OK, guys, feel free to get it out of your system. No flaming TTAC policy switched off for this post. Yes, I know what you’re thinking: TTAC always finds the dark cloud outside the silver lining. Here we have unexpected good news: in V6 form [not shown, ’cause it’s rental car fodder], the new Camaro gets 29 miles per gallon highway. As The Detroit News giddily points out, “The brand initially estimated its highway mileage at 27 mpg but had provided a conservative estimate, said Troy Clarke, GM’s president of North America. ‘We did error on the side of caution,’ Clarke said. ‘This is at least three miles per gallon (more) than the (Ford) Mustang.'” When did error become a verb? See how that works? If TTAC isn’t criticizing GM’s turnaround plan—such as it isn’t—it’s trying to kill the ailing American automaker via death by a thousand cutting remarks. Well, two things: 1) GM should have never wasted money building this car and 2) Is anyone going to buy a Camaro over a Mustang or Challenger because the Chevy’s V6 gets better mileage? Oh, and 3) there’s something really creepy about this quote: “‘We need to seduce new customers,’ Peper said. ‘We feel (the Camaro) will have a very broad reach.'” Is that a reach around? Hey, it had to be said. OK, flameproof suit on. Gopher it.
Broad reach… as in, we’re hoping to make a lot of these for distribution to every major international airport in the US and Canadia for use as rental cars in V6 automatic trim. OK that and they are hoping the safety scissors trim levels can be sold to somebody, anybody… hey you over there get over here and buy one of these or else we’re just gonna get your money anyways.
Do you know what the V6 models are actually? They’re the volume product required to allow wagoner and the others to have their epic retro camarogasm. The V6 models to you and me are just one day (some day) hopefuls for V8 transplants that is if that sort of thing is still slightly more socially acceptable than wearing fur to a PETA rally.
Two full years ago GM paid big bucks to get the Camaro a staring roll in the Transformers movie. Two years! What kind of brain trust does a big bucks marketing move two years before anyone can buy the car?
At this point, the new Camaro is a yawn. I feel sorry for the yahoos that will pay over sticker to get one of the first ones.
Ooooh, 29 mpg highway for the V-6 version. Yah, sure, that is going to sell train loads of Camaros.
Most of those who are waiting to buy one sure as heck don’t plan on getting a V-6. The twenty something chicks who once upon a time were the core of the V-6 Camaro market have moved on.
Seems to me that its a darn good result. 29mpg with 300hp is bloody excellent. I’m starting to tire of the endless GM S$%% talking. Fine their management sucks, but from an engineering standpoint, 29mpg with 300hp is impressive.
In response to RF’s first argument, the platform was already developed (zeta by holden), enthusiasts and individuals alike were ecstatic over the concept and i believe already 10,000 pre-orders exist.
In response to the second comment, those considering the v6 model of either camaro, mustang or challenger are choosing the car because of its looks and image. For these non-enthusiasts, fuel economy DOES makes a big difference.
Thirdly,…im not even going to debate this one. I hope it’s some kind of joke.
This is another “oh yeah” car to me. Already tired of looking at it. The G8 has got my attention…want to see the GXP trim…nothing like a large, overpowered, arrogant looking sedan that wrinkles asphalt.
teoluke
10k pre-orders? Don’t make me laugh. GM needs a car that sells hundreds of thousands of units, at a significant profit.
Agh, I hate this company.
They kick up my home city’s (Janesville, WI) unemployment level to the highest in the state, ask for tax dollars from the same town they just screwed (indirectly, through the Feds), and then build overhyped and under-delivered cars like the Camaro in Canada instead of the same community they just robbed blind. They’ve been hyping this car for so long that I simply don’t care anymore. In the time they have been building this POS Chrysler has dropped the Challenger upon the world and Ford has done a full refresh of the Mustang.
Oh, and I have NEVER driven a GM car that I have liked.
This is just petty. Plenty to criticize GM about, but none of it is here.
29mpg for a V6 Camaro is not “pointless”. It’s hard as hell to find a car that is all of the following:
1) Powerful
2) Decently economical
3) Not hideously ugly or boring (see: most Japanese cars)
4) Reasonably priced
5) Not a buzzy, annoying 4-cylinder
There’s definitely a spot for this car to fill. Some people here obviously have their switches stuck in bash mode.
Just because King Obama and Queen Pelosi want Congressional Motors to build nothing but horrible econoboxes doesn’t mean you have to join in, guys.
1)GM should have never wasted money building this car
Probably not, but they did what they did. I like this type of car so I won’t complain.
2) Is anyone going to buy a Camaro over a Mustang or Challenger because the Chevy’s V6 gets better mileage?
29 mpg highway is not only better than the Camaro’s retro-competition, but also bests the Genesis Coupe 3.8 and 370Z. Will anyone buy a Camaro V6 because of mileage? I doubt it. However, it doesn’t hurt anything and it might help the CAFE mix enough to keep the V8s in business.
Plus, if gas rockets back up to $5/gal, GM will have something worthwhile to advertise.
come on seriously….give them a freakin break. this is not bash worthy. you are showing exreme signs of biasness against the general. this is journalistic prostitution. not to offend regular prostitutes
This is all out of context. I suggest that all future GM posts attempt to frame each issue from the perspective of the new owners.
Close your eyes and imagine GM was bought by someone with infinite money with a goal to maintain employment and build “green” cars. That’s it.. No other significant goals.
Now open your eyes and bask in the glory of “PRO Motors” (Pelosi, Reid, Obama)
Profits are not a key measure.. If profits were relevant, GM would have changed years ago. Don’t be distracted by the talk, look at the action, results and consequences (or lack thereof).
beller
You’re calling TTAC– OK me– a whore? That’s… incredible.
It’s one of the very precious few Chevrolets I would be happy to spend money on. If only the Malibu or Impala resembled the classic cars that made those names famous in the first place and had the kind of head turning style this car has.
There’s plenty to bash GM over, but cars that they seemingly did right, are true to the brand, and give the customers what they want isn’t one of those things.
Someone over at AutoBlog also posted some of the highway numbers of four cylinder Japanese cars in comparison.
Nissan Sentra SER Spec-V – 21 mpg city / 29 mpg hwy
Honda Civic Si – 21 / 29 mpg
Mazdaspeed 3 – 18 / 25 mpg
Subaru Impreza – 20 / 27 mpg
Mitsubishi Eclipse – 20 / 28 mpg, GT V6 = 16 / 26 mpg
Another bonus is the LS and LT Camaros look virtually like the SS, the only real clear way to discern them is the absense of Brembo brakes and no hood scoop on the LS and LT.
@Beller
A whore? If so, then TTAC/Robert are pretty crappy at being whores…
Maybe we can take up a collection and send Robert to a Thai whore university.
“TWU! We have a 94% placement rate post graduation!”
Lived in Thailand for 5 years….what a place.
lw
Wait; now you’re calling me a cheap whore? It sure is getting hot in here.
Per my earlier comment.. The new owners are not interested in profits..
“General Motors is preparing a fresh barrage of discounts and other promotions to coax Americans into buying more cars after an upcoming US government decision on further financial aid to the Detroit motor industry.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7c531d92-1270-11de-b816-0000779fd2ac.html
This does seem like an odd thing to criticize. As many have mentioned, 29 mpg is pretty solid considering the vehicle type, and that result beats a lot of smaller-engined vehicles.
As far as “will anyone buy it instead of the ‘Stang because of the mileage”, ask again when gas is back at $4/gallon. Buying patterns got pretty interesting the last time.
‘We did error on the side of caution,’ Clarke said
Classic.
Not you personally…..however the continual bashing of everything GM becomes whore(ish).
GM products I like:
G8 GT…GXP?
