KTAR.com reports that Phoenix, Arizona, police have arrested a suspect in the fatal shooting of a civilian photo radar operator. According to the Arizona Department of Public Safety (DPS), witnesses called police to Phoenix Arizona’s Loop 101 and Seventh Avenue at approximately 9 pm last night. They found operator Doug Georgianni, 51, dead from multiple gun wounds. The victim worked for Australia’s RedFlex Traffic Systems Inc., which operates photo radar vehicles for the AZ DPS. Police viewed the tape made by the radar van immediately after the shooting, and traced a gray and white Chevy suburban with a roof rack carrying a spare tire to a suburban driveway. They arrested its owner, 68-year-old Tom De Stories. Redflex pulled its 40 radar vehicles on state highways out of service until further notice.
Horrible.
My respects to Mr. Georgianni and his family.
To the wall for Mr. De Stories if he is really the guilty party.
I don’t think my true feelings can be expressed in this forum.
What in the world happened?! Sad to hear.
Tom De Stories needs a police defense attorney. “It was dark, and I thought the radar gun was a real gun.”
De Stories is a bigger man than I am…well done.
@liechter and no_slushbox
I think that taking that job is a sign of poor character, however shooting Georgianni (assuming opposition to the cameras was the reason) was as cowardly and stupid as spitting on a returning serviceman during the Viet Nam era. If De Stories had a pair he would have gone after Redflex executives and the legislators who brought those crooks in.
Well- I hate to see this. But then again, this is what is to be expected for reviving the old Vigilante-type law enforcement.
This guy from Australia I take was a civilian?
Why is a civilian performing the duty of a law enforcement official?
Oh, I see…for money. Profit. Yes, it’s Vigilante-ism all over again.
How much money is on YOUR head?!?!
hmmmm
Did you know many of the prisons in the U.S. are now run by commercial outfits? Try reading up on Wackenhut:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wackenhut
Guess what people? It’s in “their” best interest to toss you in prison for life for smoking 3 joints (3 strikes!!). Who do you think lobbies for these laws? The prison industries of course.
When the profit motive replaces honest law, you can be sure the people will get screwed. And you wonder why incidents like this occur?
“well done”
Really? Random killing of employees is fairly well along in the spectrum of responses, no? Besides, companies like Redflex are best killed by the media. Or in courts of law. I’ll be curious to see how this plays out though, tragic as it is.
I doubt he was Well Done. I’m guessing either Rare or Medium-Rare.
I don’t think anyone here supports speed cameras, especially this type of implementation; however, the sheer insensitivity of some of you really does astound me.
It’s irrelevant in this instance. This man didn’t deserve to die, based on what I think we’re all assuming is the story.
They were probably right to pull the trailers until further notice. I wouldn’t have been surprised, after this incident, for someone to ram their car into one of the trailers or such, or maybe start to set these things on fire after chaining the door shut, or something. Basically, some sort of widespread murderous rage against the operators of these things.
At least now he can get his trial by jury in Arizona.
I guess I wasn’t too surprised that some people here would express approval at this murder, because I know none of us like radar vans or red-light cams. However, it is absolutely monstrous and outside the bounds of humanity to commend De Stories, as liechter did. Your comment made you sound like either a madman or a beast. I’m going to hope that this was a poorly thought-out instant response, a bit of misjudged knee-jerkery, because otherwise, it’s an absolutely horrible and shameful thing to say and stand by.
Nobody deserves to be killed for sitting in a van clocking speeders. I don’t agree with the policies that brought this situation about, but that doesn’t mean that anyone deserves to die because of it, least of all the employee who sits in a van for a living.
To express approval or even acceptance of such an act is terrible, awful and beyond the scope of acceptable social behavior. Disgusting.
This only surprises me in that it’s taken this long for this to happen.
There are a lot of unhappy people out there. Tickets like these – issued with no appeal and no recourse – leave people feeling powerless. A very bad thing in this political and economic environment.
I’m not happy that it’s happened.
We will see more of this.
A few of the towns in the Seattle area are rife with red light cameras – Lynnwood, for example, might be an excellent place for some target shooting. And it would only be shooting at inanimate objects, not human beings.
Jacksonville, Florida uses unsworn, unarmed and unbadged “Community Service” people to run the speed detection devices and write the tickets.
Fact is, IMO, sworn, armed, vested and trained LEO’s should be involved when a human is required to monitor traffic enforcement.
I doubt you will not find a real objection to the above form any LEO Agency chief or State Accredidation Agency in the US, except Duval County, Florida. Duval is saving salary money.
