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Cleveland Business News reports that ChryCo will cancel its contract with Cummins for diesel engines slated to power its Ram 1500 line of pickup trucks. This news comes as OEMs are abandoning diesel trucks in droves. Ford and GM have recently backed away from diesel light-duty trucks, while Toyota and Nissan have canceled heavy-duty diesel truck plans. “From a business case, I don’t think anyone can make one right now,” says IHS Global Insight’s Paul Lacy. “We are still negotiating with the new Chrysler group,” retorts Cummins spokesman Mark Land optimistically. “I don’t think they’re forever gone. I don’t think they’ll just throw all of this investment money away.” Right.
This is bad news. The diesel is a better option for towing motorhomes. Sure the fuel costs more per gallon but it is more efficient and the low end power can’t be beat.
Diesel would have been the answer for SUVs, instead we get electric transmissions from GM.
Talk about awful timing. Regular unleaded just recently passed up diesel in price-per-gallon (in Wisconsin, at least)
Here in MI, diesel has been cheaper for a couple months now. Even if it stays close to gasoline, there is more energy in a gallon of diesel versus gasoline.
Diesel in cars won’t work here in the US, because our excess diesel gets shipped to Europe in exchange for their excess gasoline. If the US starts using more diesel, it will throw off the balance that’s going. This is the reason the price of diesel spiked so much last year. To kill any advantage of buying a diesel car.
The problem isn’t the benefits of Diesel over Gas, its actually simple economics. American’s have no demand for a clean burning, more torque and gas mileage producing diesel engine. They just ain’t sexy and they normally cost three to four thousand more than the gas V8. No one in America thinks about the long term and as a result go with the cheaper option. Add to this, the dealers usually do not stock more than a couple diesels on the lot, fearing that they will never sell.
The real question is HOW QUICK CAN FORD GET IN THERE AND STEAL THEM!
The biggest problem with Ford Super Dutys has always been engines. While plenty strong, they have been lacking in reliability. Imagine a Ford F350 Powered By Cummins. Cummins is the only reason anyone even considered Dodge HD trucks.
I wonder if Ford has the money.
GS650G: the car companies would prefer you buy their 2500/3500 diesel trucks to tow your motorhome. That way you won’t factor into their CAFE numbers.
As much as I hate to admit it, it makes sense. It would have possibly added a few 1500 sales at the expense of some 2500 sales for the few folks that just had to have a diesel but didn’t really need the *big* truck.
What kericf said.
Every truck bubba here dreams of merging a Ford F series with the Cummins diesel.
Still, doesn’t appear that the suits think there’s an economically viable market for such a creature.
Ford Should get in bed with Cummins, Heck they already use the 4 banger in the 4 Door Rangers they sell in South America.
Fleet Sales comes to mind, when thinking where to market these trucks, I know the construction contractors around my neck of the woods love such a truck.
Well, we’ll always have Mahindra.
–chuck
“HOW QUICK CAN FORD GET IN THERE AND STEAL THEM!”
Ford put its plans to introduce a diesel powered F150 on ice just a few months ago.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/06/despite-lower-diesel-prices-ford-still-in-wait-and-see-mode-for-diesel-f-150.html
Ford recently announced the end of its long association with Navistar for Super Duty diesel engines. Ford has an in-house big diesel V-8 coming out for future Super Duty use.
As far as I can tell, Cummins will continue making diesel engines for Dodge’s 3/4 ton and larger trucks. The deal which was canceled was for a smaller engine to power the 1/2 ton trucks.
The ram in the picture is Right Hand Drive! Where do they sell RHD Rams?
Hold the on guys, this is just for the new V6 Cummins that Chrysler was planning to put in the Ram 1500. The Cummins B-Series that they use in the Ram 2500 and 3500 are still being made.
When you see the amount of claptrap (+++ cost — reliability) that has to be added to these diesels to meet the 2010 US regs, you’ll understand why the business case doesn’t work well. They either need monstrous amounts of egr (which kills efficiency) or urea injection (user inconvenience and complexity).
Like the 1980s for gas engines, it’s gonna take some technology growth (aka more time) to make diesels practical again.
yep, another advantage for Mahindra Mahindra.
Around Toronto diesel sells for a while now 15% cheaper then gas. So, it would make sense to by a diesel vehicle over gas. And I’ve seen plenty of GL- and M-Class Mercs with Blutec.
For a logical reason why they would stop buying Cummins
Doesn’t FIAT make diesel engines?
While I am sure Fiat makes diesels, they don’t make an engine suitable for a pickup truck. Euro car diesels don’t have enough power to handle the towing/hauling duties a pickup owner would have, and (AFAIK) Fiat doesn’t make a light duty pickup or an SUV that fits the same niche as the Ram 1500.
This only pertains to the small diesel slated for the 1500-series trucks, not the larger inline-6 diesels in the larger trucks. Chrysler had already postponed the small V6 diesel. It was reported here on TTAC ages ago. I suspected cancellation was coming eventually. Too bad, I was rooting for this to make it to market and be as reliable as my Cummins 5.9L has been.
@Runfromcheney: I suspect that the picture used for this article was horizontally mirrored so the truck was driving from right to left.
@charly: Does Fiat manufacture their own diesels or buy from someone else? Do you think they have one that would be suitable for a fullsize pickup truck?
I could swear they make light trucks akin to pickups in the US. The also own Iveco which sells real trucks.