CTS V
Corvette
Malibu
Silverado
Also rans:
Solstace/Sky/Moon/Sun, whatever…
H3T… I know….
beller
Seeing as the gloves are off, what exactly do you have against whores? I mean, I consider TTAC an autoblogospherical anti-whore. Be that as it may, there seems to be some strange hidden psychological dynamic underlying your accusation. You know what? On second thought, perhaps we’d better leave that one alone…
So why knock it? 29mpg jeeez if this had been toyota you’d be singing their praises demanding to know why the big 3 couldnt match, so what if they underestimated, isn’t that a good thing these days? You may pick on it but in the flesh the car looks amazing, much better than the challenger and stang. So what if 10k people were on a waiting list, good for them, i hope they all get one. Yes GM needs big sellers but like with your flawed argument about the corvette needing to die, what if this produces a profit at a lower production run. I’m not denying GM need lots of homeruns to make profit again. But this is not a malibu/camry. It is a Camaro, all companies need these types of vehicles to put passion back into their respective companies especially in these times. Yes we waited too long for it, but its here its more economical than its other muscle car competitors and you still knock it. Are you really automotive journalists? I think your obsession with GM has blinded you.
I would love to have one of these, theres more and more knocking around the tech centre at GM and on the street they look amazing, especially compared to the challenger when they do manage to be on the same stretch of asphalt. I don’t want a V8 while stuck in my daily commute the V6 will do just fine thanks.
Being against a whore is not a bad thing…oh, nevermind….
Ok, GM blows, and I will probably buy a Mustang before a Camaro (but still never), but this is just a low blow.
Although your three points are valid enough, and the car probably still sucks. BUT, getting 29MPG is a Good Thing, and an achievement deserving praise for such a car and such an engine.
So instead of telling the Truth and giving props where it’s due, TTAC unfairly bashes GM and the Camaro (This is probably one of the very few times I will say that GM is unfairly bashed, by the way) in order to up the page views and comments for all the D2.x lovers and fanboys. When your claim to fame is “The Truth About Cars”, how is that NOT journalistic prostitution? (Only in this one entry is, but it still is)
Maybe GM can start a TTAC Death Watch on their blog. Maybe Uncle Sam or Elon Musk can spot you some cash to keep you operating until the end of the year. Maybe Nardelli will ask who REALLY owns TTAC. Or maybe you can just put up a donate button on top and stop whining about this and that and resorting to cheap tactics like this and threatening to shut down the site if there isn’t enough subscription money to support it. Wow, flaming is so fun, maybe you will triple your comments and readers when you allow yourself to be flamed.
Muscle car with 300 hp for 20g… the selling point is gas economy?
What about the fucking horsepower? Sex? Testosterone?
Women don’t love Brad Pitt because he’s fiscally responsible if you get my point.
It will sell better than the Challenger for sure and maybe even the Mustang at first. I haven’t even seen one in person and I am already sick of looking at it.
The V6 in this car is atleast a proper V6, not 90 degree OHV V8 with two cylinders missing.
I’ve made it my personal mission to convince someone at GM to build a smaller, more efficient OHV V8 engine for wider use in its cars. People like V8’s, but this 400+ hp beast has no place in anything but a Cadillac or Corvette.
The Camaro needs to work as a daily driver, even with the V8. I don’t think GM gets this at all.
The V6 Camaro won’t have the image people want, and the V8 will probably kill you. I’d put money on both being seriously flawed in some way that makes them impossible to live with on a daily basis.
Mustang and Z? Just right, as usual.
edit: I agree with the article, though there is a lot to like about the Camaro. They should have built it in 2003 along with the current Malibu and it isn’t about to save them now.
I think it is a fine car,the mpg is a plus. Of course it wont save GM,they have much bigger problems than this car.
GM cars I like:
Wow, this blank piece of paper could be an investment someday.
@dilbert
Assuming the goal is to turn GM around and become profitable (which it isn’t), the Camaro makes no sense.
GM needs a high volume vehicle that is incredibly profitable. A license to print money so speak.. Something the dealers can’t keep on the lots and something that would drive GM to run 3 shifts on Christmas day to keep up.
Any other vehicles just drain cash and inch GM closer and closer to liquidation in a normal world.
Now since GM’s new owners don’t care about profits, a 29MPG Camaro makes sense.
While I’m in fantasy land let me spin another dream…. Let’s assume GM had a pile of cash and wanted to use the Camaro as a halo product… This could be a tuners delight. Imagine an “unofficial” chip that could be installed without even lifting the hood and would increase the horsepower by 100 and drop the mileage into the floor.
are we having fun yet?
Completely unrelated to the business case — I find myself strangely drawn to this car.
Six cylinder with 300 hp and great mileage? I’m not complaining yet. While I always would want a V8 in a muscle car, it’ll likely be out of my budget. Unfortunately I’m not wild about GM’s 3.6 liter V6, and I have doubts that it’ll sound very good in the Camaro (sound being crucial in a muscle car, of course).
That said, I’d have to be absolutely monkey insane to plunk down for a *new* Camaro or Mustang, when I could just let someone else take the beating on residual and pick up a freshly used 8-cylinder car.
Well guys there isn’t going to be one car that will fix GM. Don’t make the perfect the enemy of the good.
If the Camaro is half decent it’ll sell well (for a pony car). The hp/$ calculation can’t be beat.
Honestly the main thing holding be back is that I don’t want to eat it on the depreciation, and I’m leery of buying a first year from GM, especially when they’ve been skimping…
Think of it this way, toxicroach: It’s hardly a new car at this point!
If this was a Mustang I’d say you guys are beating a dead horse. Why does TTAC want to see GM fail? If GM is going to turn itself around it has to start some where and maybe (I’m not a marketing expert) the Camaro is a start. GM has failed but so have major banks and real estate investors – a strong automotive industry benefits America. Hey I drive a 4 banger so a V6 sounds sporty to me LOL and the Camaro does look good.
Heh well yeah
Sorry folks, 29 MPG is nothing to celebrate these days**. The fact that this car has been vaporware for so long is an embarrassment. This car would have made sense for GM in 1999, but in 2009? Too little, way to effing late. In twenty years they’ll be calling it Bob Lutz’ last erection.
Call me back when GM can ship a car that gets 45 honest to god MPG. THEN I’ll be shocked.
–chuck
**I drive a TDI… I’d be PISSED OFF if it got 29 MPG. In fact I get pissed off if it ever gets less than 45 MPG.
Hey, RF, you always claim to have no agenda other than to tell the truth, right? Yet you have just written “If TTAC isn’t criticizing GM’s turnaround plan—such as it isn’t—it’s trying to kill the ailing American automaker via death by a thousand cutting remarks.”
So here you’ve just admitted YOU DO WANT GM TO FAIL!!!!
Here we are with GM reporting good mpg on a V6 Camaro. How in the world can you ridicule them for that? Nobody anywhere, not even DetNews, makes a claim that this will save GM. But good ol’ TTAC laughs, in effect, that here’s more crap from GM. And let’s pick on the use of “error” when the word should be “err”– there you have it, absolute proof that idiots are in charge at the RenCen!
This really tears it. And I actually defended TTAC a couple weeks ago. RF, you and you all the usual suspects, er I mean the “B&B,” are now, more than ever, showing your true colors. Constructive criticism? Ha! Nuanced argument? What a laugh! You possess some primal hatred of all vehicles domestic regardless of their (often considerable) merits. I have known this for some time, but this post removes all doubt.
To be frank, if this post is the kind of crap that passes the smell test of a TTAC that doesn’t pay money…well, I’ll be glad to pony up that eventual subscription fee so you can pay to get the stick removed from your ass.
Another day, another GM bashing. Now that TTAC cannot get any more creative, what’s new?
You guys must be nuts.
It’s a 300hp RWD car with unique styling for 20k (although with a horrendous looking interior). Oh, and it can get better mileage than any sports car that competes with it. You can dog GM for many things, especially not getting this to the market sooner and horrific product planning in general, but give them some credit for this**.
**I drive a quick car… I’d be PISSED OFF it was a bore to drive. In fact I’d get pissed off if it was dull and my biggest concern was mileage.
