Even though China is the largest car market in the world at the moment, Chinese car designers have a tough row to hoe. The Wall Street Journal’s China Journal blog explains that while there are plenty of well-educated Chinese industrial designers, the prevalent design philosophy keeps their best work in school. According to an unnamed Chinese auto exec, the competitive advantage for Chinese automakers vis-à-vis their foreign partnership competitors is that they never start engineering or designing from a blank sheet of paper. Rather, the standard practice is to “tell an outside engineering consultant which existing model they want to copy, and ask them to come up with a product counterfeited in a way that it won’t attract intellectual property lawsuits. In some cases that means companies combining styling ideas from two separate cars into one.”
This will hardly come as a shock to seasoned autoblogizens, for whom decrying of Chinese rip-offs is just a little Beijing Auto Show coverage away. But as the Chinese firms ponder global expansion, this “plagarism dividend” is already proving to be an albatross, causing nasty lawsuits and casting a negative pallor across the entire industry. So are Chinese firms likely to start paying large numbers of laid-off western designers and stylists to create their future cars? Don’t count on it. Instead they are shipping over pros like former GM stylist Ed Wong (who penned the Beijing Auto 800 concept above) to teach a new generation of Chinese stylists to, you know, actually design future vehicles. But can true artists emerge from a culture of copycatting?
But can true artists emerge from a culture of copycating?
It works for Hyundai.
But can true artists emerge from a culture of copycating?
Yes. Eventually they’ll get sick of copying and want to do something original. It’ll be mind-bogglingly ugly at first, but eventually they’ll get the hang of it.
The Japanese went through this all too. It’s part of the process.
I think eventually they’ll be able to do something original. It’s going to be something they learn, and they’ll figure out what works and what doesn’t. Their industry is still in the early stages, it’s not always going to be a joke. We all laughed at the Koreans when they first showed up on U.S. shores and they may end up teaching the rest of the world something. The Chinese are a joke to everyone now, 10 years from now we may not be laughing anymore.
“They never start engineering or designing from a blank sheet of paper.”
Which explains just about every bad design on the road today. Rework is a designer’s kryptonite no matter where you live. And until carmakers spend the money for larger styling budgets and altered chassis dimensions the trend will never stop.
Yeah, it is bad in China. But it kinda sucks everywhere you look.
But can true artists emerge from a corporate culture of copycating?
is how I think that sentence should read.
Designs are copied with the idea that looking like a familiar big player will make their upstart company look like a big player as well. Now that that strategy is proving counterproductive you’ll see the creative types that have been sidelined until now come to the fore as a distinctive design signature becomes an asset.
Corporate types are usually the best examples of the “colonized mind” thinking that loves copycating.
“The Japanese went through this all too. It’s part of the process.”
There’s a huge difference – the Japanese for centuries have had a culture of copying and improving things – if not (as in the early cars) the quality of the product then the efficiency of the manufacturing system. This, we can see, paid huge dividends when they quality and efficiency became better than the things they had once copied.
The Chinese seem to have a culture more akin to counterfitting – thus the copy is always worse than the original. This system will never “get better.” The incentive (and their business advantage) is to get cheaper and cheaper, not better and better. Their goal is to race to the bottom – in quality, safety, and even legality (would you like some melamine with your milk?). This culture cannot produce incremental improvement when the competition is to make things incrementally worse until you get caught.
“But can true artists emerge from a culture of copycating?”
Ignorant and racist.
China built the great wall while Europe was still living in caves. I assume you are a fan of Banglebutt? Is he Chinese? Who gave you the Asstek? Try to keep a little perspective.
dilbert: Please. The thesis isn’t that “Chinese people can’t style cars.” It’s that Chinese automaker executives haven’t put any emphasis in developing unique designs. And that a culture of pride in auto design hasn’t taken off there. But hey, they have PHEVs and we don’t, so you win some, you lose some.
And say what you want about the tenets of Bangle-ism dude, at least it’s an ethos.
