In Peter DeLorenzo’s last column, the self-styled AutoExtremist prescribed nichedom as an “elixir” for Pontiac. Reader reaction was so positive (apparently) that Sweet Pete has jumped off the deep end. People love the “excitement brand, whether it be for nostalgia reasons or because the attitude and spirit exemplified by Pontiac in its heyday.” In short, for nostalgia reasons. “But,” reckons DeLorenzo, “warm feelings of nostalgia won’t be enough to save Pontiac – or GM, for that matter.” Fast forward through some vintage bashing of “grim-reaping, hand-wringing, self-flagellating purveyors of doom in California and Washington,” and other “green-tinged” coastal elites, and what does DeLorenzo prescribe for the broken brand? Yup, “warm feelings of nostalgia.” Specifically, the return of the Firebird Trans-Am. The screaming chicken. Strap on the mullet, folks, this is going to get interesting.
If GM is going to offer three Pontiacs, I see a portfolio consisting of a full-sized, high-performance rear-wheel-drive sedan (instead of “G8” think Bonneville), along with a new rendition of the GTO (a smaller, sportier, bare-bones rear-wheel or all-wheel-drive coupe) and of course the car you see here – the 2011 Firebird Trans Am.
But why complete GM’s slide into malaise redux? Why wallow in the branding nightmare nostalgia? Because . . .
[R]emarkably enough, there are even people out there who actually want cars and trucks for the sheer unvarnished thrill of it, as terrifying and irresponsible as that idea may seem to the people hell-bent on turning this nation’s transportation fleet into a giant movie set for the sequel to I, Robot.
And for those of you out there who would dismiss this car as just another “Nostalgia Rod” that the newly sober country doesn’t need, I would say this: This resurrected Firebird Trans Am would only be the beginning of an exciting new era for Pontiac.
Pete would offer Screaming Chicken redux with GM’s 4.5-liter diesel V8 or dual-mode hybrid V8. Hey, how else do you sell a “nostalgia rod” that the newly sober country doesn’t need but by saddling it with huge engine cost premiums?
Besides, the Venn diagram for people who want the Firebird back and people who want an energy-efficient sportscar and the people who can afford one looks like three circles with several miles of blank space between them.
Sweet Pete thinks his nostalgia offensive would be cheap because it is based on the Camaro. But then that simply points out the Firebird’s original sin: it was always just another rebadged, cannibalizing marketing/keeping dealers happy exercise. The Firebird is in GM’s past, and that’s exactly where it should stay.
My guess is that Sweet Pete is going to be really and truly disappointed with the niche GM intends Pontiac to fill. Its going to have nothing to do with zeta based products or reincaration of Bonnevilles, GTOs or Trans Ams. Think MINI, think Scion. At this point, Pontiac fans should be happy the Vibe remains a unique product within the GM sphere.
Even if Pontiac had stayed true to its heritage all these years, it would be hurting now because of it. If one must buy a new car, now more than ever the incentive is to buy no more than the appliance needed for the task. To think that Pontiac can enjoy a renaissance in this environment seems absurd.
Once again, PMD proves he needs a road trip out of Michigan for a few days.
Let’s face it – DeLorenzo is just another bitter old man who longs for the “good ole’ days” when he had a job, had some hair, and could maintain an erection without a little blue pill.
A Firebird with a 4.5 liter diesel V8 or dual-mode hybrid V8. That sounds like a Firebird trying to shamefully apologize for it’s own existence.
A Firebird would cannibalize the new Camaro. End of story.
I have to agree with Pete this time. Pontiac being a small niche brand would do well to have a rwd sedan and two coupes, one more extreme than the other. And I always felt the Firebird, especially the 4th gen version, looked better than the camaro sibling. And if GM were to do it like they do rebadges today, which is to say like everyone else, with a different interior, new exterior, and just the same platform, I say go for it. Make it more upscale with a more curvy, sexy exterior(think recent Infiniti designs) and you automatically have a different customer than a camaro. There will always be people that want a pontiac vs. a chevy or vice versa. And i believe there is still a large market out there for people who want more than just a basic appliance. Just because the tree huggers have gone crazy and people love their boring a** Toyota’s doesnt mean there isnt a large group of people that want a quality, high performance, good looking pontiac. And one thats economical at the same time doesnt hurt either.
