In today's Wall Street Journal, Joseph White proposes Three Vehicles Detroit Should Build. Y1) a seven-passenger vehicle that gets 30mpg highway, 2) a midsize sedan that gets 40mpg highway that doesn't cost much more than a Malibu or Camry, and 3) a pickup truck large enough to do real work and comes close to 30mpg highway. Worthy goals, indeed. But, Mr. White, may we suggest looking at what the competition already has on the market: 1) no current US market seven passenger gas-powered vehicle gets close to 30mpg highway. [Note: such vehicles exist overseas – assuming you don't look like the humans in WALL-E] 2) The Toyota Prius is the only midsize car that gets 40+ mpg on the highway, never mind that the Cobalt XFE can't hit that number on the side of a barn despite its stick, and 3) if someone builds it (a compact diesel pickup), will they come? What of high diesel prices and competition? And what if ALL of The Big 2.8 builds these self-same vehicles? Anyway, the D2.8 have enough to worry about just trying to survive the next year, much less leapfrogging the competition in the fuel economy department. Of course, there's always the option of installing much smaller engines and asking customers to put up with 0 – 60 times up to 20 seconds, just like in the 1970's.
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That’s strange. I never thought of the Prius as a midsize car. I think it’s considered to be a compact, just like the Cobalt XFE, which isn’t a hybrid, but an ICE. Now…making a Cobalt a hybrid would be a good move.
I’m sure most people who read this site will agree with me that the “why don’t they just…” stories from the mainstream press and politicians are getting very tiresome.
It is disturbing the percentage of people who think that automakers are sitting on some technology to make super efficient cars, but are just refusing to do it. Most of these stories being with “Why doesn’t Detroit just..”
These also seem to be the same people who think technological breakthroughs happen weekly, and that it takes less than a year to design and manufacture a new car. The group probably also overlaps with those who think Tesla is delivering cars to normal customers.
Brent, the Prius (gen II, 2004-2008) car IS a mid-sized car where it counts, and as measured by the EPA for categorization. Inside. Go sit in one. Assuming you can find one at a dealer, that is. Don’t forget to jump in the back seat too.
Plenty of room for my Newfoundland dog in the back seat. Even with a full barrier from floor to ceiling. We don’t fold down the back seat for her; we cover the seat.
It is a comfortable 4-(human) passenger vehicle, can seat 5 if folks are not 200+ pounds each/wide.
16 cubic foot trunk area (and folding rear seat, too).
My Prius says 52.3 mpg on the meter right now, down in the parking lot. Last tankfull finished up at 48.1 mpg (simply because I ended up putting 1/2 tank – 5.5 gallons – of E10 fuel in it). Yep, a 5% solution of ethanol = 6% FEWER mpg’s.
May as well take my money out of my wallet and burn it. I try very hard to not buy E10!
Two things.
1. Why are you guys referring to the “Detroit Big 2.8”? I thought it was the Big 2.5. When did Chrysler get the extra 0.3?
2. WALL-E was grossly overrated, as is every Pixar movie post Finding Nemo. Am I the only one happy to see Wanted open so strongly? Sorry for going OT, but I just wanted to throw that out there…
Menno, I stand corrected. Thanks for the info — by visiting Wikipedia, I was able to verify what you posted. This is surprising to me, however. I just kind of assumed that the EPA (or whoever it is that does this) categorized car sizes according to their outside dimensions, not the room inside. But, evidently, the 2009 Prius is increasing in size, so this is probably becoming a moot point.
They’d probably price a hybrid Cobalt right out of the market a la Tahoe Hybrid.
People won’t pay $15k for a Cobalt… why would they pay $25k for a hybrid Cobalt?
Chev should just buckle down on the Volt moonshot, keep the Malibu fresh, clue in on updating the Impala, and get the Camaro to market yesterday.
They have the talent. They just need the fire under their asses.
Hi Brent. I think the 2009 Prius (which will be announced at the Detroit auto show in January) – and may well therefore be a 2010 car, since if it goes on sale after January 1, it can be the “following” year-model (bizarre as that sounds) – will only be about 4″ longer than Gen II.