@dilbert:
We are discussing a business culture, not a race of people.
@ dilbert :
Ignorant and racist.
That’s not really fair.
As far as industrial design is concerned, YES there IS a prevalent culture that exists that copies western ideas, then makes them cheaper and cranks them out for profit. Look at many iconic designs that are released – only to have their designs ripped off, mass produced and marketed to satisfy the hunger of millions of westerners and easterners alike. Every iteration of the iPod is available as a much cheaper, inferior copy in China. Rolex and Tag watches. Car designs. I would never dispute the originality of some of the greater original works of Chinese art in either paintings or textiles, and even architecture, but when it comes to original industrial design to make a quick buck, the facts are irrefutable.
The great wall served a purpose, and yes, was an architectural marvel built with billions of stones on top of millions of bodies. It’s beauty was in its structure and engineering, but its purpose was utilitarian, not aesthetic. Now it’s about the quick buck.
I don’t know about all this culture stuff. When I look at Japanese WWII warplane designs, I see plenty of originality and homegrown design language. I also think a lot of the accusations of car design-copying are unwarranted.
And when they are warranted, it’s not always the manufacturer’s fault. Sometimes it’s not that they’re imprinting their copyist business culture onto their cars, but rather their impression of what the market wants. A lot of buyers DO want a Mercedes Benz look-alike at a lower price, and proudly tell their friends, “Doesn’t my car look expensive?.” What these companies are doing is ignoring our (enthusiasts’) opinions and catering to what we call the lowest common denominator. I disapprove, but I tend to buy used so I can see why manufacturers might ignore me.
And these are young companies. I wouldn’t expect them to be as willing to think long-term.
@Edward Niedermeyer, no, the article isn’t a slam on the Chinese auto execs, it’s saying the new generation of Chinese designers have no originality and will resort to copying western designs because that’s all they are capable of.
Nobody can deny that China has a horrendous record on IP infringement since they’ve become the factory to the world. And I’m sure there will be plenty more copying. But to say the entire culture is based on copying is narrow minded to the extreme and ignores a pretty long history of Chinese people not copying anybody.
Yes, they will eventually learn. This is the way everybody has to go, that wants to learn something. Hyundai started off copying the Morris Marina. Nissan started off building CKD Austin Cambridges. The japanese always had a schizoid view on car design, going back and forth between italian and american designs. Saab built the 92 off the DKW template. Ferdinand Porsche “borrowed” heavily from Hans Ledwinka when he designed the Volkswagen. So much that Volkswagen had to settle out of court with Tatra after the war. And so on and so forth. The point is, the chinese is on the path of evolution. Up until now, they have blatantly been copying, eventually, they will learn. And it will be interesting to see which way they will go…
Edward Niedermeyer :
March 18th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
dilbert: Please. The thesis isn’t that “Chinese people can’t style cars.” It’s that Chinese automaker executives haven’t put any emphasis in developing unique designs. And that a culture of pride in auto design hasn’t taken off there. But hey, they have PHEVs and we don’t, so you win some, you lose some.
You didn’t say “an automotive cooperate culture of copycating.”
By “a culture of copycating”, you implied the entire Chinese culture.
In USA, R&D = Research & Development
In China, R&D = Ripoff & Duplicate
If we are talking about technological patents, then sure we should not tolerate any infringements. Sue them, embargo them.
But as for exterior styling, as long as there is no mistaking a MB wannabe to a real MB, I don’t see any reason why there should be any restrictions. This area is just too vague and too subjective. What’s similar to one person, may be different for another. If it goes to court, probably the one with a bigger legal budget will win.
For me, I think the new E-class headlights are a shameless copy of the Lexus GS. The big companies just have to co-exist with each other. If a smaller company uses that same headlight design, Lexus probably will just pick on them and sue them. It’s the dark side of patent/design protections.
@ RetardedSparks
It is not fair or accurate to directly compare the corporate cultures of the Japanese, Korean, and Chinese companies just because they’re all in Asia. I am sure they are very different and it’s complicated. But the big picture is that the emerging market of China will grow AND improve.
