GM may have a several thousand disappointed Voltophiles on their hands before this sad saga plays out. Automotive News [sub] reports Dennis Lyle from GM-Volt.com claims over 33k people have joined his unofficial waiting list, expressing a desire buy the electrowundercar when it's "released in 2010." Oh dear. First of all, a 2010 release date is a reality only to those who live in GM Car Czar Bob Lutz' fantasy world. Next, GM's already said they'll build fewer than 40k Volts per year for the first five years, and many of those will be exported. And you know those left stateside will go to GM execs, politicians, celebrities and celebrity politicians. Finally, Lyle's prospective buyers indicated they were willing to pay an average of $31,261 for a vehicle that GM's already said will top the $40k mark (and will lose money on, even at that price). You have to wonder how long the people on this list will put up with GM's gratuitous promises (being charitable) before they finally give up.
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unofficial waiting list
I made reservations at a restaurant the other day and didn’t show up. The car was low on gas, and I didn’t feel like having to get gas. My girlfriend wasn’t in the mood to drive further to pick me up. I’d imagine those people to to be just as fickle.
I’d be impressed by the number of folks on a OFFICIAL list who’d plop down $500 bucks for the privilege of waiting.
” and many of those will be exported”
If that’s true, then thanks GM for really helping the energy independance movement of the good ol’ US of A.
I agree with RayH… without a down payment, the waiting list is pointless. This opinion is not a welcome one over at GM-Volt.com, by the way.
But to have a real waiting list… GM would have to set an actual price and some other details that they probably don’t have right now.
And maybe never will.
However, the list will continue and will continue to grow. There’s nothing quite as rabid dedicated as a GM FanBoy who believesin GM’s vaporware.
Meh. My father-in-law, jeep driver, got on a Smart Car waiting list (for $150.00). He still believes there’s a Smart waiting for him at the dealership.
More importantly, if they did an official list, they would have people with legal claims against them when the Volt vaporizes.
So will Bob Lutz get an excruciatingly apologetic post from TTAC.com if the Volt does release on time? I think he would deserve one by now.
What does he get if the Volt is early? How about a pizza?
I think Toyota should simply buy out the GM-Volt.com website and its waiting list. Wouldn’t that be hilarious?
I dont think we have to worry about the volt being early. If it was even CLOSE to production gm would be talking nonstop about it. Look at the camaro, and thats a regular old gas engine in a 2 door. No pizza for Rick!
More importantly, if they did an official list, they would have people with legal claims against them when the Volt vaporizes.
No, returning the deposit would entirely exempt GM from all liability. If there’s one thing they have, it’s lawyers.
Volt production. Which factory? Is the line being set up? Still far too early? How long does that usually take? Do they have everything or most everything already?
Do they have a tire size, brand, and model picked out? An existing tire?
How about the wheels? How long to get them in production?
Off the shelf parts for suspension and interior?
Does the engine exist?
Are they setup for their inverter production? How about the electric motor? Where’d they get the stuff that is in the test mule?
How long does the crash testing take?
Are there only about ten people in the know about these types of details?
I thought they were having an open and transparent development program? Seems to have gone dark.
Could save a lot of time by retrofitting the E-Flex setup in all the existing vehicles; but that would take away from the “all new” element that the smoke and mirrors Volt is to provide.
Betting the company on a single model. Not enough all battery range(more is better, even more exciting. 80 or 100 miles.). Price is too high.
Toyota is going to nuke them when they release the 2010 Prius with more battery range and a lower price. How will the Volt be better in that situation? Don’t forget; Honda will also have their own Priusvolt out then too.
The only way the Volt could beat out the competition:
All electric model with several different amounts of range to choose from.
A high performance electric model.
The gas/electric models with various amounts of battery range.
Lower price then the FCX(Insight?) Prius.
Looks alone isn’t going to sell the reVolting.
Considering GM’s rep in most people’s minds; Volt is just a boxy, angled Cobalt. It’s not the next best thing when it isn’t. The price is too high Bob. Since this isn’t a performance car, and since it isn’t a luxury car, that leaves this to be an economy car. I’d be buying this car to save money. It’s up front price is not thrifty. No sale with these fuel prices in today’s market and economy.
