J.D. Power’s latest Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) covers the relevant vehicles' third year of operation. [OEMs didn't want to pay for the fifth year study; by then the design is either out of production or almost out of production, so there's nothing they can really do with the results. Also, by then the warranty has expired, so they're not paying the costs of those repairs.] Once again, much media attention is paid to which brands did better this year (Saab), and which did worse (Buick). Once again, the public gets misleading brand scores rather than model-level results. (Brand averages can be heavily influenced by a single bad design, the introduction of a new design, or the lack thereof.) And then there’s the little matter of what counts as a “problem” in J.D.'s book. Apparently, it’s anything the survey respondent reports as a problem, rather than a manufacturer-related shortcoming. The VDS’ five most commonly reported problems include brake noise (get them serviced), pulling to one side (get your car aligned), and excessive window fogging. Window fogging? Maybe by the time the third year rolls around it’s time for customers to grab the glass cleaner.
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Window fogging?? No one knows how to operate the defoggers, front and/or rear? Oh, I’m sorry, you’re on the phone.
I’m thoroughly perplexed by the window fogging.
I don’t think anyone in 8,000+ repair reports has ever reported this issue on the survey I conduct at TrueDelta.com. But then my survey covers problems that can be fixed by adjusting or replacing a part.
Do you think they’re complaining about outgassing? Do these people ever clean the inside of their windows?
Maybe after three years on junior spilling his sipee cup on the floor the humidity of your vehicle is so high from the get go you are in a permanent fog bank.
A/C on. Vents dial to arrows pointing to windows. Problem solved.
Now if the domestics could keep a nameplate alive longer than five minutes than they could have some equity to advertise when improvements are reported.
I am talking to you, Buick.
Don’t forget about that other “dependability” bugaboo plaguing the manufacturers: wind noise.
This survey is a joke.
210delray,
That’s my suspicion, but it’s just a suspicion.
I was hoping someone here has had this issue, and could clarify…
I wonder how much of Saab’s improvement results from a reliability bump from the Saabaru era.
What we have here is a car being critiqued by those who have little understanding of the device. Most drivers know where key and gas go, and that there is something called “oil” which needs to be changed and costs a lot more than it should.
I’ve filled out these surveys too. It’s a case of fill in the dots, not give an exposition about your new ride.
I’ve seen lots of cars with fogged windows, normally a combination of pressing “recirc” and a trunk leak. Most of these cars are far away from “new”, though.
Let’s not forget brake dust, which my sports-oriented cars make in mass quantity….if I say so, it’s a design defect per JD Power.
Window fogging? I wonder how many folks still don’t know to turn on the A/C with recirculation (GM Speak – MAX AC) even in winter to defog the windows?
Strippo,
My own survey data suggests that Saab’s improvement might be due to 2005 being the third year of the 9-3, which had a fairly rocky start in 2003. But the 9-2X also joined the line that year, so you have a good point. Which one is responsible? I’ll go with both.
Ken,
Recirculation will tend to fog the windows, not de-fog them. Nearly all defoggers automatically turn off recirc and turn on the A/C when the outside temp is over 38 or so.
The windshield in my 2003 Mazda seems to be fogging more easily lately. Might be time to clean it…
I had a severe window fogging issue at 3 months ownership of my 2003 Pontiac Bonneville. Caused by a cracked body seal allowing rain to enter the vehicle. Which would pool in the base of the vehicle, causing the carpet to be soaking wet. Creating severe fogging of the interior window surfaces.
I’m assuming most other window fogging complaints are a little less problematic. Or GM just sucks at making cars.
speedlaw,
I’m surprised brake dust didn’t make the list. Maybe it’s #6. Mercedes has supposedly reformulated the brake pads on its American market cars to reduce this complaint, and I suspect others have as well.
Of course, this is a design spec issue, not a reliability issue. In my own research I prefer to keep these types of issues separate, and focus on the latter.
Kevin Kluttz,
They’re probably on the phone and don’t notice their teenage daughter is getting pregnant back in the back.
Also, certain climates/times of year the fogging is on the outside of the windshield and you need to turn on the wipers.
scientists say, one out of every five Americans lives in a fog.
Thanks, morbo. So at least some of these cases might actually be undiagnosed water leaks. I do receive quite a few reports of water leaks, usually because a sunroof drain tube is disconnected, clogged, or crimped. But sometimes from a more serious problem.
