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TTAC commentator carguy can’t leave well enough alone as he prepares to boldly go where no factory warranty will go with him:
I have a question that I would like some feedback on from the TTAC best and brightest. I am about to take delivery of a BMW 335i and am contemplating some mods for the engine (after all, 300hp seems like a waste when you have a 3-liter six and two turbos). My question is two fold:
1. Should I run the engine in and then get the mod or should I run the engine in with the mod in place?
2. I was considering a Dinan stage 1 or 2. Any feedback from TTAC readers on this mod or any other would be much appreciated.
48 Comments on “Ask the Best and Brightest: BMW Engine Mods ASAP?...”
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By now, you may have gone to various BMW online communities and asked them the same thing. They have probably told you to take the money and spend it on track days until you can drive so well that you actually *need* more HP to go faster. Sounds like good advice to me.
The engine was designed for a certain amount of strain (Hp). The parameters of the cooling system, metallurgy, and gaskets will only be reliable within those parameters.
I would suggest to break-in the engine as from the factory. This will allow the normal wear between the piston rings and cylinder wall. The rings were designed to absorb a certain amount of heat and expand within those parameters.
Adding the expense of 100 or more horse power does not relate to 1/3 more top end speed, 1/3 more quickness, just 1/3 more wear and tear on the engine.
I have found if you learn (maybe you already have)how to take advantage of the cars suspension and driveability you can out perform 99% of the other drivers in the world.
Hope you can enjoy your car and have fun while being safe.
maxofperry – it is not so much about top speed or track performance than about more usable torque in the mid range in everyday driving.
bolhuijo – not so – the BMW online communities are awash with modders but they haven’t proven to as informative or objective as I’d like. There seems to be a lot of brand partisans or folks making very doubtful claims so I thought I’d check with the TTAC community.
100HP/L is already on the aggressive end of the spectrum. Unless you want to have the BMW service manager on speed dial I’d let that sleeping German Shepard be.
Don’t place the cart before the horse.
To repeat what others have said join your SCCA chapter and learn to truly drive the ultimate driving machine. After a few track days and spending you modification budget on better suspension, brakes and tires then you could think about adding mo’ powah.
If your old car was a slower car (say anything less than 275 hp), hold off on the mod. Not for technical reasons but because your new car will be much faster/responsive/fun than your old with/without the mods. When you get ‘bored’….say after a year or two, then mod it up and your car will feel new again.
Unless of course you absolutely want the extra hp now. And no vishnu procede? And isn’t there a Dinan BMW-approved/warranty-covered mod? ….maybe carguy is taking about that.
Do the track days, driver school, etc. Learn how to drive the bloody car.
Then modify.
(I work at a motorcycle shop – nothing gets to me more than watching the squids do all this mechanical upgrading, while they still can’t ride the bike worth a damn.)
Edit: Before you start messing with the drivetrain, do all the possible modifications on the suspension. Modifyng a vehicle’s handling accomplishes a lot more than modifying the drivetrain – unless you drag race, of course.
Superb as the N54 undoubtedly is, it is (apparently) no 2JZ-GTE.
Mod a new car? …Oh, for the love of..torque. :)
I know the comments about driving schools are irrelevant to your stated primary purpose for modifying (torque in every day driving), but having a car that is track capable as you will, I’d sure look into BMW CCA schools not just for driver training, but also for the sheer fun of it.
As to the do it now or do it later, I would definitely wait.
I agree with others who’ve said that unless you have extensive experience using high performance cars, you’ll end up happier enjoying your 335i in stock form for at least a year or more before you do anything to it. Modifying such a car will upset the fine balance between its engine, brakes & suspension, which is what makes the BMW such an exquisite pleasure to drive.
When & if you do decide that you MUST modify, the choice of tuner is crucial. It’s oh so easy to get it wrong. I have not experienced using Dinan but from what I’ve read, he’s good.
I must admit that after owning (& modifying) stuff like Mitsu Evos & Merc AMGs, I decided to keep both a box-stock 996 Turbo as well as a 997 Ruf 911. They’re both thoroughly enjoyable but very different. If I absolutely had to own just one car & the choice were between the two of them, I’d very sadly give up the Ruf. Yes, tuner cars can be used as daily drivers but stuff that comes out of BMW or Porsche are hard to beat if you’re looking to drive just one car & (almost) have it all – speed, comfort, reliability & practicality.