GM needs to have a meeting either tomorrow morning or the next to discuss how the Volt is competitive to Prius and Honda’s car. Why buy a Volt instead of the competition’s version? What does it offer the others don’t?
A damaged brand with a damaged reputation.
Have yet to see a $100,000 Vette on the streets, Camaro is a no show with a price that is too high(truck margins). Aveo and Cobalt are too dull and boring(nothing special). All the mid size vehicles are straight up rental cars. What a let down it is to end up with one of those.
They are just biding their type, waiting for the end.
Cash burn. How quickly can they spend it? Dead man walking.
Maybe they can work at Toyota for better pay.
The only way the Volt could beat out the competition:
All electric model with several different amounts of range to choose from.
Volt is all-electric. It just has a gasoline-fueled generator for in-transit charging. All the motive force is via electric motor(s). A selection of electric ranges would be the easy part.
A high performance electric model.
Easy to develop once the platform debuts. Not clear it’s needed.
The gas/electric models with various amounts of battery range.
You might get this. There has been some discussion of initial 20 mile electric and 40 mile electric range options.
Lower price then the FCX(Insight?) Prius.
Desirable but not vital for the initial production. In a market our size there will be a market in the tens-of-thousands for an electric car that has extensible driving range, able to be a primary vehicle, at GM’s hinted pricing.
Considering GM’s rep in most people’s minds; Volt is just a boxy, angled Cobalt.
I know it’s difficult for GM antagonists to believe, but GM still sells millions of vehicles every year, many to repeat customers who have a different and more positive view of GM and its better products than you do. People who are interested in the Volt aren’t remotely thinking Cobalt. People who aren’t open-minded enough or too cynical to be interested initially aren’t worth trying to persuade until the car enters the market, allowing owners to speak for it. GM’s customer base is ample enough to drive early customer traction that can then break down perceptual barriers such as yours.
Why buy a Volt instead of the competition’s version? What does it offer the others don’t?
Volt will be a genuine electric car. Prius isn’t. Prius is a mechanical drivetrain petrol-powered car with electric assist. It’s an architectural dead-end for vehicle drive configuration, albeit one that some people are willing to buy for now.
Have yet to see a $100,000 Vette on the streets
It wasn’t promised before September, IIRC first production scheduled for late August.
Camaro is a no show with a price that is too high(truck margins)
Camaro also hasn’t been promised for this summer. I agree it’s taking too long, and yet lots of people remain excited about it.
Aveo and Cobalt are too dull and boring(nothing special).
Presently, nothing in the category is special. Aveo is weak product, yes. Cobalt however is more interesting than any Corolla I’ve been in. More to the point, drive a Cobalt SS or HHR SS with the 2.0L turbo Ecotec and performance suspension, which will change your view of what’s dull.
All the mid size vehicles are straight up rental cars.
Malibu and Aura, as well as the Buick LaCrosse, are well above rental car dynamics and execution, fully credible alternatives to the generic, increasingly bloated, generic Japanese entries.
They are just biding their time, waiting for the end.
GM is certainly in a fix, but there are thousands of people inside who are beavering away on cars, engines, digital systems that evidence the exact opposite of “biding their time.” If GM stabilizes itself and reasserts its credibility and market performance, you and those like you will owe them an apology. If they don’t make it, it’s fair to say that most of the organization will have gone down fighting, though marketing in particular seems to have missed the memo on urgency.
Phil
Ressler: “If they don’t make it, it’s fair to say that most of the organization will have gone down fighting,…”
No, they’re going down shadow boxing.
Volt will be a genuine electric car. Prius isn’t. Prius is a mechanical drivetrain petrol-powered car with electric assist. It’s an architectural dead-end for vehicle drive configuration, albeit one that some people are willing to buy for now.
True. The Prius isn’t saddled with the limitations of an electric car, although it IS an electric car under conditions favorable to being an electric car. It’s a regular car when that’s what’s wanted.
Ressler, listen up… Toyota has built a million of them. That’s over $20 BILLION in sales. This system works. It can be expanded in several dimensions and the new configuration produced in mass quantities, while GM is figuring out how to get Volt #1 out the gate. Every lesson learned in this can be used to develop anything with electricity in the drivetrain.