I suspect other mid-sized cars will start to reverse direction compared to “usual” and start getting smaller in about 3 to 5 years (3 years for the Asian companies which are more flexible, 5 years for Detroit – assuming there are any Detroit auto makers in 5 years).
BTW, most people have the same misconception about the Prius as yourself, and people are dumbstruck to see a Newfoundland get out of the back of ours… it’s quite funny to see their faces. “No we don’t need an SUV to carry her, in fact, she has as much room in the back as she would if we had a Chevrolet Tahoe, and this way she can jump in and out without aid of steps” is what I say to folks who stop and ask.
@ferrarimanf355: Cerberus owns 80.1% of Chrysler, Daimler has 19.9%, hence the “2.801”.
hmmmmmm
point 1 and 2 would be possible to do within 2 years – if not sooner…
how about getting some over seas cars certified to north american safety standards and then start importing…
one could make a fairly long list of 7 passenger vehicles that get 30 mpg and 4-5 adult passenger sedans that get over 40 mpg overseas…
AND, these are rather nice vehicles… – given current pricing trends, there’s no reason that nicely equipped ones could be sold at 25k with base models near 20-22k
Dear Detroit,
What you really need to do is sell a midsize car that is a diesel hybrid plug in, made out of space age materials that can lap the ‘Ring faster than a 911 Turbo, seat 7 passengers in comfort, has a bed out back that can haul 1,200 lbs, and can tow at least a 8,000 lb trailer. Also it needs to get like a million miles per gallon (of waste vegetable oil) and I should be able to buy it at Sam’s Club for $7,999.
Yours truly,
The Mainstream Press (your welcome)
If by Detroit needing horse medicine you mean taken out back and shot, I’m game.
Current Prius is a “small mid size” (basically the same size as 2009 Corolla), new Prius will be a “normal mid size” but still smaller than the “large mid size” Camry.
1. Buick Enclave got 26 MPG @ 65 MPH on the highway (see Edmunds). 2009 DI engine should get 1 MPG more. Diesel should easily get 30 MPG, but will people pay more for diesel.
2. Cobalt XFE (although hard to find) gets better mileage than Corolla, so why not call Toyota out on the carpet too. If GM builds Cobalts with the 1.4 turbo, will people buy them or think they are underpowered?
3. To make a truck that gets 30 MPG, it will have to be smaller, lighter, less power. Will anyone buy it after years of conditioning with bigger is better?
Richard Chen :
I thought Cerberus owned 100 percent of Chrysler, that Daimler couldn’t unload them fast enough.
SpeedJebus :
I totally agree with you on GM having the talent. Hell, look at the Cadillac CTS. If it wasn’t for the bean counters, the greedy UAW leaders giving unions a bad name, and management’s occasional brain farts, they’d be okay.
1) no current US market seven passenger gas-powered vehicle gets close to 30mpg highway.
The (Ford) Mazda5 was originally configured for 7, though for the US they toned it down to just 6, for marketing reasons. 28-29 on the EPA rankings, which means in the right hands 30 is no problem. And that’s without any fancy tricks or diesel engine…just 87 octane.
Using less fuel is quite simple — drive a smaller car with a smaller engine, and drive it less often. If you want a 40 mpg midsized sedan, you had better buy a hybrid, because that’s your only option.
There is a third alternative, which would involve stripping all of the weight gains of the past twenty years out of cars. But since that weight is the result of extra safety equipment (airbags, side impact protection, etc.) and conveniences that we like (air conditioning and power steering/brakes/windows/door locks/everythingelse), those weight reductions don’t seem likely.
“1) no current US market seven passenger gas-powered vehicle gets close to 30mpg highway.”
Note the term “current US market”.
Go back to the *1984* US market, and you will find my 1984 Volvo 245 Diesel station wagon. EPA ratings: 35 city/41 highway. Seats seven, tows 3300lb.
Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The cars that *should* be made have *already been* made.
