Or the concept version of it, at least. Honda says what you see here (and what they will show at the Paris auto show) is 90% of what we can expect when they roll out the production version – on sale in the US next spring. While Honda has said it will be the best priced car in the segment (what segment? It’s the Prius and nothing else), many have estimated its price will be below $20,000. Unlike the first generation Insight, which was a 2-seat bicycle, this new one very much follows the Prius layout: 5 passenger, 5 door (that means hatchback), and lots of high-tech gadgets. Making those gadgets optional should help to add high-profit margin items to the sales sheet, as well. While we have no information on engine or mileage, I’d be willing to bet that the all important MPGs will be very impressive. Honda is hoping to sell 100,000 of these in the US per year, and another 100,000 per year worldwide. Something tells me that won’t be a problem at all.
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Honda, a few requests
Please make MPG above 60 for both city & highway.
Please make OTD price under $20k.
Please offer side airbags
Please offer manual tranny for less $$
Thanks :)
Maybe it’ll even be to the Prius what the Accord is to the Camry, i.e. a more engaging car to drive. That’d be nice!
Looks like a Prius with just a hint of Civic.
Only 100K per year? Damn. I predict a waiting list. I was hoping for 200K or more.
The front end of that thing is seriously ugly….a Ford grille, and a Volkswagon/Audi air intake. And what’s up with the pontoons under the front bumper ?….is this a car or a Tri-hull boat ?.
Robstar,
I’d be surprised, if they offer a hybrid in manual transmission. They may have done this in the past, but I think (and I reckon they do, too) that it’s a huge mistake.
The whole “schtick” of hybrids is their mpg and emissions. Therefore, they’ll want as little variation between drivers as possible. Hence, why an auto gearbox will be better. Since the engineers can programme the best timed gear shift for maximum fuel economy, it’ll eliminate a huge potential for customers saying “I got a BETTER fuel economy than the figures suggested!” or “I got a worse fuel economy than the figure suggested!”.
That’s why the VW Bluemotion technology fell flat on its face. Because they only offered it in manual form, customers were complaining about the diferences in fuel economy they were getting.
To this day, I’ve yet to see one publication (independent or otherwise) which got anywhere near the figures VW suggested. Most reports got about 45mpg, which is standard for ANY diesel.
Hey! Captain Picard is missing one of his shuttle-crafts! Finally some real comp for the Borg…er I mean Toyota.
They need to shut up about pricing until the car is actually introduced. Honda started out saying “$18,000” then “$18,500” (OK, no big deal) then it was “about $19,000” now it’s “under $20,000”.
Robstar:
Honda, a few requests
Please make MPG above 60 for both city & highway.
Please make OTD price under $20k.
Please offer side airbags
Please offer manual tranny for less $$
Possibly
Yes
Yes
No way
The LED parking lights are probably just concept tinsel. But..do we still call them parking lights? And, really, what are they for?
“Honda is hoping….”
And they don’t get beat up by this?!!?
No product?
Just hype?
“While we have no information on engine or mileage, I’d be willing to bet that the all important MPGs will be very impressive. ”
Spit in one hand and hope in the other…
Looks like a Pious.
@Robstar:
MPG above 60? Maybe on paper, but probably never in real life.
OTD price of under $20k? Probably not after options, accessories, taxes, and a possible dealer markup.
Side airbags? I’d be surprised if Honda didn’t include them as standard.
Manual tranny? Outlook looks dim. How about a nice CVT with a faux manual mode instead?
That being said, I’m sure AKM’s prediction will be true. The new Insight will be more of a driver’s car than the Prius. It’ll probably be a bigger hit with the tuner crowd as well…
Insight was an electic CRX, this will be a 4 door electric CRX. That high-butt profile is pretty much a requirement for aerodynamic efficiency.
It would not surprise me if they only offer CVT or automatic, but then it would take it out of my car buying matrix, unfortunately :(
Auto is just too boring :(
Not bad at all. It won’t end up in MOMA next to the resident Jaguar E-Type, but its not awful. The sideview mirrors look to be about as useful as the human appendix, although that could change since this is a prototype. Blunozer is probably right about the CVT, for both efficiency and cost reasons (not to mention the fact that Toyota already did the math with the Prius and figured out that it was the optimal transmission for a hybrid)
Will this be a true hybrid, or a mild hybrid like the old Insight?
thalter, you beat me to it.