Are these big enough
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Ducato#Engines_third_generation
and the commercial vehicle division of FIAT (not Iveco)
http://www.fiatprofessional.co.uk/cgi-bin/lcv.dll/LCV_UK/home.jsp
My guess is that Chrysler is just negotiating a new contract that will gaurantee a lower volume than previously.
However, the current 6.7L diesel that currently powers the 2500 and 3500 was a joint venture between cummins and FIAT. And from what I have been told FIAT did almost all of the engineering and development work so maybe the don’t think it is worthwhile to pay Cummins for their name.
However, the current 6.7L diesel that currently powers the 2500 and 3500 was a joint venture between cummins and FIAT.
Where did you get this info? They had a joint venture, but AFAIK it had nothing to do with the 6.7.
Charly – In response to ‘are they big enough’ well, yes, and no. Are they big enough to get the job done for at least 80% of what people buy 1/2 ton class pickups for? Yes. Are they powerful enough to warrant the extra cost for a diesel in the US market? No.
The biggest engine there is 3.0 liters and 155 horsepower, which, since I can’t find any exact torque figures, I am going to guess puts out around 300 lbs/ft just from what I know about diesels, maybe less, maybe more. In any case, that is considerably less power, but torque and hp, than the gas engine options availible on the current Ram.
An engine designed for a commercial van, which is going to be doing mostly urban and suburban delivery, very rarely towing, and doesn’t need to have performance above ‘acceptable for the job’ can sacrifice a lot more for economy, and in fact should, than an engine designed for a truck that needs to be able to tow at least several times its own weight and needs to have enough power to attract non-commercial buyers can.
If a diesel is going to be offered and be successful in the mainstream US pickup market it needs to produce considerably more torque than any of the availible gas engines. Considering each of the HD truck engines from the D3 right now hover around 350hp and 650 lbs/ft of torque, and the most powerful gas engines are around mid 400 range in both, a light truck diesel should hit at least 300hp and 500 lbs/ft for it to be attractive.
Fiat’s Iveco division certainly could make something suitable to replace the Cummins 6.7l. The Cummins-Dodge turbo-diesel started life powering industrial and marine equipment, just like some of the engines Iveco sells.
Interestingly enough, Cummins and Fiat-Iveco/CaseNewHolland just unwound their European engine joint venture last year and Fiat bought 100% of the European portion of that venture. Many North Americans don’t know that Fiat is a much bigger enterprise than just the Fiat car division.
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2008/07/18/afx5229498.html
For documentation of the roots of that joint venture, look at this story from 1996: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1996_May_1/ai_18239447/ Indeed it does seem that much of the technology which ended up in the Cummins-Dodge engine coincided with that joint venture.
The diesel-business realignment is happening in more than the truck-biz. One example is Honda, which was all hot for diesels, and that appears over now.
I think diesel is cheaper than regular right now because of a supply glut. I have a feeling the supply glut was created by a perverse two-step:
1. Lots of truck buyers bought diesel trucks because of the “big-man-factor” (Howie Long can’t call me a wimp!), but like most truck buyers over the past decade wanted to commute with the things.
2. Financial implosion and fuel costs not only dried up the market for new trucks of any kind, but also made a lot of people park their diesel hog in the garage and bust the Yaris out of the breadbox for commuting.
Add in the depressed shipping business with many an idle tractor-trailer, and you get a massive supply of diesel with no one to burn it up. I am guessing we’ve got six months of cheap diesel vis-a-vis petrol and then its back to the standard rip-off ratio you expect with the fuel, at least in the states.
It is all about economics as usual. First of all, for like 90% of all diesel customers, there is absolutely no benefit from the diesel. The extra cost of the diesel package will never be recovered with less fuel consumed. On a Ram 2500 it was around $8,000 more for the diesel. You will never save that back and few ever hauled anything other then the owner’s beer belly.
I worked for Chrysler for years and the profit wasn’t in the Cummins units because the Cummins cost much more to install than the 5.7. It was more of an image thing. Chrysler basically bought complete motors and installed them and paid a premium for them.
That said, the Cummins, especially the old noisy 5.9 was absolutely bullet proof.
That said, the Cummins, especially the old noisy 5.9 was absolutely bullet proof.
I recently talked to someone that had over 600,000mi on his ’96 Cummins with no internal engine repairs ever required.
…and that’s why I’m a diesel fan.
mofretti :
June 18th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
My guess is that Chrysler is just negotiating a new contract that will gaurantee a lower volume than previously.
I agree. They’re just using the bankruptcy to void the old contract and negotiate a better deal on the engines.
and that’s why I’m a diesel fan.
The later ones, unfortunately, especially the ones made in Mexico, were not as good.
@Canucknucklehead: In what year did they start building them in Mexico? I didn’t know that was a factor.
There was one particular casting that had a problem and the block would crack and leak oil. I read that the 24-valve engines starting in 1998.5 weren’t as good because the vane-style injection pump didn’t last, and the even newer “quiet” engines (2003?) can have problems due to dirty fuel clogging the tiny openings in the injectors. The new injectors are also non-rebuildable.
As another commenter posted, diesels today are like gas engines in the mid 70s and early 80s. They slapped-on electronics and pollution control systems to meet the new emissions regs, and it will take a generation to build the reliability back into them. I’ve talked to about a half-dozen people that had a Cummins 12-valve but since traded-up to a newer model. They all told me it was the most relible truck they ever owned and wished they still had it.
If I was going to buy a diesel RAM, I wouldn’t go with a 1500, but go with a 2500/3500, which is fun to drive!