The Volt – or E-Flex – is not an architecture, it is an idea. GM is developing it with its mouth and then laying tremendous pressure on engineering to live up to whatever fantasy lives in Bob Lutz’ head. The chassis wasn’t ready, the engine wasn’t ready, the battery isn’t ready, the controls aren’t ready. None of it was (except the ICE) designed in any way, shape or form before Lutz started to babble about it. Most of it still isn’t.
And the Volt, like the cavalry in a bad western, will not arrive in time.
Ressler, listen up… Toyota has built a million of them. That’s over $20 BILLION in sales. This system works. It can be expanded in several dimensions and the new configuration produced in mass quantities, while GM is figuring out how to get Volt #1 out the gate. Every lesson learned in this can be used to develop anything with electricity in the drivetrain.
A million cars built over several years is interesting but its not a phenomenon. It’s been good for Toyota and Ford has benefited to a lesser extent from a similar system. I notice pickup trucks still outsell both of them. Yes, HSD is working. It fares less well as configurations expand, and where freeway driving predominates. Until the Prius is electric with gas assist, what’s learned from it might not keep pace with what’s learned from fielding an actual electric car.
The Volt – or E-Flex – is not an architecture, it is an idea.
Wrong. Volt is an electric drivetrain architecture that has implications for what can be changed about platform architectures as well, downstream.
GM is developing it with its mouth and then laying tremendous pressure on engineering to live up to whatever fantasy lives in Bob Lutz’ head.
The historical record is clear that engineers independent of Lutz were interested in or pushing to design and build such a car. Lutz’ push is exactly what you want senior executives to do — outline an ambition and organize people to make it real. Engineers are generally happy to be engaged in “building the unbuildable,” emerging to prove it was in their grasp all along.
The chassis wasn’t ready, the engine wasn’t ready, the battery isn’t ready, the controls aren’t ready. None of it was (except the ICE) designed in any way, shape or form before Lutz started to babble about it. Most of it still isn’t.
When Kennedy announced we were going to the moon, the metallurgy to build the Saturn V rocket didn’t exist. Engineers weren’t sure whether the route to the moon should be a straight shot or a loop. Etc., etc. When emissions standards were set, how-to’s were left to R&D. Airbus committed to the A380 before knowing how they’d solve all the production problems. Same with Boeing on the 787 and its carbon-composites construction. And yet all these initiatives came with time objectives or deadlines. That the chassis (et al) wasn’t ready the day Lutz went public with verbiage about the Volt is irrelevant.
And the Volt, like the cavalry in a bad western, will not arrive in time.
Are you going to eat crow, a felt hat, shoes…what, if Lutz’ deadline is met? Personally, whether Volt arrives in 2010, 11 or 12 is immaterial if reasons for delay are communicated and we know the reasons are sound. This is a new direction for private transportation, and while I’d like to see it in market sooner rather than later, a year or two of leeway is fine by me.
Phil
“Personally, whether Volt arrives in 2010, 11 or 12 is immaterial if reasons for delay are communicated and we know the reasons are sound.”
Are you actually Rick Wagoner? Yeah, there’s a plan and some targets but things might change.
However, it is true that a Volt delay is meaningless… whether or not they communicate it, because this “bold initiative” will have zero impact on GM for the better part of a decade, even if it hits its targets. This is the cavalry arriving too late. Never mind the fact that this bold initiative involves a piddly quantity of cars when it does arrive.
Ressler: “The historical record is clear that engineers independent of Lutz were interested in or pushing to design and build such a car. Lutz’ push is exactly what you want senior executives to do — outline an ambition and organize people to make it real.”
Which, in some organizations works out. Apparently, you have forgotten the egg/face fiasco, entirely of Lutz’ own making, where he stated a goal that could not be met by the program under his personal supervision (his words). Lutz proved, definitively, that he does not have a clue and he’s overcompensating with ego and attitude. Other GM leaders are similarly clueless.
Me: “The Volt is not an architecture…”
Ressler: “Wrong. Volt is an electric drivetrain architecture that has implications for what can be changed about platform architectures as well, downstream.”