Honda has not done a full hybrid, correct? As in the car can run on battery alone? I believe all Honda hybrids have been the gas engine with electric boost when needed.
Will be interesting to see how this goes.
For me, I’m not really excited about this. We’ll have to see what it does in production form, but honestly, it looks just like Honda wants a piece of the Prius pie, not like they’ve really changed the game in a meaningful way.
The other hybrids on the market from lower priced to higher (MSRP based):
FCX Insight (sub ~$20k)
Prius (~$22k)
Civic Hybrid (~$23k)
Malibu Hybrid and rebadge (~$24k – really?…for a belt drive?)
Saturn Vue Hybrid (~$25k)
Nissan Altima Hybrid (~$25k)
Ford Escape and rebadge (~$27k)
Camry Hybrid (~$26k)
Highlander Hybrid (~$40k)
Lexus RX400h (~$42k)
Dodge Durango Hybrid and rebadge (~$45k)
Chevy Tahoe Hybrid and rebadge (~$50k)
Lexus GS450h (~$55k)
Cadillac Escalade Hybrid (~$72k)
LS600h (~$105k)
Honda’s philosophy is machine minimum, man maximum – They didn’t like the true complicated parallel systems that Toyota uses. They instead looked to reduce complications and costs by running an assist that provides some power without engine but not a true parallel – they use an ultra capacitor (not flux!) to provide instantaneous power and reduce reliance on batteries – only when capacitor is full does the battery get charged. Strange system but cheaper to make and has promise versus a true parallel system or the Volt GM promises.
Honda has virtually copied the Pruis’ humpback whale roofline, which proves that there’s no patent protection for aerodynamics.
thalter: Will this be a true hybrid, or a mild hybrid like the old Insight?
Depends on how you define hybrid; it comes in many flavors. It uses a refined version of the IMA hybrid drive and 1.3 engine from the Civic hybrid. Technically, it is a true hybrid, because it does deliver (brief) situations of all-EV mode drive. In reality, it’s best called a (strong version) of “mild hybrid”). For more info, see:
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-prius-vs-honda-fit-hybrid/
I predict EPA (Combined) mileage of about 46.
For lack of a better word: Fugly. And unoriginal.
Therefore, they’ll want as little variation between drivers as possible. Hence, why an auto gearbox will be better.
It’ll be a CVT, not an auto. Hybrid powertrains (well, good ones) are all about keeping managing the powertrain to maximum efficiency, and you can’t easily do that with fixed gear ratios.
The Prius’ big trick is decoupling generation from motion: the software decides gear ratio, power source (engine, electric motor) and reclamation. You can decide to go slower or faster, but you get no say in what the car does to accomplish that.
The original Insight was a vastly cooler car.
Does Honda have experience with CVTs? I can’t think of any in their other cars, but then again, I believe the Prius is the only Toyota with a CVT. As far as the price goes, if Honda’s current practices are any indication, individual options will be few, but there will be plenty of trim levels. Perhaps the “VP” trim will be sub-20K.
And while the design is more polarizing than I expected, at the moment it looks like the most attractive design that Honda has put out in quite awhile. I mean, the Accord just left me cold.
“Does Honda have experience with CVTs? ”
Honda has been using CVTs in certain vehicles since at least 1995. The current Civic hybrid uses a CVT and it is optional on the non-US market Jazz (Fit).
The original Insight was a vastly cooler car.
Yes, but it only fit two people, not a lot of cargo and was really, really slow. It’s about as misguided an attempt as the GMT900 hybrids are.
Toyota has the formula: make the car practical, and people will buy it. The Civic is not as practical, the GMT900s aren’t as practical, the Insight really isn’t practical.
Telescoping steering wheel please, a real one, not with an inch of movement.
Then bring it on.
On the other hand, not all of Honda’s CVT experience has been encouraging. I’ve heard that the CVT optional in the 90s Civic HX was disastrously unreliable, and Honda was not so stand-up about dealing with it post-warranty.
I agree, though, that CVT (of one kind or another) is pretty much the only way to go for a really efficient hybrid. (Note that I say “really efficient,” rather than, “fun to drive.”)
(Note that I say “really efficient,” rather than, “fun to drive.”)
CVTs can be fun to drive, in that they could be programmed to stay right in a powertrain’s zone without losing time during a shift, or climbing back to peak power after doing so. Most CVTs aren’t programmed this way, but it’s not that they couldn’t be.