People aren’t going to buy any pony car because of milage. I believe people will chose the Camaro over the Mustang because;
– 304HP V6 VS 210HPV6 and 300HP V8 Mustang vs 250hp V6 Challenger w/25mpg
– IRS on Camaro VS Solid rear axle on Mustang
– 6sp Manual vs 5 speed
The bigger problem for the Camaro is that we have been waiting for the bloody thing for so long, it’ll need a mid cycle refresh next year.
I read this announcement on FastLane and several things occurred to me:
My first thought was, “If the Mustang is your only problem, your worries are over.”
If one can really achieve 29mpg… that’s pretty good. But I’m from Missouri…
Ed Peper’s message included something about a 21st century sports car… No, it’s a 1967 sports car, updated.
Our ’67 was better looking, too.
While I’m thinking about it, someone named “Ryndee Carney” of “GM Executive Communications” has started posting responses on FastLane recently and I’d like to nominate her (?) for “Most Clueless GM Communicator,” both for her contributions to the comments in Ed Peper’s “Camaro Time!” and in responses to an earlier blog entry, “Setting the Record Straight.”
I’ll add this… if I understand correctly, the 3.6 going into the Camaro has Direct Injection. It sounds as though it may work wonders. If so and if GM wasn’t squandering money on the Volt and Hydrogen Dreamcells, they could get DI into the fleet and kick Toyota around a little bit.
By the by, if I understand correctly, Toyota has Direct Injection, too. Just on Lexus, at the moment, I think. But Toyota pushed VVT into pretty much the entire product line before GM got that off the ground. It would be a good thing for GM if they could get DI into very widespread use ahead of the competition.
However, I’m still not convince anybody will see 29mpg on the road and maybe it’s just that 6th is unbelievably tall. Time will tell.
TZ: “As far as “will anyone buy it instead of the ‘Stang because of the mileage”, ask again when gas is back at $4/gallon. Buying patterns got pretty interesting the last time.”
When gas hits $4/gallon, both the Mustang AND the Camaro will be hurtin’. When that occurs, GM will want to be able to offer a Yaris, Prius or Corolla. Which they won’t have.
Chevy will then rush out a Camaro XFE with 2.2L Ecotech 4.
People will be lined up all around the block for that. Yessir.
Ha, a newbie! How cute. Dude, where you been? This site’s reason for living is to bash GM at any opportunity, even when they don’t deserve it (which is rare, I know).
Let’s see, a 300hp, 6 sec 0-60, great looking coupe not shaped like a jelly-bean that gets 29mpg? (same as a Rabbit) Yeah, that’s a bad thing. Dopes.
What’s that sound? Oh nuthin, just the the little morsel of credibility TTAC had left bursting into flames.
If I didn’t like TTAC so much, blatantly biased posts like this one would drive me away. So much goodwill built up by “telling it like it is” wasted on… nothing.
While in real life the V6 Camaro will probably not get 29 mpg (you think any driver knowing he’s got 300 hp will drive it like there’s an egg under the gas pedal?), this combo platter of power and efficiency (from a heavy beast, no doubt) is a Good Thing.
No wonder you donned the asbestos suit, RF; you knew what you were doing. And to think just yesterday I wanted to click on the missing PayPal button. Not today.
GM puts out a fun car albeit later then they should, that gets decent mileage, and TTAC doesn’t like it. Just admit it, you won’t be happy until the entire collection of D3 and all their useless money sucking suppliers are gone, and a couple million people are collecting unemployment and medicaid.
But nary a mention of the hundreds of millions of dollars paid in bonuses to companies that have collected hundreds of billions in federal bail out money, NOT LOANS, but PURE BAIL OUTS.
Maybe the site should be renamed
We Hate Detroit and Will Not Quit Until it’s NUKED
WHDWNQUN
LOL
“2) Is anyone going to buy a Camaro over a Mustang or Challenger because the Chevy’s V6 gets better mileage?”
Here’s a better question – is anyone going to buy a Mustang, a Camaro, or a Challenger, knowing that these companies may very well go bankrupt and that would leave you with a worthless can and possibly a worthless warranty? Especially since Hyundai’s Genesis Coupe is better looking, has a better warranty, little to no chance of its manufacturer going under, and offers a goddamn program where you can easily return your car if you lose your job?
there’s something very stale about this car… it was in the 1st Transformers and now it’s gonna be in the 2nd and it’s just getting to customers???
as it stands right now, i’d put my money into a Mustang being Ford is the ‘last man standing’… but $30k for a live axle, 5 spd manual/auto car?
hey at least it beats driving a 4,200lb Chrysler which will be the 1st guy to fall
I don’t care if it gets 60MPG and only cost 10.000 dollars I would not buy crap from these money sucking whore’s,and why should anyone? they should give each and everyone of us one for the money they have taken from us.
ca36gtp said:
Just because King Obama and Queen Pelosi want Congressional Motors to build nothing but horrible econoboxes…
HAHAHAHA, that made me laugh!
As for the new Camaro: To me it’s a good looking car. For the 1970’s. Well, I shouldn’t talk; I drive a Prius pod. But I’ve learned that looks don’t matter much when the car is dependable and service generally lacks undesirable surprises.
29 mpg means the car is slick and the engine is efficient. I think this means GM can make a decent 6. So if they survive, I would be less likely to dismiss everything they make wthout an 8.
Frankly, I think it’s as ugly as a cockroach’s anus. It is even uglier (I never thought it would be possible, but GM pulled it off!) than a late model Taurus. I wouldn’t be caught dead in one even if it got 59 mpg & had 600 hp.
Are you just becoming the anti-delarenzo??
An ass post, great car.
And yes, mpg matter. Many people who wouldn’t consider a Camaro might if it specs out at a huge 29mpg hwy. Looks good, big power and good on gas, which is what people have been harping on them to deliver. They deserve a big yee-ha for this car – from you no less!
I am with you on the movie deal etc, but that is a side show to the car’s goodness.
Maybe, just maybe that combo of power and economy might be impressive when the Camaro hits the streets. There is just not enough info yet, not to assume:
1.) 29 MPG is just GMs old EPA tricks again. If it’s a stick you have a stupid tall final drive and maybe some sort of silly skip shift. If it’s an automatic it will be programmed to rush to top gear by 30mph, the torque convertor will lock up by 35, there will be no engine braking whatsoever, and getting a downshift will require mashing the go-pedal to the carpet.
2.)The interior will suck. The Challenger’s does and so does the Mustang’s (well did anyways, new one might finally be nice). Assumed plasticky rattly junk until further notice.
3.)The handling will blow. Again the Challenger sucks and so does the ‘Stang(unless you *pony* up 35k+ to get the track-pack) so the assumption is it will be ride comfort over anything else.
Of course it is possible GM will pull a winner out of their ass on this one. Look what they did with the Cobalt SS, we know it is possible. I just can’t believe that touting the fuel economy is an indicator of good things to come.
Also I think they would have been better off to keep this thing a secret longer…the anticipation has long since worn off. I predict sales crater after these supposed “pre-orders” are filled.
Oh and one more thing…all this longer lower wider stuff is crap as far as I am concerned. Look at this thing it is a chopped and Foosed replica of it’s own 1968 self. If the GM styling brain trust could make something more upright, with cleaner styling, I think the result would be both more faithful to the original, and more relevant to the current times.
This is like TTAC becoming its own forum troll
I don’t give a shit what the Camaro gets in highway driving. Let’s see city numbers. If it achieves 20 mpg city I’ll respect its mileage.
Also, Farago: Just you wait, buddy. On April 1, I’m getting my alter ego Roberto Fargo to write his Nintendo Death Watch on LoopyLines.com. It will be an epic troll. You will wish you were never born.
Till then…
Hmmm? Lots of response of this one eh?Whoa we turned the GM bashing faucet wide open today.
Nah, Camaro won’t sell a 100k units but but it may suprise a lot of folks.
Seriously?
Who really give a sh*t about the Camaro?
Sure, it can be ordered with an extremely powerful V8 but how many V8 cars are they gonna sell 2 years from now when all the folks that want one have one?
The Camaro will be rental car fodder in 2 years.
I say, Show me the money!
