Jim from Regina, Saskatchewan, asks:
Automatic transmissions obviously require some upkeep to keep them in good condition. What about manual transmissions? What sort of maintenance needs to be performed on them, if any, to maximize their life? Is the reliability of them higher enough that more drivers should be considering them? I’ve owned five cars with manual transmissions (transaxles really), and only one of them ever gave me trouble. It was a 1990 Hyundai Excel (I can see the readers’ eyes rolling already). With almost 190,000 km on the clock, it became impossible to downshift into second without double clutching. I have learned enough about manual trannies since then to think that it was probably a failed synchro, and my mechanic’s advice at the time (“Live with it.”) was probably good, considering the likely cost of correcting it and the value of the car.
I drive manuals because I like the control, and the lower purchase cost is a bonus, but I imagine in my head that I’m going to get a longer service life, too. I wonder how accurate my assessment is.
Sajeev answers:
There are some durable automatic transmissions/axles that only need regular fluid changes to last 200k miles or more, easily outlasting the owner’s interest in the vehicle. But considering the lower price point, less complicated internals and (YMMV) fuel economy benefit, I am inclined to agree with you.
But this cannot be a cut and dry answer. The caveats involve an owner that knows how to make a clutch last (using just enough throttle to up/downshift smoothly while not wasting gas) and shifts smoothly to keep the synchros happy.
Bonus! A Piston Slap Nugget of Wisdom:
Who says TTAC doesn’t give GM credit when it’s due? I’ve personally seen GM’s “Synchromesh” fluid work wonders on GM, Ford, BMW and Nissan gearboxes, turning hard-to-shift cogs into child’s play. I wouldn’t be surprised if Synchromesh would’ve fixed that Hyundai’s worn out synchros, too. And at $15-ish a quart, you won’t break the bank saving an old tranny.
Another commenter from Regina, Sask.? Well that makes two of us.
The best tranny is…
It’s so hard not to stuff that setup right in the basket. But I will resist.
Synchromesh fluid is great stuff. I have a 55 VW Beetle with an original untouched split case trans (complete with straight cut first gear with no synchro). I added it to the tranny and it cured the occasion grind during 1-2 shifts. I was impressed.
Personal preference. You save money on regular maintenance with a manual, but it will eventually require a clutch and/or throw-out bearing.
Oddly, some new cars get better MPG in the automatic version–the Honda Fit is one. With the Fit I think the manual needs a sixth gear, but it’s also because the automatic runs at lower engine RPMs at freeway speeds.
Actually, I think it’s a conspiracy to push the manual transmission out of the American market completely . . . .
If it’s rear wheel drive – no problems. Front wheel drive – check the size of the gearbox casing. If it’s close to the size of the engine block (like VW Golf/Rabbit) – no problems. Othervise – press the shift stick a little harder into each gear. If you can feel and hear a grinding noise, beware. Not science, but can work as a clue.
I remember hearing that the Excel manual transmissions were such junk that reputable shops wouldn’t work on them. But this was years ago and I can’t remember the source.
“Actually, I think it’s a conspiracy to push the manual transmission out of the American market completely . . . .” Perhaps not quite so simple. Federalization rules afaik state that each engine/transmission combination has to go through the same expensive and time-consuming government rigamarole to be epa-certified or something, making it in the mfr’s interest to keep the number of such combinations as low as possible. So, the minority setups often don’t get sold in the US. And there are enough one-legged drivers in the US, or enough people who drive every day in stop-and-go traffic, or something, that a lot of the setups dropped are the manual-transmission ones.
The maintenance for manual transmission is pretty much the same as for automatics. Change the oil (every 2 years or 30k miles is a good rule-of-thumb).
The only other maintenance is to have the linkage checked/adjusted/repaired if the shift lever gets ‘sloppy’.
Otherwise, just treat it gently. Always use the clutch, shift deliberately but not too quickly, and avoid downshifts when you don’t need them (brake pads are much cheaper than transmission syncros).
One huge advantage manual transmission have over automatics is that everything is…well…manual. It is very rare for the mechanical bits to completely fail, so you can keep driving even if there is wear or damage.