The 2007 GM Lambdas sometimes had hard to fix water leaks.
GM W-bodies had poor defogging abilities (Certain years)
My guess people are too lazy to clean the inside of the windows.
I Can only imagine what is on those survey’s. I used to work in a parts store and it would always amaze me what people where trying to fix, rather than what should be fixed. For Example “my seats stain easily whats the best kind of cleaner for it?” you ask if its leather/cloth, Velour, etc, they point to the parking lot to an early 90’s Ford with garbage bag rear windows, exhaust hanging off, and missing a door handle.
Let me take this conversation to Consumers Report, they are down on BMW & Mercedes for “quality issues”. One of these issues is a thing called I drive. A joy stick that runs everything in the car except making the payment. It is apparently harder to use then buttons so it is called a quality issue. It is really a preference issue. My daughers and Son in laws can make computers talk ( whereas I struggle through this post) the I drive would be a small challenge to them which after they mastered it they wouldn’t look back, just use it. The question is this a quality or a preference issue?
iDrive kills BMW’s score on JD Power’s IQS. Maybe here as well.
I had a severe window fogging issue at 3 months ownership of my 2003 Pontiac Bonneville. Caused by a cracked body seal allowing rain to enter the vehicle. Which would pool in the base of the vehicle, causing the carpet to be soaking wet. Creating severe fogging of the interior window surfaces.
Our Pontiac Grand Prix did the same thing, I had no idea it was built in by GM. The two broken window regulators in the front didn’t help the fogging either, A/C did though. I’ll give GM credit for ONE good thing they know how to build a damn good A/C unit, or at least their supplier does. It was super cold and never recharged for the life of the car.
Toss another vote into the “What are they actually measuring?” pile. “Reliability” information is becoming, well, “less reliable,” or so it seems. Definitely, I see Consumer Reports going down the toilet towards the level that JD Powers has pretty much always been in.
On the other hand, kudos to Michael Karesh and his TrueDelta.com efforts — at least ONE outfit is actually trying to gather and present data clearly enough that it can be used to judge vehicle reliability. Hear, hear!
Let me take this conversation to Consumers Report, they are down on BMW & Mercedes for “quality issues”. One of these issues is a thing called I drive.
iDrive and COMAND’s usability aren’t why they write up BMW and MB, but the tendency for the whole car to glitch quickly and expensively
My daughers and Son in laws can make computers talk ( whereas I struggle through this post) the I drive would be a small challenge to them which after they mastered it they wouldn’t look back, just use it. The question is this a quality or a preference issue
I’ve done five years in support and ten years in network operations. I’ve held multiple certifications in several technology products, some of which are pretty painful…
…and I find iDrive in my boss’ 2008 7-Series to be problematic, especially up-front. It’s a terrible user interface, especially for non-technical people and certainly for a moving vehicle.
Ford’s SYNC is this idea done right; much like a BlackBerry or iPod. BMW’s take on in-car telematics reminds me of the joys of using an IBM S/390.
Actually, this fogging issue is a proper problem.
We get asked to check systems for adequate function all winter long.
If I had to single out a make that engenders more complaints than most, it would be the Honda Accord.
I always thought it was just accumulated water from melted snow contained in the deep rubber floor mats (good for jamming gas pedals too). But that doesn’t explain it and neither does a leaking heater core.
Now, you want to see real fogging? Wait until there’s a film of antifreeze all over the windshield at twenty below zero!
Perhaps they should issue an EFW report, ranking cars by the frequency of foggy windows?
One thing many luxury cars have that should help with this issue: a humidity sensor tied into the automatic climate control. This report has me wondering if the VDS might be a primary reason for these sensors.
I’m a True Delta subscriber, I like the idea.
I just think the sample sizes are way too small to derive valuable information from them at this point. Of course that can be solved with more people answering the survey, but I think its kind of silly to try to derive statistically significant information about, say, the 08 Civic based on 100 cars when they are selling 40,000 a month.
And one other thing I just commented about on my site’s blog: they note a 75% increase in problems reported from the IQS to the VDS, and refer to this as “quality deterioration.”
What they overlook: the VDS covers 300% more time, a year instead of 90 day. So I’m surprised by the small size of the increase.
