The MSM knows GM’s broken. (Ya think?) They also know the Presidential Task Force on Autos (PTFOA) is on the case, writing checks as fast their little pens can scribble; it takes a LOT of checks (and no balances) to keep the zombie automaker from going belly-up. The press also realizes that something must change! But . . . what? Rick Newman over at US Snooze and World Report (that was unnecessary, but fun) reckons he knows what GM needs to do that it isn’t doing now. Do what the competition’s doing. Pedants note: Rick’s not suggesting ten new products. I think. He’s simply saying that the following machines are “some of the top cars from which the Detroit automakers can learn.” Presumption up with which GM’s top brass can not put. Presumably. Oh, and Rick, you might want to check the sales charts for some of these, and/or ping TTAC’s B&B for slightly more meaningful memes than Detroit hearts building big.
Honda Fit – “There’s nothing in Detroit’s inventory that comes close, because Detroit has long regarded small cars as a necessary evil, while importers know they can be fun and fulfilling.”
Volkswagen Tiguan – “Small vehicles can be just as cool as big ones. Cooler, maybe. The Tiguan is everything people are looking for these days: practical, fun, and modestly sized . . . [Detroit should] “match the flair, for less.”
Infiniti EX – “Quick, name a small, luxury domestic crossover . . . . Trick question. There aren’t any . . . . Detroiters might sniff that the EX isn’t a true SUV because it doesn’t have off-road capability. News flash: It doesn’t matter.”
Honda Insight – “Detroit needs to find a way to cut the cost of hybrids and crank out a dozen different models, or just hand over the whole segment to the Japanese.”
Audi A4 – “The most common complaint about Audis is that they’re overpriced—precisely the kind of problem an automaker wants to have . . . Strong engineering, slick interiors, and edgy design cues like the “eyeliner” LED lights that accentuate the headlamps have made the A4 a top-shelf alternative to more commonplace luxury sedans.”
Mazda MX-5 – “Ford and Chrysler in particular ought to pay attention—neither even offers a two-seat roadster.”
Volkswagen GTI – “The Chevy Cobalt SS is a GTI imitator, but it’s based on a middling economy car and isn’t nearly as refined. Keep trying.”
Hyundai Genesis – “Buick, Chrysler, and Lincoln might want to study Hyundai’s formula, which is to offer the same features and quality as the top Japanese and European brands for thousands less.”
Mazda 5 – “It’s small for its category, so Detroit’s probably not interested . . . Some analysts think the 5 may actually kick off a new “microvan” category, with copycats like the Kia Rondo. But no domestics, apparently.”
Subaru Forester – “You could pay more for a Chevrolet Equinox or Jeep Liberty, but you’d probably end up wondering why. GM and Chrysler should ask themselves the same question.”
I have to object to some of the comments. Ford is involved with the Mazda 5. And the Fusion Hybrid shows that Ford is targeting the Honda Insight. The Fusion doesn’t directly compete, but it’s closer than the last Gen Ford Hybrid, the Escape. Steady improvement, right?
Learn from the last-gen Acura TL or ES350. Proof that correctly badge-engineered cars will sell. (though I’d never buy either, lol)
Very odd list. Based on logic that “small sells.” Not valid in many of these cases.
The Tiguan, really?
The EX is so dead that there might not be a 2009 model. The new Cadillac SRX is a compact luxury SUV, and will easily outsell it.
The Fit and Forester are strong. GM has nothing coming to compete with the Fit. But to go against the Forester, the new Equinox is very well done.
Against the GTI? The Cruze has (well, will have) a better interior than anything short of the VW in the economy class, and for a lot less money. But GM might not offer a performance variant in the U.S. They should.
The Mazda5 is hardly new. Where’s this boom of small minivans it’s going to kick off? GM did show one recently, but it’s of course unclear whether it’ll get out the door.
I’m I high, or did this guy just call they A4’s “eyeliner” headlights edgy and one of the reason’s the A4 sells so well?
I was saying 20 years ago that GM should just buy some Accords or Camrys, send them to engineering and design and flat out copy them. Sheet metal, suspension, brakes, engine, interior etc, put a bow tie(small one) on it and call it a Malibu or Impala.
If they had things might be different today…. however they probably would have screwed it up somehow.
Subaru Forester – “You could pay more for a Chevrolet Equinox or Jeep Liberty, but you’d probably end up wondering why. GM and Chrysler should ask themselves the same question.”
The new Equinox is much nicer, and Chrysler could point you to a Patriot that’s cheaper than the Forester. Looks like this one is already moot.
Miata? The roadster market is fickle and saturated, don’t bother.
Mazda5 is selling $2K below invoice, so that’s a no-go, too. And yes, there’s the Taiwanese Ford I-Max, a badge engineered Mazda5.
What is up with you guys? the Cruze isn’t a production model, so don’t tell me to compare interiors to the GTI. Wait till they cheap out from the bean counters working this thing over. It won’t be worth a damn.
The Patriot! Really!? Have you actually driven a Forester? That is one fine ride. The Patriot is an under powered over ugly mess. I need more explanation as to how these cars compare.
tiguan? critics blast it and nobody’s buying it?
MX5? nice car, but GM isn’t going to get profitable by selling 2 seater sporty convertibles.
If Ford would bring the Focus RS over to America they would have their GTI slayer.
Can anyone explain why they don’t do this? I realize it costs money for the different safety standards, but the GTI is an icon with fierce brand loyalty. Wouldn’t the cost be worth that type of buzz and goodwill?