In contrast, automatic transmissions are replete with valves, solenoids, o-rings, governors, etc. that can leave you stranded.
It is these ‘soft’ parts that tend to fail on automatics, and why automatics typically need more frequent rebuilds than manual transmissions.
Nobody’s yet answered the actual question, which is the best transmission? I’m going to go with the manual in the B15 Sentra. The Nissan transmissions shift beautifully, and that one was redesigned to handle a lot more torque than the earlier ones. I also have to give mention to the 6T70 FWD auto as used in a bunch of new GM cars, but I’m slightly biased in that regard.
The manual in my B15 sentra (GXE) was fine, except that within a few years the clutch started feeling like I was scraping the pedal against sandpaper; the dealer couldn’t figure it out. The manual in my B15 sentra (SE-R Spec V) was fun and reliable, but clunky as hell. The automatic in my wife’s B15 sentra (GXE) went out just before the powertrain warranty was up. So scrubnick, gotta disagree with you there. :)
@ 86er:
Yep, apparently lots of us in Regina :-)
Another vote for Synchromesh! Go figure…..
The 6MT transmissions in the 2004-2007 Acura TL’s are famous for a stiff 2nd to 3rd shift. I have no idea why, and there’s no shortage of people bitching about it online and at the dealerships – me too! There’s something about that 3rd gear…
After replacing the factory manual transmission fluid with GM Synchromesh in my 2005 TL, shifting improved immensely. Engagement into all the gears – especially 3rd is much better.
Now to get a better pair of brake pads for the OEM Brembo’s.
With regular maintenance, most autos out there are pretty good these days. That said, a manual is typically more durable, and if you’re hard on it you’re more likely to roast the clutch before messing up the trans itself. OTOH, if you’re bad to an auto trans, you could easily wind up with a $3,000 overhaul on your hands. Depending on what you drive and your habits, either one’s probably pretty sound these days for a couple hundred k.
Heh, my name in lights!
And now I know there are at least three of us in Regina that read TTAC regularly.
findude: interestingly enough, our second car (the one my wife drives most of the time) is an ’09 Fit Sport with a manual. And I agree, it does need a sixth gear. On the other hand, my ’07 Accord EX-L has really nice gearing and the RPMs at highway speed are quite low.
Unfortunately, I have to put a couple of hundred thousand kilometres on a transmission or transaxle to really give you a final opinion on how good it is (I think how they wear is as important as how good they are when new), but of the cars I’ve owned or regularly driven that have had manuals, I rank them thus:
– ’07 Accord 2.4L I4 – silky-smooth shifts, minimal effort to engage the clutch. Easy to drive hard (and still smoothly).
– ’99 Mazda Protege LX (1.8L) – silky-smooth when new (I seem to recall reading the gears were actually Teflon-coated). After 140,000 km it certainly wasn’t as smooth but it was still easy to drive.
– ’09 Fit 1.5L – not silky smooth but still easy to shift. The clutch engagement point at both ends of the pedal travel seems to be quicker than on most cars, so it’s easy to overrev. It took me a good couple of weeks of driving the car to drive it well, but once I got there it became a pleasure to drive (small engine notwithstanding!).
– ’87 VW Jetta 1.6L – my first car. The shifter was a little notchy but the clutch was nice. I learned to drive stick on this car. I don’t have as many nice things to say about the fuel pump or the CV joints though…
– ’90 Hyundai Excel CXL – we drove this car into the ground, essentially, and it served us well, and while it was easy enough to drive and shift, the early synchro failure puts it at the bottom. I wish I’d known about synchromesh fluid when the tranny got annoying though!
I haven’t driven enough exotic cars to give really interesting information, but I can say this:
– the 6-speed manual in the ’10 Hyundai Genesis (either the 6 cyl or the 2.0T 4) certainly is harder to drive than my Accord, but I didn’t notice it when I was driving it. I noticed how much easier my Accord was to drive when I left the dealership. But it’s smooth. Perhaps it’s built to have the snot driven out of it, and that’s why it takes more effort to clutch.
– the ’08 Saturn Astra shifter is identical to the one in the ’07 Vauxhall Zafira we rented in Scotland. No great surprise I suppose. Notchy, but easy enough to drive. Good clutch.