Take any car with a narrow powerband (the old Celica GTS, Mazda RX-8 or any diesel). Now, imagine them equipped with a transmission that kept the engine on perfect boil, rather than dropping out of or climbing past it. There’s some useful fun, there, even if it’s less involved.
KixStart :
September 4th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Looks like a Prius with just a hint of Civic.
Only 100K per year? Damn. I predict a waiting list. I was hoping for 200K or more.
As ugly as the Prius is, any improvement is better! :D
But really, a great thing about another car in the market like the Prius is another UAW killer car. Go Honda!
CVT?
Efficient? Not really and definitely
Not fun. The theory of “keeping it on perfect boil,” is just that. a Theory.
Most “fun” engines don’t have the torque curve overlaying the HP curve. The “Fun,” in my world, is launching on torque and peaking at full song on HP. ICE’s are mostly this way, especially the smaller 4V versions and ESPECIALLY Hondas 4’s.
Maybe there are some that see it this differently? I’ve been weaned on motor sports and that’s the universal philosphyy
Wouldn’t the aero be better if the rear tapered to next to nothing? That would reduce the wake (vacuum) but also increase the length and weight unless you were willing to substantially reduce interior space. So my guess is that they’ve given up some aero to save weight.
The Prius is “technically” a hybrid with a CVT “like” system – but there are no CVT “belts” or “chains” or “cones”.
The Prius’s system acts like CVT (and is pretty much indistinguishable while driving it) but it’s purely done with electric motor/generators working against a planetary gear set (epicyclic gear set, in British English).
Yeah, the Prius is way complex.
I’ve owned two Prius’s and I’ve driven the Civic Hybrid and I’d have a Civic Hybrid (or this new as yet unnamed Honda hybrid). All are good.
At least Honda were smart enough to not dream up some other name – though the rumor wagons were such that they were NOT going to use the Insight name, they’d have been fools not to use it – since there is name recognition, and the original 2 seat Insight actually was “first” on the market (by a few scant weeks, I think) ahead of Prius.
CVTs are more efficient by all accounts, but as already pointed out, they could be programmed for more fun as well by keeping the engine at the optimal torque rpm during acceleration before settling down while cruising. If well programmed, this should also eliminate the “thunk” that you typically get when a standard? automatic drops down a gear or two when you put the pedal to the metal. And, really, the CVT seems to me to be the best way to go with a hybrid power train due to the engaging and disengaging of the ICE not to mention slightly improved fuel economy over a typical auto or manual transmission.
You guys want all this stuff and under $20K. It won’t happen!
It will be between $22-25k
I’m not buying anything that requires me to buy fuel for it.
If they offered a fully electric version of this vehicle, count me in.
Yes, but it only fit two people, not a lot of cargo and was really, really slow. It’s about as misguided an attempt as the GMT900 hybrids are.
Toyota has the formula: make the car practical, and people will buy it. The Civic is not as practical, the GMT900s aren’t as practical, the Insight really isn’t practical.
But for one or two people commuting to work everyday the original Insight was a better and more unique car and focused on it’s fuel economy mission. It was a much more pure car which I like.
I spend about an hour and a half a day commuting at an average speed of 28-30mph. The original Insight was the perfect city car for the purpose it was designed for. A purpose now filled by Smart and there are plenty of Smarts running around here in my city.
Well, will all of you people who whined about the Volt’s “final appearance” please place your foot in your mouth?
John Horner :
“Does Honda have experience with CVTs? ”
The mid70s CVCC hatchbacks (1stGen Civics to hit U.S. shores) offered a CVT. The shifter read:
P
R
N
L
Many Honda ATVs feature CVTs too. I wonder if the 90s difficulties were related to ATV CVTs pressed into automobile service.
mgrabo :
“The mid70s CVCC hatchbacks (1stGen Civics to hit U.S. shores) offered a CVT”
No the “Hondamatic” trans used from ’76-’79 in the Civic/Accord/Prelude was a two speed “automatic” trans with a torque converter. Not at all related to a “Continuously Variable Ratio” transmission.
Offer a manual and I am in. I am certain manual will be available world-wide, just not in “we are too lazy to shift” America. :-(
Surpise me Honda and I will buy. My cars is a 99 and I am getting ready to buy.
I doubt a manual will be available on this car. The CR-Z on the other hand stands a decent chance of receiving one.
Yeah, I think the same, but really I don’t want the CR-Z sports car. More expensive, higher insurance, lower mpg, less practical…
I will just wait and see, There are diesels on the horizon as well. Some with manuals.