Ever since I rode in my first “foriegn” car, a Fiat 850 spider in the mid 70’s, I have preferred small cars. The Fiat was a blast to drive, i got my own – a ’76 X1/9, more fun than a barrel of monkeys, and extremely cool looking.
Since Detroit made nothing like either of these cars, i ceased paying any attention to them. Today, i still pay no attention to them. The above list could be a short list of cars I am interested in, there is no domestic on it. There have been no domestic cars on my list since I was in my early 20’s. I am almost 60 now. I wish them the best, whoever they intend to sell cars to. But it will probably not be me.
Detroit has spent the last 30 years or so ignoring me and dissing my tatse in cars. They still do. Their small car roster is pitiful and cynical. They make nothing i want to buy. The europeans and japanese have always made me happy.
So there it is.
GM might not have analogues in all categories, but there are US offerings that are pretty similar. Here’s my thoughts, trying to use GM vehicles where I could.
Honda Fit – Ford Fiesta
Volkswagen Tiguan – Tiguan isn’t so great, doesn’t sell in huge numbers & is way overpriced. Ford Escape is close in size & practicality.
Infiniti EX – Cadillac SRX?
Honda Insight – Detroit’s got no players in the dedicated hybrid game, and that is a shame.
Audi A4 – CTS? Anyway, I thought people wanted Detroit to make reliable cars, not gremlin-plagued rides.
Mazda MX-5 – Sky/Solstice, obviously
Volkswagen GTI – Cobalt SS does pass muster here – it’s freakin’ amazing & will blow the doors off a GTI. Might not be as refined, but it’ll be more reliable and go faster.
Hyundai Genesis – New LaCrosse? Probably not, but maybe. When they re-do the Lucerne they might hit it.
Mazda 5 – Detroit’s got no competitors here, either.
Subaru Forester – Again, Ford Escape plays here, but GM’s got no direct price/feature competitors. Maybe if they chop $5k off the new Equinox…
I suppose these kinds of magazines will follow the newspapers into bankruptcy. Remember this story EVERYTIME you read one. When write one on something we don’t know a lot about, we forget the fact that whenever they write about something we DO know about, it’s a load of crap.
Clue: Almost all their stories are of the same quality. They are full of crap.
I drive and love my Miata – but I have to agree with my fellow commentators…
A roadster is not what’s going to save these pos companies. Nothing will, in reality, but if I put on my democrat zombie glasses, I believe that bread and butter cars are the key to saving the company.
But that will never happen.
So true Jerseydevil….I have my 2006 SAAB 9-5 wagon/Aero (2nd one and loving it) was thinking…What other GM car could I buy in its place? Really none come to mind….Any ideas here gang?
I don’t want a single car on your list. Ever.
GM can’t copy any one else’s car…in fact, its the other way around.
Classic “longhorn” enthusiest blather (a point here a point there, and a load of bull between).
Biggest falacies.
1: Suggesting they copy all those VWs and Audis. I got news for you, VW/Audi is not kicking the B3’s asses all the way to the poorhouse. Those two are trying to get above “cultish footnote”, where they’ve been for 2+ decades.
2: Forgeting that Ford OWNED Mazda (and still has a fair-sized chunk. Wouldn’t do them any good to kill their niche-player.
3: Trumpeting a bunch of vehicles that AREN’T killing them (a few are), sporty cross-overs aren’t selling much at all, neither are micro-vans. Premium small cars ARE (see there is a point).
Point by point.
Honda Fit: Holding price very nicely and would sell more if they could/would bring more over. More importantly, it doesn’t hurt the sales or image of the Civic above it. Good choice.
Volkswagen Tiguan/Infiniti EX: How many people have even heard of these (let alone drive them)? These aren’t part of the problem, or the solution.
Honda Insight: This isn’t hurting them much. But it does point up the only way to dent the Prius (here or abroad), undercut it (without completely cheaping out).
Audi A4/Volkswagen GTI: Yeah the performance division stuff is a mess, but these things aren’t killing the big 3 (if anything they’re holding down VW).
Mazda MX-5: Ford owned Mazda, GM tried and failed to cut in recently (top/trunk etc). He has a point (but he missed what it was).
Hyundai Genesis/Mazda 5: Neither of these is setting the charts afire. The problem is, there doesn’t seem to be all that much volume in either segment (and the 5 has pricing issues). Besides GM has been bombing down-market for decades, it hasn’t helped.
Subaru Forester: (insert CR-V/RAV4 also). This IS a big point. The B3 have oodles of models in this range, but they are really only competitive with each other. Most of them are in Rental hell by now. They need for one model each to be their “answer” in the catagory and back that one. Compass/Patriot/Nitro was a screw-up of epic proportions (Equinox/Torrent/Vue wasn’t much better).
Down the road, the B3 have to be competive (and profitable) in a class, or get out. Trying to carpet-bomb with multiple inferior variations won’t cut it.
Call me skeptical, but I’m not sure that the actual Cruze interior we get will be as nice as some people would like to assume. The Cruze is, for all intents and purposes, just the Aveo’s big brother and can be had *right now* in Korea as the Daewoo Lacetti (so much for American companies engineering their cars in America).
If I’m not mistaken, the Cobalt was also supposed to have a great interior and look what we actually wound up with.
GM should copy the HYUNDAI GENESIS? Are you SERIOUS?
First of all, the Genesis is a RIPOFF of the Lexus LS and the S -class.