– an ’08 Mazda3 made me feel right at home, the clutch and shifter are so similar to my ’99 Protege.
– I like the shifter in the ’09 Versa. It’s a 6-speed. But the rest of the car feels slightly cheap compared to the Fit, which is why we bought it. (The Fit does cost noticeably more, though.)
Well, this is a favorite subject of mine. As many of you know, I don’t think cars should have manual transmissions. Drivers should pay attention to driving instead of having to massage the mechanicals of the car.
I also think that the overall cost of ownershgip will probably be less for an automatic. When it comes to maintenance, follow the owner’s manual for fluid changes. GM typically doesn’t require any fluid changes, while Ford often requires them every 30,000 miles.
Also, a lot fo automatic transmission problems are caused by adding or using the wrong fluid. There are several different types these days. Know what the transmission in your car needs.
Repairing a manual tranmission is fairly problematic these days. Typically Ford does not sell service parts for the manual trans in RWD cars, selling only complete units. For the price of a manual trans in an F150 you could buy a nice used BMW.
And that’s not counting repairs to the clutch.
A lot of cars have a hydraulicly operated clutch. Most use brake fluid, but some don’t. Usethe wrong fluid and you can have some more repairs. It all goes back to reading the owner’s manual and making sure that whoever services the car also reads the manual.
Bob
ps And, yes, I know how to drive a stick shift.
B
Back to the original question, my vote for the “best” goes to ……..
A-727 Torqueflite
There isn’t any killing of these. They were good enough that Ford even sourced the original Torqueflite design in the 50’s (and paid Chrysler around $7.5m for the privilege) to build their “Cruise-O-Matic” in 1958. They were used extensively behind the ’63 Max Wedge and later Hemi cars because they were the only transmission that could put the torque to the rear w/o unloading the skinny tires of the time. And, they were good on the street, too!!!!
225K on my E34’s Getrag 260/6. Previous car (E28) had 250K on its 260/6. My dad’s E34 also has a 260/6 with 270K miles.
Clunky and loud by modern standards, but insanely reliable…one of the few boxes that could match the M30 engine for longevity.
Two votes for my favorite transmission:
Best I’ve ever owned – The 5-speed in my 1996 Mazda MX-6. Just a joy to use.
Best ever built – I’d put a vote in for the classic GM Turbohydromatic 350. Most automotive technology schools use these for teaching because they are so resistant to student abuse. They are also remarkably simple to rebuild.
I’ve been driving BMW 3 and 5 series sedans with manual transmissions for over 25 years. BMW is the only company that sells small and mid-size RWD sedans with manual transmissions in the US (MB does for the non-US market).
I have yet to replace a clutch or repair a transmission on any BMW even with 100,000+ miles. A manual transmission and clutch can last 150,000+ miles if you drive it right.
Some of the newer automatics and clutchless SMGs (BMW, MB and Audi) are getting pretty good. No way can I shift in 100ms or rev match downshifts as well. Definitely the way to go if I lived in San Francisco and had to deal with steep streets everyday.
Twotone
@ MikeInCanada
What site(s) do you recommend for ’04-’06 6MT TL’s? I’ve just started looking for one and would appreciate your guidance.
I now have 91k miles on my ’04 6MT TL and haven’t spent a single dollar on anything other than oil changes, tires, and replaced the brake pads at 63k (all at my dealer). I’ve never noticed a rough shift from 2nd to 3rd, but I’ll look for it now (or should I?).
My ’94 Ford Probe GT went to 230,000 miles on the original clutch. Engine died before the manual tranny did. Always got 25 mpg out of that 2.4L 163hp mill.
My wife’s ’98 Pontiac Sunfire (that we handed down to my brother three years ago) now has 205,000 miles…..and its an automatic. Tranny never serviced…and still gets 31+ mpg from that fourbanger. I betcha it would get 35+ on better (lower resistance) tires. Those OEM rims and tires are terrible….like dragging around sandbags.
it really does come down to preference, rather than cost. You may be less likely to rebuild a manual tranny, but you will certainly have to redo a clutch at some point, and that’s not cheap. Kind of negates any gas savings made over time.