Bzzt. An architecture must have something tangible, this is none of that. In spite of their recent yak, GM has no idea how this will work into other vehicles. In particular without a breakthrough in battery performance (new chemistry that’s significantly better), the modest performance goals of the Volt will be extremely difficult to meet with any other vehicle type, especially at speed.
Ressler: “It fares less well as configurations expand, and where freeway driving predominates.”
Where’d you get this bit of misinformation? Made it up?
And, if the Volt is on schedule (if it slides, we’ll clearly communicate why), the Prius beats it by 14 years.
Bzzt. An architecture must have something tangible, this is none of that.
Volt architecture is tangible. All the elements of the car exist in prototype, with the battery selection remaining in competition and question. The car is electric. GM has ample experience with electric cars. The elemental parts aren’t new; the battery simply is left to define the range achievable without running the IC charging engine.
GM has no idea how this will work into other vehicles.
Volt, as an electric car, is incremental precursor to making the architectural principles of the Hy-Wire and Autonomy real in production vehicles over time. Once the Volt drivetrain is market proven in a compact configuration, it becomes relatively easy to package the motive architecture in other vehicle forms as battery capacity improves to handle larger physical loads.
In particular without a breakthrough in battery performance (new chemistry that’s significantly better), the modest performance goals of the Volt will be extremely difficult to meet with any other vehicle type, especially at speed.
Advances in battery chemistry have historically come slowly, but the pace has clearly been accelerating over the last 20 years. You can safely assume battery chemistry will improve within half a decade after Volt introduction to broaden the application of the motive architecture.
And, if the Volt is on schedule (if it slides, we’ll clearly communicate why), the Prius beats it by 14 years.
That would be worth citing if GM brought a parallel hybrid to market 14 years later. That’s not the case. Prius and Volt are apples and oranges. GM, to their detriment, missed a chance to field a stop-gap design to battle Prius head-to-head, like for like. They also missed a chance to capitalize on the initial good will earned by EV-1. Volt is more advanced than Prius, and an opportunity to develop a more productive, imaginative engineering vector of new car development. Prius may have awakened GM, but Volt really looks past that car. Volt is not a “late Prius.” It’s new product thinking, entirely. Prius is not an electric car.
Phil
Ressler: “Volt, as an electric car, is incremental precursor to making the architectural principles of the Hy-Wire and Autonomy real in production vehicles over time. Once the Volt drivetrain is market proven in a compact configuration… ”
What makes you think they’ll be able to make it particularly compact? What makes you think they’ll ever market-prove it? Ten K per year? It is to laugh.
Ressler: “… it becomes relatively easy to package the motive architecture in other vehicle forms as battery capacity improves to handle larger physical loads.”
GM has been through quite a few “architectures” and, so far, nothing has come of it. The Volt owes little to the PNGV or the EV-1 (if they learned or retained anything, why would they be surprised, late last fall, by their aerodynamic problems?). The “marketectures” of the future are Lut eFantasies and nothing more. GM has no commitment to anything.
And look at the size of the battery needed to move this little wedge of a car through the air… Now imagine trying to shove a minivan’s worth of resistance along for 40 miles. Now how big must the battery be? BIG.
Ressler: “That would be worth citing if GM brought a parallel hybrid to market 14 years later. That’s not the case. Prius and Volt are apples and oranges. GM, to their detriment, missed a chance to field a stop-gap design to battle Prius head-to-head, like for like.”
They’re using electricity and gas, mixed, to solve a transportation problem. When the gas engine is shut off, the Prius is a Volt (Toyota will probably want to sue me for that).
The Volt concept has been done on the small scale, already, years ago, in fact. Rav4-EV, or Tau-Zero plus Long-Ranger generator trailer. GM lags everything.
“Advances in battery chemistry have historically come slowly, but the pace has clearly been accelerating over the last 20 years.”
Not so far as I can tell… chemistries on the market today have been known for decades and chemistries that were “yet to come” 10 or more years ago are still “yet to come” today. And the improvement in power density will not knock your socks off in the next ten years. Twenty to thirty per cent improvements are likely – more than that is speculative, at best. Improvements in manufacture are LIKELY but not certain. They could follow the solar cell curve, which have been very slow to evolve either in efficiency or cost.
Ressler: “Prius is not an electric car.”
Part-time, yes, it is. Ditto the Volt.