My suspicion: the very concept of an annual survey is flawed. People forget problems that happened earlier in the year, or figure that if they mention one or two their job is done.
Which is why TrueDelta uses a monthly survey.
I had a severe window fogging issue at 3 months ownership of my 2003 Pontiac Bonneville. Caused by a cracked body seal allowing rain to enter the vehicle. Which would pool in the base of the vehicle, causing the carpet to be soaking wet. Creating severe fogging of the interior window surfaces.
Makes me think of my friends, trying to eek by when the wife has chronic health issues and can’t get on disability, and the husband works at Wal-Mart. They bought an ’05 Monte Carlo, and now the friggin’ roof leaks. At 25,000 miles. But since it’s past 36 months, GM’s response is “Too bad, a**holes!” They have to borrow the neighbors’ garage whenever it rains.
Hey GM: don’t you think having a late-model, low-mileage vehicle of yours out in the wild with such an egregious problem is a rolling billboard telling the world to avoid your company? Just sayin’.
Concerning the JD Power survey, they should weight these complaints by severity. Wheels getting out of alignment is not as serious a problem as, say, the roof leaking.
VDS is designed to give the auto companies info. It apparently does it well enough for them to keep using it.
Obviously they can’t give the details or they lose the paying customers.
I agree that it is pretty usless for the consumer.
I have noted that I see the same trends in VDS, CR and True Delta.
Toyota, Honda-Not perfect but very consistent.
Ford, Hyundia-Rising, keeping watch on them.
GM-Schizophrenic, a few good most mediocre but sub-par, some awful.
CR and True Delta both deal with reliability and track similarly (so far, examples Yaris, Prius and Fusion seem to rank similarly).
VDS also tracks things like NVH, driveability and safety issues that tend to produce better scores for luxury brands (Lexus, Caddy etc.) and crush the scores of brands that are small car centered (Suzuki, Scion etc.).
If you compare with that in mind you will find, I think, that the scores correlate much better with the others.
Bunter
I’ve found that fogging is easily solved by doing one of two things:
1. Change your HVAC from Recirc to fresh air.
2. Turn on the air conditioner.
I’ve never had a window fogging issue with any of my cars since I’ve done that.
Bunter,
The results of all the surveys are similar more than they are different.
But TrueDelta’s process is quicker. Next week I’ll be posting an initial result for the 2009 Murano. It will probably be late October 2009 before CR has a result for that one.
Fogging explained…the inside of a car’s windows fog due to the interior temperature of the car being warmer than the outside. Warm air will carry more moisture than cold air. As a result, the moisture precipitates onto the interior glass – it’s the same as taking a cold drink outside in humid weather.
Contrary to some statements here, the trick is NOT to turn on the Defrost button with warm air and the a/c on…although that will work but takes longer. Rather, the key is to DEHUMIDIFY the interior of the vehicle and thus eliminate fogging. To do so, turn on the regular vent blowers (passenger face), turn the a/c to MAX, and the temp gauge to a comfortable setting. Recirc air dries out the interior air faster. Introducing outside air, while it will dehumidify with the a/c, just adds a slight bit of time to the defog process.
I understand what you’re saying, Ken. But then why do defrosters usually disable the recirc and use outside air?
Does having a respirating human or two inside the car add more humidity to the air than the A/C removes?
Also, the colder the outside air, the less water it can carry.
Actually, JD Power makes all the information at a vehicle level available – but for a price. They’ve learned there’s more money to be made by charging OEMs for access to the data than to give it away to the World. Not only is there a fee to access data about a single manufacturer, but automakers have to pay even more money to cite the JD Power results in their advertisements. If you want all the data for all companies – then that’s an even bigger fee.
Karesh – I do believe that if you can objectively link your results into an effective package that you can sell – you’ll make millions.
Your comment about vehicle drift or uneven tire wear is too simplistic. It is assumed all cars will need some repair – the value lies in identification of problems as a variation from the average car.
For example, let’s say the JD Power results show that a Civic has 2x more incidents of uneven tire wear and vehicle drift than the average vehicle in the segment. The result is has more to do with potentially faulty suspension design/parts quality versus the intelligence of their customers. Of course, the instinctive reaction would be “but Honda shouldn’t have 2x more tire wear than the competition!” So an automaker that discovers these areas of concern can improve to make sure they fix their problems. But I want to be very clear – my example is made up, and I have no clue how the Civic ranks against the segment average.