My 98 Blazer ZR2 is a 5-speed, and I had the clutch, slave cylinder, and throw-out bearing redone last year at about 130k miles. It is a sweet shifting tranny, believe it or not…nearly impossible to stall it, probably due to the torque of the Vortec V6. But the clutch is really heavy…maybe since it is a truck it is heavier out of a necessity for the ability to tow. My previous manual tranny was a Subaru GL-10 wagon, we had to redo the clutch on that one at 120k. I recall it as being notchy, but easy to learn on.
When it comes to a sweet manual tranny, however, I have always felt Honda did it right. When it comes to automatics, GM’s old 4 speeds are tough to beat.
Relton “Well, this is a favorite subject of mine. As many of you know, I don’t think cars should have manual transmissions. Drivers should pay attention to driving instead of having to massage the mechanicals of the car.”
I have always felt the opposite. I think having a manual requires more attention. I think the automatic has allowed a lot of terrible to mediocre drivers the possibility of getting a license.
I find my attention to driving is much better with a manual than an automatic. I think the act of shifting makes me spend more of my neural cycles on driving and fewer on wondering if Doc Halladay is going to have his A stuff against the White Sox this weekend.
Just a few notes:
Shifting a manual transmission too quickly is hard on the face teeth on the slider and the gear. You’re grinding the metal away as the parts engage. Usually you hear the zzzip or occasionally a bad grind.
Shifting too slowly is a bit hard on the blocker rings, or clutches that match the speed of the gear and the slider. They need to be pressed onto the cones so they work.
Doing 0-60 and 1/4 mile runs is fun, but you should shift quickly and deliberately with the clutch all the way to the floor…the synchros need a brief period to work.
Finally, I’ve had great luck with Royal Purple Synchromax in my TR3650.
I’ve never had a manual that did not give me problems – I learned to drive a stick on an old International Harvester farm truck, and the syncros on a modern car are made of spaghetti noodle.
I”ve owned several manuals, and I’ve had much better durability results with automatics.
relton, so can you chew gum and walk at the same time without tripping? It seems your brain is hardwired to do only one thing at a time.
If you do enough driving, shifting is second nature. I no longer think about shifting, it just happens. You instinctively know what gear you are in and what gear you need to be in.
My ’93 Saturn had a terrific manual. Very snic-snic. Precise. quick. etc. My ’99 Accord is almost as good, but not quite. Drove the Saturn to 147k, have 158k on the Accord. Never had to do a clutch since my ’62 Falcon. (I wrecked the tranny on the Falcon with too much clutchless shifting. On the other hand, an equal or greater amount of clutchless shifting did not noticeably hurt the tranny on my ’77 Corolla.)
A neighbor had to have a manual rebuilt on a 2002 3 series before 60k.
As for relton, who thinks people shouldn’t be driving around with manuals, my guess is that he (or she–I don’t know) probably has the neural wiring a bit different from most people. Gear shifting is one of those things that for most of us, once you learn it, you do it without taking away from attention. Like riding a bicycle, or ballroom dancing (if you’re really good), or typing.
The best tranny is… RuPaul? lol, sorry I couldn’t resist. Hope that’s not flaming.
I must confess that I’m one of those guys who can’t drive stick. Most of you will be proud that my Grandfather made all four of his daughters learn to drive the manual transmission in his 66 Ford Bronco and change a tire on the beast before he would let them take a drivers test. Now at age 31, I’ve got my 25 year old girlfriend teaching my to drive stick on her 2005 Pontiac Vibe.
I’ve seen manuals take more abuse and know that the clutch will usually grenade before the transmission. I want to get a small 4cyl 4×4 SUV/CUV to drive to work on days that I can’t take my scooter. I want the higher fuel economy + 4wheel drive for snowy days.
The best auto I ever had was the one behind my 82 Chevy Celebrity, 4cyl Iron Duke engine, 3 speed auto, went about 200,000 with no fluid or changes, abused and unloved by my father who ironically is very meticulous about all other vehicle maintenance.