@ash78: Mazda claimed that the 7th seat was deleted due to DOT non-compliance. I’m inclined to believe they’re correct – the seat cushion flips out from the driver’s side 2nd row underseat storage bin and rests on the inside ledges of the bucket seats. There’s no clamp or latch to prevent the seat from flapping around in case of an accident, and presumably the expected 30K NA sales was not worth the re-engineering effort. So, no 7th seat, a feature I wish my 5 had. Hopefully they’ll eventually engineer a compliant little seat such as the one in the current Toyota Highlander. You’ll still need trio of skinny asses to fit 3 across in 69″ width.
I’ve seen 31-32mpg on a slow highway run with the 4AT but usually don’t get anywhere quite as good in everyday driving. Mazda has announced weight reduction and DI for upcoming vehicles, so hopefully we’ll see the Mazda5 hit this benchmark the next go-around.
SkiD666 :
June 30th, 2008 at 9:56 am
2. Cobalt XFE (although hard to find) gets better mileage than Corolla
No it doesn’t.
2008 Cobalt XFE (XFE is manual trans only): 25 city, 36 highway, 29 combined
2008 Corolla with a manual: 28 city, 37 highway, 31 combined
2008 Corolla with an automatic: 26 city, 35 highway, 29 combined
2009 Corolla 1.8L with a manual: 26 city, 35 highway, 30 combined
2009 Corolla 1.8L with an automatic: 27 city, 35 highway, 30 combined
(2009 Cobalt XFE is not at fueleconomy.gov yet)
Until somebody with a background in mechanical or electrical engineering with experience in car design/development starts writing for the mainstream press, all we will ever have are these “why don’t they just” articles, a CAFE standard of 50 mpg won’t be questioned, and every car will be expected to have every possible safety feature that might save one life per year.
However, if people were able to accept high 0-60 times and low max speeds in a work truck, 30 mpg hwy would be very doable through low power engines combined with high final gear ratios and six speed transmissions.
What type of mileage would a 120 hp, 200 ft-lb engine get today? Those are the approximate ratings for the 235, inline 6, in my 58 Chevy that was sold and used as a work truck. It can haul 1 ton and tow close to 2 tons. With only a 3 speed transmission, top speed isn’t much nor is acceleration, but with a higher final gear ratio (common modification for these trucks) and more gears, it could easily run at 75 mph and accelerate adequately. More to the point, this same engine was used across Chevy’s truck line up, including busses, 2-ton flat beds, dump trucks, etc. with four speed transmissions and an even shorter final gear ratio. People just aren’t willing to accpet that kind of truck, just like they aren’t willing to accept a 60 hp car that gets 40+ mpg without a hybrid drive train, yet. Eventually, I suppose people will wake up to the reallity that they don’t need to burn rubber in their F150 and that trucks are essentially work vehicles not race cars.
@SherbornSean
Dear Detroit,
What you really need to do is sell a midsize car that is a diesel hybrid plug in, made out of space age materials that can lap the ‘Ring faster than a 911 Turbo, seat 7 passengers in comfort, has a bed out back that can haul 1,200 lbs, and can tow at least a 8,000 lb trailer. Also it needs to get like a million miles per gallon (of waste vegetable oil) and I should be able to buy it at Sam’s Club for $7,999.
Yours truly,
The Mainstream Press (your welcome)
This sounds like exactly what I need. Assuming it will be a convertible (prefer a power hard top that opens and closes in under 2sec and doesn’t eat into the cargo space at all when down), and I need at least 12″ of ground clearance as well.
TIA
Ford is undoubtedly in the best position to handle all of these:
1.) Increase the wheelbase (and length) of the Escape Hybrid and add a third row. Done.
2.) The Fusion Hybrid (name sounds redundant) will probably come close, if they can keep the price within Malibu/Camry range. Done.
3.) Give the Ranger a redesign (badly needed anyway), bump up the size, drop a 2.4 L turbodiesel in there. Done. Add hybrid goodness, and you could push the MPGs up to high-30s city/highway and still do “real work.”