An incident like the described in the article above could very easily happen in Jacksonville, especially if a bad guy gets waved over, not speeding, because the civilians do not know laser from radar from sonar. They walk up like Shriners with a bucket and then keep you on site for 45 minutes.
Could happen.
This is Not Good but, unfortunately, inevitable. I’m just surprised that it wasn’t Texas.
I feel bad the man died- he ended up taking the blow for a system of corrupt policies and procedures.
That said, by the same token, everyone behind these scams had better listen up- it’s driving the general population to act out. You can’t simply pile on the crap and expect people simply to take it- eventually they’re going to be driven to a breaking point where they can no longer function legally. The lawmakers should be held just as responsible for this man’s death.
If I were the vics family, I’d sure sue the crap out of RTS on the grounds that this outcome was eventually a forgone conclusion and highly disporportionate level of training and equipment exists between a RTS employee and a police officer. The company did very little to ensure the safety of its employees given a clear alternative example (police) for how to adequately do the exact same job.
re: Detroit-Iron:
If US military service people can be equated with the employees of a for profit foreign corporation then this country has lost its compass.
I’m a proponent of the rule of law; Tom De Stories should be tried and given the appropriate sentence given his mens rea (state of mind), either 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.
This guy is no coward, a coward pays his Redflex ticket.
He may be stupid, but not because he got caught. He’s 68, maybe he’s about to lose his house, maybe he has no pension or savings – I seriously doubt he did this thinking he would get away with it.
What would make him stupid is if this helps Redflex and the speed camera movement, instead of hurting it. But I doubt that it will have any effect either way.
This appears to be some old guy that was tired of life and took one mercenary for a morally corrupt company with him.
I would be really interested to know if he had any priors.
When hard working, law abiding people are conned out of their money and then turned into criminals by profiteers then this kind of thing will happen.
If any good comes out of this Redflex with be sued for enough money, for not protecting its employee or for putting its employee at unreasonable risk, that it has to reassess the profitability of this line of business.
It’s reasonable to object to intrusive government.
It’s reasonable to protest the government that implements such programs as Red light and/or speed cameras.
It’s reasonable to implement a grassroots effort to oust the politicians who adopt programs more intended for revenue generation than public safety.
This was not reasonable. This was wrong.
Why is everyone assuming he was Australian just because of who he worked for? Not that it matters.
It’s murder and sad and wrong. I agree with SteelEddie, but you forgot Rastus.
SteelEddie
would you say the same thing perhaps of the founders of your nation – Patrick Henry or Sam Adams perhaps. I believe a number of them went around pamphetering anonymously.
Am I crazy or did I just read justification against supporting murder with an argument for wishing murder upon someone? (EDIT: Well… comment was removed so maybe the contradiction was realized.)
I think if people extracted themselves from the whole morality of the argument and saw human nature for what it is (complete in all its gory detail), they might have a chance of preventing these actions in the future.
Thinking “only crazy people would do such a thing” doesn’t make it not happen. Taking action to not inflame human nature or plan for the downsides if you do are truely thinking.
Of course, maybe I’m naive for thinking that I can make others think in such a way. (But that is human nature as well, is it not?).
Well, now that I’ve successfully argued against arguing at all, I’m feeling quite Zen.
My condolences to the family of the dead man.
Ironically,earlier today I posted a link in the story about corruption in Maryland and traffic cameras.
Honestly; if you haven’t read this story, go to it. Notice the part where Gerald says “people who have nothing to lose – lose it” (i.e. go nuts).
http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2009-04-19/_America_lives_in_a_fascist_state____Gerald_Celente.html
I’m concerned that we’ll be seeing a lot more of this kind of thing in this country.
We the people are very rapidly losing our country. Correction: we have lost our country. It is no more. It ceased breathing the second Tuesday in November, and the brain-waves stopped on January 20th. (No, I’m not Repugnican, either, just in case you are going to start in on me). We’d be just as dead had McPain gotten in; he was merely a whitebread version of BO. The deck was stacked by the powers that be.
The powers that be keep pushing and pushing – it won’t be long before they find out what happens when a not-so-silent majority lashes out because – a) they’re backed into a corner and b) they have nothing to lose. In fact, this might even be considered the first shot. Literally. We don’t know the mind of the killer.
Just a few minutes ago, I got done reading an article which essentially says that Christian pastors belonging to Bible believing churches will soon be open to prosecution in the United States of America – essentially nullifying the 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. (Why should the 14th be any different than the rest of the document, which over the past 24 years has been totally shredded?)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=95296
In plain English, this law will pass and homosexuals will have rights; Christians will not (until later at which point the homosexuals are likely to lose their rights and muslims keep theirs, but that’s for later….)