We may be able to nitpick all the examples of things gone wrong in China, but given the size of the Chinese economy, I bet there is a LOT more that is being done right and improving.
To blindly assume that things will “never get better” in China is inviting disaster for any outside company. TTAC readers should already know this!
When are they doing the mustang/challenger/camaro knockoffs? I,m in!!
But can true artists emerge from a culture of copycating?
I don’t think so, I would bet anything the copycating culture comes from the communist government that has been controlling thinking for generations. Think about it it makes generations of people who are afraid to take risks for fear of making the government mad. IF you are e free thinker and innovator what might you figure out about the governments control. Just look at all of their products they are all based on proven western designs not revolutionary innovations, fear of risk and screwing up?
I’m not up on my Russian history but wasn’t the USSR much the same following WWII? Stolen Benz designs and engineering, copy of our shuttle program, nuclear ballistics, copies of western gun designs, etc. I don’t know much about their electronics or software maybe someon can fill in that gap.
I think the culture will need to change before the real potential for stylish cars will start to come out of China.
dilbert wrote:
Ignorant and racist.
China built the great wall while Europe was still living in caves.
And you call others ignorant? My Lord. When the Great Wall was being built, Ancient Greece was already in its classical period. Olympic Games had already been held for 200 years. Roman Republic was already established. Christ, man, please look into the mirror the next time you utter the word “ignorant”.
Dilbert said: “China built the great wall while Europe was still living in caves.”
——————————
Might want to fact check that statement Dilbert. The Great Wall that we see today wasn’t begun until the 1400s. At that time Europe (especially southern Europe) was on the cusp of the Renaissance, and would go on dominate China a few centuries later. I’m not even including Ancient Greece in that analysis (see hwyboho’s post above), which was doing a damn sight better than living in caves when original fortifications that became the Great Wall were begun.
Note: Just because the Chinese believe their culture and history to be superior to everyone else’s doesn’t mean that it really is.
“The Great Wall concept was revived again during the Ming Dynasty following the Ming army’s defeat by the Oirats in the Battle of Tumu in 1449. The Ming had failed to gain a clear upper-hand over the Manchurian and Mongolian tribes after successive battles, and the long-drawn conflict was taking a toll on the empire. The Ming adopted a new strategy to keep the nomadic tribes out by constructing walls along the northern border of China. Acknowledging the Mongol control established in the Ordos Desert, the wall followed the desert’s southern edge instead of incorporating the bend of the Huang He.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China
Slicky, you are right, in my last post I was talking about the earliest fortifications, the precursors to The Great Wall. And even those were build when European culture was already in full bloom.
@retardedsparks:
When was the last time you were in Japan and China, and how much time did you spend there?
As Brian E said: It’s all part of the process. Germany went through it. Japan went through it. Korea went through it.
Remember: “Made in Germany” started as a warning label to protect consumers from copied low quality products, made in Germany.
It has nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with a development process. Making it part of “the culture” says that the Chinese as a people can’t come up with an original thought. This IS racist. And nothing could be farther from the truth.
As for the development process, this is happening faster than in any other country before. I’ve been living there for 4 years now. And every day I am amazed by the speed this country is changing.
@Dilbert:
What are you doing throwing stones on the subject of copycatting? You’re ripping off the name of a (copyrighted) cartoon character.
Japanese carmakers have been inflicting us with the output of their acute styling deficit since about 1955 and there appears no hope of correction, notwithstanding the occasional ray of hope. Germany hasn’t accumulated much of a track record either. So why judge China so soon? Pay no attention to what looks ridiculous coming out of China now.
