TTAC’s very own Paul Niedermeyer writes:
I bought my ’05 Scion xB two years ago (used) with 15k miles. Perfect condition; mommy driver. Within a couple of weeks, I started hearing a chirping sound when the clutch was not engaged (pedal up); it stopped as soon as I put some pressure on the pedal. Bad throw-out bearing! Dealer confirms, replaces bearing, resurfaces flywheel, and throws in a new clutch as “goodwill gesture.” I’m very happy with how I was treated (it was under warranty, of course). They tell me these bearings hardly ever fail; I must have gotten a fluke bad bearing.
Fast forward two years: (now) and another 15k miles. The chirping is BACK!! Exactly in the same time frame (two years) and mileage (15k miles). I’m a fanatic about not riding the clutch pedal. Never abuse the clutch. I intend to keep this car for the long haul. And now the warranty is out (clutch not covered by powertrain warranty). I’m going to try to negotiate something with Toyota.
My question: It utterly defies my understanding and logic for this to happen. I can’t come up with an explanation. Is it possible that there is something (weird) about my car that is causing this, like in the (hydraulic) linkage, or??? If this is going to happen every 15k, I gotta get rid of this car, which I don’t want to do. Can anyone offer me an explanation? Something to use as leverage with Toyota?
Sajeev answers:
Holy karmic retribution, Batman! I had better play nice with the Lincoln MKS lest my land yacht also face an ironic mechanical malaise.
Like you said, the connection between the clutch and the clutch pedal is the suspect. Since it’s hydraulic, I’d look at the master/slave cylinder. From what (little) I know about these systems, they are either self-adjusting or have very few adjustment points.
So verify what can be adjusted then check if the cylinder is moving when you push on the clutch pedal. Maybe it’s clogged (from contaminated fluid) and needs to be replaced? Or the system needs to be flushed? No matter, you are on the right track.
I am very interested to hear from the B&B on this, as TTAC’s own 24 Hours of LeMons car (a 1973 Datsun Z) has a similar clutch engagement problem.
[Send your techno-mechanical queries to sajeev.mehta@thetruthaboutcars.com]
isn’t the clutch engaged when the pedal is “up” or not depressed?
That does sound very unlike the xB. Of course, I’m not 100% familiar with the box, since I drive a tC. You can head over to ScionLife.com to see if there are any similar reports.
Say, while I don’t think this should lead to throwout bearing failure @ 15k, do you keep the clutch down constantly at stoplights? That is, instead of putting it in neutral and taking your foot off the clutch at a redlight, are you one of those drivers who keep it in first constantly while holding down the clutch the whole time? Or even worse, hold the car on a hill for a long time with the clutch? I know you said you didn’t abuse the clutch, but I just have to ask since people’s definition of “abuse” differs.
It happened twice, you say, so the simple answer is a Toyota design flaw/problem. By the way they handled the engine sludge issue, and because of the low volume of this model, the truth will likely to be never acknowledged by Toyota.
Paul,
While not a very common failure point, I have personally experienced a throwout bearing failure on my 89 Integra, and it is no fun. Most likely it was a cheap bearing. That being said, if the bearing isn’t packed with grease properly it can fail early as well..
Also, the bearing is only engaged when you foot is on the clutch pedal, so cars that are driven in city traffic frequently (especially bumper-to-bumper) will be more likely to have it fail. Personally, I use neutral at stop lights as much as possible, and even use the “unloaded transmission-throw into neutral” technique when coming to a stop light so as to eliminate 1 clutch pedal stroke.
You may look at an aftermarket clutch and bearing, something like Centerforce or ACT as they make quality parts.
Paul:
CHECK THE LAWS IN YOUR AREA…regarding having something fix under warranty, and then having the same exact problem reappear a few years later.
I have read that if you have something fixed under the factory warranty, and the problem happens again, that repair should still be covered.
I don’t know if this is a wives tale or not, but worth looking into.
Original Toyota clutch fluid used to be nasty stuff that needed to be flushed out. I used to think it was fish oil because of the way it smelled.
More likely the PO did not know how to drive a stick in traffic and kept a foot on the pedal most of the time.
I always go into neutral for lights, and never hold the car on a hill with the clutch. I have enough experience (and self-awareness) to know with certainty that it’s not my driving style. And the first time was right after I bought it.
The xB is mechanically identical to the Echo/Yaris. 100k miles on these clutches is common/typical. They have no known weakness in this (or any) area. I’ve checked scionlife website. Dealer has never seen this. Which is why I wonder if there could be something odd about my car to cause this. I don’t know exactly what that would be; that’s why I’m asking.
Sajeev, The karmic retribution hadn’t crossed my mind until now. I tested that xB right before the bearing went the first time. At this dealer. Maybe they slipped me a bad one, as punishment??