The only thing the Genesis does is “cost less” than the competition and since there is no long term reliability reporting yet for this car, buyers have no idea what they are getting into. And many buyers WOULDN’T BE CAUGHT DEAD IN A HYUNDAI (anything)… and I’m one of them. Benz, BMW, Audi or NOTHING.
GM already has better cars than the Genesis – the STS, the DTS and the Buick. I’d rather have a Chrysler SRT8 than a Genesis.
The Honda Fit is a piece of crap. I’d rather have a Fusion/Fusion Hybrid or a SRT4.
Weird…they picked cars that I’d want GM to benchmark for specific traits, but some of these aren’t really worth copying outright if sales is the goal (as RF pointed out in the article). The three companies that really stand out here (to me at least) are VW, for drivetrain and interior quality and Honda/Mazda for building enjoyable but still mainstream vehicles. Those desirable traits aren’t at all limited to the vehicles mentioned however.
The new Forester is a mystery to me, as I hate it, and the old one was one of my frequent recomendations. Awful transmission (as bad as the competitor’s CVTs) and a cheap feeling interior, I just don’t get why it took MT’s whatever of the year award. A friend’s father just picked one up on a lease a few months ago and he’s livid at the awful blandness of it, and wants it gone.
The EX is nice, but why benchmark the middleman? Just go and get a 3 or 5 series wagon, I’m sure that’s what Nissan did.
The A4? Just target VW if you want the product improvement, but I think GM marketing could learn a thing or two from this brand. In fact, fire GM marketing and poach the German talent.
Now I know what happened to the guy at Forbes who made all those loony Top Ten Car lists. Good to see the stimulus package is helping those without talent stay employed.
Owned a Forrester–I’d give it an A+. Great for mountain roads in winter. Owned an Audi 90 and A4–very enjoyable cars, but quirky. Never owned a Tiguan, but owned two Jettas with no major problems. VW is routinely trashed, here, but they make interesting and generally fun to drive products. I’d rather own something German than Japanese, even given the questionable reliably issues of the former. The latter just don’t seem to have much character, and their Jet Jaguar exteriors, along with Boeing 747 dash designs don’t move me, much. To each his own.
American? My only recent foray into US waters was a Jeep Wrangler. What could be so simple and basic, and what could go wrong?; after all, they’ve been making ’em forever. Verdict: I’ll never own another Chrysler product as long as I live, and could not care less if they go belly up.
Actually I find my Saturn Astra to be a much more compelling car than the Honda Fit (couldn’t call it the Honda Spasm) could ever hope to be. Bringing over Opels to sell as Saturns is a brilliant idea and should be encouraged as well as marketed.
Most of the cars on this list are niche segment cars. GM needs to first be profitable in the bigger segments before making one or two niche market cars (the Corvette and Camaro probably work out as well as niche segment cars anyway). Stop worrying about making a car for every segment and just focus on the bigger segments.
The Fit, Forester, Mazda 5, and perhaps the Genesis are the only cars from a big segment that they need to worry about. And they probably wouldn’t be able to price a Genesis competitor to get near Hyundai.
What an idiot. Why would Detroit need to copy the Tiguan AND the Forester, which are both in the same “compact crossover” AKA hatchbacks-on-steroids category? Sure, they are different because the Forester offers go-anywhere ruggedness and is incredibly practical, and the Tiguan is a Golf on stilts, but the Ford Escape is a genuine alternative in my book, with the boxy shape good for cargo space and visiblity, and is nearly as common as Foresters, despite being on the market for less time, not to mention being more fuel efficient because it comes in 2WD and has a six-speed compared to the Forester’s four-speed (I don’t mention the manual because no one ever gets one over here).
The Vue/new Equinox are good-looking as the Tiguan, but should be slightly thirstier thanks to the big 3.0L engines up front. And the Solstice/Sky are just as common a sight as NC-generation Miatas, and offer that kickass 2.0L turbo engine.
And as for the GTI, the Cobalt SS would kick its ass in a straight line and around the bends and can be had for cheaper and comes in the American’s favorite body style: the sedan. The only reason it wouldn’t sell as well is because it is manual only, and Americans think pushing a pedal and moving a lever to change gear is too damn complicated, but the HHR SS comes with a slushbox, and is a hatch, to boot.
The Infiniti EX is a poor seller, I’ve only seen one on the road since it came out about two years ago, and the SRX is more spacious, by dint of its FWD, and should be better on gas because of the 500cc smaller engine and extra cog in the slushbox. The EX may drive better, but who buys these luxed-up, jacked-up, wagons for driving pleasure?
Mazda 5? What about the Chevrolet Orlando? Or the Ford C-max and S-max, or the Dodge Journey (one size up, but close enough)? The Honda Insight? What about the Chevy Volt? It’s not close in price, but it certainly “out-greens” it and the Prius. And can’t they just put that 2-Mode system in a Cruze?
The Honda Fit? I’d rather get a Fiesta. And GM has the Cruze. And if Buick got a cheap full-on luxury car, what is the point of Cadillac? And from what I’ve read, the MKS is probably better to drive than the Genesis, looks better inside and out, and comes with a stonking 355hp twin-turbo V6 that sips less fuel than the Genesis’ V8. The A4? Uhh, have you seen the new CTS? Better looking than an A4, inside and out, more powerful, comes in RWD, and just as cheap (possibly cheaper) as an A4, but is really an A6/5 series/E class/XF/GS/M35 competitor.
Lack of refinement and sloppy assembly is much more difficult to hide in small light vehicles.
The only way the 2.x can compete is to have them designed and assembled somewhere else.
And then they have to convince us to overlook the bailout welfare and that they can service them.