The Chinese will build many beautiful cars. Their culture will become more like America’s in terms of aesthetic drama and design density than any other automaking nation so far. It’s because, like American designers, Chinese automotive asethetic will be expressive and driven by optimism and confidence. Their automotive designs will be emotionally infused with the eyes-on-the-horizon excitement of a culture apart, just like the United States continues to be. They have to find their aesthetic footing, and will progressively throw off the lingering design principles of statism and duplication. But the Chinese will find their voice, taking their place alongside Italians, Americans and Brits as progenitors of emotional automotive design. You can see in fact that it’s when the US designers try to deny their Americanness that they lose their advantage.
The emotional exuberance of a surging China will add variety to the world’s design aesthetics, and it will re-energize America in many ways, including an injection of adrenalin into our creativity. I’m looking forward to it.
China and the US have co-resonant attributes that can and should make us natural partners, but we also have mutual competitive interests that can drive antagonism. We don’t yet know which way the relationship will fall: new co-leadership structure for managing the world, or prolonged Cold War with moments of rapproachment. Both countries have the potential to tip it either way. Today we see signs of both.
The Koreans found an aesthetic voice in industrial design much more quickly than the Japanese and I expect the Chinese to be even quicker to evolve their design sensibilities. Japan, despite a rich art and design heritage, has not managed to connect its automotive designs to its culture in a way that projects Japanese confidence to the world. China will.
Phil
As for the IP infringement: A lot of this is caused by Western ignorance of how Chinese IP law works. Yes it exists. Yes it has teeth. But you need to understand it.
For trademarks for instance, China is no “first to use” country, it is a “first to file” country. If you want your trademark to be protected in China, you need to file it in China. You don’t believe how many Western countries ignore that step and cry foul when their unregistered trademark gets legally violated in China.
Their culture will become more like America’s in terms of aesthetic drama and design density than any other automaking nation so far.
Then we’re in serious trouble. We have no need for an heir apparent to the Aztek, Cavalier or, for that matter, most of what US design studios churn out.
Lexus used this methodology for many years. The original Lexus LS looked more than a little bit like an E-class MBZ.
Then we’re in serious trouble. We have no need for an heir apparent to the Aztek, Cavalier or, for that matter, most of what US design studios churn out.
These are not American designs. They are designs by Americans working against their own cultural attributes. Every country will have a wall of design shame, and these are posted on ours. But they are not emblematic of American design in any way. They are designs by Americans attempting to emulate someone else. Not our strong suit.
Phil
All those people that are saying Europe was developed by the time the great wall was built are correct and all good, except that China already had 3,000 years of culture and written history before that. GG.
These are not American designs.
Of course they are.
They are designs by Americans working against their own cultural attributes.
Those are designs by Americans who are exemplifying everything that is wrong with Detroit’s corporate culture. Red, white and blue all the way.
They are designs by Americans attempting to emulate someone else.
No, they are following the traditions of the Detroit command-and-control bureaucratic business model. They are emulating what they have learned right here at home. Don’t point fingers; look in the mirror.
I know Ed Wong…I consider him a friend of mine; nice to see his work here. Ed is a brilliant thinker and you will meet very few people more enthusiastic and fully engaged in the art and science of design, automotive and otherwise.
We used to have many very frank discussions about the influence of culture in design as well as the role of design in truly international brands and how that balance is key to design success. Additionally, among all of the designers I know personally, I would trust Ed the most with what design and styling is appropriate to his native Chinese market.
Article from Fast Company 2007: GM’s lead Beijing designer on the 2nd gen LaCrosse didn’t have a driver’s license at press time. The American team got the exterior, the Chinese did the rest.
@Phil Ressler: FWIW Hyundai and Kia studios hired the designers of the Lucerne and 1st gen CTS.
I actually takes offence in the obviously racist remarks. This is not a Chinese thing per se, though they are really good at copying others. Everybody has always been copying everyone else. This is how it’s always been. In medieval times, trade guilds evolved to keep trade secrets secret from entering the common knowledge. Thus tradesmen connected to a guild could assure themselves of always being exclusively occupied and be able of charging higher prices. But, information always wants to be free. And americans are none the better.