@eggsalad about a 1984 Volvo 245 Diesel station wagon. EPA ratings: 35 city/41 highway if that is from the 1984 sticker the new rating for that vehicle would be 30 city/37 highway.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculator.html will show you the conversion
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml will explain the changes.
You can’t pull an old MPG rating into a discussion about what car manufactures should do (in the future) without doing the conversion.
SherbornSean :
Dear Detroit,
What you really need to do is sell a midsize car that is a diesel hybrid plug in, made out of space age materials that can lap the ‘Ring faster than a 911 Turbo, seat 7 passengers in comfort, has a bed out back that can haul 1,200 lbs, and can tow at least a 8,000 lb trailer. Also it needs to get like a million miles per gallon (of waste vegetable oil) and I should be able to buy it at Sam’s Club for $7,999.
For some reason, I picture the result looking like the car Homer Simpson designed for his auto executive brother.
The Toyota RAV4 can carry 7 people and is already pretty close to the 30 MPG target.
Just make it hybrid and you have a pretty nice solution…
Boy, if Chevy could get on the ball and make a Malibu Maxx Hybrid, they’d sell a bunch of them.
Never Mind.
For some reason, I picture the result looking like the car Homer Simpson designed for his auto executive brother.
That car was cool, giant fins and huge glass dome top. Homer is the man. And if it does all those things I’ll even sport for a Sam’s Club card so I can pick one up tomorrow for $8000. I want to have a variable ride height for no additional cost.
While we are defying physics why dont they just come up with a car that is like the Tardus on Dr Who, exterior size and performance of a Cayman with the interior volume of a 4 bedroom house, time travel can be optional.
@dhanson865 :
Ok, so let’s call it 30 city/37 highway, by modern calculations. So what? Find me a modern 7-seater that even gets 30/37, and we’ll talk.
The only thing a cobalt should be made into is a metal cube about 2 feet on a side. If you’ve ever driven one or ridden one, you will know why.
small engines with turbochargers, direct injection and variable valve timing.
Look at the Tiguan (I know, its a bimbo box but the concept is there).
I agree you can’t legislate or “executive” mandate” better mpg’s. However:
from “The Feasible File”
aluminum frames. lighter. btw Raise the USA’s level of aluminum-can recycling to Sweden’s before you reply “too expensive”. In other words, DOUBLE IT!
Smart guys and gals, please be advancing the art of assembly line aluminum welding, which I understand, is trickier than for steel.
iirc the Honda Insight and the Corvette have some aluminum frame parts. There’s an expensive Euro-only Audi “economy” car that’s all aluminum, iirc the A2 or A3. you, dear reader, can fill us in on some other aluminum cars probably.
aerodynamics. COME ON! The Insight is slick! the Audi TT is ick! google “Visser” and “Clarkson University” save the slow-reacting trucking industry a FORTUNE in fuel savings from aerodynamic drag reduction. There’s a 6-passenger, executive, slightly “stretch”, autobahn-friendly Mercedes sedan with a smooth belly-pan. Its co-efficient of drag makes it sleeker [for its size] than a NASCAR car of yesteryear.
Form doesn’t follow function for you art critics, hunh?
How darn expensive is a BELLYPAN to manufacture? If your EXISTENCE depends on it?
The function of toolbox, pet-carrier, whatever could be integrated into Phil Knox’s aerodynamic pickup truck cap. add a bellypan, and the fuel savings at highway speed are greater than the sum of the parts. google Knox aerodynamic Toyota T-100. WHERE ARE THE MANUFACTURERS MAKING THIS STANDARD? or else, Why can’t you buy these mods aftermarket at Pep Boys? Is this rocket science?
It IS science. YES! But the science has been done. The manufacturing IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!
The principles apply to bigger trucks, if they ever go faster than 25 mph. NO. KEEP THINKING ABOUT THIS. where are the manufacturers on this?
COME ON! the beauty is in the slipstream. Don’t go be dragging aero drag for some stale reason!