I wouldn’t do anything to it. BMW is getting seriously good at sniffing out ECU mods, and they will “un-warranty” your car so fast your head will spin.
brakes and suspension upgrades before engine mods. I get a kick out of the guys who buy a BMW and dont like its slow performance betweeen stop lights. That is not what the car was engineered to do. If that is what you want, you bought the wrong car, get a Mustang instead
Thanks to the folks who responded but I am not really after driving lessons (been there done that both for track and road) or advice on if I should or shouldn’t do it. What I am after is feedback from anyone who has any experience with the Dinan or even SSTT or JB2 mods and possibly any pros and cons of either running in the engine stock vs modified.
As others mentioned above, go to several race schools and learn to drive on THEIR CARS. Skip Barber, Bob Bondurant, etc have excellent programs. I learned on spec Miatas for a year, then modified my car (Flyin Miata) — stage II turbo (250+ WRHP), Willwood brakes, exhaust, clutch, lowered springs, sway bars, wheels and tires, shocks, etc. Just adding HP will not give you a better driving car. Take it one step at a time and start with your driving skills, not the car.
Twotone
Go to the track and learn how to drive first! Just kidding… if the car is brand spankin new, any new engine needs to break in first. You shouldn’t even drive it hard for 500 miles. Gives it time for everything to set in place.
But, it looks like Dinan will cover your warranty: http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/warranty
You should talk to them directly about it. They are a reputable company and should tell you exactly what you need to know. If they are going to warranty the work, they won’t do it if it will cost them a new engine.
My auto experience is pretty lightweight, but I agree with the people who think there’s a lot to be said for a fast factory car.
The other, probably minor consideration, is that money spent on mods is generally a sunk cost. You’re probably not going to be able recover much, if any when it comes time to move on to the next iron horse.
Another reason to wait a little bit – infant mortality. Occasionally, even the best cars are screwed together wrong. Dinan has been doing mods since forever, but I’d hate to test the good faith of either company immediately. And I don’t trust anyone, ie, BMW, not to conflate an unrelated issue with this mod.
chuckR – good point.
I would certainly break the car in unmodded. Less trouble with warranty if ‘anything’ should go wrong, which is not uncommon right off the bat.
Also, probably not the answer you’re looking for, but get an M3 instead. I have a 335, as it initially felt fast and responsive (and the E90 M3 wasn’t out when I got it), but at least unless you’re planning on doing suspension mods and ditching the runflats as well, it isn’t all I expected it to be on the kind of roads where 300+ horses don’t cut it. The M3 is much, much tighter once the pace ups. The 335 is a great freeway, city and moderate (emphasis on moderate) GT car, but it ‘grows big’ quickly on more challenging roads.
As others here have suggested, unless you have money to burn (BMW’s are very, very very expensive to maintain once the warranty’s expired) let your new 335i break in and shake itself out for at least a year before you start modifying its drive train.
Also, as others suggested, give yourself some time to learn how it drives in stock form.
European Car Magazine just did an article on software for the 335i. They tested each tune and then dynoed the car. There you can see actual performance gained. (the intake actually reduced power)
The early 335i models did not have sufficient cooling from the factory to handle hard driving. While they have since fixed this, would that fix be enough for the power you are planning to add? Who knows? You may want to consider upgrading the cooling as well. Of course that project then ups the cost….but if you are going to do something….
I agree that actually learning to drive the car is the biggest performance gain. I see guys at the track all the time who say, “no I’m not racing yet, I want to upgrade my suspension first”. I’m thinking the whole time, you’re going to get your ass whipped no matter what dude….
I say go big dawg.
Ditch the twin turbo setup for one big turbo. Twin turbs are good for low end power, but their small size will always hamper your ability to make power at the top of the powerband.
stuki: this will be a moderate GT car at most (its an automatic). I have had track cars in the past but this isn’t going to be one of them.
Justin: Is the Euro car article available via the web or is it print only?
I defer to Bob Hall (the spiritual father of the Mazda Miata) who said “If you can’t go fast with 90hp, 900hp won’t help you”
Perhaps you should spend the performance mod money on some therapy sessions to figure out what psychological defect is leading you to think that a 4.8 second 0-60 time and a 13.5 second quarter-mile is “not fast enough”?
buzzliteyear : Perhaps you should spend the performance mod money on some therapy sessions to figure out what psychological defect is leading you to think that a 4.8 second 0-60 time and a 13.5 second quarter-mile is “not fast enough”?
I gather you’ve never spent a Friday night at a drag strip. Or if you did, you didn’t care for the experience.