GM future products are like UFO:s. I won’t believe in them until I see one…
When the Camaro comes out, it will be old news, ready for a facelift. Like the new “refreshed” Volt, that looks exactly nothing like the Volt concept. It shouldn’t take this long to get out a vehicle from an already developed platform. Which makes me wonder, what is it, exactly, that takes this long to fix?
Another interesting thing would be to know how sales for Mustangs and Challengers will be affected by the Camaro. How has the Challenger affected Mustang sales? Do they sell any Challengers at all these days? A chart would be nice.
Oh, and all this talk about whores makes this site look cheap. I’ll never forget the article I read in an english car mag for classic cars, where they did a test about a one-off Aston Martin Laginda. The owner talked about the cost of ownership and upkeeping, and compared it with “the cost of keeping two mistresses.” The consensus was that the Lagonda could be compared, but was way more fun. That’s class…
Who gives a sh– about the Camaro?Lots of people do.Here at domestic bashing central,a.k.a.TTAC,no.
Here’s a shock,folks.Not everyone is crazy about the bland offerings from Asia.
Are the die hard GM haters gonn’a buy a Camaro?I don’t think so.Though I think there’s a market for those that are looking for something that looks American.Love it or hate it the Camaro stands out and gets noticed.
PS Look at that Robert 65 comments so far.Why so many?Cause today you gave a voice to a wider crowd.The reason TTAC is failing is cause your preaching to the choir.Day after day of domestic bashing is becoming boring .
I like TTAC and I want it to survive.You don’t have drop the anti flame policy,it gives the site class.
The Camaro is a piston heads delight TTAC should run with that.Whats TTAC done with the Camaro?Bash it bash it and bash it again then threw it to the rice crowd to bash it some more.Hey you even printed pre production photos.Classy stuff!.Do I see an agenda?Dam right! And I ain’t the only one.
I think a car like the Camaro should be seen from it’s piston head credential rather than bussiness plan. the hell if it makes sense… as long as it burns rubber and sounds great what the hell….
why does every model need to make business sense. it’s other products that have sent GM down the drain. Pontiac ASSTECH anyone? or pontiac as a whole…
a brand name like the Camaro can afford to undersell, but at least it’s there. however i’m a hundred percent with the fact that GM are really trailing behind in terms of launch.
and about mileage, a V6 with 300hp and a good mileage do make sense, especially when the economy straightens up and the oil barell prices shoot up again. V6 owners will be laughing their way to the fuel pump while V8 owners will be opening Tabs or just letting those cars rot in their garages.
anyway with respect to all the retro pony cars currently in production i think the Camaro will be the best.
this comment is bias because the camaro has always been one of my favorites. and in my eyes if it is what brings GM to the ground, then so be it… at least i will see my childhood dream car live on for another decade or so..(me hoping of course)
I don’t have a GM obsession and feel no reason to bash them.
I’d like to separate the management from the product and hope this car helps them out in some positive way.
mikey
It’s all about the money. Will the Camaro earn GM a profit? How much of a profit? For how long?
Would the money spent engineering, building and marketing this car have been better spent on something else? A better Impala? A next gen Malibu? The Volt?
Does the new Camaro help the Chevy brand? Remember: from gas efficient to gas free? Getting 29 mpg highway is wonderful thing (no matter how they do it), but the Camaro doesn’t pass the smell test for fuel efficient transportation, which includes packaging. In other words, this is not a family car. Pontiac? Maybe.
Generally, It’s hard for pistonheads to understand that what they like personally may not be good for the company. For example, I have a yen for a Lexus IS-F. Lexus should have never made it. Porsche Cayenne? Stupid. Ford GT? C’mon. Chevy SSR? Awesomely inappropriate. Pontiac G8? The what?
I have a sneaking suspicion that, Camaro-wise, we’re looking at another Chrysler 300. Big success out of the gate. Higher-horsed SS an instant classic, beloved by all. Lower-priced versions start to sink fast. Rental fodder and done.
Once again, GM has let the great become the enemy of the good.
From a bad economy/rising fuel prices perspective, everything seems “right” about this car. 300 horse, decent 0-60 and fantastic highway mileage.
The only thing wrong is the fact is that it’s from an American manufacturer, and it’s not Ford. I think at this point, any NEW car from a basically bankrupt manufacturer can’t really be considered for purchase (IMHO).
If this was released in 2005 when I bought my Sti for > 30 large, I would have given it a serious look for both the cost & gas savings, assuming I could find a minimally optioned 6 speed and it was actually $20k’ish + taxes (not $5k markup over sticker).
Too little, too late GM.
But, as a 4th-gen Camaro owner who actively hated the retro design of this car, the “base” powertrain certainly has my interest piqued.
17 City/29 HWY (6 manual) 18/29 (6 auto) is pretty respectable for a 300 HP car that is capable of a sub 15-second quarter (though 6th gear is probably pretty tall).
They’ll probably sell more Camaros than most people think, but I (for one) am going to “wait and see” for a bit while the early adopters flesh out the issues with this car (and the govt. fleshes out the survival strategy for GM).
As an earlier poster mentioned, if the new Malibu, this car, and a decent small car (Cruze) had been put forth by the General in 2004, they might have landed a little softer in the current downturn.
Look you say the camaro is sex and excitment. Well read the reviews of the six cylinder mustang, Essentially they all say, if you can’t buy the V8 walk away. A more rental type car can’t be had than a ford mustang six.The cars are made to be cheap corvettes. As such, they must perform well or their is no juice. We know that their is a niche for cheap sports cars, and now mustang, challenger, and camaro will share it with a couple of Japanese pretenders. the camaro doesn’t fail, it simply doesn’t sell hundreds of thousands and save the company.
Power6 has it absolutely right. That 29MPG highway number is a total trick. Notice how the economy drops a bunch with the stick. Spin loss is much less with a manual which means that to get the economy with the auto, it’s upshifting like crazy, has a ridiculous 6th gear and won’t downshift unless it’s floored. Yes, it has 300hp, but no, you can’t use it.
As I see it,the original plan was to have the new Camaro run down the nice new,state of the art flex line,here in Oshawa.Right,big numbers out’a the gate.The plan “WAS” after the Camaro launch to do a RWD Buick or an Impala all on the same line.Yeah well that didn’t work out so good.
GM had gone too far with the Camaro project and it was too late to change.So now my former employer has a nice new modern flex line,and no product.All dressed up and no place to go.
If,and thats a big IF,the Camaro could put up Chrysler 300 numbers we can survive another couple of months.In the meantime if GM can get another vehicle to run on the flex line,we might have some hope.If of course the US and Canadian taxpayers bail us out.
Lot of if’s there eh?
Enjoy the Camaro folks its a sweet little ride
Despite the punishment free flaming I can do now, I’m in agreement with Farago for a change.
Camaro should have stayed dead for now. GM burned now exceptionally precious millions (perhaps billions) to get it off the ground. Yeah it may be the best performance buck for the dollar right now but this won’t get grandma to quit buying Camrys or Yarii. Camaro took cash away from significantly bettering their mainstream car line up, and why? To one up Ford and Dodge? To one up teh JaPz0RsSSSs? What would the world be like if they’d poured all this Camaro cash into making the Aveo world class? The Malibu even better or having a Malibur SHO version or something?
Yes the Camaro is bad ass, the new fuel economy is excellent but it was most likely not what was best for GM right now. People think that most of their car line up sucks so what do they do? Ejaculate millions to revive an old Muscle car franchise that they killed when times were actually good?
Is that mileage with the t-top option and the 2 speed powerglide tranny?
I think scrubnick nailed it – this will be a muscle car that’s paralyzed by a transmission nanny.
To top it off, I think the car is front to back ugly, from the V-bend grille that looks like it’s being pulled back re-Neducation style (“just relax, Lisa, and let the hooks do their work”), through the ’67 Mustang side profile, and the bubble-butt haunches. The 90’s-era cars were sharp-looking vehicles, if a bit Probe-like. How hard would it have been to refresh those blueprints instead of this thing?