Actually, I did my own little study on quality not to long ago. Carmax has over 4,000 trade-in’s every week and I took a look at which brands and models had trade-in’s that were over 150k (indicative of a better quality product) vs. those that were shelved for a lowball offer at less than 100k (indicative of an unsatisfactory product.)
There were more than a few surprises…
1) The Honda Accord alone had more trade-in’s with over 150k than all the European makes put together. This despite the fact that the Europeans had more than six times the number of trade-in’s.
2) The percentage of trucks and SUV’s traded in with over 150k was virtually identical for GM, Ford, Toyota and Nissan. All of them had percentages that were between 27% and 30% for that category, while GM and Ford had approximately a 13% to 16% level for cars. Nissan was 19%, Toyota 32% and Honda 34%.
3) Despite the warranty, Kia/Hyundai aren’t even in the running. Hyundai never broke through the five percent barrier while Kia’s list typically didn’t have a single car with over 150k. Over two-thirds of Hyundais and over eighty-five perent of Kias were traded in at less than 100k. Far, far worse than the 35% to 40% average for GM and Ford.
4) Out of the major manufacturers, VW represents by far the greatest disappointment. Less than 3% of their vehicles will typically have over 150k (almost all of them TDI’s) while nearly 80% of their cars are given the heave-ho at less than 100k. VW also had the most ‘announcements’ on a per vehicle basis (engine needs service, transmission needs service, etc.) … they were even worse than Kia, Saab, Suzuki or Land Rover.
5) Finally the Jeep brand apparently has a very high level of durable Cherokees and Grand Cherokees. Over 40% of them had over 150k. The same was true for the Camry, Accord, Corolla, LS400, Explorer and Suburban. The Taurus, PT Cruiser, and Mazda 626 were the worst of the mass produced cars.
If J.D. Power would like to inform me how my findings are any less meritable than their own, they can feel free to contact me at 212-555-1212.
Micheal K-I think we are in agreement. The results are similar if looked at carefully.
BTW, I appreciate your panel and am a member (my cars are not currently being surveyed).
Cheerio,
Bunter
@Ken Elias
Contrary to some statements here, the trick is NOT to turn on the Defrost button with warm air and the a/c on…although that will work but takes longer. Rather, the key is to DEHUMIDIFY the interior of the vehicle and thus eliminate fogging. To do so, turn on the regular vent blowers (passenger face), turn the a/c to MAX, and the temp gauge to a comfortable setting. Recirc air dries out the interior air faster. Introducing outside air, while it will dehumidify with the a/c, just adds a slight bit of time to the defog process.
I don’t understand how recirc air conditioning dries out the car faster; you’re sucking the moist air out of the interior and spitting it right back into it. This is why most cars automatically disable the recirc function when the defroster is turned on.
I’ll tell a story that I related on TrueDelta on this topic:
Back in my college days (early 1990s), my buddy had a nice 1989 Ford Probe, and he whenever he’d travel in wet conditions (mostly rain, I’d guess, or very humid days), he’d have to wipe his inside windshield every 10-15 minutes with a towel. I told him to turn off recirculate – that immediately and completely solved the problem.
So if having the HVAC set to recirc clears out the fog, why were my friend’s windows perpetually foggy when recirc was on, but miraculously clear when recirc was off?
Steven Lang- Your comments are interesting. I suspect that Kia doesn’t do well because the brand hasn’t been sold in the US for that long. Plus I don’t think how somebody’s 1999 Sephia treated them should reflect on the purchase of a new Rondo.
Cars can get better quality in a matter of months, it doesn’t take years.
The number of cars traded in with over 150K does show that cars are a lot more durable now than years ago. Back in the 80s the only cars that would make it that far were Volvo 240s and Mercedes.
Great info Mr. Lang. I’m curious but you didn’t mention Subaru’s, how did they fair according to your study, and if you have model specifics that would be even more awesome.
Back in the 80s the only cars that would make it that far were Volvo 240s and Mercedes.
Your forgot Saab, those pre-GM Saabs lasted for a long time. All the used mid 80’s Saabs me and my brother owned went well over 250,000 miles with one of his up to 1/2 million. Quirky but durable.