Worst auto? The one in my 97 Ford Escort that needed a total rebuild at 64,000 miles, although I’ll be honest and say I neglected it completely.
I think in the future all my small vehicles will have manuals and my larger vehicles like the 2004 F150 I currently drive, will be autos.
“Who says TTAC doesn’t give GM credit when it’s due? I’ve personally seen GM’s “Synchromesh” fluid work wonders on GM, Ford, BMW and Nissan gearboxes, turning hard-to-shift cogs into child’s play. I wouldn’t be surprised if Synchromesh would’ve fixed that Hyundai’s worn out synchros, too. And at $15-ish a quart, you won’t break the bank saving an old tranny.”
I had to register just for this… The Synchromesh tranny oil is actually “Synchromesh FM”. FM stands for friction modified and it’s semi synthetic. That’s the stuff thats $15/qt. GM spec’d it originally for manual light truck transmissions.
Regular Synchromesh is just plain old ‘whale oil’
And yes, the ‘FM’ TRANSFORMS manny tranies.
I like how in this thread, dislike of manual transmissions is classified as a neurological disorder!
Regarding maintenance costs, I always thought that manuals were cheaper than automatics. Anyone have an example? Don’t forget the $1,000 premium for the auto upfront.
My dad’s 96 Camry is running the same automatic transmission as always, and he’s pushing 250K. So I suppose Toyota makes pretty damned reliable transmissions.
On the manual front, a friend of mine drives an ’88 Camry with a stock manual, and it still shifts seemlessly.
Boring, I know, but still rock solid gearboxes.
Pardon my ignorance, what kind of Elixir is this GM’s manual trans Holy holy oel?
I have used Lucas oel treatment, trans tx all seem to work purty good.
What I have noticed is how rare the story of (expensive) manual transmission failure is. I have heard secondhand stories about manuals failing on some Mini Coopers and on some old high mileage Miatas, but no firsthand stories.
I have lost count of the firsthand accounts I have heard about automatic failures. If you know anybody with a Windstar, Taurus, virtually any Chrysler product since the Torqueflite (I vote with racebeer, by the way), any middle aged Chevy/GMC truck and any GM car with TurboHydramatic 200, then you have heard about $3-4k transmission failures. Sometimes multiple ones. And it is not just domestics – 2nd Gen Honda minivans and recent Acura TLs too.
A good automatic will last a long, long time. Example, a 4 cyl Honda Accord from the late 80s-90s. But with a stick, the odds are more in your favor.
Manual transmission failures are rare if not abused. Clutch replacements, however, are going to be required. Long term cost of ownership wise, a manual transmission almost always wins out over an automatic as long as you keep the vehicle a very long time. Maintenance wise, changing the manual tranny fluid every 30k miles or so is a cheap way to look after the thing. Make sure to use the correct fluid for your vehicles as there are many, many variations.
The only real downside to a manual can be poor resale value for most vehicles. Sadly, the majority of the population doesn’t know how to shift for themselves in the US.
John Horner:
I keep my cars a long time generally, so I don’t mind the low resale value, but it works to our advantage, too: used manuals can be a terrific bargain.
New manuals can be, too. I bought my Accord late in the model year and the car was in stock. I had a fair bit of negotiating power as a result. It happened to be equipped precisely as I would have ordered the car too (including colour), which was a bit lucky to say the least!
E36 and E46 BMW manuals have always treated me right. I always downshift the NSFW out of them, out of them too. My modern Fords autos get sent along their way @ 75K, so I don’t have much visbility beyond that.
Why are CVTs such mess? I know people who had 90’s era Honda Civic HX(?) and the recent Fords/Volvo effort. Each had poor durability. Would a magic elixor ala Synchromesh have helped?
In most cases a manual transmission car’s lower purchase cost will be offset by reduced resale value.
190,000 on e46 manual tranny 330i
Orig Clutch.
Trans oil changed every 60k, along with diff oil every 60k.
No abuse, street driven, no racing.
Note that BMW claims Lifetime oil for the trans. Change it anyway, ignore the accountants and marketers.
Still good. (fingers crossed)
I’m told auto box BMW is a replacement @ 100-120k.
