result was a terrible reputation for quality – we have been told by one transmission rebuilding establishment that the horrific return/repair rate on their own transmissions fell to normal levels when they switched to ATF+3, and that was around ten years after the A-604 was first introduced!”
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/four-speed-automatics.html
I'm sorry but I really don't care what site says what about any transmission of what anyone built because I don't frankly trust much of what and anything I see nowadays anyways. Many times we find out somebody is covering for someone. Its this simple I worked for a Chrysler dealer I was for many years a certified tech, I'm a certfied master tech for over 15 years and have been a mechanic for over twenty five years BOTTOM LINE! If you don't "know" anyone that has gotten a Dodge or Chrysler trans done then let me say it softly too you (YOU HAVE A VERY SMALL CIRCLE OF FREINDS!!) 604 is a number I will remember to the day I die!! That tranny is still too this day they're nightmare! I used to fight tooth and nail with the idiot reps that would come down and write up a warranty claim! What the customer had to endure is discusting! I am personaly very happy with Chryslers present condition, they did it too themselves! They cut our flat rate times down so much hows a guy to make a living fixing they're screw ups!!!Under warranty no less!!Talk too anyone who has a 2500 Dodge truck with about 72k on it, ya I dear ya and keep in contact with him and see how his anger grows with the truck!! All you have to do if you really want too know whats up is look up the TSB's for any of the trannys that they make!! Put on your seatbelt because you will have litteraly a full BOOK TOO READ!!! And for you people trying to compare a Japanese car to American….don't dare write them down till you actualy work on them! You can't even dare to compare a Subaru to a Ford! Subaru WILL STAND BEHIND THERE PRODUCT!! I've worked for many dealerships over the years between Chrysler and Ford and nowadays I stay with Toyota Honda Subaru. I'll admit that its a little scary going with NIssan but with an American CEO what can you expect (greed first customer satisfaction 30th!)The ease in which a Japanese car comes apart for any service can't be beat. They are the ones that put disc brakes on cars when the US cars wouldn't do it until the car went up a couple options (LS, GS etc…) Why do you think market share has shifted so much? Are you going too sit there and tell me that people now pay as much as 3k more for a japanese car because the car is cheaper (doesn't make any sence). They pay more because they don't want the headaches!! How come you don't hear those stupid commercials anymore like "At Ford quality is job one" Because its a joke!! Nobody beleives it anymore! I bought a Toyota and a Subaru….and why? Because I don't have time to work on my own cars! I want something I can leave alone for more than 15k All my Subaru's lasted over 215k. I actually sold them to people that WANTED THEM!!!!! Any of my Ford vehicles I refused to sell too people I new because as well as I took care of them I didn't want anyone mad at me, and even those that bought them I warned up front loud and clear!! If you really know cars I'll throw a Ford trans number out there that will strike fear AXOD if you have a Sable or Taurus you know that number!! Ya how many times did you meet your trans man!! Steering racks / engine mounts (fluid filled) body mounts. Oh ya gotta love those freeze out plugs eh???? I could litteraly go on for hours with facts that would scare you but this is actually getting me upset from the crap I endured working on these garbage vehicles! BUY HONDA , Toyota and Subaru if you want a higher than average happy result in your purchase, and a few companys that stand behind what they sell!!
windswords: I gotta say I heard all those things you wrote years ago. True many things that you wrote but sorry the facts are a lot different. I worked on these cars and was there for the tragedys. I know all about the storys of Chrysler trying to throw it back on customers about Dextron 3 etc,.The facts though don’t back what we went through all those years. I personaly met and had to “calm down” a woman who was set to launch a lawsuit on Chrysler corp right after her car did the 604 downshift deal.She was bleeding from her head going into the windsheild at about 42mph when she was slammed into her steering wheel and windsheild. If you truly know and mechanics that read these forums out there you know what I’m taking about here…. the 604 then YOU will tell me…yes you will explain to all of us why this happened (I know why and I know what we did too fix it) The reason discusted me and many of my fellow techs. This was inexuseable!What happened to inspection of parts??? An First off the 604 didn’t even exist with Iaccoca…I don’t know where that came from. The technoligy didn’t exist yet. It was thought of just as years earlier antilock brakes and binary and even singular online comunication between computers was thought of. And yes it was the Chrysler New Yorker that got several engineering depts in trouble when Chrysler introduced a trans computer and ABS working together (can’t tell you how I know that but I know all the details personaly what happened with that).I’ve been around a long time in the automotive industry.I get very angry I’m sorry too all because I was a buy American first guy, I really was but in the mid 80’s the guys and myself were starting to look around in discust. We watched Ford Chrysler and GM put out stuff that was just pathetic while the Asian market was going leaps and bounds. I would look at the chinsy computers in Honda’s and they never needed new processors! GM please!! Gotta E-prom was a regular statement at a GM counter. Mass airflow sensors!! Anyone with a Camaro or firebird back then remembers (tap it and it would run better right in front of ya!!) Alternators in GM products??? Might as well keep and extra in the trunk!! Gotta go I’m getting depressed again.
Mu question would be- What do you mean by joint venture gearbox with getrag/? What is the Chrysler`s share? i somehow believe that it was 100% german Getrag built and chrysler made a factory where to stamp it. Am I wrong? Anyone?
Tundraman :
… If you really know cars I’ll throw a Ford trans number out there that will strike fear AXOD if you have a Sable or Taurus you know that number!! Ya how many times did you meet your trans man!! Steering racks / engine mounts (fluid filled) body mounts. Oh ya gotta love those freeze out plugs eh????
I’ve owned three of these cars — a Taurus and two Sables — and never had a transmission problem with any of them. #1 was a 1989 Taurus with the AXOD. It still shifted perfectly when I sold it with 127,000 miles on it. The other two are Sables with the Duratec engine and AX4N automatic (an evolution of the AXOD, beefed up to handle the horsepower and torque of the SHO engines). #2 is a ’99 with 107,000 miles on it and #3 is a ’00 that just rolled past 99,000. Both of them also shift perfectly. The key is to maintain them as the manufacturer recommends, making sure to use the right kind of ATF.