Maybe somethings bent/hanging up causing a twisting load on the bearing when the clutch is pushed in. Could be a small defect, as it takes so long for the bearing to fail.
Paul Niedermeyer : Sajeev, The karmic retribution hadn’t crossed my mind until now. I tested that xB right before the bearing went the first time. At this dealer.
Paul, I am no Hindu scholar, but it sounds like you really stepped in it. Methinks Toyota’s PR machine and CRM system work well together..and they should be feared. :)
I will second eamiller’s remark: hit the aftermarket for more information. If they use a different throw out bearing with a heavier duty (street-spec) clutch, pull the trigger.
Two possibilities come to mind:
1) It’s just a coincidence that you had two bad throwout bearings. It happens.
When I turned wrenches on BMWs we had one customer with a bad cooling fan clutch. We replaced it, he came back 2 weeks later with the same problem. We replaced it again, he came back a few weeks later with the same problem. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Something like the 6th or 7th fan clutch fixed the problem.
2) The noise may not be the throwout bearing. Manual transmission Lexus SC 300s have a problem where the clutch linkage (between the slave cylinder and the clutch) ‘chirps’ until the clutch pedal is depressed. Lubricating the linkage pivot points/joints gets rid of the noise.
Might the same thing be happening to your Xb?
I’ve had a couple of experiences with hydraulic clutches. On a 1964 International pickup (with Scout 4-banger and transmission) I had a hard time on starting to get the transmission to shift from neutral into first or reverse. I found that if I pumped the clutch pedal a few times it worked fine, thus: bad clutch cylinder.
My 84 RX7, when the clutch cylinder failed, had the clutch pedal go to the floor and stay there. If I could pull it up by hand the clutch would engage.
I think buzzliteyear’s idea to look for other places in the linkage that might squeak is a good one.
NA Miatas have a similar problem. A little lube where the clutch slave touches the release fork makes it go away. Perhaps the same thing here?
Also check that the clutch pedal is properly adjusted with respect to the master cylinder. You want to make sure that when the pedal is up the slave is fully retracted.
Having hydraulic issues on my 240SX clutch may prove useful after all. If you have a damper in your clutch line, lose it. It is highly unnecessary. Sadly, it is not the cause of your problem, I just don’t like them in general. An undamped hydraulic clutch is much like a non-ABS brake system. The only time the clutch fluid (typically just brake fluid anyway) does anything is when you push on the clutch, the spring action of the pressure plate should push the pedal up assuming the seals are good. Once set initially, it auto adjusts.
Now, onto your problem. The way to adjust a hydraulic clutch is actually at the pedal where it attaches the the master cylinder. There should be a threaded shaft coming from the clutch master cylinder and a lock nut to hold it in place. By loosening the locknut and turning the shaft you can adjust the dead area at the top of the pedal stroke. Check for specific specs, but it should be 1/4″-1″. If there is no dead play it may cause excessive wear to the throwout bearing. This should be checked and adjusted every time a new clutch is fitted, but otherwise should not be touched. My guess is maybe it was not set correctly at the factory and the dealer never adjusted it either. I’d look here first, and you will need a new throwout bearing.
Also, the bumper to bumper may only be 3/36, but isn’t the powertrain warranty 5/60? The clutch is a wear item, but I don’t know where the T/O bearing comes into play. Replacing a cltuch and T/O bearing in anything is not fun.
My money is on a crappy bearing being replaced by another crappy bearing which if you buy your next replacement from Toyota will also be a crappy bearing. Toyota has followed Detroits lead and cut costs by buying parts with a die when the warranty is up life cycle. This policy leads to some parts that fail before the warranty. My guess is Toyota bought a shit load of these bearings and doesn’t want to scrap them so they replace them with the same and cross their fingers.
If for some reason the clutch mechanism isn’t being completely released when your foot is off the pedal, that can cause premature throw-out bearing wear. It is possible that this is what caused the first bearing to wear out prematurely as well. If so, the repairing dealer missed the root cause and just cured the symptom.
There may be an adjustment at the slave cylinder to clutch fork end of the system and/or at the master cylinder to clutch pedal side.
I bought my 05 xB new; it now has 41k miles. The only issue I have with the clutch is some judder when it’s damp outside, or when the car is cold in the morning, but it’s been this way since about 15k miles. No bearing noise or other problems, and I do mostly city commuting in hilly Pittsburgh.
The friends at scionlife.com have plenty of anecdotal stories about clutches; some people have only gotten 30k miles from theirs, but we’re talking about the clutch surface, not the bearing.
My guess would be that the throwout bearing isn’t releasing as far as it should. It probably comes out far enough to fully engage the clutch, but not far enough that the bearing isn’t up against the pressure plate. I would check all adjustments, and if there are none, the master or slave cylinder could be suspect.