I suspect a lot of 1980’s Hondas and Toyotas made it to 150,000 miles. Heck, in my neck of the woods (Riverside, California, sixty miles east of downtown Los Angeles), a 1980’s Honda or Toyota is not that an uncommon sight to this day. Which I believe is amazing, especially considering their market share was like a third or so of what it is today. This might explain why Honda and Toyota (including Acura/Lexus/Scion) have about a 50% share overall of all the cars I see on the road around here. (Note: Not including pickups or SUVs; cars only-I see a lot of Ford and GM models in those categories.)
“I suspect that Kia doesn’t do well because the brand hasn’t been sold in the US for that long.”
13 years… that’s more than long enough.
“Plus I don’t think how somebody’s 1999 Sephia treated them should reflect on the purchase of a new Rondo.”
If they had a bad experience with the Sephia it most definitely will. Would you buy from a manufacturer that took advantage of you? Of course not!
“Cars can get better quality in a matter of months, it doesn’t take years.”
Absolutely untrue. It takes a very long time to develop the components and the manufacturing standards and ethos that make quality possible. If you think that quality can be found in a matter of months, I have some old robots from the Roger Smith era that I can sell you for cheap.
“The number of cars traded in with over 150K does show that cars are a lot more durable now than years ago. Back in the 80s the only cars that would make it that far were Volvo 240s and Mercedes.”
Laughably wrong. GM and Ford’s rear wheel drive cars and truks actually had very good durability to them. In fact, they were the quintessential ‘city car’ in many urban areas during the late 1990’s due to their low repair costs and the cheap gas that was available at that time.
Toyota outperformed Volvo as a whole and was comparable to Mercedes in durability although the MB Diesels were a different breed entirely. Honda was similar to Toyota in quality, Saab’s powertrains could easily last well over 150k… and heck…. even Escorts and K-Cars could easily go over the 150k mark. I think you may be confusing the 1980’s with the mid to late 1970’s.
The only two brands that were horrendous during the 1980’s were Yugo and Sterling. Although Peugeots had an interior quality that were often far worse than any other mass marketed international brand. I should know…. I’ve had five of them.
“Great info Mr. Lang. I’m curious but you didn’t mention Subaru’s, how did they fair according to your study, and if you have model specifics that would be even more awesome.”
Subarus incurred more miles per year than any other brand. I was a bit surprised given that 90+% of them were all-wheel-drive. But Subaru also has an outdoors oriented lifestyle which coincidentally, leads to them also being the most likely to have bike or ski racks on their tops.
Foresters and Legacys were dominant, with the Forester outpacing the Legacy for the newer model years. The few low mileage trade-in’s were older Legacy models (10+ years) which apparently are used by the grey hair set in Florida.
Subaru had fewer vehicles, percentage wise, that were traded in with less than 100k on them than any other brand. Period. Often times the over 150k’s outpaced the under 100k’s by a 2 to 1 margin. Only Lexus and Acura approached that level of owner satisfaction.
I still think we should publish this and revise on a weekly basis. In my estimation, it’s the best way to determine which brands are truly doing well over the long term and which ones are not.
Actually window fogging was a big pain in the a** on my 2001 Passat. It happened much more frequently with that car than the Accord I had before, or the Scion tC I now have – and the whole time I was living in the same place with the same climate.
I, too, dislike JDPower’s method of rating only the brands and not the models.
I agree about the fogging issue. Fresh air defogs/defrosts the windows. Recirculated air simply recirculates humid, moisture-laden air we exhale. In the summer it’s not a problem here in the south since it’s so hot. But cool, damp days exacerbate the problem. You want recirc off, so that fresh air can come in and clear the windows. As someone mentioned earlier, newer model vehicles will turn recirc off when the defroster is selected for this reason. I’ve driven foreign and domestic, and I’ve never had a problem with window fogging.
Why should all issues be weighted equally. I do not think user’s lack of understanding of high tech devices should count as a reported issue. I do not think fogging windows should count either. Who cares if the windows fog as long as the defroster is working. I would bet you eliminate all senseless complaints that most cars would be about equal. I have owned many cars and have never had issues with any car less than 3 years old. This includes back 20 years ago.