The only benefit to DINAN (via an authorized dealer) is that it keeps the factory warranty. Plenty of others do the same (VRP tuning is one company) for much, much, MUCH less.
aww, buzz, too much torque is never enough. My current car is more than a second faster to 60 than my trade-in was. Objectively, couldn’t tell the difference, but I could feel the extra torque immediately.
buzzliteyear
Passing power is a huge boon for “going fast” safely on twisty two lanes. On two lanes with oncoming traffic, you generally can’t rely on outbreaking or outcornering V8 tractors, hence need the juice to dispatch them on whatever short straights do present itself. And the better your power to weight, the shorter the straight you need.
Sajeev: I hear you about the cost difference but most of the other solutions are piggyback units just seem to fool the ECU into providing more boost over the whole rev range while the DINAN is an ECU reprogram that seems to control a lot more parameters (such as water pump speed). Its also difficult judge how drivable a car will be from a dyno chart so I was hoping to find some 335 owners that have taken the plunge on TTAC.
I spent 2 days last week driving a friends 2008 335i – and all I can say is congratulations! It was my favorite BMW since the E34 M5, and the E90 platform is by far my favorite 3 series since the E30. While not a hardcore sports sedan, they seem to have hit an excellent mix of muscle, luxury, build quality, and functionality.
The best mod I can think of for it would be a really good radar detector and a lawyer on retainer. The car was not only fast but soooo subtle when doing it. Several times cruising on the highway I found I had creeped up to 115 or so without even realizing it. Later I asked my friend about tickets, and he said he had received 17 since he bought it! Thankfully he has the money to buy lawyers and keep them off his record.
carguy,
if torque is what you are after, don’t look any further then 335d. Yes, it might be a bit slower then it petrol cousin, but it has way more usable torque. And if you add a chip by DMS Automotive, it’ll be even better. How does 334hp and 520lb.ft sound to you?
Here you can read one of many reviews: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113581
P.S. I’m in no way affiliated with DMS Automotive, but read many good thins about this company.
carguy : I hear you about the cost difference but most of the other solutions are piggyback units just seem to fool the ECU into providing more boost over the whole rev range while the DINAN is an ECU reprogram that seems to control a lot more parameters (such as water pump speed).
Yeah, I’d never run with a piggyback unit. I believe VRP has a ECU reprogram, like DINAN. You have options, that I know for sure.
Well, I am inclined to agree with the “learn to drive your car better” crowd. That said, the one DINAN mod I will be sure to go for after my car is paid off is the removal of the top speed governor. I never intend to go that fast, but to pay top coin for a car which is deliberately crippled has always offended me, and still does.
I was over at the DINAN site, and even though they don’t have a signature package for the M3 yet, looking at all their mods [including the lucious engine upgrade] make me think I could spend almost as much again on mods as I did to buy the car in the first place [and I love it as it is!].
Oh well, maybe I will hit the lottery!
But I do agree also with those who say “break it in first” before doing any mods whatsoever. The computer professional’s rule of establishing a baseline first before making any changes applies here in spades, because car mods are so much more expensive.
Thirty posts telling the author to learn how to drive, and at least one accusing him of inadequacy. How expected.
The two most interesting ECU piggybacks are the Juice Box 3 and Vishnu’s Procede V3. The latter is more expensive, but both are economical by Dinan standards. I’m not persuaded an ECU reflash is any safer than a piggyback, and I’d put in the research legwork before taking the word of anyone here. Google will find you comparisons of the two, or you can search BMW forums like this one:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
A set of dyno charts I was looking at yesterday imply the two have similar power output, with a bit more torque to the Procede. Others have posted results that swapped the two. I’d put about 5K miles on the car before adding either of them. Not to get used to the existing power levels, but to have the car break-in under less stress.
The one feature the 335i is missing is a limited-slip differential. It has some trick software that’ll minimize wheel-slip, but you’ll never get the power down in tighter turns without a proper mechanical unit. The cost is north of $5K though, it’s not a trivial upgrade. Beyond that, consider stickier tires, and surf the forums to see what to anticipate.
Last fall I bought a 2007 335i 6MT coupe and after a month or so I added the Dinan Stage 2 ECU re-flash. The car was very fast with ample torque to begin with. Driving on rough Wisconsin roads traction was often an issue even before the re-flash. After the reflash, it took me a day or two to really even feel the difference and even now it’s most evident with traction/stability control off. I’ve tracked the car twice, both times with the ECU upgrade and the power is nice, especially on longer tracks like Road America.