I’ll second that the 727 Torqueflight is a good one, but GM’s bulletproof THM-400 ranks right up there with it. The one residing in my old Caddy is still dealing with 500 ft/lbs of torque in heavy car. The tranny (and the car) is original, never been rebuilt, and didn’t appear to be very well cared for for most of its life. I hope I haven’t jinxed anything with this post, but all it needs at the moment is a rear seal replacement.
I have driven manuals always. The few times I’ve driven an automatic I feel bad.
I don’t understand why the mother f@#$%& transmission always want to downshift when I only want to speed a bit things pushing the go pedal to the floor.
That’s what I do with my manual and I’m feeling lazy to downshift and the car can recover with not much problem.
Manuals FTW.
On a related note (maybe a question for a different Piston Slap thread), how many people with automatic transmissions leave them in ‘Park’ without applying the parking brake ?
Yesterday I watched some guy get out of a pickup parked on a slope and as he let his foot off the brakes the whole vehicle lurched forward a good 6 inches … obviously in ‘Park’ without the parking brake on. It seems all that slack and twist in the transmission adds up and it wouldn’t take much to break something. IIRC Subaru a few years back had problems with the transmission locking pins snapping.
Stingray :
I recommend a spin in a car with one of the new A/T’s out there, my experience is with Mazda3 hatch, 5 speed Manumatic, it reads your current driving style and behave accordingly, if you are going uphill and it decide to downshift to 4th, it will stay there even if you take your foot off the accelerator, it will go bk to 5th only when it “feels” you are done with the uphill, you always see what gear you are on and you can choose any gear to stay on, it will never up shift in M mode even if you go up to the engine’s redline.
No A/T will give you the satisfaction of a manual but if you live in a city (NYC), there is no way you can enjoy manual 50% of the time, traffic and stop and go, you can go nuts with a manual.
I drove a manual for 15 years.
Its the old same…you can either drive the car or be driven. Stop and go with a manual is simple…stay in second and dont stay on the guy aheads tail. RELAX. Nobodies going nowhere quick anyway.
And, you dont really need a starter motor…which can be handy and save a tow.
The car-deplume in my nomdeplume is an ’06, bought in the second week of November of 05. As I drive a minimum of 80 miles, Mon-Fri this lovable 5-speed gal has a little over 104,000 miles.
Relton I completely disagree with you.
My daughter is being taught how to drive the manual first, as it will force her to think about such things as engine speed vs road speed, etc.
This is basically my second Mazda 5 speed manual, as we had a 94 Probe with basically the same drivetrain as I have now. I drove that one to 225,000 miles with NO TRANNY MAINTENANCE whatsoever, until the vaccuum assisted idler valve went out (Yes, the manual Ford was assisted & the slush box was not). This kept it from going to 0 rpm’s when your foot was not on the gas. As there were no manual Probes in any junk yard & Ford wanted 500 bucks for that little doohickey it was time to let her go.
The Mazda got new 95 weight gear oil at 90 thou :)
I’ve nearly always had manual transmissions in an assortment of German, British, Japanese, and American cars. The only one that ever gave me consistent trouble was in an ’87 Acura Integra I bought new. It ate clutches–one before the warranty expired, and the second shortly before 100K miles. Clutch disc, pressure plate, throwout bearing–really not much to replace when it does go. This is not an expensive or difficult repair. I also replaced the shift forks and syncros in a four-cylinder Mustang, at about 70K miles. That was a bit more complicated, and I did the clutch while I was in there.
The difference between an automatic and a manual transmission is the difference between driving and merely steering.
As to durability,
Automatic – Ford C-6, for an overdrive I’d go with the GM 700-R4.
Manual, Gotta give it to the Ford Toploader for sheer ability to take abuse.
As for modern transmissions:
Mannual – The 5 speed in the NA Miata – Most precise I’ve driven. Honorable Mention to the Borg-Warner T5 in the 87-88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes and my old 90 318I wagon’s 5 speed.
I also have a Saturn SW1 that has treated me very well, however the poster whom described the actuation of that particular 5 SPEED as “snick snick” is a little off IMHO. It has more play in gear than my Miata does in Neutral. I haven’t broken it though and the original clutch was still in at 225,000 miles when I had to pull the motor.