This ‘hate speech’ legislation is set to pass in the Senate this spring. At the speed things are digressing, it won’t be weeks but days before a test persecution will come about.
Assuming that this blatantly unconstitutional law will be left to stand, three things will happen with true Christians in this country; we’ll either leave; or we’ll go underground, as in Vietnam, red China, the old Soviet Union, or in Muslim nations; or we’ll go to ‘re-education kamps’ set up by Bush & Co and now run by BO & Co. Twiddle dee & twiddle dum. Or is it the other way around?
What has this to do with the story above?
Think this story is bad? Just wait and see how bad things get without the foundational strength of Judeo-Christian civilization.
Put another way, a ship without a rudder in a storm soon will hit the rocks.
This incident was only a mere harsh wave slapping the bottom of the boat.
Did it get your attention and start you thinking? You might just want to write your congressman about ‘hate speech’ legislation and how it is unconstitutional. Taking away “my” rights because you might disagree with what I think or say, opens you up to the exact same thing in the future. Doesn’t it?
A government which simply can’t resist passing illegal laws, is by definition an illegitimate government. That’s what I mean when I say this nation is dead; we’re not a nation of legitimate law any longer. We’ve lost our Republic.
Moreover, the veneer of civilization is far less deep than people think, and total anarchy is only a short scrape away. That thin layer of civility and law is all that protects any of us…
The government has been muscling in on the crime business for years. First they took over the numbers game with the state lotteries. That worked so well that they’ve decided to take over highway robbery.
Killing someone over this is despicable. What needs to be done is to fight this in the courts and with the ballot box. In the short term, the single best thing to do is to alter your driving behavior so as to not become a victim. If we starve the bastards, they will eventually give it up.
SteelEddie’s post is gone and I wonder whose decision that was. It would be interesting if RF’s anti-flaming policy only applies to posters saying inflammatory things about other posters and not to posters claiming the grisly, completely unjustifiable murder of a man was a good deed and worthy of admiration. SteelEddie might have gone over the edge, but no more than someone who says it was somehow a justifiable act of patriotism or protection from government to kill an innocent person.
HEATHROI, Patrick Henry and Sam Adams played a part in freeing the United States from British Rule in the 1770s. They shared ideas and political philosophy and helped to awake the colonists to the possibility of freedom through self-governance and liberty. It is no parallel, it is no brave act to support a killer and celebrate the death of an innocent person as liechter and no_slushbox have done in this forum. Do not compare the pamphlets of the founders of this country with the hateful ravings of a forum post.
It is a terrible and monstrous thing to deny solace to a widowed woman who had to listen to her husband’s violent death. This was a man who picked up a second job for extra income in these difficult economic times; he was not a representative of a company that some would say infringes on our right to speed recklessly on the highway, nor was he a member of the government that hired that company. This was an innocent man who was killed by a terrible, awful person and there is no justification for it.
It is embarrassing and shameful that this post has attracted people condoning this killing. It is unfortunate that so many other commenters have chimed in with ambivalence. This was an absolutely reprehensible act and to say otherwise is to support anarchy and murder. There are many avenues of conflict resolution in this country, and only the absolutely worst among us consider violence a positive route.
jakecarolan:
It would be interesting if RF’s anti-flaming policy only applies to posters saying inflammatory things about other posters and not to posters claiming the grisly, completely unjustifiable murder of a man was a good deed and worthy of admiration.
Correct.
RF rules! Literally. Rules strong like law. ;-)
LOL@no_slushbox
Menno: Think this story is bad? Just wait and see how bad things get without the foundational strength of Judeo-Christian civilization.
Menno, I’m sorry I have to strongly disagree with you on this, and I hope you do not take this personally because I so often read your posts with great interest. Denmark is one of the least religious countries in the world, and one of the most civilized. Same goes for Sweden. A sense of morals is something that exists naturally in humans. Hunter-gatherers had to have it to survive in their groups, and they did, and do. We are social beings, and part of being social is understanding that other people have feelings, can be hurt, and having the ability to empathize. It is part of human nature, even in the absence of religion. I know personally, because I am an atheist, have been since I was 9, and I have a very strong moral sense. Also, in my observations of how the world works, I don’t get the impression that religious people are any more moral than atheists and agnostics, although I do know that there are some very wise priests and rabbis (but by no means all).
And while I am not prepared to judge the hate speech legislation without reading it carefully, I object to anyone saying nasty things about homosexuals, especially men (or women) of the cloth, because of their implicit (and explicit) authority. Even if they think homosexuality is somehow wrong, they have a responsibility to be extremely careful not to incite violence against homosexuals.