All the people bashing TTAC for hating on the “domestics” need to grow a sense of irony. By pointing out the fact that TTAC was going negative on the coverage of the Camaro, they defused much of your knee-jerk argument against TTAC. Calling out the “error” quote and joking that “we’re all grammar-nazi’s here at TTAC” or some such (the thousand cuts comment) I found quite playful and witty.
As Scrubnick pointed out, there seem to be mechanical tricks afoot that render the row-your-own option inefficient compared to the auto… when the heck have you ever seen an auto that equals or exceeds the mileage of a manual?
Looks like RF didn’t need the Asbestos Footie Pajamas, as y’all were just lobbing tasty Hot Pockets instead of coming after him with a flamethrower.
Robert Farago:
“teoluke
10k pre-orders? Don’t make me laugh. GM needs a car that sells hundreds of thousands of units, at a significant profit.”
Robert Farago:
mikey
“It’s all about the money. Will the Camaro earn GM a profit? How much of a profit? For how long?”
First off, I like the Camaro. If you’re a piston head, you have to like it. Hell I’d like to see a Trans Am version.
That being said, the one thing I don’t understand is why GM has a dedicated plant to build it? If as Mikey says the plan was to build some other new models with it, why, when those models didn’t materialize, didn’t they put the Camaro in another underutilized plant? Chrysler planned the Challenger to built along side the 300 and Charger in the same plant. It’s flex facility (something that everyone here forgets that Chrysler is really good at and maybe a reason why GM/Nissan/FIAT have expressed some interest in them in recent times), and can build a fourth model if needed.
The Challenger only needs to sell 35,000 copies to make a profit. That’s not that hard (well it wasn’t till the market imploded). But a single factory has to crank out 150,000 or at least a 100,000 to be efficient. 200,000 is really the sweet spot. So my question is this: What was GM thinking? It was the good old days and they could still sell 100,000+ of these? Even in the last years of the Camaro/Firebird they didn’t sell like this. Only the Mustang could be expected to sell in this range.
Chrysler was a lot more intelligent in it’s product planning than GM. Another reason why if you have to pick one automaker to bailout it should be Chrysler not GM. GM just keeps stumbling in their underwear. Only now every stumble costs the taxpayers more money.
I’m skeptical about the 29 mpg’s. Never had a GM vehicle that could deliver on the promised mpg’s, but my Honda consistently over delivers on the published mpg’s.
That said, this car is ridiculous. GM (chrysler and ford too) need to get their heads out of their asses and realize they need to court younger buyers. This “retro” styling binge the 2.8 are on is only getting aging boomers excited. It’s not earning them 1st time buyers who quite possibly could be loyal to the company for many years to come.
Go to any college campus and poll some 20-somethings about what kind of vehicle they would like. Hands down a vast majority would pick Japanese and European cars. I’m sure most would prefer the Civic SI over this Camaro in any trim.
I wish that Ford had never axed the Probe. While it wasn’t perfect it did have the appeal of a Euro or Japanese car, probably because it was a Mazda more or less. Had it been updated and refined and still selling today I’m sure it would sell to a much younger demographic than the Mustang. Unfortunately for the 2.8, their customers are all going to start dying off in the next 25 years. Then what? By then it’ll be a little late to start designing the vehicles the younger gen’s want.
I admit I am not the Camaro demographic. I personally have found them cheap, trashy and likely to be sitting on blocks behind a chain link fence and a pit-bull in the yard. I will also admit that this thread was doomed to be nothing more than a Camaro bashing event. So….my two cents. There once was a comedian that joked that the V6 Mustang was the chick car and the V8 was the male version. So this car will probably sell, women and rental car companies will buy them up. The truth is GM probably has to produce this car to keep the barely alive “excitement” in their marketing image, but on the other hand this looks and smells to me of using the same formula that got them in this mess to start with. Instead of building competitive, economical, quality cars that are competitive with world brands, lets build a retro muscle car! As a car guy, I am curious to see about this car. GM (and all American companies) have a tendency to cut corners on cars to the point of killing their future so we will see if this will be an effort to build cheap or to build something competitive. The true test will be what choices GM leadership makes with this car through the next couple years. I truly would like to see this car successful because GM needs it, but my expectations are low…..
With these numbers I would assume the the auto transmission is a DSG transmission like they are using in the new Equinox, which is basically an auto shifting manual transmission.
windswords: “First off, I like the Camaro. If you’re a piston head, you have to like it.”
Why? This is the ’67 Camaro, as redesigned by Maximum Bob. The front has been rendered ugly, the butt is grotesquely enlarged and the roof has been given that chopped and flattened treatment.
I might like what it can do… but I’m very doubtful. Reports are that it’s heavy. This won’t do much for city fuel economy and it will take a few steps off its performance. If 29mpg is actually achievable on the road, I’ll be impressed but they could have taken the technology to do that and put it into a more practical car that gets really good fuel economy.
I have to agree with those that posted 29mpg + 300hp is a pretty incredible acheivement. I think it will help boost sales of the Camaro and is generally good news for the general.
I’ve just read that hybrid sales have dropped by 2/3 in the last year. The public seems to have a memory of about three months, so at the moment, it hardly matters what sort of mileage the Camaro gets.
I’m more concerned about other things. They had one on the floor at the AJC Auto Show in Atlanta. The interior was the chintziest of any car I sat in, though it may have been pre-production. Rear visibility was bad, but no worse than the Genesis, and a hell of a lot better than the 370Z. All of the above were inferior to the Corvette.
Seat comfort was only so-so. The perspective from inside is as if you were driving a giant engine. The cowl feels enormously high, as do the slab-sided doors, both of which combine to make the car seem larger than it is. (This, from a reviewer over six feet.) Even with competent G8 mechanicals, I can’t see this car feeling sporty on the backroads. I hope the reviews find differently.
Robert:
I’m not a fan of the Camaro. Although I owned a Trans Am way back when, I think this is the wrong car at the wrong time and won’t sell well.
But the mileage is actually quite an achievement, and your criticism of GM in this regard is both illogical and petty. It shows that you are completely unable to be objective about GM.
Robert, maybe you need to include ‘(pun intended)’and ‘(joke)’ going forwards, cause tongue in cheek tone ain’t cuttin it anymore.
What exactly were you looking for from Chevy? Here’s what I see:
– a beautiful car that Amerivans will truly want to be seen in
– a thoroughly modern powertrain that is powerful and efficient
– a RWD chassis with a contemporary suspension that would appear to have the elements of a great ride/handling tradeoff
– a relatively inexpensive vehicle that fits well with the Chevy brand
– a vehicle that tens of thousands of consumers will happily pay $300/month to drive
Isn’t this what we’ve been looking for all these years? So why all the whining?
I’d rather have GM build this so they can show to the world that they have a pulse. Everybody wants GM to be like Toyota, but if that means building nothing but boring econoboxes, count me out.
This is the first GM car that has turned my head in many years. My ’87 Taurus, ’87 Escort, and ’81 Century were such POSs I swore never to drive Detroit products again. As a result, I’ve owned Toyotas and Nissans since the ’90’s. But I am now considering a Fusion or Camaro. And if the Camaro has advanced technology and quality, and gets 29 mpg on the highway with a 300hp V6, I am very impressed, whether it is German, Japanese, or American. Why the negativity?
But according to you, Detroit, and GM in particular, can’t do anything right. Granted, GM has made a lot of mistakes, and Wagoner and the Board of Directors are buffoons. But you are blinded by your obvious hatred of the General and you couldn’t care less if they were liquidated. I’m no fan of GM, but I do give credit where credit is due. Examples of Detroit trying to give us what we want: CTS, G8, Flex, Fusion. These vehicles are light-years ahead of anything the D3 has ever produced, and some are on par and exceed the Japanese in quality.
I’m no fan of protectionism, or of buying American for the sake of patriotism, but where do your loyalties lie? American manufacturers need our support, not our bashing. With friends like you, who needs enemies like Chavez, Ahmadenijad, et al.
Let’s believe 29 mpg when we see it.