I don’t think it is that absurd of an idea. With production cycles what they are, any new ideas wouldn’t bear actual fruit until this financial crisis has mostly blown over. When things finally look up, what will people want to drive? You think after years of having to scrape by, people are going to want to drive a responsible vehicle that makes sense? How about something fun and frivolous that helps you put that past behind you? Pontiac will need a small, consistant line up if they are even going to exist by that point. Realistically though, they won’t be around and this argument of what they should be will be as relevant as what AMC should have done.
Before this week’s Autoextremist article, I was tending to disagree with the latest TTAC thinking that Pete is going off track on his auto industry commentary.
Last week’s Autoextremist made me question Pete. This week sealed the deal for me, and I’m starting to think that Pete has lost hold of reality. Come on man, an entire column dedicated to the Firebird???
Dude, GM’s market share is 18% right now (and falling) and you think they can sustain a set of independent Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Cadillac, etc. brands now? The thing to do is consolidate, not continue the brand engineering. Another low-volume hi-po car will not save these guys. For example, reference the Challenger or G8.
But highrpm, as Pete points out, the G8 doesn’t work because it’s not called the Bonneville. Otherwise it would be selling like hotcakes. At fat camp.
Um, who are some of the most effected people in the current economic collapse? The working poor.
Guess who will be the last to see the positive effects of any upturn? The working poor.
Guess who was the principle buyer of the Transcamaro? The working poor. Don’t believe me? Just head over to Great Mobile Homes of Mississippi and see what I mean.
Sure, this “demographic” still buy Pontiacs, I live in the midst of such an area and while the transplants have made *huge* inroads here over the last dozen years, Pontiac is still a big seller. Thus, there might be a market for the Transcamaro.
But who’s gonna be able to afford one? If your target group has no job, won’t be getting a job anytime soon and when they do, it won’t pay squat, I’m not sure how many of these Pontiac will sell.
GM could probably do well making Pontiac into a niche performance brand, but unless they’re willing to gut Chevrolet of it’s SS models and rebadge the Camaro as a Firebird there’s no point. And they won’t do anything to Chevrolet because that’s the only brand that keeps the factories running.
A Firebird would cannibalize the new Camaro. End of story
Not like a Chevrolet/Buick/GMC X cannibalizing sales of a Saturn/Pontiac/Saab Y ever stopped GM.
“Not like a Chevrolet/Buick/GMC X cannibalizing sales of a Saturn/Pontiac/Saab Y ever stopped GM.”
Yes, well, look where THAT got them!
Ummmm… what’s wrong with liking screaming chickens?
The Smokey T/A you used is über cool.
T/A are cool too.
I saw the rendering he posted over there and the car is cool.
A properly executed Alpha sedan and coupe would do the trick. But they’ve no doubt been back-burnered.
AE Wish: screaming phoenix on a rebodied Camaro V8
Reality: screaming chick on a G3
Why does TTAC continue to give poor Pete attention? His lack of grasp on the realities of Detroit were laid bare many, many rants ago. The only reason to visit is for comic effect.
I know plenty of “old advertising” guys outside the auto world who’ve let today’s world woosh by their consciousness in favor of nostalgia.
You can’t have a grasp on what’s going on, and actually write the stuff he dreams up.
Been there,done that,let’s move on shall we?
Uh, the real problem with a modernized Firebird with a V8 would be the cost of insurance for most buyers. Young kids with plenty of testosterone could buy the car but not afford the insurance. Hence, the “tuner” market for four-banger Japanese evolved. Insurance much cheaper. Economics dictated where this market went…and while some old guys (like Pete D.) might long for muscle cars done in retro versions, the reality is the market is too small to justify the investment.