I would bet against.
Wow, flashpoint; when I see you parked on the hard shoulder in your Mercedes or Audi, broken down, I’ll stop my new Hyundai Sonata to ask if you have a cell phone. Even at -11 degrees F., if you are unlucky enough to have your car fritz out (pun intended) here in NW Michigan in the DEAD of winter (pun intended – coz at -11, you’ll be dead in a matter of about a few hours without heat and shelter).
I’ve read Consumer Reports AND TrueDelta’s ratings AND other ratings from the UK and can advise you that while Audis are moderatly bad, Mercedes cars truly suck. Some BMW’s are only average, which is pretty p*ss poor, given what they cost. But that’s not as inexcusibly bad as Mercedes’ record.
I’d trust a Genesis at -11 to get me where I’m going, but wouldn’t step in a Mercedes in those temps, thanks!
dolorean, I actually took the trouble to WRITE to Honda before the first Fit came off the boat, to mention the fact that they really should use the “Jazz” name here in the states (the alternative name to “Fit” for the same car), since people of my generation would look at the car name and think “seizure” and “epilepsy”. Of course, they ignored me.
No BMW 3-series or E39 M5 on the list?
hrm…
-Ah, well, even if Ze Chermans mailed them the blueprints and gave them the tooling, those 2.8 knuckleheads would somehow manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory anyway.
Next Up: Ten Businesses GM/2.8 Should Copy! :P
Sorry but you lost me on the Honda Fit. Not only is it one of the homeliest looking vehicles other than some Scions and Toyotas but it’s interior is cheap and suffers from black lung, it’s hardly cheap with most examples going out the door for 17-18K for a small penalty box, it has a low calorie engine that only puts out 117 HP which is hardly what I would call fun and with the std 5 speed manual it is only good for 33 MPG on the highway which is 4 LESS than the Cobalt or G5 with 5 speed and required XFE and 2 less than a Ford Focus which is far better looking and offers more features than the Homley Honda.
The Infinity EX- I rarely ever see one of these overpriced odd looking things on the road so obviously folks aren’t lapping them up so whats the point.
The Hyundai Genesis- Pontiac sells a far better looking cheaper same sized competitor with a more powerful V8 option and it’s called the G8. Incidentally a local dealer is selling used Genesis V6 sedans with under 30K miles for $16995 in the used car lot. Meanwhile next door where the new ones are located the sticker is 40K even for the same exact car new! Talk about big 3 depreciation! Holy smokes Batman!
Volkswagon Tiguan- Most folks I talk to don’t even know what this is or ever heard of a Tiguan. Small cute utes are indeed catching on but this one is selling at a snails pace with it’s entry level price over the 25k mark with automatic transmission and higher end models with leather, roof and AWD topping 36K- gasp! And it doesn’t garner very good reviews in many cases. Suddenly a Ford Edge or Chevy Equinox with AWD for well under 30K sounds like a good deal to me and there larger too!
Subaru Forester- indeed a capable vehicle but hardly cheap and it’s mileage and exterior styling can’t match the 2010 Chevy Equinox with it’s more powerful 182 HP 2.4 DI engine which is rated to deliver a class leading 30 MPG on the highway and has the trick rear seat. Plus it’s bigger and with discounts will sell for less than the Forester in the real world.
Oh and anything Volkswagon or Audi spend more time laying on the side of the road or in the shop with oodles of mechanical problems and electrical gremlins so i’ll pass on those three offerings on the list thank you. Not a day goes by when I don’t see a late model German car with it’s blinkers flashing on the side of the road dead on a local highway between two cities.
Cross the Tiguan, Mazda5 and Infiniti EX off the list – GM already has plenty of cars that don’t sell and doesn’t need to copy other manufacturer’s mistakes.
As for the fairy lights on the A4 – is that why people buy it?
Some of the choices are strange. I’m an Infiniti fan, but they blew the design of the EX thinking no one would ever use the back seats, which is why nobody’s buying and I’ve never seen a single one on the road. I see BMW X3s at least once a week.
The Tiguan isn’t that great and its massively overpriced. The Forester has gotten mediocre reviews at best, and most owners of older Foresters seem to hate it. GM will not save itself by competing with the Mazda 5.
Let’s face facts, the only way GM, Ford, and Chrysler can all be profitable in their current forms is for them to sell Expeditions, Suburbans, and Durangos by the bucket load. That’s all they know how to do.
JakeCarolan
Mazda MX-5 – Sky/Solstice, obviously
Problem with the Sky/Solstice is they are so relatively unrefined. Why would I buy them when the Miata is 400 lbs lighter ?
Menno
I actually took the trouble to WRITE to Honda before the first Fit came off the boat, to mention the fact that they really should use the “Jazz” name here in the states (the alternative name to “Fit” for the same car), since people of my generation would look at the car name and think “seizure” and “epilepsy”. Of course, they ignored me.
Interesting. I think Fit is a stupid name, and that Honda Jazz would have been much more more marketable. But I hadn’t thought of the medical implications of Fit. On the other hand, they probably could have named it the Honda Rio and it still would have sold well.
Rev Junkie : And as for the GTI, the Cobalt SS would kick its ass in a straight line and around the bends and can be had for cheaper and comes in the American’s favorite body style: the sedan. The only reason it wouldn’t sell as well is because it is manual only, and Americans think pushing a pedal and moving a lever to change gear is too damn complicated, but the HHR SS comes with a slushbox, and is a hatch, to boot.