One more thing: get over yourself. I don’t care about your biases. Just give me the truth about cars.
Since the first day of production for the Camaro was yesterday, we won’t be seeing any in dealerships until later in the summer/fall. Our dealer has 38 allocated for this year and you won’t see the Z28 or convertible. That being said, I did see one on the road yesterday with a manufactures plate on it.
This is good news. Congrats to GM for doing something right for once. The V6 will be the money shot that pays for all the V8’s as they will sell more V6’s to Daddy’s little girls than they ever will to the good ole boys.
I have like the design of this car, even though I agree, it seems old now after seeing it for so long now. That pic in the article though is repulsive. It’s got a ghetto booty, just like the Challenger. The new Mustang is much sexier IMHO.
Well, if nothing else, this post proves the no-flaming rule is pretty important!
Quote1: GM should have never wasted money building this car.
Just like Toyota should not have wasted money making the Turdra. Yup, it’s such a hot seller that every single Toyota dealer I have been to still has brand new 2008’s sitting on the lots unsold. Should Nissan have wasted money making a refreshed Z car with a larger V6? Should Dodge have wasted money making the Challenger? Should Toyota have wasted money making yet another god forsaken CUV/wagon whatever the hell they call in the form of the fugly Venza? This question would be much better directed where it’s deserved. And the very nice looking Camaro does NOT deserve this.
Quote2: Is anyone going to buy a Camaro over a Mustang or Challenger because the Chevy’s V6 gets better mileage?
Well lets see, the Challenger with the V6 gets 25 highway or 4 less and only comes with a 4 speed automatic. The Camaro has both a 6 speed manual or 6 speed automatic. The Mustang is rated for 26 highway with the 4.0 liter truck engine and 5 speed auto which is 3 less than the Camaro. The Camaro has 304 HP vs 250 for the Dodge or 210 for the Ford. So the simple answer is YES folks will look at the superior more advanced and powerful 3.6 with newer designed transmissions that get much better mileage and buy the Camaro. Oh and the Camaro has the same base price as the Challenger yet offers an idependent rear suspension which is something even the 2010 Mustang doesn’t offer. Lets also not forget that the Camaro’s 6.2 liter V8 offers 426 HP for $30995. It takes the top of the line Challenger SRT8 for $42696 to net you 425 HP in a heavier bulkier package. Thats a 11701 difference for those that need to use there fingers.
The Camaro does have suductive sheetmetal and will never be mistaken for the plain as unbuttered toast Accord or Altima coupes or the we left it too long in the sun Tiburon oops Genesis coupe with it’s inferior V6 mileage and inferior base 4 cylinder engine.
So I would suggest sticking to things that CAN be criticized such as why there is no rear seat center armrest in a Malibu or Aura or why Toyota can’t offer cruise control on it’s top of the line 20K Corolla as std equipment or why car manufacturers are eliminating glovebox lights from cars or why every damn manufacturer is making cars all look alike with no bodyside protection moldings and plain generic BMW or Toyota clone styling.
I believe the 29 mpg highway claim. GM V6s are frugal highway cars.
But who drives a Camaro on the highway?
All the mfrs, particularly GM, are focusing on highway mileage – but most people drive locally in their city. City mileage is what counts.
And most Camaro buyers won’t care anyway.
I’ll tell you how many mpg this car actually gets: 0! It they haven’t built the damn thing yet! Somebody said that real world production on it started yesterday. Why’d they bother? Its been vapor ware for so long that it’s due for a restyle before its put into production! When they do finally start building them, I will take an SS in dark grey as payment for my bailout dollars thankyouverymuch!
Do you mean I’m not going to get a “YOU’RE BANNED” email from Faragone if I say this proves my assertion (yet again) that TTAC (save some of the very good reviews some GM cars have received [from everyone but Faragone]) hates General Motors with such passion that they will nitpick an excellent FE rating and a grammatical ‘error’? Will you please just admit in no uncertain terms that you actually do despise GM? You told me in an email once that you do not hate GM and I never believed you…it’s OK if you do, I just ask that you come out and scream it from the mountaintop, or maybe post it at the top of the page so all hapless internet hounds who happen upon this site know your editorial stance.
May I ask, Roberto: do you consider yourself a journalist? Just wondering.
If this mileage is not a trick then it is a disaster, because engineering should have been able to predict it or validate test results that show it. Either the General’s marketroids are not listening to engineering (un-possible!) or engineering has lost the plot.
Some companies under-promise and over-deliver, but the General isn’t one of them. This is screwy.
Raskolnikov
As I said, TTAC’s anti-flaming posting policy has been disabled for this post.
You might want to check my reviews of GM vehicles before you accuse me of panning their products on purpose.
Yes, I am a journalist. And I don’t hate GM. I hate what’s been done to GM.
I really don’t know what my posting will do after all the bile and piss that have been spewed onto this blog, but here goes.
I am usually in agreement with TTAC points as they are only negative when a situation is megative. Which lately has been most of the time. That being said, What is the deal with this post?
1)This is a great idea for a car, though the timing is wrong.
2)Nothing wrong with a 29mpg v6 with 300hp.
3)Lastly, selling cars like this is about seduction. This isn’t a practical 4dr family mover. This is a non-sensical 2dr pony that is all about emotion not rationality. So it is creepy to think about seduction in relation to selling a machine, but this has always been the case.
200k-min :
March 17th, 2009 at 7:48 am
I’m skeptical about the 29 mpg’s. Never had a GM vehicle that could deliver on the promised mpg’s, but my Honda consistently over delivers on the published mpg’s.
What type of GM cars have you driven that couldn’t get the rated mileage? I have owned over 20 GM cars and rented numerous GM, Ford, Toyota and Honda products and most all have met or exceeded the EPA ratings. Hint- the car manufacturers do not concoct the ratings, the EPA does and they are all very close. Perhaps the one GM car you drove was high mileage and out of tune.
That said, this car is ridiculous. GM (chrysler and ford too) need to get their heads out of their asses and realize they need to court younger buyers. This “retro” styling binge the 2.8 are on is only getting aging boomers excited. It’s not earning them 1st time buyers who quite possibly could be loyal to the company for many years to come.
I think it is the young buyers that need to get there heads out of there asses and realize that not everybody is an import humper that likes bland look alike Asian cookier cutter sedans. It’s time to move away from the keyboard out into the real world and realise that choice is good and things are the way they are for a reason. And why do car companies need to be aiming every car towards youngers buyers who probably could not even begin to afford the payment on a new Honda anything. The younger generation will eventually grow up and want some styling pizzazz and traditional elegance and comfort and some may not.
Go to any college campus and poll some 20-somethings about what kind of vehicle they would like. Hands down a vast majority would pick Japanese and European cars. I’m sure most would prefer the Civic SI over this Camaro in any trim.
Thats funny because I work in a high school and have asked well over 50 students what they like in todays cars and not one even mentioned a Civic SI. Oh and several said they would love a red or inferno orange SS Camaro or Corvette.
I wish that Ford had never axed the Probe. While it wasn’t perfect it did have the appeal of a Euro or Japanese car, probably because it was a Mazda more or less. Had it been updated and refined and still selling today I’m sure it would sell to a much younger demographic than the Mustang. Unfortunately for the 2.8, their customers are all going to start dying off in the next 25 years. Then what? By then it’ll be a little late to start designing the vehicles the younger gen’s want.
The Probe was a dog and it was front wheel drive. That combined with tepid styling, lackluster Mazda powerplants and a cheap interior soon killed that car off.
Yawn. GM, please badge engineer this into the Saab 9-6x and then we’ll talk, k?
@ 07Frontier
I’m confused. You write American manufacturers need our support in the same comment in which you write Granted, GM has made a lot of mistakes, and Wagoner and the Board of Directors are buffoons.
And, this With friends like you, who needs enemies like Chavez, Ahmadenijad, et al. is a low blow. Keep in mind that it was Wagoner and the Board who’ve overseen the utter destruction of shareholder wealth that Chavez, Ahmadinejad, and Jong Il could only dream of accomplishing (and this started long before the “extraordinary market conditions” of late). To attempt to lump Farago in with those characters is almost as ironic as your username.