Sweet Pete has been very open about his subjectivity when it comes to Pontiac – so much so that I can’t help but think that he has a clue that he’s really just dreaming of the GM portfolio that might have been.
If you click on the link it looks like ASC is ready to go supplying GM with a front bumper cover and rear bumper cover to turn the Camaro into a Trans Am.
ASC has done a lot of work for GM in the past, but hopefully GM will have the willpower to say no to this.
http://www.autoextremist.com/current/2009/3/3/the-autoextremist.html
http://www.ascglobal.com/
I think you forgot to tie in a jean jacket with the mullet blast.
“Strap on the mullet, folks, this is going to get interesting.”
should be more like:
“Put on your jean jacket, strap on the mullet….”
much better.
On the one hand, you have a great brand identity in T/A, Firebird, Bonneville, etc. You would hate to loose that kind of marketing glitz. You would also not want to water down your brand (remember the Mustang II? Ewww.).
Remaming the modern brands with historical ones to save a logo might work for the G8 Bonneville but if you named the Vibe or the G3 a Firebird…think what Chrysler did to the Duster!
On the other hand, the names of the past just don’t fit into the Average American’s life or lingo anymore. The TranAM series is just a shell of what it once was. Is GTO even a class except in SCCA? Most Sebring owners couldn’t find Sebring on a map of Florida.
What’s a Manufacturer to do?
Don’t forget your black cowboy hat!
Aren’t we far enough into this thing to realize that product isn’t going to save GM’s ailing brands? Saturn has a focused lineup of competitive cars and a good dealer network. What has that done for them? The G8 is everything a Pontiac should be and…nothing. Doesn’t even move the needle.
I agree with Pete. Finding the Pontiac core, and let that niche be the only thing Pontiac is, is what will save Pontiac. In fact, I would go so far to say that strategy is the only thing that will save GM in its entirety, if it was taken as a strategy for GM as a whole. Let Pontiac find its root, and make a niche brand out of it. Let Buick do the same. And the rest of the brands. Let them do that, and let them do only that and nothing more. No overlaps, don’t let them do anything that another GM brand does better. Niching out all the brand is the ONLY thing that will save GM.
Firebird to lead Pontiac out of the wilderness? No wonder Pete loves Lutz so much, both guys are stuck in their adolescent fantasies. I wonder if ever figured out how to be grown up men, husbands or fathers?
Pontiac died of neglect and abuse. It is over. Time to move way past bargaining and get on with acceptance. Chevrolet and Cadillac, everything else is noise.
Ironically, the only car people actually want to buy from Pontiac and have demanded for the past seven years was the Screaming Chicken, the Firebird, the Trans Am, the big daddy hot-rod.
And GM refused to give it to them.
I disagree mostly with Pete but he is right that the brand needs the Firebird. Like it or not, like Pete or not, that’s the car that carried and defined the brand. People didn’t buy anything else from Pontiac in any great numbers, nor did they want to and there’s no arguing with that. Pontiac has been foisting boring, mainstream four and six cylinder cars as it’s bread-and-butter and failing at it for far too long. That’s not what the brand has ever been about.
GM and Pontiac fans did not want a rebadged Aussie muscle car with the GTO name afixed to it and shunned it. They didn’t want a little Miata me-too with no V8. And they don’t want a rebadged Aussie muscle sedan with a no-name affixed to it. GM even humored selling the modern day El Camino from Australia through Pontiac instead of Chevrolet, do they even have a clue?
All Pontiac fans have ever demanded from the brand is the Firebird. Possibly the easiest thing GM could have produced to really give the brand luster again. Simply restyling the Camaro as they always have and giving the people what they want. They sure as Hell don’t want anything else from Pontiac and neither does anyone else.
The brand can’t sell rebadged Aussie cars marketed as budget BMWs, it doesn’t stand for driving refinement, it doesn’t stand for four cylinder cars, or V8 FWDs. The Pontiacs people want are brash, boldly styled muscle cars like the Firebird.
