VW has made big bucks in fuel crises past by offering diesel options where others had none. And though Wolfsburg has always charged a premium for its oil-burners, cheap-and-cheerful was the name of the TDI game back when it took an OPEC embargo to make Americans think about efficiency. Well, the 70's are over, man. VW's new Jetta TDI starts at $21,990 for the sedan, and $23,590 for the wagon. Er, SportWagon. That's five large more than a base sedan, and a $4,500 premium for the wagon. And not only are VW charging more for their diesels, they're also hyping non-EPA mileage ratings to claim 38/44 mpg in city and highway driving respectively. If, for some crazy reason, you want an apples-to-apples comparison to any other product on the market, the EPA ratings that everyone else seems to live with rate the Jetta TDI at 29/40 mpg. Factor in the fact that diesel prices have doubled in most markets over the last year, and you have a spin-free idea of how economical VW's TDI offering really is. Though the acolytes of Rudolph Diesel claim that battery replacement costs for hybrids give the TDI an edge, those costs are going down , while diesel prices continue to climb in most areas. The TDI will still serve well in those coastal enclaves where "powered by biodiesel" and grateful dead-affiliated bumper stickers offer TDI owners social status commensurate to the price premiums they paid. Otherwise, this baby has been priced right out of the market.
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Am I missing something? Wasn’t this posted already? It had a bunch of comments… am I traveling through the nexus of the universe?
I wanted a TDI when I bought my 05 Jetta MK V. They wanted $3500 more and 5 points on the interest rate. (about $5k all together) I couldn’t cost justify the car that I would keep for just 5 years.
TUrned out, I dumped my Jetta 2.0 in 30 months and had 70k on her.
Diesel should be our future, but they keep finding was to kill it.
Post munched? Anyhow, I thought it was illegal to promote fuel economy claims on a new car other than the official EPA numbers.
Yes folks! Now you see it, now you don’t! And now you do!
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The boffins are busy trying to “unring that bell.” Meanwhile, Frank rebuilt this post for your dining and dancing pleasure.
To those of you whose comments fell into the black hole, my apologies. I know how that feels.
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I bought my last TDI in 2002. This was pre-Katrina. The Jetta had sat, unloved on the dealer’s lot for 4 months and I picked it up for $17k. Back then there was near zero demand for Diesel cars.
The issue here is not what VW is charging. The issue here is the lack of a real market to put pricing pressure on VW. THEY HAVE NO COMPETITION in this market space. Post-Katrina, as fuel costs have risen and demand for efficient cars has surged back into the consumers’ mind, VW has sold every TDI they have shipped to the USA as soon as it landed on the lot, frequently before it lands!
If consumers had a choice of Diesel cars from a variety of manufacturers then I’d expect you could still buy a VW TDI for under $20k. Instead, it is a single-vendor market and they can charge any price they damn well please.
Instead of continually flaming on Diesel, and VW, perhaps TTAC should be encouraging a more open market for the technology. It would be interesting to read about the Truth of the pricing market for Diesel cars where they represent near 50% of the market and just about every car offered has the option of Diesel as the powerplant? Wouldn’t that be a better, more informative, and useful Truth About Cars instead of all this “Diesel Sucks” “VW Sucks” “Diesel Costs X more than Gasoline so it sucks” stuff you guys keep pumping out week after week?
By the way, if you can drive a car with three pedals you can easily average 50 MPG in a TDI. 29?? I’ve never seen anything less than mid-40s MPG in my Jetta – and that was going 80 MPH into a 45 MPH headwind all day long.
I wont even start to go on about the alternative fuel possibilities open to Diesel drivers, some of which cost significantly less than petroleum.
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
The “edit comment” button seems to be broken. I meant to say:
“POST-KATRINA they have sold every TDI they have shipped to the USA as soon as it landed on the lot, frequently before it lands!”
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
chuckgoolsbee: Instead of continually flaming on Diesel, and VW, perhaps TTAC should be encouraging a more open market for the technology.
Chuck, as a longtime poster here, I respect your opinions, and understand your love for diesels. I was a diesel fan going way back. But I’ve seen the changes coming for some time that would tilt the economics of diesels to make their purchase and operation less favorable. Obviously, your personal situation of home-brewing biodiesel is the exception, and not the norm. Most folks just aren’t willing to make that part of their lives.
There is no question that the European boom in diesels has peaked and diesel’s share is coming down. The study this posting is based on makes that very clear: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/study-diesels-best-days-behind-it/
Lots of Europeans bought more expensive diesels without running the hard numbers; it was a fad, like the American SUV fad. But unless you drive a high number of miles per year, it doesn’t pencil out in Germany, or in the US.
It’s great to offer alternatives, but the reason we at TTAC rag on about diesels is that we like to expose fads that have no economic basis. That’s part of the mission here. If folks want their diesels, help yourselves, but many of them will be paying extra for the privelage.