I guess you need to abandon ‘irony’ RF.
mikey:
“So now my former employer has a nice new modern flex line,and no product.”
That would be a good question of the day…what could be added to that production line that would best serve GM?
My GTI, with 200hp I4, and front drive (and still 6 forward gears) is rated at 29mpg on the highway.
I’d say its definitely impressive. In fact, I’ve been lusting after this car for awhile, especially after the excellent reviews given to the G8 GT, I would expect the Camaro to be just as good or even better.
And the thing cost about what I paid for the Volkswagen too.
Maybe I’m the one who got burned??
On their website, 29 MPG is in big letters on top of the specs but if you go down, in small print it says 18/27. Oh and the manual is going to get 17/25.
If (and it’s a big if) this car will ever get 29MPG, does anybody realize that’s just 5 MPG less than the Aveo??
Which is proof of how GM’s focus is nowhere near it should be.
Instead of putting some R&D into small engines, come up with 1.6L Fit killer that gets 45 MPG and sells in droves, they’re touting 29 MPG for a sports car as if that’ll be GM’s salvation…
@Jeff Puthuff
Just because a company has made a lot of mistakes, and the BoD and CEO are dumb, doesn’t mean I want the company to fail. I try to buy American when I can, and when it’s the best value for my money. It’s good for our economy, our country and our children.
I’m more concerned with GM the company, and the thousands of direct and indirect jobs it provides, rather than the shareholder’s wealth. And, my name simply reflects what I currently drive. I gave the home team a try. I cross-shopped Canyon, Colorado, Ranger, Dakota, Tacoma and Frontier. The Frontier met my needs the best, so that’s the one I went with.
I’ve bought and paid for seven American cars:
’77 Bobcat
’78 Thunderbird
’79 Courier
’81 Escort
’81 Century
’87 Escort
’87 Taurus
Transplant cars I’ve owned:
’99 Corolla (gave to my daughter)
’04 Frontier (gave to my son)
’05 Altima (wife’s)
’07 Frontier (mine)
As for my Chavez comment, maybe it was a little over the top. I was simply alluding to the fact that as Americans, we should stop the cynicism and stop tearing each other down. There’s plenty of bad guys out there who have ill will toward us. I was in Europe for three years during my stint in the Air Force. They don’t have near the patriotism we have. I still believe that united we stand, divided we fall.
I hate to admit it but (maybe because i am getting older) I think GM got it right here.
First, lets harken back to the days when Cameros, Challengers and Mustangs were king. Well, never kings…princes. The Charger and it’s ilk were king. Who was their European/Asian competition? BMW, Porsche, the 280Z, or RX7?
Then something happened. American car companies, at least on the track, quit playing agaist the imports. They got larger, worse handling. They manipulated the rules to prevent direct competition with the imports. The roadworthy Trans Am took a back seat to the NASCAR inspired Grand Am.
Oh, you could still buy the “muscle cars” but the most popular in sales were the slimmed down versions. The V6 or small V8. Sure the R/T, Cobra, and SS got all the attention but what sold most?
Now GM has to find out where this car will compete – both on the track and in the marketplace. It’s not a Civic. It’s not a Celica. BMW 3? That’s a big leap but that should be it’s target. Will it make it on the track and in the hearts and minds? Right now, all I see is other retro cars (Mustang/Challenger).
As much as I may not be a fan of GM, I have to say that I think they got it right here. If they could manage 21/29 out of that v6 and make it reliable, I would buy it right now. It is hard to find a decent mpg fun car that you could daily drive and isn’t ugly. With the bipolar gas prices these days, a v8 is out. But, a IRS and v6 rwd Camaro would be fun at a reasonable price. A 300zx or Supra imitation more than a Camaro, but I like those better anyway. The question becomes can it outdo a turbo-4 Genesis coupe?
Just like Toyota should not have wasted money making the Turdra. Yup, it’s such a hot seller that every single Toyota dealer I have been to still has brand new 2008’s sitting on the lots unsold. Should Nissan have wasted money making a refreshed Z car with a larger V6? Should Dodge have wasted money making the Challenger? Should Toyota have wasted money making yet another god forsaken CUV/wagon whatever the hell they call in the form of the fugly Venza? This question would be much better directed where it’s deserved. And the very nice looking Camaro does NOT deserve this.
GM needs cars that make money. The Camaro simply won’t sell in enough numbers that it would be profitable. It won’t even be close. Until this past year, Nissan and Toyota actually made profit. They could make cars that lost money as long as that happened. GM hasn’t made a profit for years, well before the financial meltdown, and that was with GMAC and Ditech giving home loans to anyone who had a pulse. When was the last time their North American car business actually made money?
07Frontier
It’s been said before. I’ll say it again. Anyone who “unites” behind a failed company is simply enabling that failure. This is not the social/economic contract that made this country great. And I’ll be damned if I’ll stand back and let GM bring us into darkness without lighting a friggin’ Roman candle. OK, and cursing the darkness.
Maybe it’s just me, but this site isn’t what it used to be. With this economy now people on both sides seemed to have lost the humor and wit that made this place great. Possibly this has to do with not enough truth about cars and too much bashing of car companies/people/innovation. Get this sites finances sorted out and hopefully things will start to look up. Bitterness sucks!
frozenman
Speaking for some (not all) of the writers and commentators, I’m not bitter. I’m angry.
So, GM’s newest, funnest, hippest and bestest new app is coming, and all they can say is “29 MPG V6… that’s 3 better than the Mustang!”
That’s the best ya got?!
Lemme see… take a flier on a ill-assembled first-year platform from a bankruptcy-imminent company boasting a storied recent history of tubing its customers (DexCool, plastic manifolds, craptastic Aveo), or buying… anything from any other manufacturer?
Agree with RF… don’t want to be an enabler. I’d sit the entire GM hand out, and exclude my tax $$ from its subsidization if I could.
Love America, empathize with GM workers… but its myopic execs are no better than those at AIG. That said, I look forward to my next Ford…
There are two things bothering me about the Camaro, though.
1.) No nav system. Yes, there’s OnStar, but I prefer a screen to input information, thanks.
2.) At least one Chevy dealer near me is asking for a $10K markup. I think they were also asking for a $50K markup on a Corvette ZR1, too…
RF, I love ya…but you are really reaching with this one.
If anyone should be berated it should be Ford. Launching the Mustang with carryover powertrains and carry over transmissions is FAR worse than the 300HP Camaro getting almost 30 MPG on the highway.
I can’t really see the bashing of this car considering the market it is for, sure it isn’t going to save the company and they aren’t going sell enough of them for it’s product developmet to have made sense but that’s not the cars fault that is GM’s fault as usual. YOu can expect nothing less from bone headed management.
I think the car looks ok, I would like to see it in person to see it’s true size and 300hp should make the V6 fun to drive if the thing in reality isnt a fat pig and has some decently sporty suspension settings(not GM’s strong suit until recently). I would take one if i got it free or for a steel used and I could have it as a fun go fast project and toy, but as a 2nd car it doesn’t really meet our families needs right now. A G8 GT wagon now that I would seriously consider. I also have a hard time with spend my money on something that will always make me think of the guys I hated in high school who had Camaro’s.
One question about this mileage, this 29 highway is it an actualy EPA figure or just an inhouse number the GM is putting on the street. All manfacturers have a tendancy to slightly overstate the numbers they get to the numbers the actual EPA test puts out. YOu can’t really compare this number to existing cars that have been EPA tested, like comparing anecdotal to EPA. I have a burning feeling the EPA numbers will come in around 26-27 highway. Was this number generated with the 6 speed manual or the 6-speed auto the shifts to 6th the second it can leaving you will no real world power, like in the G8.
On a side note GM does not need to be saying “they errored on the side of caution”. Never ever say the word error in something they were planning for. GM has already made enough errors for 2 lifetimes and some of them they actually did plan themselves, like building just trucks/SUV’s or thinking hybrids were a fad.