You clearly missed the point. If I were looking for the fastest compact/hatch when I bought my GTI, I would be in a MS3 or WRX Sport Wagon. The GTI is a great all around package for fun, style, and practicality. The Cobalt SS may be more fun to drive, but it is hideously cheap on the inside and it feels like a penalty box. I bet the 220 mile drive to my parents’ this weekend w/ my cross bike in the back would be an absolute treat for my wife and I in a Cobalt SS. The HHR with the upright SUV seating and retro-gross styling is not a GTI. Cobalt and HHR = cheap thrills, nothing more. The GTI is an all-around amazing daily driver. That is the difference. If I’m looking for cheap thrills, it will be older, used, and RWD.
David Holzman :
Problem with the Sky/Solstice is they are so relatively unrefined. Why would I buy them when the Miata is 400 lbs lighter?
I think you’re right, I was just pointing out that GM already makes a version of the Miata, in that it’s a 2-seat coupe. The US News guy must not have realized this fact.
Also, I think there definitely is a selling proposition for the Sky/Solstice – in my opinion, they’re much more aesthetically pleasing and more interestingly designed. I guess at the end of the day, you buy a Miata if you want to drive and a Sky/Solstice if you want to be seen.
On a completely unrelated note, whoa I didn’t expect all the Fit hate in here. Say what you will about looks, but it’s a marvelously functional, fun-to-drive little hatch and the undisputed segment leader. Pop one open & play with the magic seat – it’ll blow your mind how roomy that little thing is.
I think this list is spot on. Realise what he’s saying, these are the cars people WANT but can’t afford. While GM does have similar products the point is they’re not nearly as desirable. This may be partially based on their higher price but very little. The cars on the list are what you’ll want to pick up used in a few years.
I don’t see any pickups.
What are the most selling vehicles in the U.S.? Would that be Ford and Chevy pickups? Ok, those two are channel burners that will keep the revenue coming in as long as they are allowed to continue to move with the engineers and keep up with the market instead of being driven by the accountants.
By the way, it took a tremendous amount of courage for Ford management to back the Engineers and allow them to dramatically update their already top-selling pickup not once but twice.
The CFO and accounting minions must have been totally beside themselves when this happened. The stock brokers likely screamed “SKIM THAT CREAM, DON’T INVEST IT IN R&D FOR FUTURE IMPROVEMENTS!” But I digress.
Why leave out copying the Nissan and Toyota smaller pickups? What was with the Chevy 2003-2006 SSR convertible pickup other than a total waste of scarce resources the S10/Colorado is in desperate need of? Both the Colorado and Ranger are two significant generational improvements behind the Frontier and Tacoma.
“Buying American” is truly worthwhile but when it allows GM and Ford to drag the same junk into new model year after new model year without addressing any of the lengthy list of shortcomings, it hurts all of us.
GM’s track record of copying other market leaders isn’t good. They would be better off improving the few top models they do have: large pickups, large suvs, Corvette, Malibu. They might want to consider a really good replacement for the 77-91 Impala-type rear drive full sizer, hopefully unibody with IRS.
I think a true Fit fighter is coming in the Ford Fiesta. Chrysler may have its own B car in the next few years courtesy of Fiat. GM has them but needs to bring them.
I have been saying for years that the Detroit automakers need a dedicated hybrid model instead of just giving existing models hybrid powertrains. Ford seemingly has the ability to do so but hasnt yet. I dont know if GM’s dual mode fits into smaller vehicles, but with the focus on the Volt, GM appears to have missed the reasonably priced hybrid boat.
I also think the Mazda5 type of micro van would be a good idea for the Detroit3. During high gas prices, Mazda5 sales took off, dealers were running out of them. A great vehicle for high gas prices, but a slow seller otherwise.
I basically concur with those who say that Detroit needs to Focus on Volume segments before all else, these other things would be nice only if they get their act together.
Here’s an idea – Detroit should copy GOOD cars, not BAD cars. Define those terms how you wish.
Look, Ford MAKES the Mazda3 for crissake and they haven’t had a decent small car in the US for… well… ever.
The Mazda5 is an awesome little vehicle. They sell 18,000 of them a year. During the gas price spike, that shot up to oh, about, 19,000. I bet GM gives away more cars each year as promos and incentives than Mazda sells M5’s in the US.
It doesn’t matter what they copy if they can’t make a good copy. I could “copy” a Rembrandt painting but I assure you the result wouldn’t be a masterpiece.
The existence of these cars is not a secret to Detroit. They buy them, drive them, take them apart, reverse engineer them, etc. Then the accountants and managers tell them they can’t have the money to do what Toyota or BMW does, and the cars come out crap. They just do not possess the institutional ability to make a quality vehicle, just like my brain can’t tell my hand to paint like Rembrandt or play the cello like Yo Yo Ma.
I don’t really understand all the negativity regarding this list. Sure, the Tiguan and Infiniti are bizarre pics,and the Mazda5 isn’t setting sales records (though it is a fine car that makes much better sense for most consumers than most crossovers.
As to the Miata–well it may not reside in a huge segment, but the car demonstrates what Mazda has been able to do over 20 years–and what GM failed to do with the Solstice. That is, to create a well-rounded, inexpensive sports car. The solstice trounces the miata in looks, but in every other area, it’s not even close.
Same thing with the Cobalt SS. Sure, the thing is blazing fast, and clearly GM prioritized speed, just at they prioritized styling in the solstice (and ended up with that abomination of a folding top). The Cobalt is the modern equivalent of the SRT-4. Yeah, fast as hell, but at the day you’re driving a Neon (Cobalt.)