Without that, Pontiac is toast. GM already stuck a fork in the brand in 2002, it’s just taken this long for it to overcook. Pete is also almost a decade too late.
The Firebird never should have been discontinued. That last act was truly the last nail in the brand’s coffin and another classic case of GM brand mismanagement.
BDB :
March 4th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
A Firebird would cannibalize the new Camaro. End of story.
A Firebird should be the new Camaro. That is, the two were always badged engineered in the past, why the heck didn’t they do it this time?
Pontiac lost the war years ago.
Nostalgia means nothing to taxpayers, and evidently, to consumers. We’ll see if GM’s accountants and Congress agree.
The $41k G8 (not to mention the $10k adder attempted by some dealers) doesn’t sell because it’s $41k, and gaudy like the Firebird was. Gaudiness belongs in the ’70s. And $41k puts you into real sports car territory. Cutting its production by 97% will also prevent serious price-cutting on that car.
For Pete to be right, there would have to at least some evidence that buyers were embracing Pontiac’s sportier cars over the past few years, like the Solstice, GTO and G8.
But no, the Vibe (hatchback Corolla) sells more in a quarter than these three combined in a year.
Sorry, Pete, the dream is over. Thirty years over. Go back to Barrett-Jackson fantasy land.
I have to disagree with Peter on this one. GM simply can’t afford it. GM is fighting for its financial life. It can’t afford to build a second pony car. What was once a large market is now a niche. Chrysler already has thousands of dollars on the hood of every Challenger. GM doesn’t need two cars to sell into that niche.
GM would be far better off putting all the development and marketing money for a Trans Am into improving the Camaro instead. GM would be far better off with an excellent Camaro than with a fair Camaro/Trans Am.
I’m one of those baby boomers who owned a Trans Am. I would not be in the market for a new one, and younger buyers today aren’t in that market either — they’re looking for something like a used Civic Si.
Peter has a soft spot for Pontiac, and it is clouding his judgment.
To paraphrase a commenter from a while back:
“Pontiac doesn’t need the Firebird the same way a Mitsubishi Eclipse doesn’t need a turbo and all-wheel drive”.
Just a reminder that the late, great Firebird-mero failed to save Pontiac and died from lack of interest nearly 8 model years ago.
They sold poorly, were poorly made, and were bought by the working poor (just as grog mentions earlier in this post).
What has changed since then, other than GM and Pontiac are worse off now?
Haters go ahead and hate, but if THAT CAR was offered brand new at a price point comparable to its first introduction, they wouldn’t be able to keep them in stock.
THAT CAR, Bandit options and all, sold for about $20,000 in today’s money.
Ironically, the only car people actually want to buy from Pontiac and have demanded for the past seven years was the Screaming Chicken, the Firebird, the Trans Am, the big daddy hot-rod.
It’s worth noting that, in it’s last years, the Fox-body Mustang outsold the Firebird and Camaro combined, and that was when it had no real competition (eg, no Genesis coupe, no big-power hot-hatches that are eminently more practical and, judging from sales, more desirable) save the aforementioned Mustang, which it thoroughly outclassed.
People may have wanted Firebirds, but they weren’t buying them, even when they had a chance. GM would need to either price it through the floor and lose money on every sale, cut corners drastically, or pray that Ford spontaneously combusts.
And heck, even if that did happen, they could still sell just the Camaro and be just as well off.
I’m going to agree with the majority opinion: Pontiac is too far gone, does nothing but steal sales from Chevy and (other than the Vibe and G8) sells nothing distinct. The last GM brand that stood a chance—Saturn—is a demographic picture of health next to Pontiac.
I don’t believe that the “working poor” were buying the last Firebirds and Trans Ams. Those cars weren’t cheap to buy, run or insure. Maybe the working poor were buying old, used Firebirds and Trans Ams, but the sale of used cars isn’t going to save Pontiac, or GM.
Unless the working poor have more money than we think…in which case, they aren’t really poor.