Examples that immediately springs to mind, is the Lincoln Continental Mark III, and its faux Rolls-Royce grill. Lincoln swapped their own elegant design language for foreign bling-bling. In the 70’s, Ford copied the Mercedes grille for the american Ford Granada, in hope of entering the near-premium scene. What better than to copy and benchmark the obvious segment leader? In the 80’s, the Ford Taurus is a template of the Audi 100. And what else is the Ford Explorer but a Ranger Rover for the people? In modern times, why does the Lincoln MKS look like the love child of Infiniti and Jaguar, but with nothing of Lincolns design heritage?
FWIW Hyundai and Kia studios hired the designers of the Lucerne and 1st gen CTS.
Yes, but the companies came to the conclusion that design could win market share, and in hiring designers from outside, they got something still aesthetically elevated and brand rooted in their Korean origins.
Phil
This is not a Chinese thing per se, though they are really good at copying others.
The fundamental issue is with their low labor costs. Since price is their primary advantage, they have little need to innovate.
As their labor costs rise, they will need to become more innovative. They’ll need to charge higher prices to cover their rising expenses, at which point they’ll have to develop new advantages or else whither away.
This is a fairly normal cycle, I don’t see much that is cultural here. Those who perish are those who have high costs but lack products that are good enough that they can pass on those costs to the customer.
And that, in a nutshell, is why Detroit is in trouble. They can’t innovate or keep up, but given their large structures, they need to innovate or die. Since the first alternative is apparently not available to them, they’ve chosen the second, whether they meant to or not.
Chinese styling. I’m sure glad that here in the US, our styling is second to none.
Who isn’t moved at the sight of the sensual styling of the Jeep Compass or the Patriot. Of course, nothing says excitement like the aggressive good looks of the G3 and the stunning Aveo. When Ford introduced the 500, I wondered how they could ever top it, but somehow they did with the 09 Taurus. It even reminds me a bit of another classic American beauty, the Tempo. Of course, the Tempo didn’t have those innovative and original chromed side vents – just try finding those on another car.
No styling deficit here. I’m sure the Chinese are envious.
Frozenman:
“When are they doing the mustang/challenger/camaro knockoffs? I,m in!!”
Mate, Ford, Chrysler, GM have already done it. Ironic that you should pick three models that are rip offs of earlier original designs.
Styling is a reflection of taste which is a reflection of experience. China experienced lots of joint venture cars, many a generation or two behind. Until quite recently, the Santana and Jetta were best-selling models. Only recently, after complaints that old technology and styling is being foisted on them – the Chinese received newer cars from the Joint Ventures. From GM, they receive —- Buicks.
From GM, they receive —- Buicks
I wish we had the same models here.
@hwyhobo – you could if GM wanted it. The Chinese Buick Park Avenue is a Holden Statesman / Caprice, which is an extended Commodore, which forms the basis of the Pontiac GTO.
I’m sure it would not be too hard for GM to re-do the US-ification of the Holden Caprice / Statesman … except you can’t trust them as they hit the GTO with the extra fugly stick. If they did the same thing again, it’d be awful sales.
Andrew
carlisimo, I hate to break it to you, but the “famous” Mitsubishi Zero WWII Japanese fighter plane? The design was apparently purchased (at least it was not stolen) from Howard Hughes’ aircraft company.
The American government did not want it because it was not high-tech. The airplane was constructed of ‘antiquated’ wood instead of aluminum. To be fair to Howard Hughes, it was not illegal to sell his design; at the time of the sale, Japan was not at war with the United States.
The other side of the coin.
I hate to break it to you, but the “famous” Mitsubishi Zero WWII Japanese fighter plane? The design was apparently purchased (at least it was not stolen) from Howard Hughes’ aircraft company.
No, it was designed in-house at Mitsubishi. There was some speculation at the time that the design was a copy of a US design, but that was proven to be incorrect.
So how is it that when everyone trashes “American auto makers” or “American corporate greed” or whatever with a broad, collective, brush it’s OK, but substitute “Chinese” and it’s racism?