And what’s with the Fit-hating? As far as I can tell, Honda is selling every one it brings over here. They are still selling at sticker while I see Nissan Versa’s going for $4k off. That’s because, even at it’s relatively steep asking price, the Fit represents the best VALUE in it’s segment, a fact consumers have recognized. Isn’t it in GM’s interest to create cars which, in EVERY segment of the market, sell well enough not to require ludicrous incentives?
The Honda Fit is a piece of crap. I’d rather have a Fusion/Fusion Hybrid
(looking confused) I would rather have nailclippers than sunglasses.
What?
How are the two vehicles related besides having wheels? One is an ultra-practical small hatchback/wagon, the other is an ultra-boring commuter sedan. Two different universes. You want to compare hatches or wagons, go ahead, but Fusion and Fit? Why? Because they start on the same letter?
And Fit is crap? How so, exactly? I agree it is missing a taller sixth gear in a manual, but crap?
This is a list of mostly lower volume vehicles.
The exact kind of cars the “experts” rip GM a new hole for building.
Why would GM copy any VW product with their much lower sales numbers and quality numbers. You can throw Mazda and Subaru in there also.
Now the Hondas and Hyundai are a diffrent story.
I think this guy totally missed the mark. A lot of what he’s got on the list is fairly low volume, and for GM to get back on track, they don’t need niche vehicles. They already have some niche cars that do well in the Corvette and Solstice, and the Camaro will be out soon. GM needs to copy the Corolla or Civic, and the Camry or Accord. And really, regarding the Camry/Accord, they’ve done pretty well with the new Malibu, and if the Cruze is as good as it looks so far, it should be a good contender in its class. If GM gets the volume cars right, nothing else matters. Does anyone really think Mazda makes their money off of the Miata, or that the Tiguan is keeping VW’s lights on? It’s the volume players, midsize and compact cars, that make the money.
RetardedSparks: Ford already did the Camry/Accord benchmark/teardown thing. What they got was the 96 Taurus. [Well documented in the book “Car” by Mary Walton.] So your theory has been validated : Rembrandt via spray can courtesy Ford.
This really should be titled “Cars I think are cool and I’m a pseudo-bigshot mag/blog writer so I’ll tell you about them and make it seem important.
Honda Fit – “There’s nothing in Detroit’s inventory that comes close”
Because I forgot to mention that Chevy’s been selling a 5 door small car since the mid 80s
Volkswagen Tiguan – “Small vehicles can be just as cool as big ones. Cooler, maybe.”
Because sales are way high on this one.
“Infiniti EX – “Quick, name a small, luxury domestic crossover . . . . Trick question. There aren’t any”
And there shouldn’t be.
Quick, name a Japanese full size van or HD pickup!
What segment generates more sales and higher profits?
Audi A4 – “The most common complaint about Audis is that they’re overpriced—precisely the kind of problem an automaker wants to have
I see “unreliable” as the most common complaint
Mazda MX-5 – “Ford and Chrysler in particular ought to pay attention—neither even offers a two-seat roadster.”
GM does.
Volkswagen GTI – “The Chevy Cobalt SS is a GTI imitator, but it’s based on a middling economy car and isn’t nearly as refined. Keep trying.”
Who cares? Cobalt goes like stink, sales are high.
Complain all you want but I’m guessing it outsells the GTI 3 to 1
Hyundai Genesis – “Buick, Chrysler, and Lincoln might want to study Hyundai’s formula, which is to offer the same features and quality as the top Japanese and European brands for thousands less.”
Because cars can be magically priced where you want them without regard to cost.
Mazda 5 – “It’s small for its category, so Detroit’s probably not interested . . . Some analysts think the 5 may actually kick off a new “microvan” category, with copycats like the Kia Rondo. But no domestics, apparently.”
I would just sell a rebadged 5 as a Ford. No development needed
Subaru Forester – “You could pay more for a Chevrolet Equinox or Jeep Liberty, but you’d probably end up wondering why. GM and Chrysler should ask themselves the same question.”
U.S. News and World Report »
Jeep Patriot, Ford Escape
“Both the Colorado and Ranger are two significant generational improvements behind the Frontier and Tacoma.”
Only if you subscribe to the “bigger is better” philosophy.
I say the Colorado is significantly more developed because GM didn’t go the V6 route and admitted that their compact pickup is a “compact” pickup. The crew cab Tacoma and Frontier are behemoths. At over 220 inches long you might as well get a full size
“or that the Tiguan is keeping VW’s lights on? ”
Errr, sure, the same VW that’s selling a rebadged Grand Caravan. That’s the ticket.
When you actually read the whole article and not just the excerpts it gets a little better but a lot worse.
He says the Saturn Vue is being criticized for a cheap interior which is not true of the new Vue. It’s every bit as capable as the Tiguan from what I’ve read.
He mentions the Escape and Fusion hybrid buys says they are too expensive. He says Detroit needs to cut costs or hand hybrids to the Japanese. What is wrong with this man?
I’m no domestic lover, I drive a TSX and an MX-5, but they are making strides, and some of the vehicles he mentions are not exactly sales leaders.
Wow. Talk about an exercise in futility. Obviously (I think), if there is a vehicle that GM should copy, it would be the Camry. Bread and butter. Now, many would point to today’s Malibu, saying it’s as good or better. Maybe so. The Camry, I believe, was introduced in 1983. So, giving the doubt to the new Malibu, that means it took them 25 years to accomplish this.
And, of course, with new vehicle development down to a crawl…
I hope President Hope&Change’s printing press doesn’t run out of ink for along time.