As for modern automatics, I will refrain as I have only owned a couple. The Ford AOD and all its derivitives are off the list for sure though. I’d rather get a C4 or c6 with a gear vendors unit.
Hey RF,
Isn’t this flaiming?
relton, so can you chew gum and walk at the same time without tripping? It seems your brain is hardwired to do only one thing at a time.
As for relton, who thinks people shouldn’t be driving around with manuals, my guess is that he (or she–I don’t know) probably has the neural wiring a bit different from most people.
Bob
I’ve owned eight Hondas (two were Acuras) and one Mazda- all with manual transmissions. I still own one a ’93 Accord that I bought new with 5-speed manual, 296,000 miles on the odo and the transmission still shifts like butter. I had to replace the clutch at around 190k, but the tranny itself is fine.
The only maintenance I’ve done is to replace the transmission oil every 45-50k miles. In the Hondas, I used the same oil in the engine and transmission. My Mazda3 requires 80-90W Gear Oil for the 5-speed manual.
I’ve never had a transmission ‘failure’ of any sort. A common issue with all of them is that REVERSE becomes difficult to engage as it gets older/higher miles. I know this has something to do with Reverse not being synchronized, but I’ve just grown accustomed to it. I park the car in Reverse, set the parking brake- PROBLEM SOLVED!
In direct contrast to my experiences, my best friend in high school had an ’84 Chrysler Laser (the even-ugliier twin to the Dodge Daytona). It was only five years old and had low miles (60k or so, if I recall), but it was a NIGHTMARE! At random, it would refuse to go into any forward gear at all…and then when it would, you were lucky if it was a gear you could start out in. I’m sure his failed attempts to start out in 3rd and 4th gear didn’t help matters either! =)
The transmission issues were less of a problem over time…because BIGGER problems started showing up. I still can hear the robotic voice from the digital dash, “Engine Overheating! Engine Damage May Occur….” No sh!t!
Best I’ve ever owned – The 5-speed in my 1996 Mazda MX-6. Just a joy to use.
…
I agree. The manual trans in the MX6/Probe GT is excellent. For automatics, Torqueflite 727, the three speed auto in any K based vehicle, and GM THM350. All these are capable of well over 200K.
The 5 speed that Alfa used from the 60’s to the 90’s in the 101, 105, 115 rwd chassis was a joy to drive. Always used synthetic, amsoil or redline. But then so were the cars. Marchionne, bring it on.
The old Getrag 4 hp22 in my 528es is pretty good for an automagic. Over a million agregate miles on 4 of them. No failures, maintenance was spotty too.
My 30 mile commute into Boston takes at least an hour in stall and crawl traffic. I developed a bad left knee so manuals are a PITK. I used to feel like I was rowing to work. I drove sticks for 20 yrs, got a 66 Valiant with a torqueflite and havent had a stick in 20 yrs.
So I prefer an automatic for my commuter appliance and a stick in my toy car.
@ scribnick:
I’ve heard those Sentra manuals are good, but obviously the DNA didn’t carry to the 5MT in the 02-06 Altima. I had an 05 myself, and that thing was terrible. First the clutch started slipping at 20,000km (no I didn’t abuse it), and then it started grinding on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. Good thing I got rid of that car after 2 years, and without losing my shirt (Altimas hold their value well, oddly enough). It also seems that a lot of Japanese manuals like to have the clutch engagement point quite almost at the tope, which I find annoying.
As for my vote, I’d say any BMW manual in the last ten years. Every one I’ve had the pleasure of rowing was snick-snick tight, had short throws, and a just-right clutch. Some of the Acuras are okay too, like the 1st gen TSX, etc.
Crazy Canuck
Have you driven a 6MT Altima? I haven’t driven a 5MT, but the 6spd is real good. I had a clutch issue (changing the fluid sorted it) but the trans/shifting itself has been real nice, real smooth.
What about the 4R70W transmission in the Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car. They are very durable, and the latest ones shift pretty well.
Obviously a lot is preference. My favorite the 5 speed manual in my Miata, especially after I switched to red-line MTL. Slick bolt action joy.