I guess I also feel that for those who feel the Judeo-Christian tradition gives them a foundation–which I respect–I don’t think these laws are going to take it away.
And now, gentlemen and gentle ladies, lets start our engines!
The operator had a wife and children. He was only 3 months into the job, working at night, trying to make a living. Maybe we don’t like the idea of traffic cameras or have strong feelings against the politicians that installed them but that was not the operators fault.
I find it incredible that anyone would condone this. If anyone feels this was justified, or takes any glee in what happened I hope you find another place to hang out besides TTAC.
RF, are you reading these posts?
Besides fighting speed cameras in the courts, it might not hurt to call the Embassy of Australia and tell them that Redflex is giving their country a bad name in ours. The number is 202-797-3000. The media office, which might be especially sensitive to bad publicity, is 202-797-3255.
I want to add my voice to those condemning the murder, and extend condolences to the family. What a horrible thing for all of them.
I feel for the man in the van, but this was almost an inevitable conclusion to highway robbery.
jakecarolan :
There are many avenues of conflict resolution in this country, and only the absolutely worst among us consider violence a positive route.
When the system fights dirty, affecting change via the established means is ineffective. It is important to draw a distinction between the means used and the goal of the action. Positive actions without efficacy pale beside ‘negative’ means that spur change.
All of that being said, I believe that killing a man who was simply operating a camera van is beyond any bounds of justifiable action, and if proven guilty Mr De Stories should be punished for his alleged crimes. Sabotaging equipment is one thing, taking a human life is quite another.
It is easy, especially in these times of decreasing liberties and increasing bills to want to lash out, but killing a man who was just doing a job for a paycheck, and probably had no part in the state’s poor choice to use the cameras in the first place hurts the cause far more than it helps, plus it is just plain wrong.
I hope we see continued opposition to speed and traffic cameras through political avenues, protests, and activities which cause the cost of business to go up for the companies operating these scams, but not at the cost of lives.
While I don’t condone this haneous act, and not even the vandalism that has also occurred, it was only a matter of time that someone would rebel like this. It’s a draconian practice by the government, and I hope Redflex and the State get their arses sued off. There is a part of me (the mean streak) that might say “ain’t karma a beeeatch.” But, who knows this may not even be about a ticket… there isn’t enough info here.
It says poorly of TTAC to allow people to condone murder through comments such as “Well done”, yet sensor others for ridiculing that position. I don’t care that they were flamming other posters, or how they said it.
I fully expect this post to be deleted, as commenting on the editorial policies of TTAC is apparently a much more heinous crime than supporting murder. With my post, goes me.
I pass by the mobile vans/fixed cameras everyday in Phoenix, so I have strong feelings about the shameless Redflex/ATS/local gov’t cash grab collusion. But… I can’t condone this type of action. It’s inexcusable.
I think a big question here is what is an unprotected, unarmed, untrained civilian doing in a vehicle that is clearly marked to represent a DPS vehicle? That automatically makes him a target for some lunatics. Redflex and DPS must take responsibility for that. I hope they get their asses sued off for their greed.
Nothing surprises me anymore. Neither did this sad event, for reasons already surmised and for other reasons.
I’m not sad. Vigilante justice is justice nonetheless. People die every day in support of a just cause. Unfortunately that is the best way to make people listen.
The Court of the Gun dispenses yet more ‘justice’. The Court of the Gun somehow makes blatant murder somehow ‘heroic’.
Absolute insanity.
If you think these speed cameras are a sufficient outrage to justify taking life, then take your own. Nothing can justify taking another’s life.
shaker:
The Court of the Gun dispenses yet more ‘justice’. The Court of the Gun somehow makes blatant murder somehow ‘heroic’.
Tom De Stories was the (suspected) “Court”. The method was the “Gun”.
Blame the man, not his method. It would be no better if he used a knife.
Awful, horrific. The guilty party should be jailed for life.
Unfortunately, this type of thing is inevitable. You can incite rage by invading peoples’ privacy and creating a nanny state. Perhaps the government should stop intruding so much and go back to the way things were in the 70’s.
Completely out of moral bounds.
Cameras firms are unpopular but many of their employees are probably naive and just trying to make a living.
Non-violent civil disobedience and the politcal process can remove cameras. I hope the shooter gets the needle.
menno,
You seem to be coming from a mindset that western “civilization” is inherently good. Can you be so certain about that?