Instead of speaking about the “top cars” from which Detroit automakers could learn, it may have been more interesting to speak about “platform strategies” from which they could learn.
Example: VW Group builds numerous models from the same core Golf platform, sharing engines and technologies, while sprucing up or dumbing down the interior and styling depending on the model’s price point.
Current and expected Golf platform cars (Typ numbers in brackets):
* 2003 Audi A3 Mk2 (8P)
* 2003 Volkswagen Touran (1T)
* 2004 Volkswagen Caddy (2K)
* 2004 SEAT Altea (5P)
* 2004 Volkswagen Golf / GTI / R32 / Rabbit Mk5 (1K)
* 2005 Škoda Octavia Mk2 (1Z)
* 2005 Volkswagen Golf Plus (1K)
* 2005 SEAT Toledo Mk3 (5P)
* 2006 Volkswagen Jetta / Vento / Bora Mk5 (1K)
* 2006 SEAT León Mk2 (1P)
* 2007 Audi TT Mk2 (8J)
* 2007 Volkswagen Eos (1F)
* 2008 Volkswagen Tiguan (5N)
* 2008 Volkswagen Scirocco (13)
* 2009 Audi Q3
* 2009 Volkswagen Golf Mk6 (1K)
Current Golf (extended) platform cars (Typ numbers in brackets):
* 2006 Volkswagen Passat (3C)
* 2008 Volkswagen Passat CC
* 2008 Škoda Superb II (3T)
They make alot of money doing this…
I have one question- What in the hell is a Tiguan? Has anyone ever seen one?
Petty comment here as a GTI owner, but all it needs is a $600 ECU flash and it should be able to hang with the Cobalt SS.
Some valid points, some horribly off the mark.
The current turbo Cobalt SS is a far better mechanical package than the GTI, the control feel and chassis behavior is light-years better than the GTI or the Mazdaspeed3 (or any other Cobalt, the chassis bits are VERY different.) It feels five hundred pounds lighter than the VW and it doesn’t beat you up like the Mazda. Yeah, there’s no four-door hatch, the two-door shape is a Cavalier throwback, and the interior’s so-so.
The last thing GM or anyone else needs is an Infiniti EX.
GM has entries in the Fit, Tiguan/Forester, and Miata space. The problem is they’re all pretty bad. In the Fit/Jazz segment, at least as far as the US market goes, there’s the Fit, and there’s everything else. The Yaris, the Versa, and the Aveo aren’t worth a dime between them.
Of course, when it comes to the Fit and the Mazda5, GM has real competitors for those models in Europe. The Corsa and the Zafira are perfectly nice products. GM doesn’t seem to think they profitably can sell vehicles in those segments in the US.
The Hyundai Genesis is a perfectly nice Infiniti M35/M45-knockoff. A nice car with no character. The Cadillac CTS is at least as good and has the character the Hyundai lacks. The STS isn’t as good, but given some capital investment (iffy at GM) and the current CTS as an example the next one could be.
The Audi A4 isn’t that good a car. They need to be shooting for the E90/E92 3-series and the Lexus IS with their sub-CTS-size Cadillac. If and when they pull the money loose to do one. No FWD platform need apply. GM’s intent to pull the next Cadillac SRX off the Equinox, giving up on trying to do an X5 competitor in favor of slotting it below the Lexus RX, is rather worrisome because the Equinox/Vue ain’t that good, either.
@Menno & @ David Holzman
This is OT, but there is actually a funny and true (but old) story why Honda choose the name ‘Jazz’ in Europe and ‘Fit’ in the rest of the world. Honda’s intention was to use the name ‘Fitta’ world-wide but when press and marketing material was printed they discovered (was told) that that name have a slightly different meaning in Scandinavia. So that is why it became the Honda Fit/Jazz.
Those saying that a Cobalt is comparable to a GTI clearly have not driven both and if they have are not being unbiased, Having owned both Cavaliers, and GTI & GLIs, there is no comparison. GTI is so much more refined. Cobalt SS : lots of HP a good car does not make. There is more to a good car than HP numbers.
As for the Tiguan…where did that come from? I would take a look at a RAV4 or a Mitsubishi Outlander for truly functional small-mid sized CUVs. They even seat up to seven.
saywhat – you haven’t driven one of the turbo Cobalt SSes. Yes, the interior’s nowhere near as good as the GTI, but it’s sooooooo much better to drive. Yes, there’s more to a car than HP numbers, and the current SS (not the old supercharged car) has a chassis that VW can’t touch.
As for the Tiguan, RAV4, etc. – the problem is the RAV4 has grown up to Highlander size, and the Highlander has grown up to…something huge. They don’t HAVE a small SUV any more. The RAV4’s a decent vehicle, but it’s just gotten too big.
Quentin: You clearly missed the point. If I were looking for the fastest compact/hatch when I bought my GTI, I would be in a MS3 or WRX Sport Wagon. The GTI is a great all around package for fun, style, and practicality. The Cobalt SS may be more fun to drive, but it is hideously cheap on the inside and it feels like a penalty box.
Indeed. Great DD, no doubt about it. I enjoy getting into it every morning. All you GTI haters enjoy your penalty box! Two minutes for buying garbage!
MENNO
First of all, I live in NYC, not some backwoods county where I’m in fear of river overflows and 40 inch snow. That’s YOUR problem. Drive whatever you have to.