More diesels are coming to the US market,so the choices will be there. If the sales will follow is a very open question. Time will tell.
When I Google “diesel” and “cancer” I get more than 600k hits starting with a press release by “Environmental Defense” headed “DIESEL’S CANCER RISK DWARFS ALL OTHER AIR TOXICS” claimed to be based on EPA data.
Is this bs?
Do modern exhaust control systems on diesel cars eliminate/minimize this problem?
Is there an authoritative position on the issue?
And now for the good news- I thank VW for doing what it can to keep the residual values high for my used TDIs!
Your story lacks critical details. What’s the trim level of the TDI: S, SE, or top-of-the-line? VW’s site doesn’t give me that information yet. It’s not fair to compare the cheapest “S” gasser to a TDI of higher spec, is it? Yes, it’s unfortunate if VW forces bargain hunters to buy Jetta TDIs loaded with options they don’t want, but most automakers play this game.
Maybe the New Jetta TDI doesn’t make economic sense. But show me a new car that does, compared to a gently used equivalent. The Jetta TDI price just about matches what I paid for my 2002 Golf TDI. That car is still worth over 50% of the new price, making it the best automotive investment I’ve ever made.
When put in perspective (and I’m only speaking to the SportWagen version here) VW is putting the sticker of a tarted-up TDI near $30K. Steep for a Jetta yes. But the closest comparo it could draw is to it’s cousin (once removed), the Audi A4 Avant. Plug a TDI into that sled, and you’re easily chomping at 4 stacks of high society (one for each ring?) for all wheel drive and… um… yeah that’s about it.
Keeping in mind the Swagen has more interior space in virutally every dimension than the A4, and fuel economy to trump anything close to it in the price range… it’s all a matter of how you look at it.
The fork in it is the exorbitantly escalating price of diesel, which is effectively Big Oil and the Feds dangling the carrot of improved fuel economy further and further away on a longer stick.
But hey, it exists, and it’s under $40K and it’s got a boot or hatch to boot, so it trumps the Volt, and does so without all the hoo-hah fireworks.
Obviously, your personal situation of home-brewing biodiesel is the exception, and not the norm. Most folks just aren’t willing to make that part of their lives.
That’s why I didn’t bring it up. It sure is nice having that option though. I haven’t bought a drop from a pump since it passed $4. Can’t do that with a Prius!
It’s great to offer alternatives, but the reason we at TTAC rag on about diesels is that we like to expose fads that have no economic basis.
A “fad” is something that is going on in large numbers for no reason other than fashion or some other collective insanity. The market penetration of Diesel cars in the USA is measured in single-digit percentages. LOW single digits. In fact, that percentage likely starts with a decimal point. I’d HARDLY call Diesel powered automobiles a “fad” in any way, shape, or form.
There is no way to gauge the market potential since no car maker since the 80s has offered much to the American market besides VW. Like RF, I lived in the UK for a while in the 90s, and was dealing with $4-a-gallon fuel 10 years before it became a reality in the USA. I bought a USED 1.9L Volvo 440TD and it served our family well. Pulling over 45 miles per US gallon (I was paid in US$, bought fuel in Liters, by the £…. I got very good at running conversions and exchange rates in my head!) I’ve never understood this “Diesel cost penalty” people talk about. I’ve never paid MORE for a Diesel car than I would have for a gasser, and none of my oil burners have ever done less than 40 MPG on average, with most of them beating that by a wide margin. Half the cars I’ve owned have been gasoline powered, but not a single one has EVER seen better than 30 MPG or so, and quite a few of them couldn’t manage 20 unless I drove them like a granny. Add to that the overall longevity of a Diesel engine (every one I’ve owned has gone well past 150k, some even 250k) whereas no gasoline engine I’ve owned ever lasted mush past 100k without a rebuild. If I can help it, I’ll never buy another gasoline powered car ever again (unless it is a vintage car, obviously.)
–chuck
http://chuck.goolsbee.org
This is from the main posting of the story over on tdiclub.com. The source of the info is VW, they claim:
“The TDI model will be the equivalent of the SE trim level for gas-powered Jettas. A 2009 Jetta SE 2.5L manual sedan starts at $19,990, which tells us that the high-tech, 50-state-compliant clean diesel engine is worth about a $2,000 premium.”
“And now you know the rest of the story…”
There are several inaccuracies in your story. First, you claim that the TDi jetta sedan costs $5k more than the gas counterpart, and $4.5k more than the gas wagon. The TDi jetta has the same option level as a SE gas model. The actual price differences are $2140 for the sedan and $2241 for the wagon, comparing a SE gasser to the TDi. This information was plainly available on the VW website.