I’ve since upgraded the brake pads, brake fluid and swapped up to larger sway bars because the car does understeer quite a bit. Now it’s a little easier to turn-in.
To answer your question, I would not pay for the upgrade for a daily driver because I don’t think it’s that dramatic of an improvement, break it in first than if you have some money to burn go for it.
The major benefit in going the Dinan route is that they usually have a warranty on their mods as long as an authorized dealer does the work.
I’ve heard good things about the Dinan Stage 1/2 packages for the 335i. I’ve been contemplating buying a used 335i and going the Dinan route myself.
I love the incessant demands that you learn how to drive first. Sometimes this place is just too funny.
Are cylinders 5&6 still overheating on that car w/o a vented hood?
I’d go for the reflash over the piggybacks if they carry a factory warranty. The problem with a piggyback is that you are forever at odds with your car’s factory ECU, especially when emissions controls kick in and mess up the stock maps that your piggyback relies upon as a baseline for modification. If performance is the only goal, piggybacks are fine, but if refinement is a requirement, go for the reflash with the factory warranty… and if it’s just a reflash, go ahead and get it even during break-in. It’s high boost modifications that you want to wait for a while before doing.
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I second the 35d. While the 35i is an electric engine with a lovely, linear big bore “feel” to it, the 35d has almost as much top end and twice as much torque everywhere else. It should satisfy your every need. Heck, even the 30d was a nice motor…
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Sticky tires? Heaven forfend! How are you going to do burnouts without wrecking the rear differential with those on? Save the money and spend it on an LSD, instead.
In this day and age of being able to reflash ecu’s, piggyback units shouldn’t even be considered. It’s a very rudimentary way of tuning and I liken it to using a Goldberg machine to perform a simple task.
On the other hand, any shop that agrees to do a reflash and not put your car on the dyno is one to be avoided. The biggest problem with reflashes is that some tuners will take a ‘one size fits all’ approach to reflashing. That reflash file might work great on their car, but there’s no way to guarantee that it’ll work great on your car. At best, a bad reflash result in a car that doesn’t perform to its potential. At worst, it’ll blow your engine up.
While that much is true, if the Dinan reflash is programmed for the stock engine and no other mods are present, then it should be okay.
Besides, simple breathing mods won’t really do anything for you on that engine, anyway, it being a MAP-referenced continuously-adjusting turbocharged engine.
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Hey, I’m happy with my piggyback. Rube Goldberg or not, these things actually work, provided you know what you’re doing.
If you are capable of, and desiring to
A) Do all your own repairs, or
B) Pay some one to do all your repairs.
Go ahead.
Having recently kept my first, and perhaps last BMW past warranty, I would recommend you buy a plane if you really want to go faster. It will cost more, but plane owners aren’t under any illusions about maintenance costs like I think you may be about your BMW. Also, right now is about the best time to buy a plane since the early eighties. Most planes over 4 years, and under 20 years are set to appreciate at a rate beyond the total cost to own and operate.
Lastly, your chances of hurting anyone other than yourself and your passengers are really small in a plane.
Landcrusher: I’m not sure how arrived at your assumption about my estimates of BMW maintenance costs. This will be my 5th BMW.
To those who tread an equally nebulous path to the assumption that seeking an ECU modification equates to poor driving skills, I have been driving cars on and off the track for over 30 years. I thank you for your concern.
Niky, quasimondo, TZ, Sajeev, dkferg, KnightRT, Bimmer, dolo54, chuckR, Justin Crenshaw, shiney2, maxofperry – thanks for the great feedback.
It seemed to me that my language was plain enough.
“…under any illusions about maintenance costs like I think you may be about your BMW.”
Note the word “may”. If your not, then it wouldn’t apply to you.
So, you are a guy who has experience racing around tracks, doesn’t race around streets, and is not concerned about warranty issues. Well, you are the one in 20 who would ask that question and have those attributes. The others would be best warned off of the danger and expense. Please pardon those who went with the 95% likely best answers.
Now, since you are only concerned with the wear in, the way you will be using this car it won’t matter a bit. The value of proper wear in is realized far down the road, when a guy like you will have already dumped the car, or done major work anyway. Many theories on this subject are still hanging around from years and years ago, and really don’t apply to modern engines. Frankly, they have become more religion than science.
I am no racing expert though, so my advice is likely worth what you are paying for it.