Or maybe we need to overcome our prejudices that anyone who wanted a performance car but didn’t want a BMW was somehow “poor.” The final Trans Ams were hardly inexpensive cars.
In the end, a reborn Trans Am isn’t going to save Pontiac. Tastes have changed, and a powerful coupe with gaudy decals on the hood isn’t going to save Pontiac anymore than a chrome-laden battleship with foot-high tailfins will save Cadillac. Just because people like to ogle old Trans Ams at car shows, or enjoy reruns of Smokey and the Bandit, does not necessarily mean that they will buy a brand-new one.
If the goal is to revive the coupe market while engaging in nostalgia, I’d suggest we look to original European Ford Capri for inspiration.
If the goal is to save Pontiac, a small, relatively lightweight, rear-wheel-drive sedan in both two- and four-door form is the ticket. But GM doesn’t have the money for that option, and Chevy dealers would probably do a better job of selling these cars anyway.
@ Jason:
“A Firebird with a 4.5 liter diesel V8 or dual-mode hybrid V8. That sounds like a Firebird trying to shamefully apologize for it’s own existence.”
Great line.
Edit: I really liked my ’97 Camaro, and would have considered purchasing another one if GM had evolved the design, rather than killing it. That said, I’ll certainly give the new (old) one a look, as it seems to have a “panache” that the other retros lack (and if GM survives, as well). The fact that mikey who posts here wrote of the focus on a quality build in the Oshawa plant had some effect, too.
The Firebird wasn’t cancelled because of sales. Like GM’s old LT1 fullsize RWD cars it sold fine, but GM thought it was better to invest their money in more SUVs and trucks instead of in redesiging new generations of those cars and ceded both markets to Ford with the Crown Victoria and Mustang.
Pontiac’s “sportier” cars didn’t sell well because they didn’t fit the Pontiac brand or it’s heritage.
Nobody liked the styling of the GTO. If you were following the drama on the internet it was quite big and quite loud prior to it’s release that nobody wanted a GTO styled like an Aussie import nor did they like the name affixed to it. The interest was obviously there but rebadging a smooth Aussie car with contemporary styling that looked nothing like a GTO was not what people wanted. People wanted the Firebird back or a GTO that was styled like a GTO. Bob Lutz shrugged it off, the car was released, and failed.
The Solstice was a cute concept, but again the vibe in the Pontiac and Firebird community was that they didn’t really like it and it wasn’t what they wanted to buy from Pontiac. Again they wanted a real Firebird. Pontiac had no heritage of selling a car like the Solstice. GM ignored that and what the community said and the Solstice was released. It was an expensive toy project that did nothing for the brand. Little Miata-style cars are not what people want or expect from Pontiac.
The G8 also doesn’t really fit Pontiac. It also doesn’t cost $41k, it costs in the low $30ks and can be had new for under that now. It’s another Aussie import and though people like this one it’s still not selling because of the Pontiac brand and Pontiac fans. The Pontiac community and fans want a real muscle car, not an Aussie four-door muscle car with a Pontiac grille on it. It would have sold better and fit in better as Chevrolet like it’s sold everywhere else in the world.
Finally with a new Camaro in the oven it’s reignited the drumbeat for a Firebird twin, including numerous (and some very good) photoshops online.
Part of a successful brand is knowing the brand, knowing your core customers and knowing what people expect from the brand and what it stands for. Then delivering it. Obviously, GM doesn’t really know most of their brands anymore and even with a new Firebird, even if it was exceptionally good and true to it’s heritage it’s far too late to save Pontiac now.
I don’t think there’s a point to Pontiac as a brand if they don’t have a Trans Am — it’s the iconic car of the whole marque.
However, I don’t think a Trans Am at this point matters, and with how godawful ugly the new Camaro is (there, I said it), a new generation of Trans Am would probably just piss me off — I still think the ’77 Trans Am is the best looking American car ever made.