Secondly, part of the reason Benz and BMW and Audi have bad reliability ratings is because POOR PEOPLE BUY USED BENZES, BMW’S AND AUDI’S AFTER RICH PEOPLE DROVE THEM INTO THE GROUND AND BARELY DID MAINTENANCE ON THEM. AFTER THEIR LEASE IS OVER, THOSE CARS END UP ON A USED CAR LOT WHERE SOME WANNABE RICH PERSON BUYS IT AND THEN HAS LOTS OF PROBLEMS.
That happened to one of my old employees in fact. Idiot bought a BMW 745li, with over 50,000 miles and put 20″ rims on it trying to be cool. Next thing you know he was facing thousands in maintenance charges and ended up getting rid of the car.
If you buy a s-class, A8 or 7 brand new, you most likely aren’t going to have any problems requiring a dealer return.
My S550 4-matic has exactly 23,450 miles on it and I haven’t had ONE PROBLEM YET.
No Hyundai dealer is going to tell me how a Genesis outperforms my car. NO ONE.
Please… The American automakers can barely sell import clones, better less copies.
Present a similar vintage Corolla and Prizm and see which one people will buy. Or for something more current, a Matrix/Vibe.
If GM can’t effectively sell a freakin’ Corolla, they sure as Hell can’t copy something and expect to sell.
My point is, the American automaker’s reputations stink to high heaven. Even quality (read: rebranded) products won’t sell as well as if an import maker were to market it.
There are already enough tough Korean (and soon Chinese) competitors trying to out-Accord the Accord. Don’t go there. And don’t stake your future on the EV/Green thing, either. It might seem like a good idea looking back at the recent oil bubble, but we are not talking about designing a car for the past.
Better yet, develop something really different. How about a modern-day Griswold Family Truckster, complete with roof-mounted luggage kit? How about a pair of $12,000 three wheelers, one resembling a sporty Kawasaki Ninja and the other a rugged 1980s Honda ATC with modest trail-riding pretensions? Perfect for that mid-life-crisis-on-a-budget second car.
I am serious. If this sounds like a desperate plan, well, that’s because it is.
Flashpoint
First off, the Genesis and the S-Class have a difference in price point of over $50,000 dollars. That you mentioned them in the same sentence shows that Hyundai has succeeded in a big way. The Genesis competes with near-luxury models, and the Avalon and Maxima.
Second, if a car has reliability problems at 50,000 miles, no matter how it was maintained, it’s unreliable. A typically reliable car will last longer than that without an oil change (and then blow up). Your S-class has 23k? That’s a baby car. Call me in another 75k and we’ll talk reliability.
Sure, you might not think it matters if you’re only keeping the car until 50k (In this economy?), but Mercedes and BMW and Audi have cliff-side depreciation compared to, say, Lexus, and you’re bound to lose a lot of money.
Ctoan
The Genesis copied the S-classes interior design as much as possible so YES, it can be mentioned in the same sentence just as a Chrysler 300 can be with a Bentley.
——Second, if a car has reliability problems at 50,000 miles, no matter how it was maintained, it’s unreliable.—–
no matter how it is maintained? What are you smoking? I’d like some !
And the only poorly designed Benz I’ve seen was the S500 which was a rush development to compete with the 745. Older S-classes are STILL trouble free after 140,000 miles and I know people who own classic S’s and still have them on the road.
N8iveVa
Yes I do. And I have evidence its true.
Flashpoint
More lower income people buy inexpensive cars and don’t properly maintain them so i think the reliability playing field is more than even. Merc, Bimmers, and espcially Audi really aren’t rated that great on average, and when you factor in the higher cost for admission, it gets even worse.
Flashpoint
More lower income people buy inexpensive cars and don’t properly maintain them so i think the reliability playing field is more than even. Merc, Bimmers, and espcially Audi really aren’t rated that great on average, and when you factor in the higher cost for admission, it gets even worse. A $25k Camry (as mush as i loathe them) on average has a much better record than the majority of German cars costing at least twice the price.
Also, I think there definitely is a selling proposition for the Sky/Solstice – in my opinion, they’re much more aesthetically pleasing and more interestingly designed. I guess at the end of the day, you buy a Miata if you want to drive and a Sky/Solstice if you want to be seen.
The aesthetics of the Kappa Platform cars is part of their problem. The hydroformed body panels are so expensive to make, that GM can’t begin to consider selling them at a profitable price (At least according to a Program Manager I know who worked on the program).
The problem with attempting to copy cars from the list is that the copy will always be a generation behind the benchmark. The better idea would be to learn from some of these examples. For example, the main lesson from the Hyundai Genesis is large V8 RWD car AND upscale styling at a moderate price. The Pontiac G8 could have been built as a more upscale expensive looking Buick vs. Pontiac with “boy racer” cheap looking styling. Similarly, there is a theme of relatively small and fun to drive in the list. Would be nice to see a good compromise between refinement and cost vs. the current born to be a rental car domestic small cars. Maybe the US market will not support the cost of Ford and GM European models, but it will support a relatively fun to drive Honda Fit vs. the bland Chevrolet Cobalt.
Flashpoint
If you feel like taking the semantics of my statement at face value, then yes, I suppose you could “mention them in the same sentence.” Still, you were making a comparison, which is pointless when one car costs more than twice as much as the other.
And, as I said, there are a handful of cars that will make it safely to 50k with absolutely no maintenance at all, if you’re so inclined, and many more that will make it that far with only the occasional trip to the 15-minute oil shack. A car that can’t do that is unreliable. I’m not sure where you’ve been hiding, but 50k is now a fairly low mileage, less than halfway and possibly a third of the way through the average car’s life.