Let’s see… 300 horsepower, great looks and 29 mpg and it gets bashed? How could this be? TTAC! Thats the answer. I can’t wait for the review where one of the astute automotve analysts will surely call it “a flaming piece of garbage”. No. No bias here. Or maybe some more of the “B & B” (bitter and brightest) can post more genius like “I’d never own a GM car” or “I hate this company” or “They bankrupt my town” and on and on. The site really shows its angst lately. Financial pressures can do that I guess.
Camaro? Really?
Does it come with 4 concrete blocks and a mullet wig?
Has there ever been any motor vehicle company that has been able to parley nostalgia into financial success?
Or is the rationale here that if you build enough 1967 cars, it will suddenly become 1967, when Detroit ruled the auto market?
Unless GM wants to become the Harley Davidson of cars (i.e. selling a niche-market retro-product with no practical value) I don’t see how the Camaro helps them. And if GM does want to become the H-D of the auto world, well, then they’re going to have to shrink to about 1/50th of their current size.
Has there ever been any motor vehicle company that has been able to parley nostalgia into financial success?
How about MINI?
Unless GM wants to become the Harley Davidson of cars (i.e. selling a niche-market retro-product with no practical value) I don’t see how the Camaro helps them. And if GM does want to become the H-D of the auto world, well, then they’re going to have to shrink to about 1/50th of their current size.
I’m hoping this is how Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth ends up.
@ RF.. re And I don’t hate GM. I hate what’s been done to GM.
So you feel sorry for them? Hell, what exactly has been done to GM? GM have bought all their misery on themselves.
I guess there is one reason someone would buy a Mustang over the Camaro. At least Ford is going to be around for a while yet.
Bridge2far,
Hasn’t GM really been responsible for all those attitudes you seem to think are tired and ignorant? Seriously, we are now loaning them money. I am sure there are some great folks still left working there, but I think they would mostly agree that the organization as a whole has not shined much lately, and has done a LOT to anger the public.
Even if we like some of the new cars, that’s not going to change the attitude. They are getting bailed out, they meddle in our political system, and they consistently display a superiority complex that for the life of me I just cannot understand. From the bottom to the top and back again they have failed their corporation and our country for decades. The good ones need to stand up and toss the bad ones out, or go start their own company instead of going along with the bailout and status quo.
Has there ever been any motor vehicle company that has been able to parley nostalgia into financial success?
How about MINI?
Isn’t that the exception that proves the rule? How many cars does Mini sell each year? Enough to keep ONE GM facility open?
Acually, Miata was a big retro hit as well. Suburbans are also sold on nostalgia. Has the Mustang not been profitable?
No, you aren’t likely to see someone run an entire car company successfully on nostalgia, but that doesn’t mean it’s not a useful tool.
You can’t build a house with just a hammer.
Martin Albright
volkswagon beetle is another.
RF, gotta say youre losing cred over that article.
time for deathwatch deathwatch?
i mean the camaro isnt what im looking for, id like a small pickup that gets 40 mpg.
but, still a nice looking sports retro, relatively inexpensive, 300hp, near 30 mpg, man, if it was a toyota, youd be bashing GM for not being smart enough to make it.
I’d be worried that they geared and tuned the transmission on my PERFORMANCE car for fuel economy just so they could seem greener. It may hurt sales because the car may seem sluggish at highway speeds compared to the competition.
Going to chime in again here, even though this is almost off the front page if not already by the time I finish writing it.
Timing wise, it could actually turn out to be perfect if the economy starts to recover or evens out this year or 2010. There would be a pent up demand for new cars and GM could be there to fill it with Camaros. If GM cancelled it and the market recovered and 2010 Mustang sales skyrocketed, everyone would be shaking their heads the way they did when they crushed a bunch of EV1’s. It’s a gamble of course, but atleast the car looks decent enough on paper and it could win really big in the right environment.
At this point they don’t have much to lose by trying. They would probably still be on the edge of bankruptcy had they not built it and it has the potential, however slim, to save their ass now that they have.
PS: It damn well better have a highway gear as tall as a building, this isn’t a race car.
The Probe was a dog and it was front wheel drive. That combined with tepid styling, lackluster Mazda powerplants and a cheap interior soon killed that car off.…
Flame rules off? Ponchoman49, your statements indicate your ignorance. Let’s see, Car of the Year, All-Star, 10Best winner, even a thumbs up by the toaster testers at CR! Yeah TTAC does not put much stock in car mag awards, but still, that’s a good showing.
That lackluster Mazda powerplant spins up to 7000 RPM without getting coarse, and propels the car to 60 in the low 7’s, damn good for mid 90’s.
Styling is always subjective, but the PGT was way nicer that the MX-6, the PGT’s kissing cousin.
Driver inputs were smooth and accurate, the equal of any FWD Japanese car of the era. Brakes were good, shifter was good, steering direct and accurate.
95% of the interior was of quality components, only a few corporate Ford parts were sucky.
The Probe died not because of poor quality, but it died because 2 door sporty coupes as a genre died off.
“From the bottom to the top and back again they have failed their corporation and our country for decades.”
Don’t forget or overlook what General Motors has acomplished in it’s lengthy and heralded history. To say they have failed for decades is plain ignorant and inaccurate. Now you truly sound like a typical TTAC “Best and Brightest” (uninformed sheeple) drone.
Seems people love to grasp any opportunity to kick GM in the nads no matter what they do. They could even go so far as to produce a Fit incarnate and people will still find a reason to keep on kicking.
Speaking of which:
Instead of putting some R&D into small engines, come up with 1.6L Fit killer that gets 45 MPG and sells in droves, they’re touting 29 MPG for a sports car as if that’ll be GM’s salvation…
They could do that, nevermind it’ll take years to realize profits on one, if it manages to sell in the same numbers or greater, and despite the Fit being a semi-amortized product imported from its native Japan where it’s sold in good enough numbers for Honda to even consider risk export. GM doesn’t have those luxuries.
300+hp and 29mpg from a V6 pony car. That ain’t half bad. Let’s just see what it’ll do when it finally hits pavement.
Go to any college campus and poll some 20-somethings about what kind of vehicle they would like. Hands down a vast majority would pick Japanese and European cars. I’m sure most would prefer the Civic SI over this Camaro in any trim.
College students buy the car they can afford and lust after the ones they can’t. They can afford a used Civic/Impreza/Corolla/Fit, but they’d rather have a Camaro SS or something else with a bit more snap ;)
Bridge,
Be serious. They have been winding down since the early seventies. That was decades ago. The reason they have so many angry ex customers is not some magical myth. It’s due to the crud they made all during the eighties and early nineties. Since then, they haven’t been able to catch back up. If the competition jumped on the truck and suv market earlier, they would not have lasted this wrong.
I really don’t get your inability to understand that GM earned their reputation. Now they have to deal with it. I will be happy to give government interference it’s fair share of blame, but it won’t absolve GM.
A while ago I inferred that TTAC was in danger of “jumping the shark” (to use an american expression).
Does everyone still think I was barking mad….?
But to play Devil’s Haddock, the B&B aren’t helping matter by calling people a “whore”. Seriously, are we adults or children?
I would think the figure of 29 mpg is just that a figure produced in the Lab, in real life its probably a lot less!
When Gasoline increases to $10.00 dollars a Gallon in the USA, its none too good!
Also the quality of parts that GM uses in there vehicles today is of dubious quality like the current call back on many GM Models due to a Cable in the Transmission system that can fail and allows the vehicle to move forward if in “Park”
I guess time will tell, Happy Motoring.
I would just love to see the V6 at the car rentals. They are so heavy with gutless cars and boring japanese models. I think it would be great to have an option to the gutless family sedan Charger which is a disgrace to its moniker. A littler support for american products would be refreshing also. I rent numerous vehicles every month, and I will gladly stick with my Vette and Mustang GTs over all the various unimpressive cars I am continually driving. I enjoy driving, give me something that is fun and looks good.