Enough from the learn to drive crowd, it is such a “I know better than you” comment and is irrelevant to the discussion.
As for warranty issues, if the mod does not cause the problem then the warranty is unaffected. that said some dealers are weasels. If you are going Dinan, have the dealer do the mod, makes it virtually impossible to deny a warranty claim if they installed the upgrade.
The flash increases boost pressure to gain power. Yes it will stress the engine and will affect fuel economy/pollution/engine life etc. but unless you are keeping for over 75k miles, I would worry about that issue.
I have my twin turbo Audi boosted and gained 1 sec 0-60, see the same crappy fuel economy and have no issues at the dealer. Well worth it imho.
I would wait 1k miles, have the oil changed and flash away.
Enough from the learn to drive crowd, it is such a “I know better than you” comment and is irrelevant to the discussion.
Thirty posts telling the author to learn how to drive, and at least one accusing him of inadequacy. How expected.
Unless it’s specifically for the track, a power upgrade for street use is worthless in a 335. Even on “challenging” roads, you’re going close enough to 100 in between trees that peak power will be the least of your problems. And this will likely for the street since these bmw’s tend to need other things like brakes/tires/diff for track use.
Look at it this way.
Nobody “needs” power. At all. It takes just eighty to one hundred horsepower to actually hit 100 miles an hour.
If we’re going by what’s “needed”, carguy should buy himself a Toyota Yaris and call it a day. You can maintain a pace between 60-80 mph on a twisty road in one of those. He’s not going to love doing it… it’s a POS unless you modify the hell out of it… but he doesn’t “need” anything more, right?
But car choices are never about what’s needed or what’s necessary. They’re about what the buyer wants. If the buyer wants more luxury and he can afford it, go ahead. If the buyer wants more power, then by all means, he should get more power. Yes, he should be able to handle that power… but that goes without saying. People who want more space and bigger cars should learn how to handle them, too. Heck, if he wants a stupidly expensive car that gets fifty miles to the gallon, that’s his prerogative. if carguy wants more “oomph”, he should be able to ask about getting more “oomph” without a zillion people telling him he doesn’t know how to drive (and if he didn’t, the power that the 335i already has would just scare him silly).
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But, as any enthusiast with a yen for turning wrenches or burning credit cards can tell you… “more” is never “enough”.
We can see that he’s looking for validation, but that doesn’t make the idea any better.
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But car choices are never about what’s needed or what’s necessary. They’re about what the buyer wants. If the buyer wants more luxury and he can afford it, go ahead.
A lot of people buy cars for the purposes of security eg. male enhancement. Not exactly unexpected commentary for the site’s namesake.
Doesn’t make it any worse. I’m intelligent enough to realize that the most practical solution to all transportation problems is living as close as possible to your workplace in a city with good public transportation. But I’m also honest enough to admit I’m a hypocrite, I don’t exactly care about what’s most practical, and I have a yen for speed.
On the automotive disastrous decision-making scale, a mild modification of a quick car with no warranty ramifications isn’t particularly high… and the only negative against it is the cost of the modification.
Dinan is a HUGE waste of money.
People are making 400+ horsepower (to the WHEELS, not bhp) with reflashes from the likes of Vishnu etc – for half the price.
We’re talking 115+ mph traps here, 1/4 in 12.5 or less, from a 3600 lb tank.
I have an ’08 335i coupe that I bought CPO with 13K. I thought about a Dinan Stage 2 but decided against it. The problem is that Dinan will only cover repairs to the engine during the first four years/50K miles of the manufacturer’s warranty and not during the additional 2 years/100K miles of the CPO warranty, so I would lose a good portion of the warranty. I love my 335i but I will never again own a BMW that is not under warranty (ask me about the “tranny slam” on the X5 4.4i.)
If you really want to mod then lease a 335i, add the Stage 2, cane it and walk away in three years. If you plan on keeping it longer (as I do mine) then the mod is not worth it. The 335i is a great car but it has a number of issues (fuel pump, wastegates, etc. that make is a real potential liability to own without a warranty.
Check out http://www.e90post.com and read about the guys with failed fuel pumps who had their warranty voided when BMW found their Vishnu and JB units. The manufacturer support that Dinan has makes a big difference in my view.
Now to your other question.
I doubt it makes much difference from an engineering perspective if you break in the engine first and wait to mod and you might get a better deal if you have the mod installed at the same time you buy the car. Bear in mind that either way you are reducing the life-expectancy of the engine.