The Solstice was a cute concept, but again the vibe in the Pontiac and Firebird community was that they didn’t really like it and it wasn’t what they wanted to buy from Pontiac. Again they wanted a real Firebird. Pontiac had no heritage of selling a car like the Solstice. GM ignored that and what the community said and the Solstice was released. It was an expensive toy project that did nothing for the brand. Little Miata-style cars are not what people want or expect from Pontiac.
Well, really, the main problem with the Solstice is it’s a crappy car. In search of a new automotive toy, I’ve driven every roadster generally available in this country for a five-digit sum (with the exception of the Lotus Elise, due to lack of a reasonably close dealer), and it’s far and away the worst of the group.
I mean, it’s (counting the Saturn Sky as the same car) the only roadster for sale that you can’t drop the top from inside the car; it stands out from the pack only in terms of sheer badness.
But highrpm, as Pete points out, the G8 doesn’t work because it’s not called the Bonneville. Otherwise it would be selling like hotcakes. At fat camp.
Wrong. The G8 doesn’t work because they took a somewhat bland expensive to manufacture Holden Commodore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VE_Commodore and cheapened it with hood scoops and a rental car brand. Pontiac is dead to me.
If the goal is to revive the coupe market while engaging in nostalgia, I’d suggest we look to original European Ford Capri for inspiration.
That’s the wrong place to look. European captive imports never did well in the US, for various reasons.
@Trishield: What people say they want and what they actually buy are two different things. It’d be quite a mess if GM actually went ahead and made another screaming chicken……….only for buyers to stay away in droves.
At least you’ll have your Avanti. The last swan song of a dying marque.
I’m not surprised that he doesn’t bring up the Challenger, which I would consider a good litmus test for a car designed to invoke nostalgia. Maybe he doesn’t have the editorial space to go into it, or Challenger sales figures don’t help his case.
I tend to side with TriShield in that GM doesn’t recognize their own target audience. Condensing Pontic (and Buick) down to one or two niche vehicles that embody everything the brand stands for (ala Genesis) could help the screaming chicken rise from the ashes. That is, if economic winds don’t blow them away first.
I’m not surprised that he doesn’t bring up the Challenger, which I would consider a good litmus test for a car designed to invoke nostalgia. Maybe he doesn’t have the editorial space to go into it, or Challenger sales figures don’t help his case.
From the sales numbers released yesterday:
Honda S2000: 80
Nissan 370Z: 1452
Pontiac G8: 2705
Pontiac Solstice: 248
Scion Tc: 1274
Saturn Sky: 178
Mazda Rx-8: 155
Chevrolet Corvette: 1030
And for the two nostalgia muscle cars:
Dodge Challenger: 3283
Ford Mustang: 2990
I’m willing to bet that the “memory lane” trio of the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger always outsells the quartet of the Genesis Coupe, 370Z, and Miata/RX8.
A Trans Am released today won’t sell. After all, there’s a reason GM got rid of it and the Camaro in 2002; they didn’t meet their sales targets.
But I always thought that if the new Camaro initially sold well, that GM would bring back the Trans Am because Pontiac dealers would demand it. Sure GM have said that they wouldn’t do build one, but they would eventually do it. With the horrible car market, perhaps it saves GM’s face from making a Trans Am that only those nostalgic for the old days would buy. Maybe it would have been a great car, but it wouldn’t have been profitable.
“Pete would offer Screaming Chicken redux with GM’s 4.5-liter diesel V8”
http://www.jtruck.net/misc/4x4cars/full/81formulafirebird.jpg
A proper rear-drive G6 and a proper Torrent (To compete with BMW X and Audi Q – Call it GX or something) is all they need. Pontiac sells on a GMC lot so hard-hat types would consider Ponitiac performance cars…Why does GM sell Buicks on GMC lots? Oh…It’s GM.
John Williams: That’s the wrong place to look. European captive imports never did well in the US, for various reasons.
The first-generation Ford Capri – sold by Lincoln Mercury dealers – sold well. Currency fluctuations priced the second-generation model (which made its U.S. debut in 1975) out of the market.