Calculating the cost of ownership, including current fuel costs where I live (Arizona), the TDi Jetta breaks even with the gasser after about 60k miles, assuming the VW independent testing data for fuel economy is correct. With the EPA numbers, it’s more like 120k miles. Previous TDi models (and most diesels for that matter) have provided VASTLY better mileage than EPA testing predicts in real world usage.
A TDi jetta pays for itself over its gas counterpart easily during its service life. If it does return the EPA numbers, the TDi owner will end up $300 ahead after 150k miles. If the independent VW testing numbers are correct, the TDi owner will end up $3000 ahead.
These are very simple conclusions to reach. They took me 10 minutes, a calculator, and a rudimentary knowledge of math. I assume the only way you could have possibly come to the conclusions you did is by writing the article first, and trying to fit the “facts” in later.
“Previous TDi models (and most diesels for that matter) have provided VASTLY better mileage than EPA testing predicts in real world usage.”
This seems to be a conclusion supported by a group of self selected TDI buyers who seem to be largely composed of people with long highway commutes that play to the diesels strengths.
Edmunds did a 2 year long term test of a TDI beetle covering 32000 miles. Result:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/44033/page024.html
Average Fuel Economy: 36.5 mpg
EPA numbers 34/43. (41/48 old style)So it hardly looks like the real world scored VASTLY better than EPA, it actually looks VASTLY worse than old EPA and close to new EPA city.
Interesting how a car the Oil-heads repeatedly claim never goes below mid forties in MPG regardless how it is driven. Delivers a mid thirties average when driven for 2 years by a variety of people.
BTW for comparison, Edmunds want to put 100 000 on their long term Prius. So far they have beat 40 000 out of it with a average fuel economy of 41.4 mpg.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=101393/pageNumber=8
I love Edmunds because they drive cars as hard as I would and their long term fuel economy numbers are as real as it gets, not self selecting hyper miling oil/hybrid proponents rose colored impressions.
Hmmm, no mention of the fact that the Jetta TDI will have either a 6 speed manual or a 6 speed DSG. VW is limiting the 2.5 to a 5 speed manual or 5 speed automatic. That right there is a good reason to buy a TDI. VW of Canada expects 75% of the Jetta wagons sold in Canada to be TDIs. Diesel in Southern Ontario right now is about $1.40 to $1.45 per litre, while gas is about $1.30 to $1.35. Diesel still wins when you factor in fuel economy between the thirsty 2.5 and the TDI. Transport Canada has the 2009 Jetta TDI rated at something like 6.7 city and 4.8 highway, which is pretty good. In my opinion, the new EPA numbers are inaccurate for diesels. I expect the Jetta TDI to do much better than the EPA suggests, especially on the highway.
Like Chuck, I get annoyed with the lack of education about passenger car diesels. After driving VW diesels for the past 10 years, there’s no way I’d buy another gas powered vehicle. I recently came back from a trip that I averaged about 52-53 MPG on, and half of it was with the A/C on. It’s true that hybrids do better in the city, but for highway driving, nothing is more efficient than a diesel engine. I only stopped to top off my tank twice in 1400 miles. I could have continued driving and only stopped to fill up once, but I topped off in New York before and after I crossed the US border. Try driving 1400 miles in a non-hybrid gas powered vehicle on about 26 gallons of fuel.
I also expect VW wagons will be mostly TDI for the simple reason they currently have close to a monopoly on passenger Diesels. It is almost the only reason to get a VW IMO.
I just want an efficient 4cyl gasser. I drive under 6000 miles/year.
So I will be looking at much less expensive Honda fit or similar most likely (depends when something major goes on my current ride). The price difference between Hybrids or Diesels and a Honda Fit means the premium would never be made up in fuel savings.
The TDI wagon is a good choice for those who think they need a SUV. Lots of cargo room and economy.
Though the acolytes of Rudolph Diesel claim that battery replacement costs for hybrids give the TDI an edge
And since the batteries in the Prius are clearly lasting the life of the car in all but a trivial fraction of cases, those Diesel acolytes are, how you say, lying?
You cannot single out VW for charging a premium for diesel engines. Sure, short of an E320 Bluetec, there are no other new passenger car diesels besides VW. However, Benz and the Big 2.8 all charge varying (thousands of $) premiums for diesels.
I have not given a circumspect consideration to the cost benefit of a VW diesel, but I did compare a 4.7L V8 Grand Cherokee to a 3.0L CRD Grand Cherokee. My findings? With the premium of diesel fuel over good old 85 octane combined with the $1,800 of the diesel engine option, plan on spending 15 years with that rig before you see it saving you money.
I recently came back from a trip that I averaged about 52-53 MPG on, and half of it was with the A/C on. It’s true that hybrids do better in the city, but for highway driving, nothing is more efficient than a diesel engine.
I do better than that on the highway in my Prius, with the A/C on. And it’s bigger, too.