Looking at service information, your pedal assembly has two adjustments, one for pedal hieght, and one for pedal free play. The free play one might not be out enough.
MBella , John Horner, (and others) – Excellent feedback, about the adjustment/throw-out bearing not being 100% fully released when the pedal is up. That’s my suspicion too. Now to prove it to the dealer so that they will replace it for free. Thanks!
15000 miles and it needs a throwout bearing…..
hummmm sounds kind American car to me.
If someone had written in with the same problem on a BIG 3 car…there sure would have been a lot more negative posts!
Hell my Fiats never had a throwout bearing go out b-4 the car rusted away at around 50000 miles.
Seems to me that the ‘bulletproof’ has worn off the:” best cars in the world that we should all drive if we had any brains at all”
oldyak, 15,000 is to soon for any car. The point of these segments is to help out the person with the problem. There hasn’t been one that I’ve read since this segment has been started where somebody just said it’s a (whatever) and that’s the problem. If it was a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, the answers would be the same. Also, I don’t know if you have been paying attention to the faults in Toyotas that have been pointed out here recently.
The previous Tacoma I had was a stick. I am also a smooth driver who never abuses a clutch. The one in that truck was like a switch; on or off. The dealer said “they’re all like that.”
So I got an automatic for the next one. Automatics seem to give much longer service than manuals these days.
My thought is that it’s got to be a pedal adjustment/free play issue. I can’t see a slave cylinder that causes this issue, but is driveable for 15k miles. If the slave were bleeding down, I’d think you’d come out to the car and find the pedal on the floor, and that’s aparrently not the case.
Maybe the mommy burned out the clutch trying to keep up with all those Aveos.
Sorry, Niedermeyer, couldn’t resist…:)
oldyak :
April 15th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
15000 miles and it needs a throwout bearing…..
hummmm sounds kind American car to me.
I dunno, Oldyak, I’ve abused the clutch in my ’05 Focus ST with innumerable 4500-rpm dumps, and it’s perfectly fine.
Didn’t I hear somewhere that the Xb is actually a Daihatsu sold by Toyota?
Beauty may only be skin deep, but it seems that butt-ugly goes clear through to the throw-out bearing.
@Tommy231: I, too, thought the xB was ugly until I sat in one. Then I bought one. It still has a bad nose, but it’s nothing a paper bag doesn’t solve. :)
@FreedMike: Hope you’re kidding; the xB is a Toyota Echo underneath, with a lunchbox body on top.
The drivetrain has been around a really long time, having served in Echos and Corollas before that, which is one reason xBs are so reliable (typically). As someone pointed out, the bearing problem sounds so “American”. There is certainly something out of adjustment, or maybe a blockage under the dashboard that depresses the clutch pedal a little bit.
My 85 LeBaron GTS clutch got replaced at 161k miles only because I was rebuilding the engine.
A similar ‘chirp’ showed up on my ’90 Miata at around 90K miles … figured it was time to replace the original throwout bearing and clutch. Out of curiosity, I put it on ramps to verify exactly where the sound was coming from (of course, I blocked the wheels and rolled under the car from the front, not the side – I’m not longer stupid in my old age). When I grabbed the clutch actuating lever, the noise stopped. Investigating further, I noticed that the point where the slave cylinder rod pivots on the actuator arm was very shiny (which I expected) and very “dry”. Could it be metal-on-metal vibration that was causing the chirp? A dab of synthetic grease on the pivot point, and the chirping disappeared (and has not returned in 15K additional miles).
Just sayin’ … but there may not have been anything wrong with your throwout bearing – you could have just paid for a very expensive dab of grease.
This is why GM invented automatic transmissions.
Bob
“Didn’t I hear somewhere that the Xb is actually a Daihatsu sold by Toyota?”
Doesn’t matter, they are one in the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daihatsu_Materia
“Say, while I don’t think this should lead to throwout bearing failure @ 15k, do you keep the clutch down constantly at stoplights? That is, instead of putting it in neutral and taking your foot off the clutch at a redlight, are you one of those drivers who keep it in first constantly while holding down the clutch the whole time?”
I do this, is there something wrong with it?
“I do this, is there something wrong with it?”
I’m with you davey49, I hardly ever shift into neutral & let out the clutch at stoplights. In the process I’ve put 110K on a ’91 Civic with 300K, 35K on a 200K ’81 Celica, etc. and have yet to hear/feel any problems with a throwout bearing. I understand the propensity for more wear, but aren’t they designed for this?
38,000 miles on my 06 xB 5 speed and no problems with the clutch.
When stopping I also press the clutch pedal all the way in and then the brake. Probably not the best way to do it but I’m stuck that way.