You comments about “homosexuals” is very disturbing to me. I would bet there are as many varieties of sexualities as there are people on the planet. Why are you concerning yourself with just one particular category that in and of itself, is an inaccurate generalized label? I have enough gay friends and relatives, that I cannot feel some distress at what you wrote. What you represent as “love” does not feel that way to me. I have no way to know your mind, so this following statement is not about you. I strongly suspect many of the most vociferous homophobes in fact deep down, have some element of gayness in themselves. They are not scared of others so much as they are in fact scared of themselves.
Human suffering results when we wrongly label something or someone, and then act on it.
That Man in the radar van was wrongly labelled and victimized by another. Where is the benefit for any one in that situation?
I hope this is not a mistaken label on my part. The traffic cameras appear to be an unfair and in some cases demonstrably dangerous way to generate revenue. There are far better ways.
Well, ttacgreg, take a peek at what nice things Mr ‘Amadogonjihad’ from Iran had to say about Jews in the UN just yesterday, and you’ve pretty well answered your own question. Recalling that Mr Adolph Hitler and his Nazi party members were essentially followers of a satanic type cult of belief, as evidenced by their actions.
Or you could read ‘Barbarous Apes In Suits of Silk’ for an idea of what I was trying to say, but is said far better by this writer.
http://www.thereturnofscipio.com/?p=1663
Menno,
I agree with your third paragraph. And I respect true Christians. But I don’t think homosexuality is a sin. It’s natural. Occurs in every culture, and in most species of animal. Between consenting adults, no-one is hurt. I consider myself gay in the same sense President Kennedy was a Berliner.
I have to agree with you to some extent on the benefit of the J-C Foundation. But some of our democratic principals come from the Algonquins, interestingly enough.
Once again, I recommend calling the Australian Embassy, 202-797-3000 or more directly, their media people, 202-797-3255, and telling them that Redflex is harming their country’s reputation in ours.
Murder is wrong, and we should not condone it. If the suspect is guilty, convict and sentence him. That’s a given.
At the same time, we should be wary of Redflex and the government using this incident as a moment of martyrdom that will be used to uphold the virtuousness of the speed camera program. Look at the statement made by a Redflex representative: “We are grateful for his service to the company and for his service to the public, more importantly, doing an important job, during which he was ruthlessly killed.”
That’s exploitative crap, and we should call them on it. The victim was not a public servant, and it is certainly debatable that his job was “important.” While he certainly didn’t deserve to be killed for it, he wasn’t exactly rescuing kittens from trees, either.
When employees die, companies are not usually inclined to describe their deaths as some sort of blow against the public interest. The fact that Redflex would spin it that way gives you a sense of what this outsourced enforcement industry is all about.
We should be wary of any business that profits from accusing citizens of breaking the law, particularly when they help to set the parameters of what defines a violation. Killing is wrong, but we shouldn’t let the company slide, either.
When I lived in Australia I used to see these manned speed cameras traps all the time. I would think to myself “This would never work back home in the States because they could never find anyone would be dumb enough to risk being shot to babysit a camera.”
Then when I came back home I found that AZ, all states, started running manned speed cameras operated by a private company. I knew right then it was just going to be a matter of time before someone got shot.
Looks like I was just proved right.
David H
wouldn’t waste your long distance plan. Redflex runs systems all through Australia and NZ they’ll merely file your complaint in the round bin.
so the American Revolution was an merely some sort of intellectual flap over who would rule, London or Washington. Hmmm. Interesting.
I’m against the use of photo radar, but murder is murder, and it’s wrong.
But why do I have the feeling that there is more to this story than, “Angry motorist expresses opposition to photo radar by killing employee of the company implementing it”?
I’m not glad to hear what happened to the operator, but I am glad they pulled all of the vehicle cameras for now.
HEATHROI so the American Revolution was an merely some sort of intellectual flap over who would rule, London or Washington. Hmmm. Interesting
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. What I’m saying is that some of our democratic institutions owe a debt to the Algonquins. I haven’t vetted this site, but it will probably give you an idea
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
or maybe this
forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-93484.html
a few months old, but interesting, nontheless. These Scamera companies are attempting to shortcut the legal proces, and ursurp authority they do not posses nor deserve.
http://localism.com/blog/tx/posts/814853/Red-Light-Tickets-Have
“they want to live by the technicalities, they get to die by the technicalities”
ctoan : If you think these speed cameras are a sufficient outrage to justify taking life, then take your own. Nothing can justify taking another’s life.
I strongly disagree with your last sentence. The most obvious example: break into my house when I’m home and you will likely be justifiably killed. As long as you’re facing me when I take you out, and I claim that I feared for my life, even our wussy courts will agree that it was justified. However, I agree that Georgianni did not deserve to die for being employed by a photo radar company.