Generally: From worse to best in terms of Joy:
CVT: I hate these abominations.
Slushbox: Meh.
DSG: Better than a slush box, buy I enjoy shifting more than button pushing.
Manual: That lovely bolt action and full control. Heaven.
Generally: Reliability/maintenance from worse to best.
CVT: Again what is with these abominations. Google CVT transmission issues…
DSG: (tie)
Slushbox: (tie)Higher maintenance and more likely to have catastrophic failure, more expesive repairs.
Manual: Again, maintenance is minimal failures rare, catastrophic, strand you failures, very rare. Not bad, but wait there is one more:
Prius HSD power coupler. While not my idea of a fun ride, the power coupler in the Prius HSD has to be the most reliable “transmission replacements” on the market. It doesn’t change gears. It has an orbital gears, but no bands/clutches/solenoids parts for coupling power and selecting the active gear. It simply blends the power from the Emotor and ICE.
A visual to help:
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
So for me it’s a good old manual. If I get lazy, I might check out a new Prius.
What the hell is going on here ? ? ?
Has TTAC entered some kind of TWILIGHT ZONE or an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE ?
Can ONE MILLION Prius owners be wrong ?
The Toyota HSD system on those vehicles happen to be immensely reliable. For starters in that type of transmission the use of clutches and hydraulic actuators have been avoided entirely.
Why would the auto industry continue to use components that, as discussed ad nauseum by commenters above, have aging problems due to mechanical wear ? Purely mechanical transmissions continue to be a holdout against far more reliable solutions. What is this “Sure we know about transistors but will continue to use vacuum tubes if it’s all the same to you” BS ?
It is not like there are no other alternatives to the HSD on the table. The Series Hybrid has still to make a commercial entrance. This particular approach avoids even the mechanical complexity of the Toyota PSD planetary gear. How much more reliable do things need to get ?
And let’s face it, the Prius is NOT intended as an electric car. It is about being an electric transmission. Anyone who disagrees can tell me why the Prius battery holds only 50% more energy than the Lead-acid battery in their own car ? You heard right – only 50% more, and that’s a fact.
People will then say “but what if that expensive NiMH battery gives out That will cost you $2300 plus $600 in labor”. The fact is that despite the scare mongering by detroit trolls only a minute number of these batteries have needed replacement so far.
Furthermore as long as there are no shorted cells the vehicle will continue to operate even though the energy capacity has declined 80%, by my determination. Yes, Power Assist may start fading earlier but many of the advantages of this transmission will continue to apply. That is – the use of a downsized 1.5L engine and the ability to operate said engine at lower revs and high torque at all times to reduce frictional loss together with regen braking in order to reduce mechanical brake wear.
If we look to the future, it is entirely possible to go battery-less with this system or ‘virtual battery’ as I call it. Obviously the main hi-voltage DC bus will still need to be “defibrillated” occasionally from an external source so that the generator can switch its role to motoring in order to start a stationary engine. Though merely vaporware right now, such a system could have the potential to reduce the hybrid premium to zero.
@T2:
Who are you ranting against? I think I was the only one to mention the Prius HSD and I said I consider the most reliable transmission (more like tranny replacement) on the market.
@cleek
The problem with CVTs IMHO is that the mechanical failure mode is very destructive.
You have metal on metal drive, separated by a microscopic oil film. If something occurs that hurts the oil film (pump problem, control issue, oil aging, etc) it pretty much smokes itself very quickly.
The clutch systems in a “normal” automatic are much more forgiving.
Clumsy me, I scanned your post, Bytor, and missed that last bit on the HSD. I apologise.
Thinking back to the manual tranny on our (then brand new) 1989 Honda CRX Si still brings a smile to my face. Light, precise…why the heck can’t they all be that much fun? As for my current whip, the clutch action in my ’06 Fusion reminds me more of driving the camp’s John Deere…no, wait a minute…the clutch on the tractor has lighter touch than that behemoth in the Fusion! Stop and go really is NO fun with that car. While I’ve never owned a Miata, I have test driven a few and do like the stick action, along with the action of the ’07 Civic Si I tested two days ago.